Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alac Luin 03-14-06, 06:59 PM	I'm wondering what people feel about the difference between the 2ed specialty priest option compared to the 3.X cleric. I'll start with a few of my opinions. In 2ed, the cleric was restricted to Bludgeoning weapons. This made no sense for say a deity of archery, but this is the way it was. The specialty priest was allowed to use the deities weapons. This was great for the time. Now, there is no restriction to a clerics weapon, as long as proper feat is taken were necessary. This has made this aspect of the SP obsolete, as the restriction does not exist any more. Spheres of control- a great way to individualize deities/priesthoods. But in actual game play, I felt it could be a liability. A cleric is the party healer (not that I think they are limited to this role). I would have almost never even thought of selecting a deity if they did not grant at least a minor access to the healing sphere. The 3.X cleric allows me to pick any deity I want without thought. Ability score prerequisites- Many of the SPs had additional ability scores one had to meet to become a SP. This wasn't in issue in games I played, my groups tended to have some high stats, the way we rolled almost guaranteed we never had any stat below 12, and we can arrange them as we saw fit. With a point buy system (which I now like allot) these ability scores can be very hard to achieve. The 3.X system does it's part to avoid this type of power gaming. Granted abilities- I've recently been in a discussion about the granted abilities of the FR deity Talos. The other person was complaining that the Talos SP had the ability to cast lightning bolt and create earthquakes. IMO, these abilities are simulated in 3.X better by the Domain spells call lightning (from a realms' domain) and earthquake. In my opinion, the domain abilities and spells replace the SP granted abilities. Also, a player can choose different domains, in essence gaining different granted abilities. Granted, not every 2ed SP is recreated perfectly. But for the most part, the 3.X version allows much more flexibility. I wish to hear other's opinions on this. I didn't feel I should ask for opinions if I didn't give mine.
legowarrior 03-14-06, 07:56 PM	I believe the one thing I do miss more then anything is the spheres. It had some ingrained advantage, like standard spells for all classes. You didn't need a spell list for ranger or paladin, they just choice spells from spheres they could get. Another major advantage was that the cleric didn't become become more powerful as you add books to the campaign. Manyh books had there own spheres, which were all alone, so if you really wanted to access them, you had to choice that sphere. Third advantage - you had abilities for each priest, but I guess you can still do that, but you could just add or subtract spheres, you didn't have to go through entire lists of spells just to make a weaker spell list so that you can get some cool abilities. As an aside, you didn't have to worry about not being support when the next book comes in. The books supported spheres, not classes, so you could just see what spheres you had, and what the book gave to the spheres in general. I hope that set out a couple of good reasons why I support a return of spheres.
Alac Luin 03-15-06, 11:44 AM	I guess that was a good point about spheres, having not thought about it in those terms before. I may still be against spheres (reason in first post, the healing thing). I appreciate the input. :)
Tony Vargas 03-15-06, 03:23 PM	I have to admit that I found the 2E 'sphere' concept superior to the 3E 'domain.' Domains are just a little bit of gravy, they add a bit to individualize the cleric choosing them, but they leave every Cleric with vastly similar spell lists (that only expand as you add non-core material). Makes every cleric similar in utility. Spheres let you customize a priesthood - and, I'm really talking about CPH Priests, rather than the 'Speciality' priests, since they were much better balanced - trading combat ability, granted powers and number of domains around to create something balanced and unique. A choice of Domains just doesn't do it, and it leaves the Cleric class potentially overpowered due to it's huge spell list. IMHO, the CPH was one of the few things 2E did 'right.'
Ranger REG 03-16-06, 04:05 AM	Meh. Is having a universal cleric spell list too vanilla? I mean if that is the case, why not swap the spell list for another domain or two? Or at least allow them to pray for more domain spells in place of their regular cleric spell level slots?
Mouseferatu 03-16-06, 04:17 AM	I've actually felt the same way for a while. Not that I think the 3E cleric is bad--it's one of my favorite classes--but I'd like the option of having a more deity-specific set of spells, like the 2E priest. As such, a little while back, I published a PDF product (not available in hardcopy, I'm afraid) through my Lion's Den imprint that created a 3.5-variant on the 2E concepts. It's called The Priest of the Celestial Spheres. http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4882 (Note to Mods: I don't think this qualifies as a violation of the "Don't advertise a business site" rule, since I'm pointing to a specific, topic-related product, not hyping the site in particular. But if I'm wrong, just let me know, and I'll remove the post.)
babysamurai 03-16-06, 07:18 AM	I felt the 2nd editon Specialty Priest-thing got a little out of hand...kind of like Prestige Classes have become. Also, I much prefer the old school "Cleric" title than "Priest of X".
Tony Vargas 03-16-06, 03:45 PM	I felt the 2nd editon Specialty Priest-thing got a little out of hand...kind of like Prestige Classes have become. IIRC, there was a big difference between the 'Speciality Priest' (which was in Legends & Lore or whatever it was called) and the Complete Priest Handbook version. The latter was balanced - to get more spheres or better granted powers you gave up combat ability. The former was arbitrary and, yes, got completely out of hand.
StevenO 03-16-06, 08:19 PM	I generally prefer how 3.x handles specialities when compared to 2ed. I feel domain spells and abilities generally do a good job matching most granted powers without going to the extreme power some specialties did. If a DM feels this is still too general the domain spells could be used in regular slots but the normal spell list could be altered. The more extreme specialty priests can/should be converted the PrCs where they can be better adressed.
legowarrior 03-16-06, 10:17 PM	But the thing about sphere's was it made it much easier to match and patch priests just by adding how spell lists, instead of changing spells known on an individual level. Also, the Sphere's covered one big complaint about clerics. Every book makes them more powerful simple because it automatically adds more spells to their list. With sphere's you usually didn't get any extra spells to a known sphere, but a whole knew sphere, by itself. You wanted the sphere, you had to sacrifice something. And of cours, I believe it lent more ideal to the class. To clerics, one evil, one good, are almost practically the same when it comes to spells. I found that was kind of off. Oh, and with limited spheres, you kinda nerf the cleric, which isn't always a bad thing.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-16-06, 10:26 PM	The problems I had with spheres: They weren't balanced with each other. Not only were some spheres really good (war), but some deities (Mystra) got a really large number of spheres. At least with domains, this isn't a big deal. So what if Mystra or some other uber-deity has 50 available domains? The PC can't have more than two (using core rules), and each domain is (relatively) balanced within themselves. Spheres might be balanced if some spells are available to all clerics and an actual effort is made to ensure each sphere is both balanced and fun. (This effort was not made in 2e.)
Wulfgar 03-16-06, 10:52 PM	I prefer 2e's Spheres and Granted Powers -- I felt that it made the drab Cleric infinitely customizable. Also, by allowing different weapons and armor for the SPs of each Deity, the flavor elements of the religons were significantly enhanced. God of Peace? No weapons (well, nets, lassos, bolas, quarterstaff, etc, but no serious damaging weapons -- all weapons must be wielded so as to cause subdual damage only); padded or no armor, but Major access to all sorts of charms, protection, healing and non-violent restraining spells, with Turn Undead, Lay On Hands and Soothing Word as Granted Powers. Healing is for everyone, Man, like, it's a Natural Right! God of War? Access to proficiency with all weapons, all shields and armor and proficiency with siege engines. Major access to combat, defensive, war and healing spells, with Turn Undead (miserable evil clerics and necromantoc wizards use unclean undead against God's True Soldiers!) and Inspire Berserker Rage (in followeres/associates) as granted powers. Healing spells would be used on soldiers first, combat classes (Fellow Warpriests, Fighters, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians) second, other clerics & druids third, rogues and wizards last. God of Merchants? Love? Barbarian horse-nomads? The City Of Gilforfarthen? All could be modeled fairly easily, and the only limits within the rule was the imagination of the DM (and the players).
Tony Vargas 03-17-06, 12:49 PM	The problems I had with spheres:They weren't balanced with each other. Not only were some spheres really good (war), but some deities (Mystra) got a really large number of spheres. Yeah, the spheres weren't too well balanced against eachother - some had a lot more spells, some had more desireable spells. How many the diety might offer was a flaw of the L&L speciality priest, in the CPH, priesthoods got a number of spheres based on the combat abilities and granted powers, so there was a hint of balance there. Spheres might be balanced if some spells are available to all clerics and an actual effort is made to ensure each sphere is both balanced and fun. Personally, at the time, I re-jiggered the sphere lists for balance (including more interesting or desireable spells in the smaller spheres, for instance, and breaking up some of the biggest spheres into sub-spheres), but also just took into account how 'good' spheres a given priesthood had access to were when creating that priesthood.
jamesnero 03-17-06, 04:23 PM	What if rather than being able to spontaneously cast cure and inflcit spells clerics could spontaneously cast thier domain spells???? That would allow for a diversity among clerics even clerics of the same deity. A cleric of pelor who grabbed the sun and healing domains is different from a cleric of pelr with the protection and good domains.
Alac Luin 03-17-06, 06:06 PM	Still watching this thread :) What if rather than being able to spontaneously cast cure and inflcit spells clerics could spontaneously cast thier domain spells???? Thats sort of an intresting idea. A few issues with that, many of the domain spells are powerful for a cleric. Not saying a bad idea, it is an intresting idea though. on another thought I've seen here, I liked the Specialty priests in the Priest's Handbook. But some of the other's I do believe were overpowered. Heck, I had a Specialty Priest of Eilistraee who had a good selection of spheres, ability to turn undead, little restriction on arms and armor, and the 4th level granted power to cast Magic Missle twice a day, four missles each time. A 4th level priest with Magic Missle, nice. I did feel guilty about this, a little :)
DrakaraGM 03-17-06, 07:33 PM	The ability to spontaneous cast domain spells as well as -- or instead of -- cure/inflict spells, is suggested as an option in Unearthed Arcana, and the book also goes into some of the advantages and disadvantages of that. They suggest that if you take away the spontaneous cure/inflict, that Healing domain in particular becomes much more important -- and that to maintain the potential for healers in all good priesthoods you might want to make Healing domain an option for more Good deities. Conversely, if you let clerics keep normal spontaneous cures/inflicts as well as give them domain casting spontaneously, the Healing domain becomes much less useful. (You want to take that when it means you only have 2 choices of spells per level to channel instead of 3? Not likely!) At the same time the cleric gains power -- which could be a bit of a problem, it isn't like they lack power now. :-) But they do suggest that if you give them spontaneous domain spell casting then they should not also prepare domain spells. And of course if a cleric gets mroe domains due to PrCs or whatever, even more power... I might suggest a slight alteration to their ideas, as follows. Let a cleric keep his +1 domain spell at each level. Let a cleric prepare, in his domain slot, either one of his regular domain spells OR a cure or inflict spell which he could previously have cast spontaneously -- he doesn't have that domain, but he has the option to prepare the specific spells at the appropriate levels. For 0th level spells, the cleric retains the ability to spontaneously cast the 1-point cure or inflict spells normally. For all higher level spells, instead of spontaneously casting cures or inflicts, the cleric may spontaneously cast the spell he prepared in his domain slot by losing a regular spell of that level or higher. So for a cleric who wanted to be an all-out healer, in general or on a given day, with or without the Healing domain, he could prepare cure spells in several domain spell slots. This is a bit LESS powerful than the normal cleric, in terms of options -- because the character must prepare healing spells in order to have them available to cast spontaneously, while a regular cleric would have plenty of that ability plus some domain spells. However, it does have compensating advantages. At some levels, a cleric may not care to prepare either of the domain spells anyway, and this lets him prepare a cure or inflict spell instead. In addition, a cleric seldom needs to cast ALL his spells as healing during a regular expedition (though the 'day after' healing frenzy does happen on occasion), so it may be quite sufficient to prepare one or two cure spells and the rest as more interesting domain spells. The character does then have the ability to select his favorite domain spells from each domain and prepare them. After casting them from the domain slots normally, if he wants to cast them again he can do so spontaneously. BUT because he has to select one spell at each level, still only gets one spell per level which he can spontaneously cast. (Note that he can prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot -- so for example if he wanted to have access to both his 1st level domain spells and had the ability to cast 2nd level spells he could potentially prepare a 1st level domain spell in each slot.) I think this gives the cleric some extra flexibility, while at the same time balancing it with some tougher choices -- how many cure spells and at what levels to prepare them, vs how many other domain spells at what levels to provide special capabilities. It especially enables multiple casting of spells that are on a domain list but not the regular cleric list, but in return the cleric may find he hasn't prepared enough healing after all. Whether the cleric is slightly stronger or slightly weaker with this option is a good question -- I think it probably depends on the type of cleric you want to have... In my campaigns I bump up the NPC classes a little -- not enough to let them compete with PC classes, but a little -- and one thing I do is give the Adept a single domain, +1 spell per day at each level 1st and up where they get 0 or more spells per day, so they focus one domain spell per level -- but more importantly they can also cast domain spells spontaneously by channeling a normally prepared adept spell into them, just as a regular cleric can channel a non-domain spell into a cure or inflict spell. So adepts (used often for humanoids, and for hedge-witches, village healers and so on) become known according to what they can do, a healer has the Healing domain, a fire adept has the Fire domain, and so on. Since adepts get so few spells normally and higher level spells slowly the prepared domain spells are not a problem (and serve as a reminder to me as to what the NPC can cast more of if he wants), their list is limited enough that a domain often expands their repertoire in a useful manner even for domains many clerics might scoff at, but they still don't threaten a cleric's mastery of divine magic. As for clerics, I do modify them based on the deity served. I take away medium and heavy armor and shield proficiency, and replace those with a single bonus feat related to the deity served (home brew pantheon). Clerics who multiclass as fighters or other martial classes can, of course, regain some or all of those proficiencies. My version is probably slightly more powerful than regular clerics but it depends on the bonus feats, one deity may gives its devoted servants Improved Initiative while another might merely give Endurance or whatever. If the character already has the bonus feat when gaining his first level of cleric, then he can select either True Believer or Skill Focus in any one cleric class skill -- he cannot select any other feat he may qualify for. (And yes, IMC clerics must select a specific deity (or deity equivalent as defined by me) and will have a set of ~four domains to choose from, so cannot take any two domains of their choice, unless they can find a deity to worship that provides both of course.) But I am happy enough with that as deity-specific flavor, I keep the regular spontaneous cures/inflicts and regular domain spell prep -- only adepts get to spontaneously cast domain spells. Though I thought about it a bit... :-)
Ranger REG 03-18-06, 03:01 AM	What if rather than being able to spontaneously cast cure and inflcit spells clerics could spontaneously cast thier domain spells???? That would allow for a diversity among clerics even clerics of the same deity. A cleric of pelor who grabbed the sun and healing domains is different from a cleric of pelr with the protection and good domains. You want to give that an automatic granted benefit -- for all the spells of the cleric's selected domains (plural) -- or introduce a new Domain Focus (or somesuch named) feat?
Stuntman 03-18-06, 02:14 PM	The problem I have with the 2E CPH specialty priests is that not all of them have healing spells. Let's face it. The cleric is expected be the primary healer of the party. The 2E spheres do give more flexibility than the 3E domains. I like the variety in the types of specialty priests available. They were cool. However, I think that the complexity of the different types of priests is not so necessary. The 3E domains enable the clerics to take on the primary role as a healer and add some bit of flavour to make different clerics a little different. The domain spell slot is important in this aspect in that it enforces the use the domain spells. The spontaneous casting is also important for the cleric's role as a healer in non-evil parties. Evil clerics are a bit weaker in that they cannot spontaneously cast cure spells, but they still have access to them. I don't buy the fact that different clerics are pretty much the same. You could say that about practically every class. You can customise the cleric like any other character. So what if a good cleric and evil cleric have access to the same spells? A good druid and evil druid do as well. The same for wizard, sorcerer, bard, etc. A good fighter has access to the same weapons as an evil fighter. It's how you use them that count.
Alac Luin 03-18-06, 04:39 PM	The problem I have with the 2E CPH specialty priests is that not all of them have healing spells. Let's face it. The cleric is expected be the primary healer of the party. That is my feeling also. :) I don't buy the fact that different clerics are pretty much the same. You could say that about practically every class. You can customise the cleric like any other character. So what if a good cleric and evil cleric have access to the same spells? A good druid and evil druid do as well. The same for wizard, sorcerer, bard, etc. A good fighter has access to the same weapons as an evil fighter. It's how you use them that count. I've heard the same argument and have the same exact feeling about it. "A cleric of X and a cleric of Z are mechanically the same" :P So is a Fighter from the the city watch with weapon focus (long sword) and the Fighter from Big Bad Evil Organization with weapon focus (long sword). Both characters can be further customized by other feats and the silly thing called "role playing" your character.