Post/Author/DateTime	Post
balu000 08-03-06, 05:54 AM	Hi! We used to play in 4 and 5 player party last year, but due to some conflicts atm we are limited to 3 players and a dm. I know it's hard to fill the tasks with 3 characters, and I would appreciate any advices ;) The current lineup would be: (good party) Druid - mainly battlefield control via summoning, also main dmg dealer Cleric - tank, healer, few buffing, "official" party face Beguiler - social interactions, "shadow" party face, trapfinding, some spellcasting Why I chose these classes is their versatility. Each can react according to the scenario, not a fixed tactic like dwarven defender+wizard.. If anyone comes up with a better party (with reasoning), plz don't be afraid to post it :P
armnaxis 08-03-06, 08:27 AM	The lineup looks good, Druid AND Cleric ist very strong. Beguilers are very potent as well. But, you lack travel, so instead of a Beguiler, consider an Artificer from the Eberron Campaing setting. Deals with traps and such, has good enhancing "magic", and can make anything you may ever need - including scrolls of any spell. If so, let the cleric be the "face" as he will probably have a decent charisma and has diplomacy on his class skill list.
balu000 08-03-06, 08:37 AM	good idea, thx, though i have to ask DM if he allows Eberron stuff in FR.. If yes, it'd be great for sure ;) Any other ideas?
DwarfPcfan 08-03-06, 09:08 AM	Your Party is as solid as could expect butfrom my own experience, I'd go with something a little different. Here's what I propose and why 1 Paladin ( Mechanically, he should be human for the extra feat but it's not an obligation) 1 Cleric with Magic and Time domains and the sponteaneous domain casting variant from PhB II ( prefered race would be dwarf or gnome, dwarf would be the best) 1 Artificer ( gnome all the way) Here's why, your group is severily limited wich means, yes a cleric and a druid together work well. But what my group hands in is a lack of weaknesses first. The paladin if built properly ( going for smitting and divine feats rather then mounted combat and taking the charging smite variant from PHB II, winter's champion feat from frostburn a must) can be devasting in combat without the need to waste time on buffering as much as a cleric, can't be duped or affected by magic easily thanks to the ever godly divine grace and he can support the party's healing role nicely if asked. The Cleric comes into his own thanks to an abuse of his domains. Time domain gives access to haste, slow, mass haste and eventually time stop. He can fill up on healing spells and damage dealing spells then wap then all as need be when the time comes ( sorry about the pun). and let's not forget that a well used magic domain can send enemy spellcasters crying for their mommies. Plus lets not forget divine metamagic (persistent spell) with haste is just evil. The reason we want him to be a dwarf is for all the bonuses to keep him alive as long as possible and the con bonus to keep concentration as high as possible. The charisma penalty is exxentially non-existent since this guy does not turn undead on a daily basis, he uses turning checks for feats ( wich he does'nt need that many) and even with a 13 charisma he'll be just fine, thanks to extra turning and cloaks of charisma) The artificer takes care of all the rogue problems. Being an artifer, he can load up on wands to provide blasting and utility, create gear for the party. As an artificer, he also fonctions as a buffer as easily as a cleric meanin the cleric can concentrate on counter spells, blasting and healing, removing the need for buffering on his part. Plus in a sinch, he's not bad in a fight thanks to decent proficiencies, buffering and medium combat abilities. Gnome is best race because he get's all the benefits of con, small size, racial bonuses to artficer skills without suffering any penalty to the prime abilities of artificers. This party is a definite killer
balu000 08-03-06, 10:11 AM	ok, so you both agree that artificer is a must, and it pwns the beguiler. as i told this depends on the dm, whether if he allows it. paladin/cleric instead of druid/cleric; well, that depends on the playstyle. You say your group lacks weaknesses. Imho every 3player group must have weaknesses :P The main difference is in the tank role in the two lineups. Definitely paladin is a better tank, but that sacrifices the versatility in the party. Sometimes a hold person is a better option combined with summon nature's ally than a sword and hold person. Still, it is a good idea. will negotiate with others, its not me who will decide alone ofc ;) Btw IF I want the cleric to tank, what domains/weapons/feats/prcs(max one prc) should he chose? (in Forgotten Realms!) Oh, and yes, he is dwarf probably.
Fallenangel359 08-03-06, 11:28 AM	The one downside of artificers is that it takes time to make stuff... Artificers have ways of making massive amounts of money... it just takes time... They also have ways to make wonderful items... Somebody figured out a way to do like 96d6 damage to a 20 foot blast radius, in 1 round, with 3 reflex saves to bypass, with an artificer... can't remember where it is
highbulp 08-03-06, 11:40 AM	Are you playing a pre-written adventure? Or is your DM kind of lame? Because if not, then there are absolutely no requirements on what classes you put in a party. Any DM worth his books should be able to run an adventure which is built around the party. No warriors in your group? Then your adventures don't have a lot of straight combat--more sneaking and trying to talk your way past encounters. No wizards? Then your adventures don't require an artillery. No clerics? Again, slow down on the combat (no healing) or just give the party generally more time to rest (maybe 2 or 3 encounters a day rather than 4). No rogue? Then don't have a lot of traps to disarm or locks to pick: more straight-forward adventuring. I dislike the philosophy that a party needs to have all it's bases covered. A PARTY DOES NOT NEED ONE OF EVERY CLASS. My favorite games have been ones without a particular niche. It makes the game so much more interesting when you need to bypass a trap or a lock without a rogue, or get past a monster without a fighter. Thus I'd suggest everyone pick a character they want to play. Don't worry about filling roles, or needing to be very powerful, or needing stuff from Eberron if you're in FR. Just come up with a character that you believe is fun. Then once you have 3 characters, look at the party make-up and figure out what kind of adventures the group would go on. Then do that. The only reason you'd need to cover a certain range of abilities is if you're running a pre-written adventure that assumes you have those abilities.
gamertall 08-03-06, 03:50 PM	If I remember seeing correctly, your campaign is set in the Forgotten Realms? If that is so, the your current party mix is ok. If you (or others) have not thought about thise, then hear are some points to remember. While your party is missing a dedicated warrior-type, both the Cleric and the Druid can fill this role together, and neither should try to tackle the role alone. The Druid may want to focus on this role more than the Cleric, due to the Animal Companion that can help the Druid flank in combat. Plus, if the Druid gets high enough in level, he will soon be able to Wild Shape, which could make him a huge asset in melee combat. Ranged combat should fall mostly on the Beguiler. Another aspect, and probably the most important, is healing. Both the Druid and the Cleric should max out their respective ranks in the Heal skill. Those two classes can rely on each other to provide alot of healing, especially since both of them should be the primary mele combatants. The last aspect to consider is NPC interaction. This should be the Beguiler's main focus, other than being the Rogue in the party. The Cleric should also max out his skill ranks in this skill as well. Not only as a possible back up to the Beguiler, but in some situations, it may end up being better for the Cleric to speak than the Beguiler. Another minor point is for the Cleric (if he can) to take cross-class ranks in Search to help the Beguiler to search for traps. This can be especially useful at higher levels when the Cleric can memorize the Find Traps spell. If your party needs to create its own magic items, then all three of the party members should share and overlap where they can; Scrolls, Potions, wondrous Items. I would recommend just buying what you need in regards to magic, rather than creating it. After thoughts on other areas of interest may include reminding the Druid that it is up to him to keep the party alive in the outdoors. I would recommend the Track feat for the Druid early on. The Cleric needs to turn undead and do it well. Have the Cleric take Extra Turning, Empowered Turning, or Quickened Turning as soon as he can. And the Beguiler needs to find and disarm traps, and do it well. Really take a look at skill boosting feats for the Beguiler. Take advantage of skill synergy bonuses whenever possible. Due to the fact that there is no major muscle in the party, you guys might want to do alot of talking and investigating during your adventures. That way you can all adequately prepare for what you may go up against. And if the Beguiler really has to get into combat, then think about running away after a couple of rounds of that.
balu000 08-03-06, 08:08 PM	Thx for the replies. No, it's not a pre-written adventure, but we really want to cover all fields as much as possible, this was the problem with the last party that we didnt plan in advance our characters together, and the result was a total mess :P gamertall: True, both Clr and Dru we be in hand-to-hand combat, as soon as Dru will become lvl6 (due to 1 monk lvl) Till that point, cleric has to tank alone (with summons and animal companion ofc ;)) Healing skills i will not max, as potions/spell are much better solutions for this. Totally agree with two party faces, one shady, one official ;) Finding traps is the task of a beguiler for sure, cleric with low int and cross-class search is very ineffective, thus i'd rather pump up some knowledge i otherwise lack. Creating magic items will not be our task, im sure about this :P For feat selection: Track is a maybe fopr the dru, as i need many other feats, but as you said survival is a must skill. Cleric will probably go the tank route, thus needs spells like divine metamagic, extend, persistant, etc.. Any ideas on what FR god and what domains should be chosen? (Dru will be probably NG and Beguiler CG. Cleric should be good too, maybe neutral is also an option)
Vashwood 08-03-06, 08:25 PM	3 Cleric party for the win! They get spells to be rogues, spells that make them tanks, domains that make them damage deal ... oh, and they can heal when they're tired of being everything else. When the odds aren't in your favor, go for the broken/unbalanced. Or, if you've got more pride than that and a Tome of Magic, I'd say throw a Binder into the mix. Prolly one of the coolest classes I've ever played, they get a huge variety of strange and useful abilities (which are generally supernatural in nature, unlike those weakling Warlocks with their spell-like abilities =D ) and a clever player can create a rather powerful force. The only real downside is the 2 mins (or 11 rounds, if you rush) that it takes to bind, but if you know what you're facing ahead of time you can do it at the beginning of the day and have it last till the next morning. Only real weakness for binders is healing others, but they can take care of themselves fairly well ( binding Naberius, for example, causes you to heal 1 ability score point per round). You might also consider some of the psionic classes, particularly from Complete Psionics. The Lurk is kinda cool (though not really a substitute for a rogue) who gets the ability to augment his melee attacks with psionic effects like stunning, dealing damage to mental attributes, making attacks ghost touch ... etc. The Divine Mind is something like a psionic bard/paladin, possessing more hitpoints than the bard, less base attack than the paladin, and the ability to constantly radiate auras to weaken his enemies and protect his allies. And of course, if all else fails, aim for some PHB 2 stuff. Duskblade is pretty mean for damage dealing and could prolly tank half-way decently. And the Dragon Shaman ... angers me, but is absurdly powerful enough to suit such a small group.
Grey_Mage 08-03-06, 11:01 PM	Personally Id go either: Barbarian- main combatant Druid- Talker/healer Rogue/Ranger- traps, stunts, and secondairy healing/melee. OR Paladin- Main fighter Cleric- Heal/secondair fighter Bard- Stunts, battle field control, healing. But thats because I like to have some... coalescence to my groups.
gamertall 08-04-06, 11:17 AM	For FR deities I recommend choosing Mielikki for the Druid and either Torm, Tyr, or Helm for the Cleric. If necessary for the Beguiler, I recommend Mystra. I don't want to forget about using racial deities as choices for any demi-humans in the party. I did not know what levels that the PCs currently are, so that is why I recommended the Heal skill ranks. I still do though, what if you run out of healing magic? The Track feat is for the Druid. High ranks in Survival will allow you to follow enemies without expending precious gold/magic, but can also be used to determine the number and/or size of creatures that maybe ahead of you and to cover your tracks for those behind you. I agree with you totally that the Cleric needs to pick up Extend Spell and then Persistent Spell metamagic feats. See if your DM is allowing the use of the Player's Handbook II. Maybe the Druid could go on a Rebuild Quest to change the level of Monk to a level of Druid. I just finished a campaign where the player of the Druid took a level in Monk. It didn't help in the least. In fact, it made him weaker due to the no armor restriction.
balu000 08-06-06, 02:16 PM	gamertall: Mielikki is a good choice for my Druid indeed, I really love unicorns ;) Track, well, maybe i should try, never ever picked that feat yet ;) (well, i was playing rouge and sorc usually :D) I will take a look at this rebuild quest. PHB2 is allowed. Btw I will probaby take Vow of Poverty for monk, so the lack of armor use will definiely not hurt :P thx for the help balu
Red_Rabbit 08-06-06, 02:22 PM	If you have Unearthed Arcana than make a Warrior or an Expert to cover traps and secondary melee. Those allow you to mix and match abilities to one class for the cost of a feat. The Rabbit
Otto the Bugbear 08-06-06, 03:40 PM	I'd go with Druid, Cleric, & Beguiler too. Druid, go for the summoner role to provide some damage sinks, and the druid and his animal companion can also fight pretty well. Cleric, grab either the travel domain, or the time domain. Beguiler, grab the feat Arcane Disciple (cc ranks, but still) for the Spell Domain (perhaps initiate of Mystra too) Sounds like a fun party to be in. Cheers Otto :)
balu000 08-06-06, 08:13 PM	Otto, as a beguiler i would probably have max 14 wisdom. thus i could cast only max lvl4 spells from the spell domain. its not worth it this way. or maybe i neglected something important?
Xavon_Wrentaile 08-06-06, 11:01 PM	Though there have been plenty of suggestions here, I have 3 counter proposals: 1) Play multiple characters. It you need the bases covered, have each person play two characters (if they want to and feel comfortable). 2) Gestalt. Generally considered power gaming, but then again the CR system assumes a larger party. This will let you cover your bases. 3) DM character. As a DM I often play a character as well. This gives me a way to interact with the PCs more directly, and I use that character to shore up any gaps. Of course, your DM has to be mature enough to not favor his own character.
UnknownMourner 08-07-06, 05:36 AM	Ask the DM if you can each be given a NPC warrior to run in combat, but he controls most of the time. Squires or whatever. Then you guys can play whatever you want and he doesnt have to worry about wiping you too much. THey would of course take half an xp share and maybe a loot %.
Otto the Bugbear 08-07-06, 07:48 AM	Otto, as a beguiler i would probably have max 14 wisdom. thus i could cast only max lvl4 spells from the spell domain. its not worth it this way. or maybe i neglected something important? It's just one feat. Even skipping that feat doesn't change my opinion of what classes to include. Cheers Otto :)
balu000 08-07-06, 12:22 PM	Ok Otto, just wanted to be sure. Ofc still the beguiler is great ;) Btw about the NPC warrior/fighter we were already thinking about. Definitely not on first level where we will start, but we can hire someone at 4th level or later. Until then we can still rely on the cleric+animal companion. Multiple characters: already tried, never ever worked (maybe we are simply lames, god knows ;)) Thx for all the answers