Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brianish 06-26-04, 06:54 PM	I've been strongly considering using the old version of the Samurai (from Oriental Adventures), rather than the version published in Complete Warrior. My major reason is the emphasis on two weapon fighting. Samurai didn't use their wazakashi to fight with generally - they kept it around in case they had to kill themselves. I do, however, like the old version. My question is why was it changed? Was the old version too powerful? Too weak? If it's the former, would enforcing a very strict roleplaying policy with regards to Bushido and honor etc possibly balance the classes power? Or was it just a rethinking of the idea?
Moonstonedragon 06-26-04, 06:57 PM	I totally agree with you! But remember the samurai was in oriental adventures, it wasnt a core rule book. The one in complete warrior is WoTC version of it.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-26-04, 06:58 PM	The new one was an attempt to give the samurai a Western flavor. Edit: I'd just like to add that they failed miserably.
Brianish 06-26-04, 07:10 PM	That was the other possibility I thought of. Putting in the old version would have required an awful lot of explanation of the culture behind the swords.
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-26-04, 08:08 PM	I'm a big fan of 3.5. When it comes to the samurai, the 3.0 version is better. In most ways, anyway. (I wasn't a big fan of 3.0 Iajitsu Strike, although that's more a skill problem than a class problem.) The 3.5 "samurai" doesn't model a samurai at all well, not even a "westernized" samurai. Westerners are capable of doing net searches on samurai (such as the CW designers) and finding out real facts on them, like most weren't dual-wielders and the person the class is based on was actually a ronin. So is anyone else who is computer literate and has 'net access, of course. Or at least they can find something that isn't a Drizzt clone that comes tied down with a predetermined combat style. (You'd think they'd learn from the ranger 3.0 mess.)
Brianish 06-26-04, 08:34 PM	So I assume you mean you're a fan of 3.0. In any case, as long as it was for consistency purposes, and not balance purposes, I do believe I'll go on using 3.0 Samurai. Thanks, all.
q'afuu 06-26-04, 09:07 PM	Originally posted by Moonstonedragon But remember the samurai was in oriental adventures, it wasnt a core rule book. The one in complete warrior is WoTC version of it. OA is a WotC book too. Only the subsequent supplements are published by AEG. That said, it's not impossible to switch out the ancestral daisho for something else - even something very similar, but with a more western feel, depending on what the class is used for. I'm sure at least one poster remarked on that to me, can't recall who exactly. Must have been on the OA board.
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-26-04, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by Brianish So I assume you mean you're a fan of 3.0. In any case, as long as it was for consistency purposes, and not balance purposes, I do believe I'll go on using 3.0 Samurai. Thanks, all. Not sure if you're talking to me... I believe 3.5 is superior to 3.0. At least, when it comes to core rules, psionics and maybe Eberron. (The Complete Series forces me to say 3.5 isn't superior in every category.) However, the 3.0 samurai is definitely superior, IMO, from both a mechanical and flavor point of view. It's probably because 3.0 non-core material is often better than the 3.5 material.
Brianish 06-27-04, 05:01 PM	Ah, so you meant 3.5 in a general sense. Gotcha.
Rath_Robert 06-27-04, 05:31 PM	Now I don't claim to be an expert on Samurai, but I have some ideas on how to make one that doesn't appear to be just a glorified fighter like in the Oriental Handbook. Maybe with all of your help we can make a better Samurai then either of the ones that was made previsouly. Well here it is, now please, I'm aware it is probably too powerful, so help me tone it down if you can. The Samurai Every respectable Lord or important merchant is in need of a specialized guard. One that puts the lords well being before their own. One such person is the Samurai. They live, fight, and breath in the name of their respected lord. They are very capable fighters bound by a very strict code of honor. Adventures: The Samurai will often take up quests for their lord, no matter what the difficulty. Sometimes a Samurai will lose his master, if such were to occur the will travel the world in search of a new master. If for whatever reason they were directly responsible for the death of his master he then becomes a Ronin. Characteristics: Samurai are always honest folk who spend their lives in fulfilment of the code of the bushido. Some Samurai are experts in fighting from horseback others prefer to do their battling on the ground. Most Samurai are proficient in armed and unarmed combat. Samurai normally emphasize fighting with the bow and arrow. They used swords for close-in fighting and beheading their enemies. The Samurai wore two swords (daisho). One was long; the other short. The long sword (daito - katana) was more than 24 inches. The short sword (shoto - wakizashi) was between 12 and 24 inches. The Samurai often gave names to their swords and believed it was the "soul" of their warriorship. Samurai cannot stand to be disgraced and would much rather die than live in shame. Seppuku is a true Samurai's way of atoning for disgrace, defeat or dishonour by slicing his or her stomach in a ritual self destruction and is often considered not simply as right, but as the only right course. To the Samurai, seppuku -- whether ordered as punishment or chosen in preference to a dishonourable death at the hands of an enemy -- is an unquestionable demonstration of their honor, courage, loyalty, and moral character. If condemned to death, it is held to be a privilege to execute the sentence on one's own body rather than to be a disgrace and die at the hands of the public headsman. The ritual for disembowelment is always performed calmly and without flinching, and can only be performed at the guild's shrine. It will always be considered an act of reassignment from the guild. The Samurai can also never deny a challenge from a fellow samurai and unless otherwise stated is always a fight to the death. The samurai also collects the heads of his fallen victims and carries them as his spoils of victory. A Samurai may never unsheathe his weapon unless he intends on drawing blood and if no blood is drawn he will need to take some of his own. Religion: The samurai often takes on the patron god of his lord but others will also worship Heironeous or in some cases Kord. But as with every case there will be exceptions. Game Rule Information The Samurai has the following game rule information: Alignment: Any Lawful Hit Die: d10 Class Skills The Samurai class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are; Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Knowledge (Military Tactics), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str) See Chapter 4 in the Core Rulebook 1 for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st Level: 2 + Int modifier x 4 Skill Points at each additional Level: 2 + Int modifier Class Features All of the following are class features of the Samurai Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A Samurai is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons as well as the Chain, Three-Seciton-Staff, Wakizashi, Nagamaki, Katana, Sai, and Naginata. They are also Proficient with all Types of armor, but not shields. Note that wearing armour heavier than leather imposes a penalty to the ranger skills Climb, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently. Swim checks also suffer a –1 penalty for every 5 lbs. of armour or equipment carried. Ancestral Bushido: The Samurai must makes a code of honor between himself and his master. As a reward, he begins his adventure with a Katana and Wakizashi. The Code of Bushido: The Code of Bushido requires the Samurai to have eight virtues that he must keep at all times. These virtues are as follows: 1) The samurai must have a sense of justice and honesty, especially between himself and his master. 2) The Samurai must always show courage in battle and show contempt for death. Samurai must also fight without fear. 3) The Samurai must maintain self control and keep their wits about them. To not do so, would show weakness and could cause them to make mistakes in battle. 4) Samurai must show sympathy towards all people, even the most hated of enemies. 5) Samurai must be polite and show respect for etiquette not only amongst nobles, but amongst all people. They also must keep honor and etiquette in battle. 6) Samurai must show sincerity and respect for one’s word of honor, even if they think of the person as unhonorable. 7) Samurai must show absolute loyalty to their superior and due as they are instructed by their master. 8) Samurai have a duty to defend the honor of their names and guild. Quick Draw: At 1st level the Samurai earns the quick draw feat for free. Iaido Style: The Samurai have created their own fighting style. By using their ability to quickly draw their weapons they catch enemies off guard and earn extra damage with their Katana. Starting at 2nd level, if the Samurai is unarmed and gets attacked by an enemy that he is aware off (Samurai cannot be flat-footed), he draws his Katana and makes a devastating attack at his highest bonus to his enemy. The Samurai must be unarmed when attacked, and also may only do this attack once per battle. Iaido style also only works with his Katana, he cannot perform it with any other weapon. If the attack is successful the Samurai gains additional damage to his enemy equal to that on the chart below. Eyes of Fury: At 3rd level, the Samurai’s great skill in combat causes enemies to doubt themselves in battle. A Samurai’s stern gaze causes enemies who fail a Will save (DC 10 + The Samurai’s Cha Modifier) to become shaken for one round. This ability is an extraordinary gaze attack. The Samurai may use this ability as a free action against one opponent each round in melee combat. Shimmering Katana: Starting at 5th level, the Samurai has become so focus and familiar his Katana, he can channel his energy through the weapon making it a Magical Weapon, however, to do so will cause the Samurai to loose some of his own life force. The PC must roll randomly for what ability his weapon gains and looses 1000 XP for making it a +1 Weapon. At 10th level, the Samurai can make his a weapon a +2 Magical weapon, however, it costs him 3000 XP. At 15th level, the Samurai may make his weapon a +3 weapon, but it costs him 5000 XP. At 20th level, the Samurai may make his weapon a +4 Magical Weapon at the cost of 7,000 XP. The Samurai may choose not to acquire this ability (if he does not want to loose XP) and use this as a bonus feat slot instead. Fearless: By 7th level, the Samurai has become one with life and does not fear death, pain, or some creature’s gaze attacks. With this ability the Samurai ignores gaze attacks from any creature that is of his hit die or below. Fearsome Appearance: At 9th level the Samurai’s presence in battle sows doubt amid his enemies and weakens their will to attack. Opponents must make a Will Save (DC 10 + The Samurai’s Cha Modifier) to make an attack of opportunity against a Samurai. Bonus Feats: At 11th, 17th, and 19th level, the Samurai gains combat bonus feats. Note: He may also earn four more bonus feats if he bypasses the Shimmering Katana Ability. Commanding Presence: At 13th level, a Samurai’s stern gaze leaves his enemies quaking in fear. A Samurai frightens enemies who fail a Will save (DC 10 + The Samurai’s Cha Modifier). An opponent that is frightened immediately flees (using any means in their possession, even magic), if able. If unable to flee. The opponent may stand and fight, though they suffer a -2 Morale penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage, and saving throws. This ability is a gaze attack that can be used on one opponent as a free action. Fear Immunity: At 15th level, the Samurai completely fearless. With this ability the Samurai is immune to all gaze attacks, fear, and cause fear spells. The Samurai cannot be intimidated. Multi-Class Restriction: The path of a samurai is a difficult one, anyone who chooses to take a level of any class other than samurai will no longer be able to take class levels as a samurai, but will retain all their abilities, unless they switch from a lawful alignment. Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +2 +2 Ancestral Bushido, Quick Draw 2 +2 +3 +3 +3 Iaido Style (+1d6) 3 +3 +3 +3 +3 Eyes of Fury 4 +4 +4 +4 +4 Iaido Style (+2d6) 5 +5 +4 +4 +4 Shimmering Katana (+1) 6 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Iaido Style (+3d6) 7 +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 Fearless 8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 Iaido Style (+4d6) 9 +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 Fearsome Appearance 10 +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 Iaido Style (+5d6), Shimmering Katana (+1) 11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Bonus Feat 12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 Iaido Style (+6d6) 13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8 Commanding Presence 14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9 Iaido Style (+7d6) 15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Fear Immunity, Shimmering Katana (+1) 16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Iaido Style (+8d6) 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Bonus Feat 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 Iaido Style (+9d6) 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11 Bonus Feat 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Iaido Style (+10d6), Shimmering Katana (+1)
TMPikachu 06-27-04, 06:03 PM	Anyone want to make a French Cavalier class to go along with that? I've always found it wierd that Druids are nothing like Druids, fighters can be noble knights, bandit kings, or gladiator champions, but when someone is a Samurai, he is a Samurai, completely down to the historical fine print. I don't like either the 3.0 or 3.5 Samurai. To me, a Fighter is a samurai, and that Magic Sword user is as made up as the Paladin.
Rath_Robert 06-27-04, 06:08 PM	Insightful words, fantasy is fantasy, but keeping some historical features of the class is a must, if you can't then don't call it a samurai, call it a Katana master whatever you want, but if it doesn't keep the same codes of conduct and such as the historical samurai, then it shouldn't be called as such.
TMPikachu 06-27-04, 07:55 PM	Originally posted by Rath_Robert Insightful words, fantasy is fantasy, but keeping some historical features of the class is a must, if you can't then don't call it a samurai, call it a Katana master whatever you want, but if it doesn't keep the same codes of conduct and such as the historical samurai, then it shouldn't be called as such. Did Druids really wield scimitars and fight alongside bears? I guess it's too late to 'correct' Druids and Clerics, but by now druid means 'nature wizard' to us, not the historic clerical figures of aboriginal British. What exactly would seperate the historical Samurai from being a fighter? The skills of the noble? Then require them to take a few levels of Noble.
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-27-04, 09:19 PM	Originally posted by TMPikachu Anyone want to make a French Cavalier class to go along with that? I've always found it wierd that Druids are nothing like Druids, fighters can be noble knights, bandit kings, or gladiator champions, but when someone is a Samurai, he is a Samurai, completely down to the historical fine print. I don't like either the 3.0 or 3.5 Samurai. To me, a Fighter is a samurai, and that Magic Sword user is as made up as the Paladin. Same here. Samurai used different weapons (covered by feats), armor (covered by free feats), and used horses, bows, katana and spears. Nothing different yet. Poetry? You get skill points, spend them. About the only difference I can see is Iaido or Iajitsu Strike. Rath Insightful words, fantasy is fantasy, but keeping some historical features of the class is a must, if you can't then don't call it a samurai, call it a Katana master whatever you want, but if it doesn't keep the same codes of conduct and such as the historical samurai, then it shouldn't be called as such. Knights don't suffer from a code of conduct, so why should samurai? The code was an ideal, and the great lords did not follow them (otherwise, how would they backstab their way up the ladder to be great lords?); neither did the villains. If the class can't cover evil samurai, then it's not a good samurai class. TMPikachu Did Druids really wield scimitars and fight alongside bears? I guess it's too late to 'correct' Druids and Clerics, but by now druid means 'nature wizard' to us, not the historic clerical figures of aboriginal British. Well, the wildshape fits some of the stories :) I'm not sure where the scimitars came from, though.
SmallPumpkinMan 06-28-04, 02:12 AM	The Samurai in CW is not supposed to overule the one in OA. It's supposed to be for people wanting to play Samurais in a western setting. The 3.5 update for all the OA stuff was in Dragon a while ago, the only change Samurai got was their Ancestral Daisho Strikes as "Honorable", which is a DR equivalent to "good" is OA, and is what they changed a lot of the DR for Oni to in the the same mag. I'm sure if you looked through the OA boards you could find which one it was. Personally, I was pretty unimpressed with CW version.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-28-04, 02:27 AM	I think that the samuria is perhaps a little different thqan a fighter. of course, I find the differences between historical samurai to be just as equal as the perceived differences between a Paladin, a fighter, a barbarian, and a ranger. The CW samurai is good if you see a smaurai as a variant fighter, because that's what it is, it's a variant fighter. However, if you see samurais as different, then the OA class is better. I personally prefer the OA class. But that's me.
detectevil 06-28-04, 10:46 AM	Originally posted by Brianish I've been strongly considering using the old version of the Samurai (from Oriental Adventures), rather than the version published in Complete Warrior. Please do. The CW samurai is ridicuous, unflavorous, and silly. If you want something dome right, you should go to the source. So, where could you find a better Samurai than in Oriental Adventures?
TMPikachu 06-28-04, 03:07 PM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th I think that the samuria is perhaps a little different thqan a fighter. of course, I find the differences between historical samurai to be just as equal as the perceived differences between a Paladin, a fighter, a barbarian, and a ranger. The CW samurai is good if you see a smaurai as a variant fighter, because that's what it is, it's a variant fighter. However, if you see samurais as different, then the OA class is better. I personally prefer the OA class. But that's me. I'm not challenging your reasons, but I'm just curious in how you precieve them to be significantly different?
Brianish 06-28-04, 05:11 PM	I think the best Samurai they've produced is the Master Samurai prestige class in Sword and Fist. Turn a Samurai into Master Samurai and it'll work great.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-28-04, 09:09 PM	Originally posted by TMPikachu I'm not challenging your reasons, but I'm just curious in how you precieve them to be significantly different? Because I see them as more cultured, with lesser learning in combat. Although in early japanese history, samurai would indeed be fighters. Very late in their feudal period, they would be aristocrats rather than any fighting class. However, in between those, there would be a mix of the two. That's my RP reasons. My metagame reasons are that there should be a class with good fighting and a good will save, in my opinion. But that's a lesser reasons. ;)
TMPikachu 06-28-04, 09:21 PM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th Because I see them as more cultured, with lesser learning in combat. Although in early japanese history, samurai would indeed be fighters. Very late in their feudal period, they would be aristocrats rather than any fighting class. However, in between those, there would be a mix of the two. That's my RP reasons. My metagame reasons are that there should be a class with good fighting and a good will save, in my opinion. But that's a lesser reasons. ;) I've heard that Unearthed Arcana has an 'alternative fighter' class called Warrior basically same thing, but their feats aren't restricted, they don't have heavy armor proficiency, and they can pick which save is highest. On another note, I've often heard of Fighters being too weak. Would a high will sv and more skill points make them overpowered? Then in a Japanese setting, would the average Samurai have the same will power as the Monk or the studious wizard? In their setting, how do they rank against their peers?