Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fixer 07-26-07, 11:41 AM	On another forum a debate came up about whether or not a 20th level monk, who happened to be undead, could be turned. The data from the SRD is as follows: From the 20th level monk entry, part of note in bold. Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type. Description of Turn Undead, important part in bold: Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead). Description of Supernatural Abilities, important part in bold: Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. The argument is that because turning undead is a magical effect and requires the target to be considered undead for it to resolve completely, and because Perfect Self states that the monk is considered to be an outsider for the resolution of all magical effects, it is not undead with regards to turning undead. It was demonstrated in a D&D article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060725a) that any undead creature that was also a 20th level monk would have the Undead (augmented outsider, native) type and subtypes. Because it is not officially documented, however, this argument wasn't accepted. Is there anywhere in any of the books/adventures/whatever that IS official that states that a 20th level monk is not immune to turning? Thank you.
Mai_ariti 07-26-07, 12:09 PM	Savage Species has a table that lists what types can be changed into other types, a Magical Beast cannot become an Animal, for example. Undead and Outsider are both at the top of the table in the 'cannot be changed' section. This, according to SS, means that the 20th level Undead Monk cannot become an outsider. SS does say however, that DMs can change this. The Monk would retain all Undead traits, including the vulnerability to turning.
Fixer 07-26-07, 12:18 PM	Because Savage Species is sort of D&D 3.25, they weren't accepting the hierarchy argument. I tried that one. Looking more for official creature references. Thank you, though. :)
Zherog 07-26-07, 12:22 PM	Savage Species has a table that lists what types can be changed into other types, a Magical Beast cannot become an Animal, for example. Undead and Outsider are both at the top of the table in the 'cannot be changed' section. This, according to SS, means that the 20th level Undead Monk cannot become an outsider. SS does say however, that DMs can change this. The Monk would retain all Undead traits, including the vulnerability to turning. Note, though, that the monk's ability does not change the creature's type to outsider; it just says to treat the creature as an outsider when determining the results of spells and magical effects.
Kursk 07-26-07, 12:30 PM	Note, though, that the monk's ability does not change the creature's type to outsider; it just says to treat the creature as an outsider when determining the results of spells and magical effects. Ergo, the turning of undead who happen to be outsiders...
Witch 07-26-07, 12:32 PM	Frankly, discarding the type pyramid is just a bad idea. Savage Species is the primary source regarding these kind of questions, and undead can simply not become outsiders, just as outsiders cannot become undead.
SlanderPanic 07-26-07, 12:39 PM	http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/Slanderpanic/77X3KPAIWSGOAGYG3Y2QZLQ46YORRGGD.png That's all I had to contribute, really.
Fixer 07-26-07, 12:40 PM	(or whatever the monk’s creature type was) This kind of nerfed that one, but thanks. No references? The problem is 100% on the description of the Perfect Self ability. Is there errata or something on it?
Zherog 07-26-07, 12:46 PM	Frankly, discarding the type pyramid is just a bad idea. Savage Species is the primary source regarding these kind of questions, and undead can simply not become outsiders, just as outsiders cannot become undead. I agree that undead cannot become outsiders. But that's not the case here - the monk is not changing type; he/she/it is simply treated as a different type for the purpose of resolving spells and magical effects.
Iliyan 07-26-07, 07:30 PM	btw, a outsider CAN become a undead, just look at Orcus ( you know, the demon prince who died and arose as Tenebrous(just a fake name at that time) the undead demon...) as for me, id say that any undead which also has 20 levels of monk in it, should definetly be immune to turning, or should be HIGHLY resistant to it( thats what house rules are for no?) and lets not forget the fact that he has minimum 20HD from monk levels which in itself is quite some barrier to break