3.5 Deepwood Sniper Varient [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Deepwood Sniper Varient [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RobbyPants
03-18-07, 11:26 PM Disclaimer: This is a repost of the 3.5 version of the Deepwood Sniper I made a while back. I wanted to start this fresh, without all of the clutter of the other posts, and countless revisions. The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether or not the 3.0 Deepwood Sniper needs a revision, but rather to critique this class as presented.

Basically, I'm using the same fluff from the Deepwood Sniper PrC from Masters of the Wild. I wanted to pull back the crit range and multipliers a bit from the 3.0 version, and add in some different abilities in their place. I'm looking forward to any critisism and ideas you have. Here it goes!

Deepwood Sniper
Hit Die: d8.

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become a deepwood sniper, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks.
Feats: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow or crossbow).

Fort Ref Will
Lvl BAB Save Save Save Special
1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Safe poison use, range increment bonus +10 ft./level
2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Improved Critical
3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Bonus feat
4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Take aim +2
5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Weapon specialization
6 +6 +2 +5 +2 Bonus feat, Ranged precision
7 +7 +2 +5 +2 Camouflage
8 +8 +2 +6 +2 Take aim +4
9 +9 +3 +6 +3 Bonus feat
10 +10 +3 +7 +3 Greater Critical

CLASS SKILLS
The deepwood sniper’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are features of the deepwood sniper prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Deepwood snipers gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

Safe Poison Use (Ex): At 1st level, a deepwood sniper can use poison without any chance of poisoning herself.

Range Increment Bonus (Ex): With each class level the deepwood sniper gains, the range increment of her projectile weapons increase by +10 feet (added after all multipliers).

Improved Critical (Ex): At 2nd level, the deepwood sniper gains the Improved Critical feat. This feat must be applied to the bow or crossbow for which she has taken the Weapon Focus Feat. She gains this feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level the deepwood sniper gains a bonus feat, selected from the following list: Alertness, Crossbow Sniper, Deadeye Shot, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Penetrating Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Reconnoiter, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting, Shot on the Run, and Stealthy. She must still meet the prerequisites as normal. She gains an additional bonus feat at 6th and 9th levels.

Take Aim (Ex): A 4th-level deepwood sniper can gain a +2 bonus on her attack rolls against a stationary target by aiming carefully. If the target has partial concealment, she may ignore it. She also gains an additional 1d6 precision damage to the attack, if within 30 feet. This damage does not apply to creatures immune to critical hits. The extra damage is not multiplied during a critical hit. Taking aim is a full-round action, and if the target moves more than 5 feet during that period, the bonus is lost. No additional benefit exists for spending more than 1 round aiming. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level, and the precision damage increases to +2d6 damage.

Weapon Specialization: A deepwood sniper of 5th level or higher gains Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat. It must be applied to a bow or crossbow with which the sniper has taken the Weapon Focus feat.

Ranged Precision: At 6th level, a deepwood sniper adds 30 feet to the range of all precision based damage (including her take aim ability, as well as sneak attack, sudden attack, and skirmish, as well as any others she might have).

Camouflage (Ex): A deepwood sniper of 7th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Greater Critical (Ex): At 10th level, the threat range of her bow or crossbow becomes triple its original value. So a crossbow's critical would become 15-20x2, and a bow's would become 18-20x3. This ability is applied to the bow or crossbow with which she gained the Improved Critical feat for at 2nd level.
Ranger REG
03-19-07, 01:43 AM First off, I don't know about safe poison use. Personally, I like snipers to be an expert at long-distance ranged attack as a duelist is an expert at close-quarter melee combat. Even duelist does not rely on poison to defeat his opponent. That's the forte of the assassin.
Devlonir
03-19-07, 07:02 AM A Sniper's main motivation is to kill his target without them noticing him.. so I don't think poison is really that strange an ability. Blinding poison, a crippling poison and so on really help. And don't forget, this isnt a highly trained army sniper, but more of a nature warrior who snipes from the trees and bushes and so on. It is a Deepwood Sniper afterall. Poison is a natural product, so it isn't that strange that an assassin of nature (what a deepwood sniper is) would use it.

I like the overall feel of the class. But getting a 18-20/x3 crit on a longbow is really overpowered in my opinion. But every other thing i see in this class is pretty nice and follows the fluff of a deepwood sniper pretty well
Wolf_Boy
03-19-07, 07:50 AM Maybe you should make the improved critical dependant upon the take aim ability.
starfire311
03-19-07, 08:55 AM ok just some comments... I would put power critical in there somewhere.

I would also take a look at this feat to replace your greater
critical, I like it because it goes along with the original flavor of doing more damage on a crit.

Greater Critical [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Improved Critical, Power Critical, BAB +12
Choose a weapon that you have improved critical with. When wielding the chosen weapon, if you threaten a critical, make two critical rolls. If one succeeds then you confirm the critical as normal. If both critical rolls succeed, then you do additional damage based on the crit multiplier of the weapon. If the crit multiplier was x2 then resolve it as x3 instead, if it was x3 then resolve it as x5 , if it was x4 then resolve as x7.

this is a feat I use in my games, also I do not let greater critical and improved critical stack

For example with a Long bow Crit 20/x3

With Imp crit/greater crit on a 19 you just do the normal confirm for x3 on a 20 you do the greater crit.

Another thing I would considor doing is instead of doing the +30ft for ranged precision, make it +5ft per level of DS, I prefer scaling abilities when possible, and at level 10 a +50ft instead of +30ft will not be game breaking.
The_Shaman
03-19-07, 09:18 AM I think it can be fine as it is in MotW, possibly even with improved critical instead of the keen arrows feature. Sure, it's powerful - except it's completely foiled by a lvl 2/3 spell, and one of their best features - the insane range increments - requires a huge investment in spot and is extremely situational. I guess you could have it like that, but I think the devastating criticals it makes are what gives it flavor - like the peerless archer's bowslinging tricks.

I would definitely boost the skill requirement for spot, though. In order to make the long-distance shots they do, they need to have great eyesight first. Maybe hide, too - while as snipers they probably aren't such great sneaks, they need to be really good in camouflage.
highbulp
03-19-07, 09:34 AM I like the overall feel of the class. But getting a 18-20/x3 crit on a longbow is really overpowered in my opinion. But every other thing i see in this class is pretty nice and follows the fluff of a deepwood sniper pretty well

I think it's Sean Reynolds who has a long argument about why it's not overpowered if keen and Imp Critical stack--with numbers to back him up (I think--I don't have the link to the article with me). So if you believe that, then the Greater Critical ability is in no way overpowered, since this is exactly what it does.

Even if you don't buy that, I think it's a fine capstone ability for a 10-level PrC. Really, it's not mathematically much more damage than having Improved Crit with a Falchion (or any other 18-20 weapon). Sure, they can do it at range, but they spend 10 levels to get that ability.

I like it.
The_Shaman
03-19-07, 03:31 PM Keen and improved criticals did use to stack in 3.0, afaik. Considering that warriors are often considered weaker than mages, I'm a bit surprised they made sure they don't work together in 3.5.

Seriously, how many people have played the original Deepwood sniper? I do think that in practice one can have quite a few problems relying on ranged damage and criticals, but I haven't played it myself.
UAMDB
03-19-07, 03:42 PM Keen and improved criticals did use to stack in 3.0, afaik. Considering that warriors are often considered weaker than mages, I'm a bit surprised they made sure they don't work together in 3.5.

Seriously, how many people have played the original Deepwood sniper? I do think that in practice one can have quite a few problems relying on ranged damage and criticals, but I haven't played it myself.

I played one in 3.0 Had a fighter/wizard/Arcane Archer/Order of the Bow/Deep wood Sniper. He is beyond deadly, and protection from arrows would be used up with his first shot.

The build is not as effective in 3.5 since the magic bonuses, and improved crit do not stack anymore.
RobbyPants
03-19-07, 03:43 PM Maybe you should make the improved critical dependant upon the take aim ability.
IMO, I think that would make it too weak, as take aim is a full-round action.

ok just some comments... I would put power critical in there somewhere.
Not a bad idea, but I'm not sure where it would fit. Perhaps in the list of bonus feats...

I would also take a look at this feat to replace your greater
critical, I like it because it goes along with the original flavor of doing more damage on a crit.

Greater Critical [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Improved Critical, Power Critical, BAB +12
Choose a weapon that you have improved critical with. When wielding the chosen weapon, if you threaten a critical, make two critical rolls. If one succeeds then you confirm the critical as normal. If both critical rolls succeed, then you do additional damage based on the crit multiplier of the weapon. If the crit multiplier was x2 then resolve it as x3 instead, if it was x3 then resolve it as x5 , if it was x4 then resolve as x7.

this is a feat I use in my games, also I do not let greater critical and improved critical stack

For example with a Long bow Crit 20/x3

With Imp crit/greater crit on a 19 you just do the normal confirm for x3 on a 20 you do the greater crit.
I like the way you handled that, but I don't know that I need it for the level 10 capstone. I can see where people get the standard 3.5 knee-jerk reaction to increasing the threat range and the crit multiplier, but they are only allowed to increase each once. I think it's nicely toned down from the 3.0 version.

Another thing I would considor doing is instead of doing the +30ft for ranged precision, make it +5ft per level of DS, I prefer scaling abilities when possible, and at level 10 a +50ft instead of +30ft will not be game breaking.
Interesting idea... I guess I did it the way I did because these things always seem to work in 30 foot increments :P

I would definitely boost the skill requirement for spot, though. In order to make the long-distance shots they do, they need to have great eyesight first. Maybe hide, too - while as snipers they probably aren't such great sneaks, they need to be really good in camouflage.
Not a bad idea. I'm torn between 6 and 8 on these... When I make up my mind, I'll edit the OP. I'd have to look, but I think I just used the requirements from Masters of the Wild without modification. I never actually considered it before...

I think it's Sean Reynolds who has a long argument about why it's not overpowered if keen and Imp Critical stack--with numbers to back him up (I think--I don't have the link to the article with me). So if you believe that, then the Greater Critical ability is in no way overpowered, since this is exactly what it does.

Even if you don't buy that, I think it's a fine capstone ability for a 10-level PrC. Really, it's not mathematically much more damage than having Improved Crit with a Falchion (or any other 18-20 weapon). Sure, they can do it at range, but they spend 10 levels to get that ability.

I like it.
Thanks :D Espescially seen as how it's tied to a ranged weapon, I don't think it has a huge potential for abuse, and as you said, it's a 10-level dip to get to this ability.

Seriously, how many people have played the original Deepwood sniper? I do think that in practice one can have quite a few problems relying on ranged damage and criticals, but I haven't played it myself.
I've never played the original 3.0 version. I had a character aspiring for the PrC, but I quit playing him before hand. I had a player that wanted to play one, but I don't remember her actually doing it. She's actually playing this posted version right now, and I think she's level 3 (in the PrC). I think her current build is wood elf Ftr2 / Rog2 / Rng2 / DwSn 3. A lot of multi-classing, but it's fairly effective...

Thanks for all the input so far everyone! :D I look forward to getting more!
highbulp
03-19-07, 04:08 PM I played one in 3.0 Had a fighter/wizard/Arcane Archer/Order of the Bow/Deep wood Sniper. He is beyond deadly, and protection from arrows would be used up with his first shot.

You mean that a (probably) 15-20th level character could bust through a 2nd level spell in one round?! The horror!
UAMDB
03-19-07, 04:32 PM You mean that a (probably) 15-20th level character could bust through a 2nd level spell in one round?! The horror!

I know its game breaking powerful. However someone else above said that the class is foiled by 2/3 level spell. I am not sure which they meant, but assumed they ment Prot from arrows.
UAMDB
03-19-07, 04:38 PM Ok I think the class is not over balanced.

The way I read it the take aim ability is weak, but the greater improved Crit ability at 10th level is nice. You have to spend round 1 aiming, hope the target does not move more than 5ft, then you get 1 attack on round 2. Does not seem worth it. I might be misreading it.

Also I would either make Precise shot a Pre-reg or give it as a bonus feat. After all right not it can not shot in to combat without a penalty. Just some food for thought.
starfire311
03-19-07, 04:44 PM I know its game breaking powerful. However someone else above said that the class is foiled by 2/3 level spell. I am not sure which they meant, but assumed they ment Prot from arrows.

I assumed he meant windwall
The_Shaman
03-19-07, 06:26 PM Yep, it is Wind Wall. Although, PfA is good for that first shot - since chances are the sniper will go first, and it has a huge duration. However, wind wall is accessible to almost all casters - except paladins and bards - and is basically completely impenetrable by anything less than a throwing weapon.
Ranger REG
03-19-07, 08:19 PM A Sniper's main motivation is to kill his target without them noticing him.. so I don't think poison is really that strange an ability.
Perhaps, but I'd rather his abilities is to improve weapon's function to the capability of "one shot, one kill."

Otherwise, if he wishes to employ poison use -- even to craft his own -- he should consider multiclassing the assassin class.
The_Shaman
03-19-07, 08:51 PM I wouldn't worry about poison - imo it definitely fits the "one shot-one kill" approach, it's just that the shot has something more to worry about than the physical wound. After all, the job of a deepwood sniper is, imo, to eliminate someone from an extra-long distance and ideally without being seen; hence, getting the maximum out of the (possibly few) shots they can make would be an important consideration. It's a dirty tactic, perhaps, but essentially we are talking about a sniper, not a duelist :) .
RobbyPants
03-20-07, 09:27 AM The way I read it the take aim ability is weak, but the greater improved Crit ability at 10th level is nice. You have to spend round 1 aiming, hope the target does not move more than 5ft, then you get 1 attack on round 2. Does not seem worth it. I might be misreading it.

I'll have to look at my wording again...

The idea is that it's a full-round action, so you can do it all on your turn, but you only get one shot. It's more supposed to be handy for when you need to boost your attack bonus, but I will agree that it is a bit on the weak side (compared to a full-attack, possibly with rapid-shot added).

As for the not moving more than five feet, that was something left in from the 3.0 version. In actual, technical game mechanics, I guess the only way to thwart that is to ready an action to move (which seems like a bit of a waste). I could change that to that they could not have moved more than 5 feet on their previous action (representing them being stationary). Perhaps it needs a rewording...
starfire311
03-20-07, 04:22 PM I'll have to look at my wording again...

The idea is that it's a full-round action, so you can do it all on your turn, but you only get one shot. It's more supposed to be handy for when you need to boost your attack bonus, but I will agree that it is a bit on the weak side (compared to a full-attack, possibly with rapid-shot added).

As for the not moving more than five feet, that was something left in from the 3.0 version. In actual, technical game mechanics, I guess the only way to thwart that is to ready an action to move (which seems like a bit of a waste). I could change that to that they could not have moved more than 5 feet on their previous action (representing them being stationary). Perhaps it needs a rewording...

Atually the ability is meant so you spend 1 full round aiming, this means you start on your turn and you get the shot next turn.

You notice the text "taking aim is a full round action" this grants you a +2 to attack and possibly a +1D6 to damage, on your attacks against that target. this seems to last untill they move more than 5ft.

The whole point of this ability is for sniping, if your target is aware of you this ability is not going to be very good. IMO it is mostly a flavor ability since most of the time your target is aware of you.
Ranger REG
03-20-07, 05:07 PM I wouldn't worry about poison - imo it definitely fits the "one shot-one kill" approach, it's just that the shot has something more to worry about than the physical wound. After all, the job of a deepwood sniper is, imo, to eliminate someone from an extra-long distance and ideally without being seen; hence, getting the maximum out of the (possibly few) shots they can make would be an important consideration. It's a dirty tactic, perhaps, but essentially we are talking about a sniper, not a duelist :) .
*Shrugs*

Your Campaign, Your Rules.
dman11235
02-20-08, 09:35 AM This is not only a bump because I like the idea of updating this class, but I thought I'd chime in here and say that Take Aim is suffering from the same problem as the OotBI Ranged Precision ability does. In fact, I think RP may be a better ability than this: less time, more damage, still one shot. The attack bonus is nice, but it's not anywhere near enough to justify the ability.
The_Shaman
02-20-08, 12:49 PM *Shrugs*

Your Campaign, Your Rules.

It's a matter of concept, not rules. If you think they don't care about poison, sure. The MotW class had it anyway, so I thought there's no harm to keep it, but YMMV. *Shrugs*

Peace.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 03-18-07, 11:26 PM	Disclaimer: This is a repost of the 3.5 version of the Deepwood Sniper I made a while back. I wanted to start this fresh, without all of the clutter of the other posts, and countless revisions. The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether or not the 3.0 Deepwood Sniper needs a revision, but rather to critique this class as presented. Basically, I'm using the same fluff from the Deepwood Sniper PrC from Masters of the Wild. I wanted to pull back the crit range and multipliers a bit from the 3.0 version, and add in some different abilities in their place. I'm looking forward to any critisism and ideas you have. Here it goes! Deepwood Sniper Hit Die: d8. REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become a deepwood sniper, a character must fulfill all the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks. Feats: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow or crossbow). Fort Ref Will Lvl BAB Save Save Save Special 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Safe poison use, range increment bonus +10 ft./level 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Improved Critical 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Bonus feat 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Take aim +2 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Weapon specialization 6 +6 +2 +5 +2 Bonus feat, Ranged precision 7 +7 +2 +5 +2 Camouflage 8 +8 +2 +6 +2 Take aim +4 9 +9 +3 +6 +3 Bonus feat 10 +10 +3 +7 +3 Greater Critical CLASS SKILLS The deepwood sniper’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier. CLASS FEATURES All of the following are features of the deepwood sniper prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Deepwood snipers gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies. Safe Poison Use (Ex): At 1st level, a deepwood sniper can use poison without any chance of poisoning herself. Range Increment Bonus (Ex): With each class level the deepwood sniper gains, the range increment of her projectile weapons increase by +10 feet (added after all multipliers). Improved Critical (Ex): At 2nd level, the deepwood sniper gains the Improved Critical feat. This feat must be applied to the bow or crossbow for which she has taken the Weapon Focus Feat. She gains this feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Bonus Feat: At 3rd level the deepwood sniper gains a bonus feat, selected from the following list: Alertness, Crossbow Sniper, Deadeye Shot, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Penetrating Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Reconnoiter, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting, Shot on the Run, and Stealthy. She must still meet the prerequisites as normal. She gains an additional bonus feat at 6th and 9th levels. Take Aim (Ex): A 4th-level deepwood sniper can gain a +2 bonus on her attack rolls against a stationary target by aiming carefully. If the target has partial concealment, she may ignore it. She also gains an additional 1d6 precision damage to the attack, if within 30 feet. This damage does not apply to creatures immune to critical hits. The extra damage is not multiplied during a critical hit. Taking aim is a full-round action, and if the target moves more than 5 feet during that period, the bonus is lost. No additional benefit exists for spending more than 1 round aiming. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level, and the precision damage increases to +2d6 damage. Weapon Specialization: A deepwood sniper of 5th level or higher gains Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat. It must be applied to a bow or crossbow with which the sniper has taken the Weapon Focus feat. Ranged Precision: At 6th level, a deepwood sniper adds 30 feet to the range of all precision based damage (including her take aim ability, as well as sneak attack, sudden attack, and skirmish, as well as any others she might have). Camouflage (Ex): A deepwood sniper of 7th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. Greater Critical (Ex): At 10th level, the threat range of her bow or crossbow becomes triple its original value. So a crossbow's critical would become 15-20x2, and a bow's would become 18-20x3. This ability is applied to the bow or crossbow with which she gained the Improved Critical feat for at 2nd level.
Ranger REG 03-19-07, 01:43 AM	First off, I don't know about safe poison use. Personally, I like snipers to be an expert at long-distance ranged attack as a duelist is an expert at close-quarter melee combat. Even duelist does not rely on poison to defeat his opponent. That's the forte of the assassin.
Devlonir 03-19-07, 07:02 AM	A Sniper's main motivation is to kill his target without them noticing him.. so I don't think poison is really that strange an ability. Blinding poison, a crippling poison and so on really help. And don't forget, this isnt a highly trained army sniper, but more of a nature warrior who snipes from the trees and bushes and so on. It is a Deepwood Sniper afterall. Poison is a natural product, so it isn't that strange that an assassin of nature (what a deepwood sniper is) would use it. I like the overall feel of the class. But getting a 18-20/x3 crit on a longbow is really overpowered in my opinion. But every other thing i see in this class is pretty nice and follows the fluff of a deepwood sniper pretty well
Wolf_Boy 03-19-07, 07:50 AM	Maybe you should make the improved critical dependant upon the take aim ability.
starfire311 03-19-07, 08:55 AM	ok just some comments... I would put power critical in there somewhere. I would also take a look at this feat to replace your greater critical, I like it because it goes along with the original flavor of doing more damage on a crit. Greater Critical [Fighter] Prerequisites: Improved Critical, Power Critical, BAB +12 Choose a weapon that you have improved critical with. When wielding the chosen weapon, if you threaten a critical, make two critical rolls. If one succeeds then you confirm the critical as normal. If both critical rolls succeed, then you do additional damage based on the crit multiplier of the weapon. If the crit multiplier was x2 then resolve it as x3 instead, if it was x3 then resolve it as x5 , if it was x4 then resolve as x7. this is a feat I use in my games, also I do not let greater critical and improved critical stack For example with a Long bow Crit 20/x3 With Imp crit/greater crit on a 19 you just do the normal confirm for x3 on a 20 you do the greater crit. Another thing I would considor doing is instead of doing the +30ft for ranged precision, make it +5ft per level of DS, I prefer scaling abilities when possible, and at level 10 a +50ft instead of +30ft will not be game breaking.
The_Shaman 03-19-07, 09:18 AM	I think it can be fine as it is in MotW, possibly even with improved critical instead of the keen arrows feature. Sure, it's powerful - except it's completely foiled by a lvl 2/3 spell, and one of their best features - the insane range increments - requires a huge investment in spot and is extremely situational. I guess you could have it like that, but I think the devastating criticals it makes are what gives it flavor - like the peerless archer's bowslinging tricks. I would definitely boost the skill requirement for spot, though. In order to make the long-distance shots they do, they need to have great eyesight first. Maybe hide, too - while as snipers they probably aren't such great sneaks, they need to be really good in camouflage.
highbulp 03-19-07, 09:34 AM	I like the overall feel of the class. But getting a 18-20/x3 crit on a longbow is really overpowered in my opinion. But every other thing i see in this class is pretty nice and follows the fluff of a deepwood sniper pretty well I think it's Sean Reynolds who has a long argument about why it's not overpowered if keen and Imp Critical stack--with numbers to back him up (I think--I don't have the link to the article with me). So if you believe that, then the Greater Critical ability is in no way overpowered, since this is exactly what it does. Even if you don't buy that, I think it's a fine capstone ability for a 10-level PrC. Really, it's not mathematically much more damage than having Improved Crit with a Falchion (or any other 18-20 weapon). Sure, they can do it at range, but they spend 10 levels to get that ability. I like it.
The_Shaman 03-19-07, 03:31 PM	Keen and improved criticals did use to stack in 3.0, afaik. Considering that warriors are often considered weaker than mages, I'm a bit surprised they made sure they don't work together in 3.5. Seriously, how many people have played the original Deepwood sniper? I do think that in practice one can have quite a few problems relying on ranged damage and criticals, but I haven't played it myself.
UAMDB 03-19-07, 03:42 PM	Keen and improved criticals did use to stack in 3.0, afaik. Considering that warriors are often considered weaker than mages, I'm a bit surprised they made sure they don't work together in 3.5. Seriously, how many people have played the original Deepwood sniper? I do think that in practice one can have quite a few problems relying on ranged damage and criticals, but I haven't played it myself. I played one in 3.0 Had a fighter/wizard/Arcane Archer/Order of the Bow/Deep wood Sniper. He is beyond deadly, and protection from arrows would be used up with his first shot. The build is not as effective in 3.5 since the magic bonuses, and improved crit do not stack anymore.
RobbyPants 03-19-07, 03:43 PM	Maybe you should make the improved critical dependant upon the take aim ability. IMO, I think that would make it too weak, as take aim is a full-round action. ok just some comments... I would put power critical in there somewhere. Not a bad idea, but I'm not sure where it would fit. Perhaps in the list of bonus feats... I would also take a look at this feat to replace your greater critical, I like it because it goes along with the original flavor of doing more damage on a crit. Greater Critical [Fighter] Prerequisites: Improved Critical, Power Critical, BAB +12 Choose a weapon that you have improved critical with. When wielding the chosen weapon, if you threaten a critical, make two critical rolls. If one succeeds then you confirm the critical as normal. If both critical rolls succeed, then you do additional damage based on the crit multiplier of the weapon. If the crit multiplier was x2 then resolve it as x3 instead, if it was x3 then resolve it as x5 , if it was x4 then resolve as x7. this is a feat I use in my games, also I do not let greater critical and improved critical stack For example with a Long bow Crit 20/x3 With Imp crit/greater crit on a 19 you just do the normal confirm for x3 on a 20 you do the greater crit. I like the way you handled that, but I don't know that I need it for the level 10 capstone. I can see where people get the standard 3.5 knee-jerk reaction to increasing the threat range and the crit multiplier, but they are only allowed to increase each once. I think it's nicely toned down from the 3.0 version. Another thing I would considor doing is instead of doing the +30ft for ranged precision, make it +5ft per level of DS, I prefer scaling abilities when possible, and at level 10 a +50ft instead of +30ft will not be game breaking. Interesting idea... I guess I did it the way I did because these things always seem to work in 30 foot increments :P I would definitely boost the skill requirement for spot, though. In order to make the long-distance shots they do, they need to have great eyesight first. Maybe hide, too - while as snipers they probably aren't such great sneaks, they need to be really good in camouflage. Not a bad idea. I'm torn between 6 and 8 on these... When I make up my mind, I'll edit the OP. I'd have to look, but I think I just used the requirements from Masters of the Wild without modification. I never actually considered it before... I think it's Sean Reynolds who has a long argument about why it's not overpowered if keen and Imp Critical stack--with numbers to back him up (I think--I don't have the link to the article with me). So if you believe that, then the Greater Critical ability is in no way overpowered, since this is exactly what it does. Even if you don't buy that, I think it's a fine capstone ability for a 10-level PrC. Really, it's not mathematically much more damage than having Improved Crit with a Falchion (or any other 18-20 weapon). Sure, they can do it at range, but they spend 10 levels to get that ability. I like it. Thanks :D Espescially seen as how it's tied to a ranged weapon, I don't think it has a huge potential for abuse, and as you said, it's a 10-level dip to get to this ability. Seriously, how many people have played the original Deepwood sniper? I do think that in practice one can have quite a few problems relying on ranged damage and criticals, but I haven't played it myself. I've never played the original 3.0 version. I had a character aspiring for the PrC, but I quit playing him before hand. I had a player that wanted to play one, but I don't remember her actually doing it. She's actually playing this posted version right now, and I think she's level 3 (in the PrC). I think her current build is wood elf Ftr2 / Rog2 / Rng2 / DwSn 3. A lot of multi-classing, but it's fairly effective... Thanks for all the input so far everyone! :D I look forward to getting more!
highbulp 03-19-07, 04:08 PM	I played one in 3.0 Had a fighter/wizard/Arcane Archer/Order of the Bow/Deep wood Sniper. He is beyond deadly, and protection from arrows would be used up with his first shot. You mean that a (probably) 15-20th level character could bust through a 2nd level spell in one round?! The horror!
UAMDB 03-19-07, 04:32 PM	You mean that a (probably) 15-20th level character could bust through a 2nd level spell in one round?! The horror! I know its game breaking powerful. However someone else above said that the class is foiled by 2/3 level spell. I am not sure which they meant, but assumed they ment Prot from arrows.
UAMDB 03-19-07, 04:38 PM	Ok I think the class is not over balanced. The way I read it the take aim ability is weak, but the greater improved Crit ability at 10th level is nice. You have to spend round 1 aiming, hope the target does not move more than 5ft, then you get 1 attack on round 2. Does not seem worth it. I might be misreading it. Also I would either make Precise shot a Pre-reg or give it as a bonus feat. After all right not it can not shot in to combat without a penalty. Just some food for thought.
starfire311 03-19-07, 04:44 PM	I know its game breaking powerful. However someone else above said that the class is foiled by 2/3 level spell. I am not sure which they meant, but assumed they ment Prot from arrows. I assumed he meant windwall
The_Shaman 03-19-07, 06:26 PM	Yep, it is Wind Wall. Although, PfA is good for that first shot - since chances are the sniper will go first, and it has a huge duration. However, wind wall is accessible to almost all casters - except paladins and bards - and is basically completely impenetrable by anything less than a throwing weapon.
Ranger REG 03-19-07, 08:19 PM	A Sniper's main motivation is to kill his target without them noticing him.. so I don't think poison is really that strange an ability. Perhaps, but I'd rather his abilities is to improve weapon's function to the capability of "one shot, one kill." Otherwise, if he wishes to employ poison use -- even to craft his own -- he should consider multiclassing the assassin class.
The_Shaman 03-19-07, 08:51 PM	I wouldn't worry about poison - imo it definitely fits the "one shot-one kill" approach, it's just that the shot has something more to worry about than the physical wound. After all, the job of a deepwood sniper is, imo, to eliminate someone from an extra-long distance and ideally without being seen; hence, getting the maximum out of the (possibly few) shots they can make would be an important consideration. It's a dirty tactic, perhaps, but essentially we are talking about a sniper, not a duelist :) .
RobbyPants 03-20-07, 09:27 AM	The way I read it the take aim ability is weak, but the greater improved Crit ability at 10th level is nice. You have to spend round 1 aiming, hope the target does not move more than 5ft, then you get 1 attack on round 2. Does not seem worth it. I might be misreading it. I'll have to look at my wording again... The idea is that it's a full-round action, so you can do it all on your turn, but you only get one shot. It's more supposed to be handy for when you need to boost your attack bonus, but I will agree that it is a bit on the weak side (compared to a full-attack, possibly with rapid-shot added). As for the not moving more than five feet, that was something left in from the 3.0 version. In actual, technical game mechanics, I guess the only way to thwart that is to ready an action to move (which seems like a bit of a waste). I could change that to that they could not have moved more than 5 feet on their previous action (representing them being stationary). Perhaps it needs a rewording...
starfire311 03-20-07, 04:22 PM	I'll have to look at my wording again... The idea is that it's a full-round action, so you can do it all on your turn, but you only get one shot. It's more supposed to be handy for when you need to boost your attack bonus, but I will agree that it is a bit on the weak side (compared to a full-attack, possibly with rapid-shot added). As for the not moving more than five feet, that was something left in from the 3.0 version. In actual, technical game mechanics, I guess the only way to thwart that is to ready an action to move (which seems like a bit of a waste). I could change that to that they could not have moved more than 5 feet on their previous action (representing them being stationary). Perhaps it needs a rewording... Atually the ability is meant so you spend 1 full round aiming, this means you start on your turn and you get the shot next turn. You notice the text "taking aim is a full round action" this grants you a +2 to attack and possibly a +1D6 to damage, on your attacks against that target. this seems to last untill they move more than 5ft. The whole point of this ability is for sniping, if your target is aware of you this ability is not going to be very good. IMO it is mostly a flavor ability since most of the time your target is aware of you.
Ranger REG 03-20-07, 05:07 PM	I wouldn't worry about poison - imo it definitely fits the "one shot-one kill" approach, it's just that the shot has something more to worry about than the physical wound. After all, the job of a deepwood sniper is, imo, to eliminate someone from an extra-long distance and ideally without being seen; hence, getting the maximum out of the (possibly few) shots they can make would be an important consideration. It's a dirty tactic, perhaps, but essentially we are talking about a sniper, not a duelist :) . Shrugs Your Campaign, Your Rules.
dman11235 02-20-08, 09:35 AM	This is not only a bump because I like the idea of updating this class, but I thought I'd chime in here and say that Take Aim is suffering from the same problem as the OotBI Ranged Precision ability does. In fact, I think RP may be a better ability than this: less time, more damage, still one shot. The attack bonus is nice, but it's not anywhere near enough to justify the ability.
The_Shaman 02-20-08, 12:49 PM	Shrugs Your Campaign, Your Rules. It's a matter of concept, not rules. If you think they don't care about poison, sure. The MotW class had it anyway, so I thought there's no harm to keep it, but YMMV. Shrugs Peace.