Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dama 01-10-05, 01:40 PM	If someone with sneak attack throws 3 shirukin as a single attack does each shirukin do full sneak attack damage? Along the same lines, if a monster has multiple attacks, like a Marilith demon & it has rogue levels or sneak attacks for some other reason, does each of the multiple attacks get sneak attack damage? In advance of your answer, where does it say that? Also, I think you should be able to throw 3 shirukin in each hand (or a dart, throwing axe, throwing dagger or other thrown projectile in each hand) with the same considerations given to ambidexterity & 2 weapon fighting for minuses to hit. I know thrown weapons are ranged weapons & those are melee feats but I don't see a need to make up feats especially for thrown weapons in this case. How do you think it should work?
Greegan 01-10-05, 01:53 PM	Are you talking 3.0 or 3.5 here? With 2-Weapon Fighting you CAN throw a weapon with each hand, within the rules of the feat. There is no "ambidexterity" feat any longer in 3.5. Sneak Attack says: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty. A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. THEREFORE, in answer to your question, YES, any and every attack a rogue gets whilst his opponent is flat-footed or denied his dex bonus is considered a sneak attack and thus applies damage appropriately.
Dechrot 01-10-05, 02:48 PM	Only 1 of the 3 shirukins will get the sneak attack damage. The other 2 will do their normal damage.
DM Zoc 01-10-05, 03:18 PM	In 3.0, when you can throw three shuriken with one attack, only the first one gets sneak attack damage. The same is true if you are using one of the orb spells from Tome and Blood, or the Manyshot feat. In 3.5, shuriken are thrown one at a time, allowing you iterative attacks, and you get sneak attack on each one as long as the conditions for sneak attack apply (so you get three sneak attacks if you're a high-level rogue who caught someone flat-footed, but not if you had Invisibility cast on you).
Halonrd 01-10-05, 08:16 PM	I would say no because after the first one hits the foe is aware and it wouldn't be sneaking anymore if that made sense
Lusiphur 01-10-05, 10:49 PM	In 3.5, shuriken are thrown one at a time, allowing you iterative attacks whoa whoa whoa... am i reading that correctly? in 3.5 you throw one shuriken only? as in if you have an attack bonus +4 you throw one +4 and no more? If this is the case, then do they still only deal 1 point of damage? i realize this is a new question all together, but i use a smattering of both 3.0 and 3.5 rules so i miss things sometimes.
Wharin 01-10-05, 10:58 PM	I would say no because after the first one hits the foe is aware and it wouldn't be sneaking anymore if that made sense Though it might make sense to you (i am not saying its ludicrous, but i disagree with you) but the rules state that if a rogue gets more than one attack, while you are caught flat footed (which can be for any number of reasons) all of those attacks that hit, deal SA damage. That said, in a suprise round, you only get a standard action, so normally a rogue would only get one SA attack. And i am pretty sure that a shiruken does more damage now in 3.5. Something more along the lines of throwing dagger damage, but i dont have the book handy right now.
DM Zoc 01-11-05, 09:48 AM	whoa whoa whoa... am i reading that correctly? in 3.5 you throw one shuriken only? as in if you have an attack bonus +4 you throw one +4 and no more? If this is the case, then do they still only deal 1 point of damage? i realize this is a new question all together, but i use a smattering of both 3.0 and 3.5 rules so i miss things sometimes. Shuriken are thrown one at a time, but they can be drawn as a free action (allowing iterative attacks). A high-level monk will end up throwing 5 per round, or 8 with two-weapon fighting. A medium shuriken does 1d2, while a small one does just 1; you may now add your strength damage to them, however.
Thorak 01-11-05, 01:30 PM	Though it might make sense to you (i am not saying its ludicrous, but i disagree with you) but the rules state that if a rogue gets more than one attack, while you are caught flat footed (which can be for any number of reasons) all of those attacks that hit, deal SA damage. That said, in a suprise round, you only get a standard action, so normally a rogue would only get one SA attack. And, if you throw or fire multiple projectiles in a single attack, you can only apply precision-based damage such as sneak attack to one of the projectiles. Basically, you're hitting the nasty target with one, and the others are just following the same general trajectory, and won't hit that vulnerable spot.
dama 01-11-05, 10:40 PM	Along the same lines, if a monster has multiple attacks (one brain, multiple attacks), like a Marilith demon & it has rogue levels or sneak attacks for some other reason, does each of the multiple attacks get sneak attack damage? In advance of your answer, where does it say that? In reply to your replies about shirukin sneak attacks; You guys say yes or no without giving rational reasons why. If I don't have rational explanations for why or how mechanical/physical events (magic is a special child) happen within the game then the game degenerates into a trivia game of who know the most rules. : P In the real world, an untrained 'commoner' can throw 3 shirukin simultaneously at a target 10 feet away (range increment in 3E) & have a reasonable chance of hitting what they are aiming at. Take in to account training, skill & natural aptitude & you end up with 3.5 rules being pure BS. The people that came up with only being able to throw 1 projectile at a time are obviously incapable of throwing a handful of coins in a bowl. Another tidbit of trivia towards ridiculousness: a round is 6 seconds, how many precise throws (of anything) could an expert throw in 6 seconds?
Dunelord 01-12-05, 02:56 AM	Dama it's a game. It will not always make sence when compared with real world. A large part of the job of the DM is to make the game make sence as a real world description. An exsample of this might be someone throwing all 3 of his daggers at once even though by the rules the attacks would be done one at a time. If your willing to cut the rules a little slack as not being real world and try cover the difference with descriptions then you might have more fun with it. As to the 3.5 rules being pure BS who cares? The point of the game is to have fun not make sence.
Wharin 01-12-05, 05:48 AM	And, if you throw or fire multiple projectiles in a single attack, you can only apply precision-based damage such as sneak attack to one of the projectiles. Basically, you're hitting the nasty target with one, and the others are just following the same general trajectory, and won't hit that vulnerable spot. Well yeah, in 3.0 if a person threw 3 shurikens in one attack, only one of them would have the SA damage apply. But in 3.5 lets say if a level 20 rogue got the suprise round AND got beat the victims initiative, he would get a many as 4 SA attack (1 attack from the suprise round and 3 interative attacks), and these attacks could be up front in melee or they could be thrown (within 30 feet). Of course if you already knew that, nevermind. Of course if a Rogue had many shot, yeah only the first one would get SA.
Thorak 01-12-05, 07:28 AM	Well yeah, in 3.0 if a person threw 3 shurikens in one attack, only one of them would have the SA damage apply. But in 3.5 lets say if a level 20 rogue got the suprise round AND got beat the victims initiative, he would get a many as 4 SA attack (1 attack from the suprise round and 3 interative attacks), and these attacks could be up front in melee or they could be thrown (within 30 feet). Of course if you already knew that, nevermind. Of course if a Rogue had many shot, yeah only the first one would get SA. Point being the same Rogue, even in 3.0, wouldn't get 12 sneak attacks if he threw 3 shuriken with each attack.
GRAOUH !!! 01-12-05, 07:49 AM	Precision damage can only be applied once per attack roll. It's different with spells as you can apply it only once per spell. You can only throw one weapon/round or two if you have two-weapon fighting. To be able to throw more weapon/round at higher level, tou must take the Quickdraw feat : QUICK DRAW [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action. Special: A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats. Edit : I'm speaking 3.5 tongue, of course :P
Wharin 01-12-05, 08:33 AM	Point being the same Rogue, even in 3.0, wouldn't get 12 sneak attacks if he threw 3 shuriken with each attack. Yeah, of course... ok i think we are "argueing" the same point. Right, so you would only get, at most, three SA's, at 6 more damage from the surpurflous shurikens, using the 3.0 setting. Although, Graoh did bring up a point that i didnt consider before (i never played an assassin type rogue at all before, i am not an expert), but even though shurikens are thrown weapons, would they count as thrown weapons for the purpous of needing quick draw? I thought the whole point of them being counted as ammo is that you could throw them with you multiple attacks/round without the quickdraw feat. Otherwise, I mean, i'd just as soon stick with my throwing daggers that wont be destroyed as soon as i throw them and deal more damage to boot. Alas, i never keep my phb near the comp so i can never verify/deverify that what i say is in the RAW at all.
dama 01-12-05, 12:02 PM	in 3.0 SA can occur anytime the opponent is flatfooted or flanked. Flatfooted is something of a challenge but flanked is easy to acheive. On the other hand, tripping someone is pretty easy, then they are flatfooted. Being held, or otherwise immobilized or unaware counts as sneakable too, yes? Has this changed in 3.5?
Thorak 01-12-05, 12:57 PM	in 3.0 SA can occur anytime the opponent is flatfooted or flanked. Flatfooted is something of a challenge but flanked is easy to acheive. Technically, it's any time they're denied their dex bonus, or are flanked. Being flat-footed denies dex bonus. That's why it's in there. Being Grappled doesn't make you flat-footed, but does deny you your dex bonus against the people you're not grappling. On the other hand, tripping someone is pretty easy, then they are flatfooted. No, no, no. And no. Being tripped makes you prone. You don't lose your dex just for being on the ground. Turn to page 151. Look at the top right corner. See that table, on "Armor Class Modifiers"? Good. Look at footnote 1. Anything with footnote 1 denies dex bonus. Now, look at Prone on that table. Does it have footnote 1? No, it does not. You retain your dex bonus when Tripped. Being held, or otherwise immobilized or unaware counts as sneakable too, yes? Has this changed in 3.5? Those count, because you don't gain your dex bonus. Same if the sneak attacker is invisible and his opponent can't see him. Any time you would be denied your dex bonus, or when flanked. And being Prone doesn't do either.