Post/Author/DateTime	Post
squirrelbate 10-22-03, 12:21 AM	Is anybody else very disappointed with 3.5 druids? I'm an avid fan of druids and I'm having a very hard time staying with the class. First of all, there was the cutback on animal companion hit dice back in MotW. Animal companions in 3.5, I must say, are my favorite aspect of Druid. Wild shape, however, has become quite disappointing. No special qualities? No scent? No low-light vision? No darkvision? Wild shape has pretty much become the polymorph spell, a spell that wizards will eventually get anyway. Also, I've always been rather perturbed by the way clerics seem to get just about every druid spell and druids get still get such a small fraction of cleric spells. So is anybody else tired of druids getting crapped on by Wizards in favor of wizards and clerics, or am I just out of my mind? More than anything I'm just sad that I might not be able to play my favorite class and still keep up in a high-power party.
Zardnaar 10-22-03, 12:29 AM	Er dude. druids got powered up in 3.5. In alot of parties they're replacing the wizard or fighter. They'e dumped weapon restrictions on them, added spontaneous casting and powered up alot of Druid spells. Animal companions gain abilities similar to a Paladins mount and I suggest you read the feats natural spell and augment summoning. They've also made wild armor ability core rules as well.
Elendur 10-22-03, 12:42 AM	Wild armor ability? I've houseruled the special qualities back in to wildshape, but I'm on the lookout for any abuse.(The druid in my campaign is 6th level so nothing has come up yet.)
Blackrock_Clan 10-22-03, 01:18 AM	If a druid can't wear studded leather armor and does not like metal then why can she use a scimitars,short spears, spears, and daggers but she can't use a bow!!! I could see using woodshape to make a wood scimitar then cast iron wood on it same thing with armor or any other metal weapons if any one else has a problem with this give just reply
Goth 10-22-03, 01:40 AM	I'm playing a druid, 3rd level now, in a game. So far, I've seen nothing but good changes, but then, I didn't notice the change to the wild shape. I'll have to look into that closer, because I was under the notion that once he can change into, say a wolf, he would have the scent ability, and so on. If that has changed, then I'd be seriously dissappointed in the wild shape now. But, everything else looked great. Go back to 3.0, and look at the 3rd level Call Lightning spell, and compare it to the new 3.5. Also, at first I didn't think the spontaneous summoning was worth much. Already at level three, I've used it to great advantage. Had a spell memmed that I just couldn't use. As an afterthought, I summoned a wolf because I didn't have anything else to that round. The wolf proceeded to take some heat off my druid. I'm now a big fan of this added versatility. :) As far as weapons go, except for the scimitar and sickle, all the other weapons have little metal in them. The scimitar, as I've read in another post, closely resembles a weapon actually used by celtic druids back in the day, so they added the closest equivalent. The only thing I can say about the sickle... agricultural? I don't know. *shrugs* I do agree about the bow, though. At least they're not specifically restricted from them now. An elven druid would be a good way to avoid taking a feat for it.
Druid Roxors 10-22-03, 02:36 AM	Tell me your level and what you are doing, and ill tell you whats wrong. The druid is a strong class in nearly every level, and you dont have to be a demented min-maxer to notice it. In fact, Druids are (in my opinion) the most powerful class this game has to offer.
Sir Ferdinand 10-22-03, 06:29 AM	Wild shape has pretty much become the polymorph spell, a spell that wizards will eventually get anyway. I thought you were talking about Druids here? What does it matter if Wizards will get Polymorph spells, because it's the Druid which gets it as a class ability and is therefore better option. Otherwise you'd have to memorize it and "lose" some other spell for that. Also, I've always been rather perturbed by the way clerics seem to get just about every druid spell and druids get still get such a small fraction of cleric spells. Remember that Druids have tons of other class abilities, Clerics have Turn Undead and Domain powers only. In 3.5, Druids get some special ability ever level except on 17th and 19th levels. Clerics get those two abilities at 1st level, and that's it.
Dalaeck 10-22-03, 10:05 AM	:OMG! Dissapointed yes! But because of it being the pet class of 3.5! Please, please tell us your level. Some additional points beyond the good ones above, did you know that: *the "beast" category is gone - you can wildshape into dinosaurs *the "dire" category is gone - dire animals are animals and so you can wildshape at lv.5 into a dire weasel for instance *wildshape grants extroadinary special attacks - dire weasel's blood drain for 1d4 con no save. *there is 3300 GP dragon hide full plate available for druids *you can wear a monk's belt *you wildshape into a plant *wildshape grants you the con bonus of the critter - try a wolverine with 19 con *wildshape now gives you the subtype - plants are immune to criticals (vorpal weapons?), mind-affecting spells (power-words), etc.. *you have an Uber-familiar *you can wildshape then with natural spell cast "spider climb" and "jump" or even polymorph other people into nice fat rats while in the form of a nearly silent owl *Spot and Listen are class skills now for druids The list goes on and on...
lbaron 10-22-03, 10:13 AM	on the scimitar issue, look at it this way the scimitar is a curved blade resembeling a half moon, a huge focus point in Druidic Religion (both in history and in DnD 2nd edition) therefore the reason why druids where able to use the scimitar is b/c its like a holy symbol in a way.
Hogre 10-22-03, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by squirrelbate First of all, there was the cutback on animal companion hit dice back in MotW. That was a clarification, not a change. Adventuring druids were always limited to their hitdice in animal companions. This however was badly placed in the DMG. The information really belonged in the PHB under the druid class. Why they didn't do it that way was probably an oversight.
lukelightning 10-22-03, 10:38 AM	I found the 3.5 druid's animal companion to be much more powerful than in 3.0. The HD of the animals are close enought to what you could get in 3.0, but at least now the animals can get more powerful, get stronger and better armor, and not die as easily. Wildshape 3.5 has some problems (we've houseruled that you get all the abilities of an animal form, otherwise you can't hold your breath particularly long as a crocodile, etc.). But the great thing is they got rid of the "wait til 12th level to turn into a dire animal" rule. So now your level 8 druid can turn into a dire ape and get reach, or a dire bat, dire lion (which actually isn't as good as a plain old tiger), etc. And with the now-official natural spell feat, you can cast spells in wildshape form, even if they have a material component. Turn into an eagle fly around, spot enemies, cast call lightning. Turn into a tiger and spend most of your time in that form...you can still cast spells (sure, you can't talk to the other players, but maybe you're adventuring with a wizard who has a cat familiar...in tiger form you can talk to other felines, and the cat can be an interpreter between you and the wizard...) Originally posted by lbaron on the scimitar issue, look at it this way the scimitar is a curved blade resembeling a half moon, a huge focus point in Druidic Religion (both in history and in DnD 2nd edition) therefore the reason why druids where able to use the scimitar is b/c its like a holy symbol in a way. Not this old arguement. Actually the scimitar was given to druids in D&D because of the myths from the Romans that the druids used golden sickles to harvest mistletoe (there is no proof of this..especially considering gold makes terrible blades). And I guess scimitars are closer to sickles than, um, greatswords are. It wasn't anything to do with the moon, unless you think the sickle had moon symbolism, and it is more likely that if they did use a sickle to harvest something, it is because that is what sickles are for.
Hogre 10-22-03, 11:19 AM	I thought they used silver sickles. Are you sure it was gold?
mkred23 10-22-03, 11:46 AM	I am helping a friend make a 7th lvl Druid. she had the 19,000 to spend on eq.. As far as spells go she already took call lightning, poison and flame strike as spells. Also thought she could use a bow... she is an elf.. any help on armor , weapons , accessories, or othe eq would be great.. Mike
Lago AM3P 10-22-03, 12:25 PM	IMO, the druid class (except for elves :rolleyes: ) actually got weaker, due mostly to changes in class abilities and the spell list. But the polymorph mechanic actually got MORE broken in edition, so the druid class simply seems more powerful.
lukelightning 10-22-03, 12:31 PM	Yup, I'm sure it's gold. The problem is that all information about the druids is pretty much subject to speculation. Most accounts come from Julius Caesar, who relied on other people as well, and they often used the term "druid" to mean any religious type of whatever tribe they encountered. Regardless, weapon choice for druids is no longer limited by some dumb religious vow. Armor use still is (no worked metal) but that is more consistant, and I would rule that druids can use metal armor but then suffer a chance spell failure (I don't like the whole "strip 'em of their powers" thing for something so minor as wearing metal). Originally posted by Hogre I thought they used silver sickles. Are you sure it was gold?
squirrelbate 10-22-03, 12:34 PM	Well I thank a bunch of you guys for bringing some things to my attention. I guess I was moreso frustrated that my "old style" druid is simply different now. I do have one question though, if anybody thinks they can answer. Back in 3.0 and MotW it stated explicitly that a change in druid's con (due to wild shape) did not give them extra hp. However, I can find no example of this in 3.5. Neither the wild shape nor polymorph entries go further than just noting that you regain hp as if you rested a day. Anybody know the official ruling on this?
melkoriii 10-22-03, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by Dalaeck :OMG! Dissapointed yes! But because of it being the pet class of 3.5! Please, please tell us your level. Some additional points beyond the good ones above, did you know that: *the "beast" category is gone - you can wildshape into dinosaurs *the "dire" category is gone - dire animals are animals and so you can wildshape at lv.5 into a dire weasel for instance *wildshape grants extroadinary special attacks - dire weasel's blood drain for 1d4 con no save. *there is 3300 GP dragon hide full plate available for druids *you can wear a monk's belt *you wildshape into a plant *wildshape grants you the con bonus of the critter - try a wolverine with 19 con *wildshape now gives you the subtype - plants are immune to criticals (vorpal weapons?), mind-affecting spells (power-words), etc.. *you have an Uber-familiar *you can wildshape then with natural spell cast "spider climb" and "jump" or even polymorph other people into nice fat rats while in the form of a nearly silent owl *Spot and Listen are class skills now for druids The list goes on and on... Sorry Dalaeck, You dont get the qualitys of the type/sub-type. No dire weasel's blood drain. You still can be crited and are affected by mind-affect spells even in Plant form. Go read the spell Polymorph and Alter Self to see how Wildshape works in 3.5. Also by the read of the spells, your HP's do not change with the CON change when Wildshaped (Though I personaly think they do, most dont)
Nifft 10-22-03, 02:03 PM	3.5e Druids absolutely rock! They're better thought out than 3.0 Druids, and they are effective in a wide variety of situations and environments. I'm a huge fan of the changes made, since I really like the Druid concept. -- N
Druid Roxors 10-22-03, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by squirrelbate Well I thank a bunch of you guys for bringing some things to my attention. I guess I was moreso frustrated that my "old style" druid is simply different now. I do have one question though, if anybody thinks they can answer. Back in 3.0 and MotW it stated explicitly that a change in druid's con (due to wild shape) did not give them extra hp. However, I can find no example of this in 3.5. Neither the wild shape nor polymorph entries go further than just noting that you regain hp as if you rested a day. Anybody know the official ruling on this? I think it was Andy Collins who said that changes in constitution DID affect the result your hp total with the new polymorph rules. Only constitution, not the total hp or hd-hp of the creature. I think i can remember something about the quote... Something about the lines of: But be careful, changing back from a high constitution form can be dangerous if you are low on hitpoints. (since you loose the hitpoints granted from the const boost) Edit: Wildshape is better than polymorph in this ways: - Longer Duration (1h/L) - No hd restriction - Proeficiency with Natural Weapons (druid class feature) - No attack of oportunity - Cannot be dispelled/counterspelled - Cannot be interrupted - Huge shape - Animal Spell Synergy
Quenthel Baenre 10-22-03, 02:36 PM	Being able to gain the extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of an elemental as well as its feats is also a high-level use of wildshape that shouldn't be overlooked.
Tae Kwon Dan 10-22-03, 02:41 PM	Originally posted by melkoriii Sorry Dalaeck, You dont get the qualitys of the type/sub-type. No dire weasel's blood drain. You still can be crited and are affected by mind-affect spells even in Plant form. Go read the spell Polymorph and Alter Self to see how Wildshape works in 3.5. Also by the read of the spells, your HP's do not change with the CON change when Wildshaped (Though I personaly think they do, most dont) Uhm, a lot of that is not correct. This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. And while I don't agree with it the Sage has ruled that you gain HP from your new CON score so you do get HP as well.
Dalaeck 10-22-03, 02:44 PM	Originally posted by melkoriii Sorry Dalaeck, You dont get the qualitys of the type/sub-type. From the SRD, polymorph, last sentence of first paragraph: The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. No dire weasel's blood drain. From the SRD, polymorph, last sentence of third paragraph: It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Dire weasel's blood drain is an an extroadinary special attack, as well is its attach ability. So is a dire ape's "rend", a dire badger's "rage", a dire boar's "ferocity" a deinonychthus' "pounce" and even a dire rat's "disease". You still can be crited and are affected by mind-affect spells even in Plant form. Subtype is granted. Plants are immune to these. Trust me. 3.5 polymorph is insane .
lukelightning 10-22-03, 02:47 PM	Wildshape does have a HD restriction...you can't wildshape into somthing of more HD than you; that is one of the features it retains from polymorph. Otherwise a level 8 druid could turn into a dire bear or dire tiger. Originally posted by Druid Roxors Edit: Wildshape is better than polymorph in this ways: - Longer Duration (1h/L) - No hd restriction - Proeficiency with Natural Weapons (druid class feature) - No attack of oportunity - Cannot be dispelled/counterspelled - Cannot be interrupted - Huge shape - Animal Spell Synergy
Tae Kwon Dan 10-22-03, 02:51 PM	Daleack, just double checked and noticed something. Traits of a Type are listed under Special Qualities, so technically you don't get them, which would seem like a good idea, but only makes everything more confusing. :rolleyes:
Dalaeck 10-22-03, 03:31 PM	I think Tae Kwon Dan that those are not extroadinary special qualities. They are plain special qualities. I think the extroadinary ones are "blindsight", "scent", etc... basically everything in the caption for the specific creature is out - type benefits are in. I could be wrong though.
Zardnaar 10-22-03, 03:38 PM	Must be a conjunction of the moons or something. I'm more or less agreeing with Dalaeck here.:D I've always liked Druids going back to 1st/2nd ed. The only tweaking IMHO they needed was weapon restrictions removed and wildshape being clarified. Now they're slightly to good I think. I would rather play one than a Cleric or Arcane caster(I don't really like clerics or wizzie types anyways). Dalaeck seems to have issues with the spells longstrider and spiderclimb being available to Druids. IMHO these are relatively minor and trivial spells compared to the goodness of other Druid abilities. Wildshape I can handle. I don't believe arcane casters should have a total monopoly on this type of ability. Dire animals I can also handle but when you add elementals, plants, dinosaurs etc etc and in both 3.0/3.5 they've had trouble with shapechange type magics and theres alot of potential for abuse. Its not like the Druid was a weak class in 3.0 to warrent all of these powerups- and this was my favourite class. A no brainer Druid build is something like this. Human Feats 1. Improved Initiative, Spell focus Conjuration 3. Augment Summoning 6. Natural Spell 9. Craft Magic Arms and Armor (debatable. depends if the DM is handing out that wild armor you want. Its a nice feat to have anyways). Or a Elf dropping improved initiative to level 12 and using bows and swords in the lower levels. To me natural spell is a bigger no brainer feat for a Druid to take than 3.0 spell focus (might houserule spell focus back to 3.0 and remove greater spell focus from the game).
hiryuu 10-22-03, 03:38 PM	Originally posted by mkred23 I am helping a friend make a 7th lvl Druid. she had the 19,000 to spend on eq.. As far as spells go she already took call lightning, poison and flame strike as spells. Also thought she could use a bow... she is an elf.. any help on armor , weapons , accessories, or othe eq would be great.. Mike Here's the cool part....she can. Druids are not limited in their weapons choices except by their proficiencies. Elven druids can use a longsword and bow.
Jparkero 10-22-03, 04:02 PM	I have a quick question. Does a druid's Animal Companion increase in size from the levels it gains by being with the druid? pg 36 in 3.5 PHB says it "gains additional points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice (see the Monster manual)" but says nothing in that line about size change. I have arguements for either stance, but am wondering if there's been any official ruling. :behold:
squirrelbate 10-22-03, 04:05 PM	Tae Kwon Do, where is that ruling for additional hp with con in wild shape? I.E., where did you find that ruling, I'd like to have a look at it.
melkoriii 10-22-03, 04:24 PM	Originally posted by Dalaeck From the SRD, polymorph, last sentence of first paragraph: The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. From the SRD, polymorph, last sentence of third paragraph: It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Dire weasel's blood drain is an an extroadinary special attack, as well is its attach ability. So is a dire ape's "rend", a dire badger's "rage", a dire boar's "ferocity" a deinonychthus' "pounce" and even a dire rat's "disease". Subtype is granted. Plants are immune to these. Trust me. 3.5 polymorph is insane . Its amazing the differences in interpitation from this board and the enworld board. Enworld has much more strict rules lawyers. I was mistacken by the Dire Weasels Blood Drain (thught it was SU not EX ability) On Type and Sub-type all of these abilitys are listed under (extraordinary special qualities ) and so you do NOT get them when Polymorphing or Whildshape. Also Low-light vision, scent etc are listed under (special qualities ) and so are not gained ether.
Zardnaar 10-22-03, 04:25 PM	Originally posted by squirrelbate Tae Kwon Do, where is that ruling for additional hp with con in wild shape? I.E., where did you find that ruling, I'd like to have a look at it. I could be wrong but I bekieve they removed the sentence from the polymorph spells that in 3.0 said something like. "hit points don't change with the new con score". Or something like that.
melkoriii 10-22-03, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by Zardnaar I could be wrong but I bekieve they removed the sentence from the polymorph spells that in 3.0 said something like. "hit points don't change with the new con score". Or something like that. No that sentence is in Alter Self From SRD "Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. " The agrument is that it says Hit Points not Base hit points. I personaly think it should change with the Con change. but..
Tae Kwon Dan 10-22-03, 07:13 PM	Originally posted by squirrelbate Tae Kwon Do, where is that ruling for additional hp with con in wild shape? I.E., where did you find that ruling, I'd like to have a look at it. Here you go :) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104468)
Druid Roxors 10-22-03, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by lukelightning Wildshape does have a HD restriction...you can't wildshape into somthing of more HD than you; that is one of the features it retains from polymorph. Otherwise a level 8 druid could turn into a dire bear or dire tiger. Yes, yes, I ment two things with this. The Max HD 15 restriction and the fact that you could become an advanced creature. (under my reading)
Goth 10-22-03, 11:22 PM	Alright, now I'm just confused by a couple of things. Allow me to site an example, and you folks could say "yeah" or "nay" on what you can do... You have a druid that just made level 5. He can now wildshape. You want to wildshape into a wolf. Wolf stats are (with some things left out): HD: 2d8+4 (13hp) Initiative: +2 (Dex) Speed: 50ft. AC: 14 (+2Dex, +2Natural) Attacks: Bite+3 Melee Damage: Bite 1d6+1 Special Attack: Trip Special Abilities: Scent Saves: Fort+5, Ref +5, Will +1 Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Hide +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +4, Spot +4, W. Lore +1 Feats: Weapon Finesse (Bite) Now... When you change to a wolf, at level 5, what do you get, and what do you lose, between your character and your wolf form? -I'm mainly confused about the HD. Do you still get your 5d8, or do you now have 2d8 until the change expires? Seems like you are limiting yourself, if you can only change into an animal with equal or less HD than you. And without Special or extraordinary abilites, becoming a wolf would seem pointless. -As far as abilities, what if your str or dex or con are better than the animal's? -Is the feat weapon finesse: Bite considered an ability, or a special or extraordinary ability? -At level 18, are you now restricted from changing into an animal with more than 15HD? Same questions about HD apply here. Will you lose HD when you finally become an elemental?
Druid Roxors 10-23-03, 12:27 AM	Originally posted by Goth Alright, now I'm just confused by a couple of things. Allow me to site an example, and you folks could say "yeah" or "nay" on what you can do... You have a druid that just made level 5. He can now wildshape. You want to wildshape into a wolf. Wolf stats are (with some things left out): HD: 2d8+4 (13hp) Initiative: +2 (Dex) Speed: 50ft. AC: 14 (+2Dex, +2Natural) Attacks: Bite+3 Melee Damage: Bite 1d6+1 Special Attack: Trip Special Abilities: Scent Saves: Fort+5, Ref +5, Will +1 Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Hide +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +4, Spot +4, W. Lore +1 Feats: Weapon Finesse (Bite) Now... When you change to a wolf, at level 5, what do you get, and what do you lose, between your character and your wolf form?Ill try to explain myself as best as I can. -I'm mainly confused about the HD. Do you still get your 5d8, or do you now have 2d8 until the change expires? Seems like you are limiting yourself, if you can only change into an animal with equal or less HD than you. And without Special or extraordinary abilites, becoming a wolf would seem pointless.Your HD remains constant. You still have 5d8 no matter what creature you transform into. With this in mind, the hp granted by HD does not change. In the other hand, you have to adjust your constitution just as it were a buff or penalty. For instance: Your Druid has Constitution 18 and total hp of 45. This hp is composed of 8 + 1d8 X 4 AND your constitution bonus that would be your level (5) times your const modifier (4). Once you transform into a wolf, your hp granted by level advancement and hitdie will not change, BUT hp granted by your high constitution score will change. In other words, you adopt the wolf's constitution score, even if its lower, and change your hp respectively. In the above example, you would have a modifier of +2 thanks to your wolf form's 15 constitution. 2 X 5 = 10 (in wolf form) while you had 4 X 5 = 20 (in human form). That way, your new hp would be reduced by 10 giving you a total of 35. -As far as abilities, what if your str or dex or con are better than the animal's?You gain lower scores, a lower constitution like in the above example reduces your concentration skill acordingly as well as your fortitude save. -Is the feat weapon finesse: Bite considered an ability, or a special or extraordinary ability?you can gain weapon finesse on a type of natural attack, be it bite, tail, claw, etc. If you get "bite" it will apply to any form in which you have a bite attack. Bite, is not an ability or extraordinary ability, it is, in fact, a light weapon that does piercing and bludgening damage (if I remember correctly). Since it is a weapon, you can finesse it, Although that is pretty useless since most cool animals have a higher strenght score, Focus, imp critical, and others, are better feats. (you could even try and convince your dm into letting you have imp natural attack (claw)) -At level 18, are you now restricted from changing into an animal with more than 15HD? Same questions about HD apply here. Will you lose HD when you finally become an elemental? The exeption on the Druid Wildshape entry, the 15 hd limit for polymorph does not apply to wildshape. all other questions are answered above.
Goth 10-23-03, 01:15 AM	Druid Roxors, thanks. That clarified a lot of things that confused me on this thread.
Druid Roxors 10-23-03, 01:17 AM	Originally posted by Goth Druid Roxors, thanks. That clarified a lot of things that confused me on this thread. Anytime :)
youspoonybard 10-23-03, 10:30 AM	The only way that things that Andy has said that Wild Shaping Druid do get (for example, Plant forms' Immunity to Crits) requires, AFAIK, this interpretation. You gain the type of the creature you turn into. This means that you DO get the special qualities that are given by that type, shown in the back of the MM. For example, Animals get Low-Light Vision, while Plants have Immunity to Crits, amongst other things. You get the special attacks of the SPECIFIC creature you turn into. You don't get the special qualities of the SPECIFIC creature you turn into. This means that, in Plant Form, you don't get the "Plant Traits" listed under Special Qualities. But you already have those, and don't need them from Special Qualities. Net result: You do gain the overall traits of that type, as listed in the back of the MM. You don't gain specifics of any animal/plant. Also note the +1 racial skill bonus on Survival, when "tracking by scent". If you were tracking, I'd give you that bonus in wolf form; you do retain racial skill bonuses and feats when you Wild Shape into an animal/plant.
Dalaeck 10-23-03, 11:16 AM	Exactly my reading as well. You do not get the special qualities of the new form, you do get the type, the general qualities of all creatures of that type. So while a tendriculous might have "regeneration" you won't when wildshaped into one, but you will be a "plant" for all other purposes including darkvision, immunity to crits, etc...
startide 10-23-03, 11:24 AM	deleted
Elendur 10-23-03, 11:36 AM	To the person who had questions on weapon finesse. Wolves don't have weapon finesse in 3.5 They have weapon focus bite instead. If you look at the MM entry for the wolf, you'll see there are feats listed. The feats with little 'b' by them are racial bonus feats, and I'd rule that you get these feats just like you get racial skill bonuses. The other feats are the normal feats a monster gains for its hit die, you do not get these feats, you keep your own feats as normal. So for wildshaping into a wolf, you get track, but not weapon focus bite. As mentioned earlier, if you took weapon focus bite as your own feat, it would apply to a bite in any form.
Kage Wellby 10-23-03, 11:49 AM	Changes to the spell Shapechange + Share Spells companion ability = a pair of dragons breathing fire on the enemy, even if you DO have to stand side by side. Or you can shapechange your tiger companion into a dragon, yourself into a giant, and ride on his back. He pounces and rakes (getting all the normal dragon attacks, PLUS 2 more claws for rake attacks), you enjoy the fact that YOUR dragon is badder than THE dragon, and you wait til he takes damage and heal him. Something I've been having lots of fun with in an Oriental Adventures campaign with a shaman for some time now. Then again, we're at epic levels, and a pair of Brachyuruses is fun too, especially when you've also got the cleric 'attack and damage bonus' spells from the Hero Domain. Obviously druids don't have those spells, but hey, nothing's perfect.
melkoriii 10-23-03, 01:20 PM	Wow its amazing how you can read "you do not get any of the new forms special qualities" as saying "You do get the types special qualities." special qualities are special qualities. You dont get them period. I could give a rats a$$ what Andy has to say. if they want to errata it then cool but untill them. No special qualities (thats all of them) Is this forum full of 13 year old munchkins? So far in the past month, all I see is power gameing and Munchkinisum in this place. Vast liberal readings of the rules and half "quotes" of Andy or the Sage from non errata sorces. Its really sad.
youspoonybard 10-23-03, 03:37 PM	That's what I thought at first, but I have to disagree with you. The text here doesn't specifically state one way or another. You clearly do not get the special qualities granted by the form, but that has nothing to do with the qualities granted by type. Specifically, under Polymorph, it says that "The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form (see the Monster Manual for more information)." Why would they reference the type area in the MM if it was just an open-and-shut case as you say? I'm not trying to be a "munchkin", and I bet that most people on these boards aren't either. I'm just trying to find the intent of the rules. I don't argue that Animal Companions gain size increases, I don't argue that Sunder can be used more than once a round, I don't argue that Wild Armor still counts as wearing no armor for purposes of the Monk's Belt and the like. But there are a bunch of grey areas in the rules right now; such as Animal Companions: are they an Animal or a Magical Beast? Does Polymorphing's change in Constitution modifier change your HP? What exactly do you get when you Wild Shape? I honestly couldn't care less which way it goes; I just want to do things right. I DM the game! Bringing up quotes from the designers of the game, which clearly show intent, show that this is what it's supposed to be. Some people, like myself, find it helpful; other people, like yourself, find it being "Power-gamey" and "Munchkin" like. That's fine. In your game, play as you wish. If your player brings up one of my quotes and tries to convince you otherwise, say "That's not how I play in my game. This is how I read the rules." Talk to your players about it. It's what I always do when one of these quotes come up; I talk to the players about my interpretation of the rules, discuss possible abuses and other consequences. Discussion is the key step here. For example, I didn't think a person falling through someone's threatened square provoked an AoO; one of my players noted that a Level 18 Monk who ran through such a square did. After some debate, I thought he was right, and ruled that way. But for people like myself, knowing what the designers were thinking is a nice thing to know in these discussions. The game was balanced around how the designers interpreted the rules, AFAIK. I'm sorry if I have offended you in my previous statement; but please keep in mind that people not yourself may find this to be of interest. A simple "The rules say otherwise..." is, of course, welcomed, but calling confused people trying to figure out the rules "munchkins" is really excessive and false.
Dalaeck 10-23-03, 04:55 PM	Melkorii, it says you get the creature's type. It says you don't get the extroadinary special qualities of the specific creature. It does not say you don't get the extroadinary special qualities of the type. This is not too hard a concept to grasp. You see the last sentence as trumping the first, we don't because their objects are different. Now do you mind changing your tone a little? I don't see anyone else saying you have a "vast liberal and sad munchin reading of the rules". The fact of the matter is people can and will have different interpretations of the very same literal reading of law. Emphasis can be placed on sentence and paragraph structure. This is done every single day in the courts of our country and others. It is quite literally the way the world works.
Tae Kwon Dan 10-23-03, 04:56 PM	Actually by a reading of the rules spoony, Daleack, and I are right, because it specifically says extraordinary special qualities are not granted. Since Traits are just a special quality and not listed as an Extraordinary ability of the creature then you are entitled to them. And I love being called a munchkin\power gamer, because I said earlier that giving out Type and Traits, and therefore becoming immune to certain spells\attacks, is a bad idea and part of the unnecessary power up of the 3.5 Druid. :rolleyes:
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-23-03, 05:33 PM	WotC has not been clear on what is Ex and what is not, however. The tanar'ri subtype gives no type, yet it's clear the poison immunity is Ex.
Frank5471UK 10-25-03, 05:09 AM	Originally posted by Zardnaar A no brainer Druid build is something like this. Human Feats 1. Improved Initiative, Spell focus Conjuration 3. Augment Summoning 6. Natural Spell 9. Craft Magic Arms and Armor (debatable. depends if the DM is handing out that wild armor you want. Its a nice feat to have anyways). Hmmm, not sure I either understand or agree here. Firstly, Improved Initiative isn't that brilliant for a Druid with an Animal Companion. If you are intending to make use of the share spells ability, the Druid and the Animal must remain within 5' of each other. Inevitably, this will mean either the Druid or the Animal delaying their initiative until the other is ready to go and then moving consecutively. For one of the pair to have Improved Initiative and the other not seems a bit wasteful. Secondly, of what use is Spell Focus to conjuration spells ? Spell Focus increases the DC of spells cast by you. As far as I can see, conjuration spells rarely have saving throws associated with them. Am I missing something obvious? Finally, there is no way I would delay taking Augment Summoning till 3rd level.
Frank5471UK 10-25-03, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by Frank5471UK Secondly, of what use is Spell Focus to conjuration spells ? Spell Focus increases the DC of spells cast by you. As far as I can see, conjuration spells rarely have saving throws associated with them. Am I missing something obvious? OK, OK, so I type without thinking. OF COURSE Spell Focus (Conjuration) is a prerequisite for Augment Summoning :-) Other than that, is it of any use at all ?
Druid Roxors 10-25-03, 04:54 PM	Originally posted by Frank5471UK OK, OK, so I type without thinking. OF COURSE Spell Focus (Conjuration) is a prerequisite for Augment Summoning :-) Other than that, is it of any use at all ? Considering the druid is probably the best summoner in the game... +2hp/hd +2 Dmg +2 Attack +2 Fort. Its pretty good considering, for example, that the elementals a druid can summon have huge HD. A level 17 Druid with improved initiative gets his turn earlier, he waits till EVERYONE has had his action for the turn and then starts his summoning (1 full round) spell. This to avoid any interruptions this turn. Next turn, with this improved initiative, he reduces his intrruption chances by completing the summoning spell earlier. Now, argument summoning makes the standard Greater Earth Elemental Almost as powerful as the Elder elemental. Considering that sacrificing a level 9 spell will yield 1d4+1 Greater Earth elementals... 2 slams +25 melee (2d10+12) <----- Attack and damage (a little lower than the elder, by two attack points. Higher damage tho, No imp critical) 241 hp <------ More than the elder elemental Same feats, damage reduction, Traits, Etc. So, practically you summon 1d4+1 "Elder Elementals" when you use the feat. Surround the mage this round and he will never see the light again.
Wind Owl 10-25-03, 05:20 PM	Um, I have a question to which I can't find the answer to anywhere: In the DMG 3.5, under Epic Druid (p. 208), it says: "The Druid may have a maximum number of animal companions equal to twice her druid level, as normal" and in the PHB, it doesn't say anything about the number of companions a Druid can have, and it implies only one through the singular use of the word "companion". How many companions can a Druid have in 3.5??? :confused: :confused: :confused: And is Spell Focus (conjuration) really a prequisite for Augment Summoning? 'Cause that would mean I screwed up with my feat ^.^"... What should I take instead? My character is a gnome with a riding dog companion who shoots fireballs at people through the use of Produce Flame (which was moved to 1st level and had its damage increased, which makes me very happy :angel: ). I was thinking of Mounted Archery or something so he can throw fireballs better while on his doggy, but maybe something else would be better?
Frank5471UK 10-25-03, 05:51 PM	Originally posted by Druid Roxors Considering the druid is probably the best summoner in the game... +2hp/hd +2 Dmg +2 Attack +2 Fort. Its pretty good considering, for example, that the elementals a druid can summon have huge HD. A level 17 Druid with improved initiative gets his turn earlier, he waits till EVERYONE has had his action for the turn and then starts his summoning (1 full round) spell. This to avoid any interruptions this turn. Next turn, with this improved initiative, he reduces his intrruption chances by completing the summoning spell earlier. Now, argument summoning makes the standard Greater Earth Elemental Almost as powerful as the Elder elemental. Considering that sacrificing a level 9 spell will yield 1d4+1 Greater Earth elementals... 2 slams +25 melee (2d10+12) <----- Attack and damage (a little lower than the elder, by two attack points. Higher damage tho, No imp critical) 241 hp <------ More than the elder elemental Same feats, damage reduction, Traits, Etc. So, practically you summon 1d4+1 "Elder Elementals" when you use the feat. Surround the mage this round and he will never see the light again. I have no problem with Augment Summoning. It's a great Feat and a MUST for a Druid. I was asking (in a very ham-fisted way) if Spell Focus (Conjuration) had any other use than being a pre-requisite for Augment Summoning. BTW, I totally dispute your use of Improved Initiative (which is the Feat I was really questioning the need to take). P160 of the PHB states the following about delaying an action :- "When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat" ..... "Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action" Surely initiative result = initiative roll + dex mod + imp. initiative mod (it is defined as such on P136 of the PHB). Therefore, you cannot re-apply the +4 from Improved Initiative AFTER delaying. Therefore, delaying the start of a spell with a casting time of one round does not reduce the chances of interuptions. Everyone else still gets their actions in the next round BEFORE the druid completes his summoning. What do you think ?
Druid Roxors 10-25-03, 06:28 PM	Originally posted by Frank5471UK I have no problem with Augment Summoning. It's a great Feat and a MUST for a Druid. I was asking (in a very ham-fisted way) if Spell Focus (Conjuration) had any other use than being a pre-requisite for Augment Summoning. BTW, I totally dispute your use of Improved Initiative (which is the Feat I was really questioning the need to take). P160 of the PHB states the following about delaying an action :- "When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat" ..... "Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action" Surely initiative result = initiative roll + dex mod + imp. initiative mod (it is defined as such on P136 of the PHB). Therefore, you cannot re-apply the +4 from Improved Initiative AFTER delaying. Therefore, delaying the start of a spell with a casting time of one round does not reduce the chances of interuptions. Everyone else still gets their actions in the next round BEFORE the druid completes his summoning. What do you think ? I think, Several things... 1) Spell focus conjuration is only useful with Fireseeds in holly berry bomb mode. Other than that, it serves as a prerequisite. (useless) 2) Alright, When you delay your action, its concecuences apply only for that round in which you delayed, "combat" seems to be a confusing typo term. There is no consecuence of delaying on your next rounds. If you get (naturally) a initiative result of 5 (OMG) and you start casting your spell, next round you get initiative of 25 and complete your spell. Since you were the last to act, nobody will interrupt (they already took their action) and since you are the first to act next round, the spell takes place at that moment. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell. Delaying initiative is like setting your first initiative result to say.. 2 and then acting next round without delaying. This reduces the chances for interruption inmensely.
Otakkun 10-25-03, 06:42 PM	I have a question about the druid in 3.5... It says that you can pick a wolf as an animal companion... that's great, but what if I want a large wolf? How many levels of penalty should it have? Edo.
Frank5471UK 10-25-03, 06:51 PM	Originally posted by Druid Roxors Delaying initiative is like setting your first initiative result to say.. 2 and then acting next round without delaying. This reduces the chances for interruption inmensely. Interesting. My group has always played it as "rest of combat" = "rest of encounter". This means that if you roll a 20 (say) for initiative and then decide to delay until 2, then in all subsequent rounds you cannot act until initiative slot 2 comes round (and certainly can't return to initiative slot 20). I see no overwhelming reason to try and make you change your mind other than it seems odd to describe a single round as "the rest of combat". Another quote from P160 is " thus fixing your initiative count at that point". Again, it seems an odd interpretation of "fixing" that it applies to a single round only. BTW, I can see why, with your interpretation of the rules, that you think Imp Init is a good feat for a Druid (basically, I think it's not so useful because Druids will be Delaying a lot to wait for their Animal Companion to act - under my interpretation the druid gets stuck on the delayed initiative result and on your interpretation he can return to his "old" result next round). I'm afraid that I can't see my group being up for backing your interpretation. Any other views ? P.S. I'll be a bit quiet for a few days as I am off on hols tomorrow for a few days. I am interested in peoples views though and will check back in on Thu.
Frank5471UK 10-25-03, 06:58 PM	Originally posted by Otakkun It says that you can pick a wolf as an animal companion... that's great, but what if I want a large wolf? How many levels of penalty should it have? As a 1st level druid, you can only pick a vanilla wolf. As the PHB says on P 35, "a 1st level Druid's companion is completely typical for it's kind". This means a medium sized Wolf as described in the Animals section of the MM. At 7th level, you have the option to swap your trusty Wolf companion for a Dire Wolf companion (amongst others), which is indeed large in size. The details of how you calculate this new companions stats is contained in the sidebar on P36 of the PHB. Hope this helps.
Otakkun 10-25-03, 07:23 PM	Oh yeah, the dire pup. I had noticed that one, but I'm thinking of a normal large wolf, with 4 hit dice (as in the wolf hit die progression). Mostly because I'm thinking on a lower level character. Edo.
Druid Roxors 10-25-03, 07:39 PM	Originally posted by Frank5471UK Interesting. My group has always played it as "rest of combat" = "rest of encounter". This means that if you roll a 20 (say) for initiative and then decide to delay until 2, then in all subsequent rounds you cannot act until initiative slot 2 comes round (and certainly can't return to initiative slot 20). I see no overwhelming reason to try and make you change your mind other than it seems odd to describe a single round as "the rest of combat". Another quote from P160 is " thus fixing your initiative count at that point". Again, it seems an odd interpretation of "fixing" that it applies to a single round only. BTW, I can see why, with your interpretation of the rules, that you think Imp Init is a good feat for a Druid (basically, I think it's not so useful because Druids will be Delaying a lot to wait for their Animal Companion to act - under my interpretation the druid gets stuck on the delayed initiative result and on your interpretation he can return to his "old" result next round). I'm afraid that I can't see my group being up for backing your interpretation. Any other views ? P.S. I'll be a bit quiet for a few days as I am off on hols tomorrow for a few days. I am interested in peoples views though and will check back in on Thu. Alright, I believe that "rest of the combat" is a typo made by WOTC. There are many references throughout the text implying that the lower initiative applies only to that round. Allow me to complete the quote you cropped You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.In that round, Acting then, New initiative result for that round. Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don't get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again). If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.Notice "regular Turn". With your interpretation MR Rogue could delay his action when he has a result of 27 on initiative, delay to 26 and he will always act at initiative score 26. I believe that is wrong, horribly. In my opinion, this is how you should delay. You delay on one round, lowering your initiative for that round only. On your next round you roll for initiative normally. Its natural, as if you were clumsy and got an initiative score of 1 and next turn you get a result of 20. A dextrous person with improved initiative should be able to duplicate the result of BAD luck. Which enables the druid to cast summoning spells with a shorter interruption interval.
youspoonybard 10-25-03, 11:21 PM	Sorry DR, but once you delay, you're at that initiative count for the rest of the battle. Having a high init still lets you decide when you go, though. It's always a plus.
Elendur 10-26-03, 01:21 AM	If you play with the optional rule of rolling your initiative every round, then delaying will only work for one round. If you are using the standard method, any change to your initiative lasts the rest of the combat. Honestly the roll every round method doesn't really work correctly in 3rd edition, I think they just left it in for compatibilites sake. I mean does it make any sense that improved initiative would make you cast spells faster?
Frank5471UK 10-26-03, 02:52 AM	Originally posted by Druid Roxors You delay on one round, lowering your initiative for that round only. On your next round you roll for initiative normally. Its natural, as if you were clumsy and got an initiative score of 1 and next turn you get a result of 20. A dextrous person with improved initiative should be able to duplicate the result of BAD luck. Which enables the druid to cast summoning spells with a shorter interruption interval. In regular D&D (3rd Ed), you don't roll for initiative each round. The roll you make on the first round applies to every round of that encounter. YSB is correct that having a high initiative roll is good (because it gives you choices AND stops you being flat-footed earlier). However, I am simply not certain that for my new Druid that this is worth it as I envisage that I am ALWAYS going to be delaying for a slow old Animal companion.
Druid Roxors 10-26-03, 04:32 AM	Originally posted by Frank5471UK In regular D&D (3rd Ed), you don't roll for initiative each round. The roll you make on the first round applies to every round of that encounter. YSB is correct that having a high initiative roll is good (because it gives you choices AND stops you being flat-footed earlier). However, I am simply not certain that for my new Druid that this is worth it as I envisage that I am ALWAYS going to be delaying for a slow old Animal companion. Wooops, Yep, forgive me, On our gaming group we allways use that rule. We think it makes combat more random and unpredictable. You are correct. Now that I see this, there is almost no use for this feat while playing a druid.
kodiesj 10-27-03, 10:06 AM	Just a few things. Improved Initiative isn't a bad feat to take. It allows your druid to hopefully act before others, thus ignoring AoO from close opponents while casting that first spell. I think you should always have your companion delay as opposed to your druid. Spend your first round casting defensive spells particulary either Barkskin or any of the Regenerate Wounds spells. Your companion will recieve the beneifits of this and you still keep your high initiative. For Otakkun, just take the ragular wolf. At third level your animal companion gets +2 HD and your wolf progresses to 4 HD and becomes a large creature gaining all the benefits from that progression.
Elenna 10-27-03, 12:00 PM	Kodiesj, In 3.5 your animal companion doesn't increase in size when its hit dice increase. Instead, you follow the animal companion advancement chart in the PHB in the druid description (don't have the PHB with me now to quote the page#).
kodiesj 10-28-03, 09:13 AM	Correct, you do use the PHB sidebar, but it does not say that your animal comapanion does not increase. It states that "An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice." Although this does not say size in it, one can interpret that the animal progresses in all respects as any other creature that increases it's hit dice. Since the rules are not difinative on this respect, it would be left up to the playing group to decide. Our group has deided that the animal companion, as well as mounts, familiars, and cohorts, will progress as the MM says. It has not unbalanced the game in any way.