Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dave1001 11-11-03, 02:43 PM	Fighting-Monk http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75653.jpg Fighting-monks are priests that belong to an order devoted in large part to the study of fighting styles, especially barehanded martial arts. These monks live and study in monasteries devoted to their orders. Adventures: These monks do not confine their war-training to the monesteries, however. They travel the wide world in order to learn the secrets of life, the world, magic, and the gods. As an order, they sometimes volunteer their services to rulers in times of war, and act as elite forces against enemies of the faith. Most often they can be found as guardians of holy sites, or as protectors of personages important to their deity. Characteristics: The key feature of the monk is their ability to fight unarmed and unarmored. Thanks to their rigorous training, they can strike as hard as if they were armed and strike faster than a warrior with a sword. Fighter-monks do cast a limited range of spells. These spells are those solely given by their deity's domain spells. As proof of their loyalty to their deity their very selves are imbued (from above) with divine energy that allows them to perform amazing feats. Religion: As they are minor clerics focused towards defending their faith, fighting-monks can be found serving vitually any deity. The most common deities for fighter-monks are Heironeous, god of valor, St. Cuthbert, god of retribution, and Hextor, god of tyranny, as the emphasis on law is very appealing to monks. However no deity is limited in having fighting-monks. Races: Humans are the most common of the fighting-monk races. Elves aren't usually one for such strict, regimented lifestyles. Half-elves make good fighting-monks, as the trapping of monastery life doesn't hinder the loner half-elf. For the same reason half-orcs make excellent fighting-monks. Dwarves and gnomes aren't that common as f.ms. Dwarven life is too centered around kin/community, and gnomes don't usually have the patience to devote so much time to an austere lifestyle. Halflings are less common than half-elves, but more common than dwarves. Other Classes: As fighting-monks are a religious order, they get along quite well with clerics and paladins; as long as they have views compatible with their deity. All other classes are regarded neutrally. Game Rule Information Fighting-monks have the following game statistics. Abilities: Wisdom powers the monk's special offensive and defensive capabilities. Dexterity provides the lightly armored monk with a better defense. Strength helps a monk's unarmed combat ability. Alignment: A fighting-monk's training requires strict self-discipline and even stricter deference to their superiors. They can only deviate from their deity's alignment by one step. It must be either on the good/evil or the law/chaos axis. It may not be both. Thus a monk of Heironeous (LG) could be either neutral good or lawful neutral, but not chaotic good Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: The fighting-monk's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Any), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Religion)(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Any), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier You don't see it yet, but yes, fighting-monks cast spells. Albeit on a very limited basis. Level..BAB.....F/R/W....Special 1st....+0........2/0/2....Domain, Unarmed strike 2nd....+1........3/0/3....Flurry of blows 3rd....+2........3/0/3.....----------------- 4th....+3........4/1/4....Unarmed Specialization 5th....+3........4/1/4....----------------- 6th....+4........5/2/5.....Blessed Strike (magic) 7th....+5........5/2/5....---------------- 8th...+6/+1......6/2/6....Unarmed specialization 9th...+6/+1......6/3/6.....-------------- 10th..+7/+2......7/3/7....Mettle 11th..+8/+3......7/3/7....Blessed strike (silver), Greater flurry 12th..+9/+4......8/4/8....Unarmed specialization 13th..+9/+4......8/4/8....---------------- 14th..+10/+5.....9/4/9....Diamond soul 15th..+11/+6/+1..9/5/9....Blessed strike (cold iron) 16th..+12/+7/+2..10/5/10..Unarmed specialization 17th..+12/+7/+2..10/5/10..---------------- 18th..+13/+8/+3..11/6/11..Ethereal fists 19th..+14/+9/+4..11/6/11..Blessed strike (adamantine) 20th..+15/+10/+5.12/6/12..Perfect self, Unarmed Specialization Level..Unarmed Damage..AC Bonus..Fighting Monk Speed 1st......1d6.............+0.........30 ft. 2nd......1d6.............+0.........30 ft. 3rd......1d6.............+0.........30 ft. 4th......1d6.............+0.........30 ft. 5th......1d6.............+1.........30 ft. 6th......1d6.............+1.........40 ft. 7th......1d6.............+1.........40 ft. 8th......1d6.............+1.........40 ft. 9th......1d6.............+1.........40 ft. 10th.....1d6.............+2.........40 ft. 11th.....1d8.............+2.........50 ft. 12th.....1d8.............+2.........50 ft. 13th.....1d8.............+2.........50 ft. 14th.....1d8.............+2.........50 ft. 15th.....1d8.............+3.........50 ft. 16th.....1d8.............+3.........60 ft. 17th.....1d8.............+3.........60 ft. 18th.....1d8.............+3.........60 ft. 19th.....1d8.............+3.........60 ft. 20th.....1d10............+4.........60 ft. Small Monk Damage and Speed Level..Damage..Speed...Level..Damage..Sp eed* 1-3.....1d4.....20 ft..11-12..1d6.....35 ft. 4-5.....1d4.....25 ft..13-15..1d6.....35 ft. 6.......1d4.....25 ft..16-18..1d6.....40 ft. 7-9.....1d4.....30 ft..19.....1d6.....40 ft. 10......1d4.....30 ft..20.....1d8.....40 ft. Spells per Day Fighting-monks cast a limited number of divine spells per day as shown on the table below. They only cast spells from the from the 0-level cleric spell list and the domain to which they have access (one which is part of their deity). To cast a spell, the fighing-monk must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level. The DC for saving throws against these spells is 10 + spell level + the f.m.'s Wis modifier. They gain bonus spells according to high wisdom modifiers just as other casters do. They must pray for spells a certain amount of time each day like clerics do. Level.....0..1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9 1st.......2..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 2nd.......2..1..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 3rd.......3..2..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 4th.......3..2..1..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 5th.......3..3..2..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 6th.......3..3..2..1..-..-..-..-..-..- 7th.......4..3..3..2..-..-..-..-..-..- 8th.......4..3..3..2..1..-..-..-..-..- 9th.......4..4..3..3..2..-..-..-..-..- 10th......4..4..3..3..2..1..-..-..-..- 11th......4..4..4..3..3..2..-..-..-..- 12th......4..4..4..3..3..2..1..-..-..- 13th......5..4..4..4..3..3..2..-..-..- 14th......5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1..-..- 15th......5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..-..- 16th......5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1..- 17th......5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..- 18th......5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1 19th......5..5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2 20th......5..5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2 Class Features Special Abilities: All (Su) abilities are granted directly by the deity. You tick off the deity you lose these abilities until you atone. If you change alignments you potentially lose these abilities (up to deity/DM). Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighting monks are not proficient in any weapon or armor. They are highly developed at dodging blows and develop a 'sixth sense' that lets them avoid even unanticipated attacks. A monk adds their Wisdom bonus (if any) to AC, in addition to his normal Dexterity modifier, and AC improves as they gain levels. Only add the AC bonus from Wisdom and the special modifier if the numbers are positive. Same rules for when this special dodge bonus is in use. A monk loses their AC bonus from wisdom or special class bonus when wearing any armor or wielding a sheild. They also lose the bonus to movement and any (Su) abilties when in any armor. Domain: A fighting-monk has access to one domain in which his patron deity has access. The fighting-monk gains the special ability of that domain and can cast spells from that domain in addition to the 0-level spells available to all clerics. Focusing intently on martial skills has come at a cost of divine magic. Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the fm might make before his next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A fighting-monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. When a fm reaches 11th level, his flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack he gets from flurry of blows, he gets a second extra attack at his full base attack bonus. Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a fighting-monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A fighting-monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a fm may even make unarmed strikes with their hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a fm's striking unarmed. A fm may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all unarmed strikes. Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but they can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on their attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling. A fm’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Unarmed Specialization: the fighting monk gains a +1 to hit and damage rolls. The effects stack. Blessed Strike (Su): At 6th level a fighting-monk's unarmed attacks are empowered with divine energy. The unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Note this doesn't actually increase your chance to hit or increase the amount of damage you do. It merely allows you to bypass damage reduction. Blessed Strike improves as the fighting-monk gains experience, allowing their unarmed strike at 11th level to deal damage against creatures with damage reduction as if it were made with silver. At 15th level they can affect creatures with damage reduction as if made with cold iron, and at 19th level as if made with adamantine. This is a supernatural ability. Mettle (Su): A deity's blessing allows a fighting-monk to shrug off magical effects that would otherwise harm them. If a fighting-monk makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect, they suffer no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude Half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability. Diamond soul (Su): At 13th level, a fm gains spell resistance equal to his current fm level + 10. In order to affect the fm with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the fm’s spell resistance. Ethereal fists (Su): 1/day a fighting-monk can attune himself to the insubstantial, allowing his unarmed attacks to normally affect incorporeal creatures (as if a ghost touch weapon). This ability lasts for 1 round/fighting-monk level. Perfect Self: At 20th level, a fighting-monk becomes a magical creature. Hhe is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the fighting-monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows him to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the fighting-monk can still be brought back from the dead as if he were a member of his previous creature type. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Epic Fighting-Monk Monk AC Unarmored Level Bonus Speed** Special 21st +4 70 ft. (45 ft.) 22st +4 70 ft. (45 ft.) 23rd +4 70 ft. (45 ft.) 24th +4 80 ft. (50 ft.) 25th +5 80 ft. (50 ft.) Bonus feat 26th +5 80 ft. (50 ft.) 27th +5 90 ft. (55 ft.) 28th +5 90 ft. (55 ft.) 29th +5 90 ft. (55 ft.) 30th +6 100 ft. (60 ft.) Bonus feat Hit Die: d8 Skill Points at Each Additional Levek: 4 + Int modifier Armor Class Bonus: The fighting-monk's bonus to Armor Class increases by +1 every five levels after 20th (25th, 30th, and so on). Unarmed Strike: The damage for a fighting-monk's unarmed strike does not increase after 20th level. Fast Movement: The epic fighting-monk's speed when wearing no armor increases by 10 feet every three levels after 20th (23rd, 26th, 29th, etc). The unarmored speed of small and dwarven fighting-monks increases by 5 feet every three levels after 20th. Unarmed Specialization: ? Blessed Strike: The fighting-monk's blessed strike ability does not automatically increase with class level after 19th level. However, the fm can take the epic feat Improved Blessed Strike to increase the effective bypassing qualities of his unarmed strike. Diamond Soul: The epic fighting-monk's spell resistance is equal to his class level +10, as normal. Ethereal Fists: The epic fighting-monk's incorporeal ability continues to increase with class level as normal. Bonus Feats: The epic fighting-monk gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic fighting-monk bonus feats) every five levels after 20th. Epic Fighting-Monk Bonus Feat List: Armor Skin, Balanced Strike*, Blinding Speed, Bonus Domain, Chaotic Strike*, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Improved Blessed Strike*, Improved Spell Resistance, Keen Strike, Lawful Strike*, Legendary Wrestler, Shattering Strike, Vorpal Strike * new feat New Epic Feats Balanced Strike [Epic] Your unarmed strikes are particularly damaging to chaotic and lawful creatures. Prerequisites: Wis 19, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, any of the following neutral alignments (NG, TN, NE). Benefit: Your unarmed strike is treated as a neutral weapon (it deals +1d6 points of damage against creatures of lawful or chaotic alignment). This ability doesn't stack with similar abilities (for instance, if some other effect has granted the neutral ability to your unarmed strike). Chaotic Strike [Epic] Your unarmed strikes are particularly damaging to lawful creatures. Prerequisites: Wis 19, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, any chaotic alignment (CG, CN, CE). Benefit:/[b] Your unarmed strike is treated as a chaotic weapon (it deals +2d6 points of damage against creatures of lawful alignment). This ability doesn't stack with similar abilities (for instance, if some other effect has granted the chaotic ability to your unarmed strike). [b]Improved Blessed Strike [Epic] You can strike opponents with great damage reduction. Prerequisites: Wis 21, Blessed Strike (adamantine). Benefit: Your unarmed strikes are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Lawful Strike [Epic] Your unarmed strikes are particularly damaging to chaotic creatures. Prerequisites: Wis 19, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, any lawful alignment (LG, LN, LE). Benefit: Your unarmed strike is treated as a lawful weapon (it deals +2d6 points of damage against creatures of chaotic alignment). This ability doesn't stack with similar abilities (for instance, if some other effect has granted the lawful ability to your unarmed strike). Replaces the righteous strike epic feat. What's so righteous about law vs. chaos?
Kenkai 11-11-03, 06:17 PM	nifty, what race is the picture?
Dave1001 11-11-03, 06:40 PM	it's a picture from the Draconomononocononomicon. I think it's a human who's in some sort of Dragon-based PrC. I just thought it looked cool and emphasized a bare-handed type of thing.
Asi the red 11-11-03, 11:31 PM	Hey ya'. Check out the Sohei from Oriental Adventures. He seemed kind of similar in purpose. Definitely a cool class. The pic might be a Dragon Disciple, this would account for the coppery skin tone and the scales. You said it was from the Drac...nom...icon... so I don' actually know what's in there, so the Dragon Disciple is really just a guess based on what I know about dragon oriented classes. Asi the Red.
mean_liar 11-12-03, 03:38 AM	This class could kick hell out of a monk. You've stripped the Monk of his lesser special abilities (Dimension Door, Slow Fall) and REF save and in return given him spells (Strength/Luck domain in core, Hero domain with OA access) and Mettle. I personally don't think the tradeoff is equal, but its not overpowering. I suggest drastically reducing the number of spells per day, and consider giving him a custom 4 or 5-level list instead similar to a Paladin or Ranger. Additionally, this class can cast divine spells and therefore can qualify for Contemplative, Divine Disciple, and Sacred Fist, all of which would grant extra domains. Just consider the effect of the extra domains; I couldn't say without playtesting if a Fighting Monk with an extra domain would really be all that unbalancing. In any case you'll have to come up with rules about how a Fighting Monk (which essentially has no 'domain slot' for prepared spells) would deal with the access to the additional Domain's spell list. Could he freely prepare without restriction spells from the additional Domain as if they were ordinary spells, or would they be limited to one per day per spell level as a Domain spell normally is? Your average damage is roughly the same as a Monk's: I would suggest streamlining it by just keeping the Monk's unarmed damage progression. The Unarmed Specialization ability seems extraneous. I like the class concept, but it needs a little work. In my opinion its currently too good.
Dave1001 11-12-03, 07:39 AM	Originally posted by mean_liar This class could kick hell out of a monk. You've stripped the Monk of his lesser special abilities (Dimension Door, Slow Fall) and REF save and in return given him spells (Strength/Luck domain in core, Hero domain with OA access) and Mettle. I personally don't think the tradeoff is equal, but its not overpowering. I suggest drastically reducing the number of spells per day, and consider giving him a custom 4 or 5-level list instead similar to a Paladin or Ranger. Well, let me mention a few things and then see if you still think it's overpowered. He loses evasion, the 2 bonus feats, slow fall, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, diamond body, abundent step, quivering palm, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, and empty body. He also has 1 less good save. In response he gets 5 unarmed specialization feats, mettle, a slightly better equivalent of ki strike, and ethereal fists. As for spellcasting, he advances at the rate of a sorcerer, can cast a total number of spells that is less than a full cleric, and he can only cast domain spells. Thus a 20th level monk is limited to (assuming the Strength domain) all 0-level spells and 1)Endure Elements 2)Bull's Strength 3)Magic Vestment -worthless 4)Spell Immunity 5)Righteous Might 6)Stoneskin 7)Bigby's Grasping Hand 8)Bigby's Clenched Fist 9)Bigby's Crushing Hand In addition to that he does less physical damage than a monk (d10 vs. d20), and has a lesser movement rate (60 ft. vs. 90 ft.) And of course don't forget that all his Su abilities (which means everything but flurry of blows and the bonus feats) are dependent upon the goodwill of a deity. Additionally, this class can cast divine spells and therefore can qualify for Contemplative, Divine Disciple, and Sacred Fist, all of which would grant extra domains. Just consider the effect of the extra domains; I couldn't say without playtesting if a Fighting Monk with an extra domain would really be all that unbalancing. In any case you'll have to come up with rules about how a Fighting Monk (which essentially has no 'domain slot' for prepared spells) would deal with the access to the additional Domain's spell list. Could he freely prepare without restriction spells from the additional Domain as if they were ordinary spells, or would they be limited to one per day per spell level as a Domain spell normally is? Your average damage is roughly the same as a Monk's: I would suggest streamlining it by just keeping the Monk's unarmed damage progression. The Unarmed Specialization ability seems extraneous. I like the class concept, but it needs a little work. In my opinion its currently too good. Well first and foremost this is a class inspired by the fighting-monk kit from 2nd ed Complete Clerics Handbook. And that cleric had reduced magic casting but fought about as well (THAC0 speaking) as a fighter. So that's what I set out to do. I must admit I hadn't tested it in 3.5. But in 3.0 a 1-on-1 fight came down to who won initiative. If the monk won initiative (in a purely physical contest) then he won flat out. If the fighting-monk won in initiative, then he won if he hit every time (as this fighting-monk didn't have the different BAB table that a normal monk does). So I guess the question is: is the casting of 1 domain worth of spells enough of a trade-off for losing the other monk abilities, esp. in 3.5?
Asi the red 11-12-03, 02:20 PM	Hey ya'. Could you clarify for me how Magic Vestment is worthless? Thanks. Asi the Red
Dave1001 11-12-03, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by Asi the red Hey ya'. Could you clarify for me how Magic Vestment is worthless? Thanks. Asi the Red my bad. I only read the quick blurb, and didn't realize clothing counted as armor for purposes of this spell.
Dave1001 11-13-03, 05:27 PM	*cough* :bump: *cough*
Dave1001 12-09-03, 07:30 PM	bumping this for anyone else and to make sure it's not deleted before the contest ends. :bump:
AramTheDM 12-12-03, 10:33 AM	oh...ok. I thought this class ould be like the Martial Artist I've been waiting for. It's not. It is, however, better than both cleric and monk. Not good IMHO. I like the idea, but not the execution. <not meaning to be rude> sorry about that. I do like it...but it's just too much. and classes with spell lists up to 9 shoul not also be better in combat than a cleric. cheerio
Nakou the Saiyan 12-12-03, 11:51 AM	Too much spellcasting for these guys, Bard Spell Progression at maximum or better still Paladin will go a long way in balancing this class. This would only serve as a starting place however, as a primary caster simply cannot have these kind of combat abilities and still be balanced. When I get back from the movies I will give a more indepth analysis. I do like the idea of this class.
Nakou the Saiyan 12-12-03, 02:39 PM	A fighting-monk's training requires strict self-discipline and even stricter deference to their superiors. This flavor text would indicate a Lawful requirement... Unarmed Specialization (General) You are especially skilled at fighting unarmed. Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls while fighting unarmed. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. The effects stack. Each time you take this feat, the prerequisite base attack bonus increases by 1. This feat is totally broken. A character would have to be stupid to not take this feat over Weapon Focus. Not only is the feat better in that it gives a more benefit than Weapon Focus, the fact that it can be taken multiple times really takes it too far. Too much spellcasting for these guys, Bard Spell Progression at maximum or better still Paladin will go a long way in balancing this class. This would only serve as a starting place however, as a primary caster simply cannot have these kind of combat abilities and still be balanced. Im sorry, I was in a hurry and missed the fact they only get spells from the one domain. Still their number of spells per day is making it seem a little too nice. My suggestions for balancing this class would be to remove Unarmed Specialization all together both as a feat and as a class feature. As I mentioned before it is an overpowerful feat. Not only that, but it makes this combatant better at unarmed combat than the core monk. To totally remove it would leave a lot more room open for this classes spellcasting abilities to be balanced. On to that, I suggest giving these guys Bard Spell per day (modified by Wisdom) and keeping it restricted to the single domain. This would make them a median between paladins and clerics which seems like is where they belong. 7th 8th and 9th level spells should be reserved for primary casters, even if it is only a single spell. I would also remove the clases AC bonus and possibly think about giving them limited turning abilities (worse than that of the paladin). This would allow them to take advantage of divine feats. These are just my opinions and please dont take any offence to anything I have said. Ultimately this is your class and your campaign, Im just here to help :)
Dave1001 12-12-03, 05:38 PM	Originally posted by AramTheDM oh...ok. I thought this class ould be like the Martial Artist I've been waiting for. It's not. It is, however, better than both cleric and monk. Not good IMHO. I like the idea, but not the execution. <not meaning to be rude> sorry about that. I do like it...but it's just too much. and classes with spell lists up to 9 shoul not also be better in combat than a cleric. cheerio how is it better than both a cleric and a monk? In what ways? I pure fighting, it's worse than a normal monk. In pure spellcasting it's infinitely worse than a cleric. So what gives?
Dave1001 12-12-03, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by Nakou the Saiyan This flavor text would indicate a Lawful requirement... It's not so much lawfulness as it is obedience. A CE deity expects obedience as much as a LG deity does. That's why it's limited to one step (and only one step) on the alignment axis. This feat is totally broken. A character would have to be stupid to not take this feat over Weapon Focus. Not only is the feat better in that it gives a more benefit than Weapon Focus, the fact that it can be taken multiple times really takes it too far. Actually, it's not really that bad. It can't be taken by a monk at first level. It's not a fighter bonus feat. And the prerequisites increase for each use. I suppose a fm could take this feat at every character level and such, but then they'd lose out on every other feat. Besides, notice that the fm does 1d10 damage at 20th level compared to the monk doing 2d10 unarmed at 20th level. So yes, it is a powerful feat, but it's balanced by less damage for the fm. It's made so that this fm fights approximately as well as a fighter, but with less attacks (and less damage). Im sorry, I was in a hurry and missed the fact they only get spells from the one domain. Still their number of spells per day is making it seem a little too nice. Well, they get sorcerer progression and can only cast 1 spell from each level. So if they have the air domain that's obscuring mist 3 or 4 times a day. Not that bad, really. My suggestions for balancing this class would be to remove Unarmed Specialization all together both as a feat and as a class feature. As I mentioned before it is an overpowerful feat. Not only that, but it makes this combatant better at unarmed combat than the core monk. To totally remove it would leave a lot more room open for this classes spellcasting abilities to be balanced. Again, the fm does less damage from each unarmed strike compared to a monk. 1d10 vs. 2d10. It's a very restrictive feat in that it only affects unarmed strike. That means only a monk-like character would benefit from it. I personally don't think it's overpowered. On to that, I suggest giving these guys Bard Spell per day (modified by Wisdom) and keeping it restricted to the single domain. This would make them a median between paladins and clerics which seems like is where they belong. 7th 8th and 9th level spells should be reserved for primary casters, even if it is only a single spell. I had that, originally but then I realized that if I gave them a set list it would completely ruin the flavor. What good would a death religion want with buffing spells? Or a water fm with flame strike? Nope, the spells are set up so that the strict list is devoted entirely towards the flavor of the deity. And it's extremely limited. So while yes, they can cast 8th and 9th level spells, it's only 1 spell, and they'd be far outclassed by any other primary spellcaster. I would also remove the clases AC bonus and possibly think about giving them limited turning abilities (worse than that of the paladin). This would allow them to take advantage of divine feats. I didn't really see turning as part of a monk's character. And if I removed the AC bonus, that would severely crimp their fighting capability. I mean, they get no armor or weapon proficiency. So they're totally dependent upon Dex and Wis and Str and Con for survival. These are just my opinions and please dont take any offence to anything I have said. Ultimately this is your class and your campaign, Im just here to help :) Thanks for looking it over! I welcome any and all constructive criticism! I just happen to disagree! :D
AramTheDM 12-12-03, 07:19 PM	it's basically the combo of both powers, even though they're both inferior to the base classes they're taken from.(though with the feat, you do come close to the monk and could perhaps surpass him.) The right domain can be found for any character, and some have quite nice lists, especially in the Forgotten Realms where many domain spells are exclusive, powerful spells not available elsewhere. I think it's more powerful because the option to build the über-unarmed strike with your feat, then combo that with good spells from a nice domain, plus ki strike and spell resistance. That's pretty good. Removing the feat would do a lot towards balance IMHO. Also, in the description, perhaps mention for completeness that the follower of Heironeous can also just be LG.
DrakaraGM 12-12-03, 08:15 PM	Dave1001 -- First, as you probably know, I am a fan of monkish characters, so this is intended to be constructive, not disparaging. The BAB increase in the requirement for Unarmed Specialization is practically irrelevant -- your BAB is increasing faster than the ability to gain new feats, so even someone like a wizard, once able to take the feat at all, would be able to take it with every additional character feat he gets. Even counting the automatic gaining of the feat at every fourth level, the fm could take it every 3 levels as well. 5 times at every 4 levels auto, and 6 times at every 3 levels starting at 3rd level, and still never have the BAB requirement be too high. And other characters couldn't come close to violating the requirement. I would say, keep that as a class feature, but not as a feat that anyone can take. That makes it a special feature of the class, while not letting the fm abuse it or allow non-fms to use it. The fm is still going to get his character-level-based bonus feats every 3 levels, and can certainly find plenty of things to do with them, including a variety of O.A.-like martial arts feats that enhance their unarmed combat capabilities, and they will take such feats if they are truly into their martial arts. The Unarmed Specialization of +5 to both hit and damage by 20th level gives them the fighter's effective BAB -- with that and their Greater Flurry, they will only have a +15 BAB for the purpose of trading in Power Attack or whatever, BUT their effective unarmed attacks will be +20/+20/+20/+15/+10, doing d10+5, which is just fine, they do only a hair less damage than the monk's 2d10 but they are +5 better to hit with all five attacks, which should do them just fine... Speaking of Flurry -- to be consistent, at 11th level, since you ARE giving it to them, the class features really should list Greater Flurry -- as it does on the Monk class features table -- since that IS a separate ability, just like Improved Evasion is a separate ability from Evasion. :) And lets just look at the somewhat boring -- but effectively humongously resilient -- Healing Domain fm. After all, spontaneous cures is what many clerics are roped into -- er, relied upon for -- so practically the most boring domain you could take would be the one domain that essentially duplicates that cleric ability. In effect, all of the fm's 1st level spells and up would be healing spells, as though he were a cleric spontaneously casting them as cures etc. Sure, with luck there will be spells you don't actually need, but hey, might as well prepare Regeneration in your 7th level spell slot anyways... This gives the Healing fm TWO significant advantages. First, the party is gonna LOVE having him around as a primary fight combined with being a healing battery. And second -- those healing spells can be used to wreak some serious havoc on Undead, seeing as how cure spells do damage to undead... Yeah, may not waste an action to touch an undead for a CLW for d8+5 (+1 caster level doesn;t help you exceed the max) -- but before opening the crypt as a high level fm, nothing like prepping a Heal spell and then on the next round delivering that in combo with a n unarmed attack... That mummy is NOT gonna be happy...not at all... :D No, I think making the unarmed specialization a feat is going a bit too far -- the class is just fine getting it 'only' at every four levels, and not letting other characters get it at all is not a problem. This IS after all the primary focus of the class. Being 'forced' to use regular character feats on things like Power Attack, Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Stunning Fist, Fists of Iron, and so on is not a drawback but actually a way for each fm to develop his own individual fighting style, within the framework of the basic intense unarmed combat training he receives normally. And the Domain spells, although limiting, are nonetheless quite powerful in their place, and make the different fms more unique. That feature I do like very much -- and remember, if there is a spell at 2nd level or higher that the fm just doesn't want to prepare, he can always prepare a lower level spell instead. If he really wants to, for some reason, he could even learn metamagic for that very purpose. Yep, the class is awesome. Whether it is more or less powerful than a straight cleric or a straight monk, I cannot say. Getting rid of that feat but keeping the 5 gains of unarmed specialization along the way would not deter ME in the least from playing such a character -- indeed, I am sorely tempted to introduce such a character as an NPC in my O.A. world... :)
Nakou the Saiyan 12-13-03, 04:12 AM	When I said give him Bard progression, I meant only in terms of spells per day. I really LIKE how this buy knows only 1 domain, but feel he shouldnt have access to any higher level spells. Again, just my input. This post was simply meant as a clarification of what I said previously. I am NOT trying to push you in any way.
Dave1001 12-13-03, 01:17 PM	Originally posted by DrakaraGM Dave1001 -- First, as you probably know, I am a fan of monkish characters, so this is intended to be constructive, not disparaging. The BAB increase in the requirement for Unarmed Specialization is practically irrelevant -- your BAB is increasing faster than the ability to gain new feats, so even someone like a wizard, once able to take the feat at all, would be able to take it with every additional character feat he gets. Even counting the automatic gaining of the feat at every fourth level, the fm could take it every 3 levels as well. 5 times at every 4 levels auto, and 6 times at every 3 levels starting at 3rd level, and still never have the BAB requirement be too high. And other characters couldn't come close to violating the requirement. I would say, keep that as a class feature, but not as a feat that anyone can take. That makes it a special feature of the class, while not letting the fm abuse it or allow non-fms to use it. The fm is still going to get his character-level-based bonus feats every 3 levels, and can certainly find plenty of things to do with them, including a variety of O.A.-like martial arts feats that enhance their unarmed combat capabilities, and they will take such feats if they are truly into their martial arts. The Unarmed Specialization of +5 to both hit and damage by 20th level gives them the fighter's effective BAB -- with that and their Greater Flurry, they will only have a +15 BAB for the purpose of trading in Power Attack or whatever, BUT their effective unarmed attacks will be +20/+20/+20/+15/+10, doing d10+5, which is just fine, they do only a hair less damage than the monk's 2d10 but they are +5 better to hit with all five attacks, which should do them just fine... Speaking of Flurry -- to be consistent, at 11th level, since you ARE giving it to them, the class features really should list Greater Flurry -- as it does on the Monk class features table -- since that IS a separate ability, just like Improved Evasion is a separate ability from Evasion. :) And lets just look at the somewhat boring -- but effectively humongously resilient -- Healing Domain fm. After all, spontaneous cures is what many clerics are roped into -- er, relied upon for -- so practically the most boring domain you could take would be the one domain that essentially duplicates that cleric ability. In effect, all of the fm's 1st level spells and up would be healing spells, as though he were a cleric spontaneously casting them as cures etc. Sure, with luck there will be spells you don't actually need, but hey, might as well prepare Regeneration in your 7th level spell slot anyways... This gives the Healing fm TWO significant advantages. First, the party is gonna LOVE having him around as a primary fight combined with being a healing battery. And second -- those healing spells can be used to wreak some serious havoc on Undead, seeing as how cure spells do damage to undead... Yeah, may not waste an action to touch an undead for a CLW for d8+5 (+1 caster level doesn;t help you exceed the max) -- but before opening the crypt as a high level fm, nothing like prepping a Heal spell and then on the next round delivering that in combo with a n unarmed attack... That mummy is NOT gonna be happy...not at all... :D No, I think making the unarmed specialization a feat is going a bit too far -- the class is just fine getting it 'only' at every four levels, and not letting other characters get it at all is not a problem. This IS after all the primary focus of the class. Being 'forced' to use regular character feats on things like Power Attack, Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Stunning Fist, Fists of Iron, and so on is not a drawback but actually a way for each fm to develop his own individual fighting style, within the framework of the basic intense unarmed combat training he receives normally. And the Domain spells, although limiting, are nonetheless quite powerful in their place, and make the different fms more unique. That feature I do like very much -- and remember, if there is a spell at 2nd level or higher that the fm just doesn't want to prepare, he can always prepare a lower level spell instead. If he really wants to, for some reason, he could even learn metamagic for that very purpose. Yep, the class is awesome. Whether it is more or less powerful than a straight cleric or a straight monk, I cannot say. Getting rid of that feat but keeping the 5 gains of unarmed specialization along the way would not deter ME in the least from playing such a character -- indeed, I am sorely tempted to introduce such a character as an NPC in my O.A. world... :) yeah, you're probably right. I've gone ahead and changed it, and added greater flurry to the table. Thanks for convincing me!
Dave1001 12-13-03, 01:20 PM	Originally posted by Nakou the Saiyan When I said give him Bard progression, I meant only in terms of spells per day. I really LIKE how this buy knows only 1 domain, but feel he shouldnt have access to any higher level spells. Again, just my input. This post was simply meant as a clarification of what I said previously. I am NOT trying to push you in any way. are you saying spell levels? because # of spells per day is essentially the same as a bard. Personally speaking I like having them be able to cast high-level spells, if only 1 spell at each level. I think the access to high level spells is balanced by the severe restrictions on spells known (namely, 1).
Asi the red 12-15-03, 12:24 AM	Hey ya'. OK, took a look around and noticed a few things. One: For the life of me I can't find where Nakou the Saiyan quoted the Unarmed Spec. feat from. Maybe I'm just blind but I can't find it. I'm not sure that it would be a problem as a feat, even though if you took it at every opportunity you'd have +10 attack and +10 damage at 20th, because then you'd do nothing else with your feats. It also adds some power to the monk as they meet the requirements at every level after 2nd. It is definitely more powerful than Focus (unarmed strike) though. Two: You've added Greater Flurry to the table but no information on what it does in the class abilities. It's probably a 3.5 monk ability right? That would expain why I don't have any info on it. Three: You appear to have converted the table to 3.5 but have left the ability description as 3.0. In specific, Blessed Strike. Four: I read through their Characteristics and noticed that the last sentence alludes to a Stunning Fist like ability. Where is it or was it originally included and later cut? Five: I took a quick look through the PHB spell lists and didn't see very many spells that Mettle would qualify for. Could you list a few because right now I don't see the real bonus of Mettle over Evasion. OK, they cast spells out of one of their deity's domains. Do they get the Domain's Granted Power as well? They cast spells. Can they use scrolls? I think that I have to side with the guys that recommend that they don't get access to the highest (7/8/9) level spells of their chosen domain. You make a good arguement for keeping them(that they only know one spell) but say they've got the war domain. That's 3 Power Word, Kills. The cleric wouldn't memorize 3 of those, he's got the whole party to take care of. But you've got no reason/choice not to. With three Power Word, Kills you can kill three mages or clerics of any level. No save, just "Die" if you've got less than 100 HP. No 20th level mage will have 100 HP. Any of the elemental domains give them access to three Elemental Swarms each day. That's enough to kill ARMIES with! Or, any of the alignment domains with Summon Monster IX. That's a freekin' Elder Elemental or 1d3 Greater Elementals. Also enough to kill armies with. Let me make one last point on the 9th level domain spells. The Luck domain. Miracle, "Duplicate any other spell of up to 7th level." No XP loss Who cares if you only know Miracle, it gives you every 7th level and below spell. I think that eliminating the 7th 8th and 9th level spells would be a large enough cut to let them keep the rest of the spell list the way that it is (not lowering # of spells per day). Heck, maybe even just eliminate their access to 9th level spells, all the 7th and 8th level domains don't seem nearly as overpowerful as the 9th level domains. At present I agree with Dave_1001 on the subject of the turning attempts. It's an unneeded extra power. Asi the Red.
Dave1001 12-15-03, 07:18 AM	Originally posted by Asi the red Hey ya'. OK, took a look around and noticed a few things. One: For the life of me I can't find where Nakou the Saiyan quoted the Unarmed Spec. feat from. Maybe I'm just blind but I can't find it. I'm not sure that it would be a problem as a feat, even though if you took it at every opportunity you'd have +10 attack and +10 damage at 20th, because then you'd do nothing else with your feats. It also adds some power to the monk as they meet the requirements at every level after 2nd. It is definitely more powerful than Focus (unarmed strike) though. Yeah, I was convinced to get rid of it as a feat and just keep it as a special ability. Two: You've added Greater Flurry to the table but no information on what it does in the class abilities. It's probably a 3.5 monk ability right? That would expain why I don't have any info on it. Greater flurry is described at the end of the flurry of blows description. It's how they did it for the 3.5 monk. Three: You appear to have converted the table to 3.5 but have left the ability description as 3.0. In specific, Blessed Strike. :embarrass Four: I read through their Characteristics and noticed that the last sentence alludes to a Stunning Fist like ability. Where is it or was it originally included and later cut? :embarrass it was later cut. Five: I took a quick look through the PHB spell lists and didn't see very many spells that Mettle would qualify for. Could you list a few because right now I don't see the real bonus of Mettle over Evasion. It's supposed to be a replacement, not necessarily an improvement. But a few examples might be Antipathy, Chaos Hammer, Chill Touch, Circle of Doom, Cloudkill, Destruction, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Healing Circle, Horrid Wilting, all of the Inflict Wounds spells, Phantasmal Killer, the green ability of Prismatic Sphere, Spray, and Wall, theoretically Shatter, Shout, Slay Living, Sound Burst, Unholy Blight, and Weird. I'm sure there's more spells in the various supplements and releases. And of course the ability works against spell-like or supernatural abilities that also allow for Fort partial/Will partial type stuff. OK, they cast spells out of one of their deity's domains. Do they get the Domain's Granted Power as well? They cast spells. Can they use scrolls? Yes they get the domain ability (after all, they only get one domain and it has to be of the deity). And I would guess that they can use divine scrolls. However they would only be able to scribe spells from their domain. I think that I have to side with the guys that recommend that they don't get access to the highest (7/8/9) level spells of their chosen domain. You make a good arguement for keeping them(that they only know one spell) but say they've got the war domain. That's 3 Power Word, Kills. The cleric wouldn't memorize 3 of those, he's got the whole party to take care of. But you've got no reason/choice not to. With three Power Word, Kills you can kill three mages or clerics of any level. No save, just "Die" if you've got less than 100 HP. No 20th level mage will have 100 HP. Yeah, but a 20th level cleric could cast it 5 times. And besides, the fm always gets his new spell level one behind the cleric (much like the sorcerer gets his spells one level behind the wizard). I could consider dropping the number of spells per day, but I like having access to higher level spells (even if only 1). Any of the elemental domains give them access to three Elemental Swarms each day. That's enough to kill ARMIES with! Or, any of the alignment domains with Summon Monster IX. That's a freekin' Elder Elemental or 1d3 Greater Elementals. Also enough to kill armies with. Yes, but how would this fm compare to a full caster? they'd get their behinds handed to them in spells. And what you describe is nothing that a normal cleric or druid couldn't do, only they'd do it more often. Let me make one last point on the 9th level domain spells. The Luck domain. Miracle, "Duplicate any other spell of up to 7th level." No XP loss Who cares if you only know Miracle, it gives you every 7th level and below spell. I think that eliminating the 7th 8th and 9th level spells would be a large enough cut to let them keep the rest of the spell list the way that it is (not lowering # of spells per day). Heck, maybe even just eliminate their access to 9th level spells, all the 7th and 8th level domains don't seem nearly as overpowerful as the 9th level domains. Well, keeping in mind that there are limiting factors on the spell (it must be a request that is in keeping with the deity's nature or else it won't work), I don't think it's all that powerful. But you yourself said that the 7th and 8th level abilities don't seem nearly as powerful. And miracle allows up to 7th level of whatever spell. And again, it's nothing a cleric with the luck domain couldn't cast 5 times at 20th level. I'm sorry but I really just don't see it as overpowering. At present I agree with Dave_1001 on the subject of the turning attempts. It's an unneeded extra power. Asi the Red. Yeah, I didn't see it fitting the flavor. Thanks for everything. I should hire you as my editor!
DrakaraGM 12-15-03, 05:44 PM	Dave1001 -- In response to the idea of fewer spells per day, I can kinda see some folks points -- the idea that the fm's melee abilities are supposed to be significantly superior to a cleric's or druid's means that even with their limited number of spell choices, maybe they should also get a few fewer spells per day at least. (Whether their melee abilities ARE actually superior to a cleric's or druid's is not the point -- the fm is supposed to be having a blast beating stuff up with fists alone, whilke the cleric and druid are supposed to be better divine spellcasters in various ways... I do support you in letting them stay with up through 9th level spells, but I would suggest that they get to the 3 and 4 numbers of spells per day for the higher level spells a little slower, yet end up with a few more lower level spells in the process. Here is a suggested spells per day table that is just slightly toned down, that you might consider. (Sorry that I didn't format it special...) Level.....0..1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9 1st.......2..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 2nd......2..1..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 3rd.......3..2..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 4th.......3..2..1..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 5th.......3..3..2..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 6th.......3..3..2..1..-..-..-..-..-..- 7th.......4..3..3..2..-..-..-..-..-..- 8th.......4..3..3..2..1..-..-..-..-..- 9th.......4..4..3..3..2..-..-..-..-..- 10th......4..4..3..3..2..1..-..-..-..- 11th......4..4..4..3..3..2..-..-..-..- 12th......4..4..4..3..3..2..1..-..-..- 13th......5..4..4..4..3..3..2..-..-..- 14th......5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1..-..- 15th......5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..-..- 16th......5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1..- 17th......5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..- 18th......5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1 19th......5..5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2 20th......5..5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2 Now, admittedly, there is one level where the fm's spells per day do not increase -- 20th level, because you don't get any 10th level spells. But then, 20th level is still worth taking...what with the BAB increase, two good saves increasing, damage die size increasing, Perfect Self and the 5th Unarmed Specialization being gained, and so on...so not getting any new spells per day is probably not an issue... Hee is the pattern I used, which IS a pattern -- I noted some inconsistencies in your table and sort of smoothed them out in the process. Basically, looking down the column for a given level of spells, the sequence goes thus -- one entry of 1, 2 entries of 2, 4 entries of 3, 6 entries of 4, 8 entries of 5, and if the table continued, there would have been 10 entries of 6... At each level where a new level of spells is gained, that is the ONLY new spell gained -- and since you don't allow them to get bonus spells for high WIS that is an even further drawback... Personally, I WOULD allow them to get bonus spells for high WIS. That is just gonna mean more low and medium level spells for the most part -- and by trimming the higher level spells per day slightly, allowing WIS bonus (after all, even paladins and rangers get WIS bonus spells on their extremely limited spells per day table) would not terribly increase the number of high level spells per day they would get. And that would keep their spellcasting within the general rules of the system -- i.e. all spellcasters get bonus spells per day based on their primary spellcasting ability score. They are still limited to an extremely small spell list -- they may have a few powerful high level tricks in that one domain, BUT that is their only major type of spellcasting, and that is severely limiting when considered over the entire course of their career... In most campaigns, allowing bonus spells would just mean a few more low and medium level spells per day, which is not unbalancing especially when the selection is so extremely limited. Anyways, this doesn't get rid of the "ohmigod, a decent fighting character with access to 9th level spells" objection some folks raise -- but then, clerics and druids ARE fairly competent in melee AND have the ability to wear armor and use shield and cast a VARIETY of 9th level spells at such levels, so personally, I don't have a problem with the ability of them to cast a very few specific spells of such power. After all, every domain has SOME powerful spells along the way, but also has spells that the character might not use that much -- or else may have a domain power that is pretty useless. So this is just a minor modification of the spell table combined with getting bonus spells to bring the class in line with the standard rules, without really gaining any significant power -- add a little at the lower levels, take away a little at the higher levels unless the character has tons of WIS. (And even if he does, still much more restricted than clerics.) In fact, deity and Domain selection is an awesomely important part of character generation for this type of character -- it is a choice you have to make at 1st level, and live with for the rest of the character's career -- whereas a cleric or druid can prepare entirely different types of spells depending on circumstances, and even for a cleric's domain spells, he has his choice of two (or with some prestige classes, more) different domains to choose from. For example my 3.0 cleric/monk of St. Cuthbert never takes Inflict Wounds from Destruction domain, instead preparing Endure Elements from Strength domain, but she much prefers the Smite granted power from the former compared to the feat of Strength granted power from the latter, considering she only has one level of cleric. If she was instead taking fighting monk class, she would have to think long and hard over which of those two domains she would prefer -- she would still prefer the Smite power at low levels, but that just gets +1 to damage on the one attack for each level above 1st -- whereas the feat of STR starts out weaker, adding +1 to STR per cleric level meaning only +1 to hit and damage for every TWO levels, but lasting for the entire round. At 20th level, +4 to hit and +20 to damage on a single attack is nowhere near as cool as +10 to hit and damage both on all attacks for an entire round! And that is without even considering the spells in each domain list -- Destruction has some mediocre spells that I normally wouldn't prepare as a cleric, but it also has some awesome ones like Disintegrate and Implosion -- while Strength has some awesome lower level spells (Endure Elements is a lot better in 3.0 than in 3.5, and then there is Bull's Strength, Magic Vestments and Righteous Might and Stoneskin, fine spells for someone who likes to go toe-to-toe with his bare hands in a bathrobe vs the toughest of foes... And of course compared with a Cleric of St. Cuthbert of the same level, with the same two domains as I took, the cleric will prepare the domain spell he likes better at each level, along with a variety of other spells, and be able to melee quite effecively himself, and have access to both a Smite and a feat of Strength... Yeah, keep the 9th level spells. I think the current Question -- normally an fm is not proficient with any armor OR weapons, and obviously is intended (and probably will) primarily use his unarmed strikes. However, is an fm actually prohibeted from using weapons? I can easily see an fm with a level in some fighting class who is thus proficient with all simple and martial weapons, say, and who carries a bow or crossbow or whatever, as long as the deity is not one who actively objects to such a weapon... Similarly, assuming an fm did take War domain, the fm would be proficient in, and get Weapon Focus with, one specific weapon, whether it is martial or simple -- the favored weapon of the deity. I don't see that as a problem either -- the granted power for a fighting monk of a War deity who chooses to take the War domain would be able to use that one weapon pretty effectively. Obviously, the best choice of deity for such an fm would be one whose favored weapon is a bow, or at least some weapon which can be thrown. Or, potentially, a deity whose favored weapon is Unarmed Strike, for the Weapon Focus in the fm's primary attack form. All of that stuff is IMO allowable variance based on the deity worshipped and what that deity expects of his servants. Anyways, like the changes so far, stick to your guns wrt being able to use the high level spells, maybe change the spells per day and WIS bonus spells as I suggest, and that sounds just about right to me! The Mettle ability is definitely more appropriate than Evasion, there may be fewer spells of each type compaered to Reflex save spells, but between Fortitude and Will save spells with partial effects, there are enough to make the ability useful, and the character is definitely more the 'endure the pain and shrug it off' type rather than the duck and cover type.
DrakaraGM 12-15-03, 06:03 PM	P.S. -- Although Dwarven fighter-monks might be very rare, I could see myself playing one pretty easily! The stereotypical 'orphan taken up by the monastery/temple/etc. and raised in its traditions' would work -- indeed, a dwarf whose kin were wiped out could come to consider the priests of his deity as his effective kin, and devote his life to the service of the deity and the protection of the deity's priests. And dwarves are very orderly sorts, so to that extent the regimented lifestyle of a religious sort would be one that the dwarf would find comfortable. He has just replaced his blood kin and normal community with the community of the temple heirarchy. As a medium creature with stability, dwarves make excellent users of the Trip action. The normal monk can get it pretty easily, the fighter monk might have to work at it to enable that combat style, but could eventually be pretty effective using Improved Trip as a mechanism to bring low his opponents... That would probably be the combat path I would take -- perhaps getting (if available) the O.A. Great Throw feat, leveraging foes into teh air and then slamming them down on the ground, then stomping their faces into the stone... :) I can see it now -- first they laugh at the 'foolish dwarf who doesn't even wear armor or carry a weapon.' Then that 'foolish dwarf' calmly, even slightly sadly, educates them as to the error of their assumptions... Hmm, what domains does Moradin offer? Or perhaps he'd simply go the St. Cuthbert route. Cut off from his home halls and kin, seeking justice and vengeance for the loss of his kin, he is taken in by the priests of retribution. Seeking the simple Strength (domain choice) to prevail in his new life, he eagerly absorbs the strange fighting style that the humans seem to have developed using only their hands, feet and other body parts as weapons...
BrianMc223 12-15-03, 06:09 PM	A primary fighter haveing access to even ONE spell of ninth level is overpowered and unbalanceing, especially if it can duplicate any spell of 7th or lower level. None of your arguments to how he isn;t overpowered hold water because your comparing it to a high level cleric, you would have to totally revamp this class to have a CHANCE of getting it approved in one of my games. (And I allow half-dragon minotaurs!)
Dave1001 12-15-03, 10:35 PM	I'll respond tomorrow. Just real quick I thought I'd let everyone know that I crunched the numbers and as is the fm came up exactly average at 250 pts. http://www.community3e.com/dn/class/class_d20cce.pdf
AramTheDM 12-16-03, 01:43 AM	That pdf basically says you need to keep your class at or under 240. Meaning you're 10 pts off, if I'm not mistaken. Also, did you count the Unarmed Specialization as a (one) feat? Because (see weapon focus for comparison) it's stronger than one feat.
Asi the red 12-16-03, 03:10 AM	Hey ya'. No I will not be your editor. But I will continue to give you my opinion, which is free and not subject to being altered with an excessive salary. OK, I undersatand about points 1-5 and the domain spells question, thanks for clearing them up. I'm also starting to come around to the keep the high level spells side of the discusion. In fact if DrakaraGM's spells per day table was used you'd have me convinced. It's just that at present getting the same level of spells only one level behind like the sorc. compared to the wiz. doesn't work for me. The two of them are spellcasting equals and the sorc gets the one level delay to balance his spontaneous casting. The FM and the cleric aren't supposed to be spellcasting equals and just limiting the spells known list (even to just one spell per level) leaves them too close in my mind. Oh yeah, I also ran the #'s through and it came out at 225 for me. This was my breakdown: total from top: 105 1st--5 (feat) 2nd-10 (enhanced one time) 4th--5 (feat) 6th--20 (moderate ability and fast movement) 8th--5 (feat) 10th-5 (one time ability) 12th-5 (feat) 14th-10 (enhanced one time) 16th-5 (feat) 18th-5 (one time ability) 20th-15 (enhanced one time and a feat) total: 90 Spell Capability- 10 Divine Spells- 48 Limited Spell List- -10 Wearing Armor affects all Abilities- -20 This comes out to 223 points (we'll call it 225), which is in fact, 15 points under the recommended 240. Unless you guys had Unarmed Specialization in as equivalent to Weapon Specialization instead of just as a regular feat. In which case add 25 to my total and it is 250. With DrakaraGM's spell per day chart the FM would be at 240, the recommended number of points. The FM may just be ready to go right where it is though. BrianMc223: I don't think that the FM is supposed to be a primary fighter. I always got the impression that he's supposed to be a secondary fighter like the Monk. I don't know if that's true or not though. Alright, that's all. Asi the Red
Dave1001 12-16-03, 07:12 AM	Originally posted by AramTheDM That pdf basically says you need to keep your class at or under 240. Meaning you're 10 pts off, if I'm not mistaken. Also, did you count the Unarmed Specialization as a (one) feat? Because (see weapon focus for comparison) it's stronger than one feat. well yes they recommend 240, but if you compare it to the other core classes, you see it exactly in the middle. And I counted Unarmed Specialization as a feat X5 (for the 5 times you get it).
AramTheDM 12-16-03, 08:49 AM	I know that's the average for a core class, but this is a variant, which should perhaps be a little less good. also, I tried that rating system and came up with this: BAB clr, saves clr, skills 16 & skill pts 4 (30+25+20+30)= 105 unarmed strike 10, mettle 10, fast move 10, ac increase 10= 40 domain 9, total spells at lvl 20 39, diamond soul 10= 58 blessed strike 10, ethereal fists 5, perfect self 10= 25 unarmed specialization x5 (about as good as WS, and a non-Ftr shouldn't have that either) = 40 then +/- 10 for spellcasting/limited list armor does not affect spells, so a modest -10 for that alignment prohibited -5 punching that in the calculator, 253 rolls out. barring Bard, Monk, Paladin and Rogue (and now also Ranger, I guess) it's at the top. That can't be good for a variant class. As that little file says, it should not outshine normal classes. This one does, IMHO.
Dave1001 12-16-03, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by DrakaraGM Dave1001 -- In response to the idea of fewer spells per day, I can kinda see some folks points -- the idea that the fm's melee abilities are supposed to be significantly superior to a cleric's or druid's means that even with their limited number of spell choices, maybe they should also get a few fewer spells per day at least. (Whether their melee abilities ARE actually superior to a cleric's or druid's is not the point -- the fm is supposed to be having a blast beating stuff up with fists alone, whilke the cleric and druid are supposed to be better divine spellcasters in various ways... I do support you in letting them stay with up through 9th level spells, but I would suggest that they get to the 3 and 4 numbers of spells per day for the higher level spells a little slower, yet end up with a few more lower level spells in the process. Here is a suggested spells per day table that is just slightly toned down, that you might consider. (Sorry that I didn't format it special...) Level.....0..1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9 1st.......2..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 2nd......2..1..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 3rd.......3..2..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 4th.......3..2..1..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 5th.......3..3..2..-..-..-..-..-..-..- 6th.......3..3..2..1..-..-..-..-..-..- 7th.......4..3..3..2..-..-..-..-..-..- 8th.......4..3..3..2..1..-..-..-..-..- 9th.......4..4..3..3..2..-..-..-..-..- 10th......4..4..3..3..2..1..-..-..-..- 11th......4..4..4..3..3..2..-..-..-..- 12th......4..4..4..3..3..2..1..-..-..- 13th......5..4..4..4..3..3..2..-..-..- 14th......5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1..-..- 15th......5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..-..- 16th......5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1..- 17th......5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..- 18th......5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2..1 19th......5..5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2 20th......5..5..5..5..4..4..4..3..3..2 Now, admittedly, there is one level where the fm's spells per day do not increase -- 20th level, because you don't get any 10th level spells. But then, 20th level is still worth taking...what with the BAB increase, two good saves increasing, damage die size increasing, Perfect Self and the 5th Unarmed Specialization being gained, and so on...so not getting any new spells per day is probably not an issue... Hee is the pattern I used, which IS a pattern -- I noted some inconsistencies in your table and sort of smoothed them out in the process. Basically, looking down the column for a given level of spells, the sequence goes thus -- one entry of 1, 2 entries of 2, 4 entries of 3, 6 entries of 4, 8 entries of 5, and if the table continued, there would have been 10 entries of 6... At each level where a new level of spells is gained, that is the ONLY new spell gained -- and since you don't allow them to get bonus spells for high WIS that is an even further drawback... Personally, I WOULD allow them to get bonus spells for high WIS. That is just gonna mean more low and medium level spells for the most part -- and by trimming the higher level spells per day slightly, allowing WIS bonus (after all, even paladins and rangers get WIS bonus spells on their extremely limited spells per day table) would not terribly increase the number of high level spells per day they would get. And that would keep their spellcasting within the general rules of the system -- i.e. all spellcasters get bonus spells per day based on their primary spellcasting ability score. They are still limited to an extremely small spell list -- they may have a few powerful high level tricks in that one domain, BUT that is their only major type of spellcasting, and that is severely limiting when considered over the entire course of their career... In most campaigns, allowing bonus spells would just mean a few more low and medium level spells per day, which is not unbalancing especially when the selection is so extremely limited. Anyways, this doesn't get rid of the "ohmigod, a decent fighting character with access to 9th level spells" objection some folks raise -- but then, clerics and druids ARE fairly competent in melee AND have the ability to wear armor and use shield and cast a VARIETY of 9th level spells at such levels, so personally, I don't have a problem with the ability of them to cast a very few specific spells of such power. After all, every domain has SOME powerful spells along the way, but also has spells that the character might not use that much -- or else may have a domain power that is pretty useless. So this is just a minor modification of the spell table combined with getting bonus spells to bring the class in line with the standard rules, without really gaining any significant power -- add a little at the lower levels, take away a little at the higher levels unless the character has tons of WIS. (And even if he does, still much more restricted than clerics.) In fact, deity and Domain selection is an awesomely important part of character generation for this type of character -- it is a choice you have to make at 1st level, and live with for the rest of the character's career -- whereas a cleric or druid can prepare entirely different types of spells depending on circumstances, and even for a cleric's domain spells, he has his choice of two (or with some prestige classes, more) different domains to choose from. For example my 3.0 cleric/monk of St. Cuthbert never takes Inflict Wounds from Destruction domain, instead preparing Endure Elements from Strength domain, but she much prefers the Smite granted power from the former compared to the feat of Strength granted power from the latter, considering she only has one level of cleric. If she was instead taking fighting monk class, she would have to think long and hard over which of those two domains she would prefer -- she would still prefer the Smite power at low levels, but that just gets +1 to damage on the one attack for each level above 1st -- whereas the feat of STR starts out weaker, adding +1 to STR per cleric level meaning only +1 to hit and damage for every TWO levels, but lasting for the entire round. At 20th level, +4 to hit and +20 to damage on a single attack is nowhere near as cool as +10 to hit and damage both on all attacks for an entire round! And that is without even considering the spells in each domain list -- Destruction has some mediocre spells that I normally wouldn't prepare as a cleric, but it also has some awesome ones like Disintegrate and Implosion -- while Strength has some awesome lower level spells (Endure Elements is a lot better in 3.0 than in 3.5, and then there is Bull's Strength, Magic Vestments and Righteous Might and Stoneskin, fine spells for someone who likes to go toe-to-toe with his bare hands in a bathrobe vs the toughest of foes... And of course compared with a Cleric of St. Cuthbert of the same level, with the same two domains as I took, the cleric will prepare the domain spell he likes better at each level, along with a variety of other spells, and be able to melee quite effecively himself, and have access to both a Smite and a feat of Strength... Yeah, keep the 9th level spells. I think the current Question -- normally an fm is not proficient with any armor OR weapons, and obviously is intended (and probably will) primarily use his unarmed strikes. However, is an fm actually prohibeted from using weapons? I can easily see an fm with a level in some fighting class who is thus proficient with all simple and martial weapons, say, and who carries a bow or crossbow or whatever, as long as the deity is not one who actively objects to such a weapon... Similarly, assuming an fm did take War domain, the fm would be proficient in, and get Weapon Focus with, one specific weapon, whether it is martial or simple -- the favored weapon of the deity. I don't see that as a problem either -- the granted power for a fighting monk of a War deity who chooses to take the War domain would be able to use that one weapon pretty effectively. Obviously, the best choice of deity for such an fm would be one whose favored weapon is a bow, or at least some weapon which can be thrown. Or, potentially, a deity whose favored weapon is Unarmed Strike, for the Weapon Focus in the fm's primary attack form. All of that stuff is IMO allowable variance based on the deity worshipped and what that deity expects of his servants. Anyways, like the changes so far, stick to your guns wrt being able to use the high level spells, maybe change the spells per day and WIS bonus spells as I suggest, and that sounds just about right to me! The Mettle ability is definitely more appropriate than Evasion, there may be fewer spells of each type compaered to Reflex save spells, but between Fortitude and Will save spells with partial effects, there are enough to make the ability useful, and the character is definitely more the 'endure the pain and shrug it off' type rather than the duck and cover type. phew, that's quite a post to respond to. Let me start. 1) As regards the number of spells, I actually believe the current form casts less spells per day at each level except perhaps for the 8th and 9th level spells. But that can be changed fairly easily. I wasn't aware that all spellcasters got bonus spells according to stat bonuses. I thought it was only primary casters. shows how little I play secondary classes. :) 2) I think your table looks good. I'll check it over one more time, and I'll include it, barring any tweaks. 3) Personally speaking I don't think the fm would be any more powerful melee-wise than the druid or the cleric. Both have buffing spells, and the druid has his wildshape, which can give all sorts of stat boosts. Compare that to the fm who has his fists and whatever natural abilities (and if lucky for him the domain with stat boosts). No, I'd say they're even or perhaps even less with the damage of the fm capping at 1d10 at 20th level. 4) The fm is not actually prohibited from learning or using any weapons or armor. You'll just have to take a class level or blow a feat in order to get it. 5) Yeah, you can get the benefits from the War domain and use them. But unless you have a deity with unarmed strike as favored weapon (which you won't really find unless you do FR), it won't be all that effective (you'd be fighting as a cleric without the buffing ability). 6) Thanks for the input!
Dave1001 12-16-03, 08:40 PM	Originally posted by Asi the red Hey ya'. No I will not be your editor. But I will continue to give you my opinion, which is free and not subject to being altered with an excessive salary. OK, I undersatand about points 1-5 and the domain spells question, thanks for clearing them up. I'm also starting to come around to the keep the high level spells side of the discusion. In fact if DrakaraGM's spells per day table was used you'd have me convinced. It's just that at present getting the same level of spells only one level behind like the sorc. compared to the wiz. doesn't work for me. The two of them are spellcasting equals and the sorc gets the one level delay to balance his spontaneous casting. The FM and the cleric aren't supposed to be spellcasting equals and just limiting the spells known list (even to just one spell per level) leaves them too close in my mind. Oh yeah, I also ran the #'s through and it came out at 225 for me. This was my breakdown: total from top: 105 1st--5 (feat) 2nd-10 (enhanced one time) 4th--5 (feat) 6th--20 (moderate ability and fast movement) 8th--5 (feat) 10th-5 (one time ability) 12th-5 (feat) 14th-10 (enhanced one time) 16th-5 (feat) 18th-5 (one time ability) 20th-15 (enhanced one time and a feat) total: 90 Spell Capability- 10 Divine Spells- 48 Limited Spell List- -10 Wearing Armor affects all Abilities- -20 This comes out to 223 points (we'll call it 225), which is in fact, 15 points under the recommended 240. Unless you guys had Unarmed Specialization in as equivalent to Weapon Specialization instead of just as a regular feat. In which case add 25 to my total and it is 250. With DrakaraGM's spell per day chart the FM would be at 240, the recommended number of points. The FM may just be ready to go right where it is though. BrianMc223: I don't think that the FM is supposed to be a primary fighter. I always got the impression that he's supposed to be a secondary fighter like the Monk. I don't know if that's true or not though. Alright, that's all. Asi the Red I have yet to fully compare the two tables, but I'll probably make the changes tonight. I'm also thinking of doing the epic part of it tonight. And I intended the fm to be a more melee-oriented cleric/monk combo. Actually, it was inspired by the old fighting-monk kit from the 2nd ed Complete Priests Handbook. That was a cleric who effectively had the same THACO as a fighter, but had a heck of a lot more spells than the fm of 3.5 (mine). That alone I thought balanced it out. But some apparently disagree. :) So really, it's like a lesser monk with limited clerical abilities. Thus it's not entirely made to be a frontline fighter, but it can dish out somewhat better in pure melee.
Dave1001 12-16-03, 10:44 PM	okay, so I've added the Epic portion of the fighting-monk. However I've stumbled upon one problem. Unarmed Specialization has a progression of every 4 levels in non-epic play. Traditionally, that translates to a continuance in epic play (similar to wild shape, remove disease, etc. in other classes). And therein lies the problem. Unarmed Specialization gives a +1 bonus to attack and damage with unarmed strikes. Such a progression can't continue because then the fm would outstrip even the fighter (as all epic characters get 1/2 attack bonus to BAB). And the epic feat Epic Prowess gives a +1 to attack across the boards (but Unarmed Specialization only works on unarmed strikes). Should I make Unarmed Specialization an Epic feat? If so, how does that reflect on a core class gaining the ability in non-epic levels? What should I do?
Asi the red 12-17-03, 06:19 PM	Hey ya'. I don't know beans about the epic level stuff, but why don't you just have Unarmed Spec. be every 4 levels until level 20? If you still feel like giving it to them slow it down after 20th. Asi the Red.
Dave1001 12-17-03, 09:25 PM	Originally posted by Asi the red Hey ya'. I don't know beans about the epic level stuff, but why don't you just have Unarmed Spec. be every 4 levels until level 20? If you still feel like giving it to them slow it down after 20th. Asi the Red. I went ahead and made the spell table changes. Although all it did was add more low level and subtract 1 from higher levels. Anyway, I also made bonus spell slots according to high Wis available to fms. Unarmed Spec. is given every 4 levels until 20th. That's how they are fighting almost effectively as a fighter. But after 20th, it just becomes more powerful than even a fighter would get. And that is something I'm not sure how to handle.
Asi the red 12-17-03, 11:25 PM	Hey ya'. Um, rephrase my previous post... Have them not recieve Unarmed Spec. after 20th. They get it at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. No Unarmed Spec. at 24 or 28 or 32 etc. If they make it to level 100 they'll still only get it those 5 time. Asi the Red.
Dave1001 12-18-03, 07:08 AM	Originally posted by Asi the red Hey ya'. Um, rephrase my previous post... Have them not recieve Unarmed Spec. after 20th. They get it at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. No Unarmed Spec. at 24 or 28 or 32 etc. If they make it to level 100 they'll still only get it those 5 time. Asi the Red. do you think I should make it an epic feat, or just do away with it entirely? It wouldn't seem right to be getting an epic feat 5 times in the first 20 levels.
Asi the red 12-18-03, 03:26 PM	Hey ya'. I think it would be OK for them to just stop getting it after 20th. I mean, point out another core class that gets +5 attack and damage as a class ability. I don't think that it really needs to continue after 20th. Of course, you could let them use an Epic Feat to take it. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's an Epic calibre feat and is the equal of the Epic Feats, just that if you're desparate enough you can keep going. Seriously, I didn't really see a problem with Unarmed Spec being a feat before. That Monks could take it just represented that they were more focused on a certain aspect. Maybe the prerequisites were just too low... I don't really know anything about Epic level stuff, I don't own the book and My game will never make it to Epic levels so I'll probably never buy the book either. Asi the Red.
valishin 01-11-04, 07:08 AM	Have to agree this guys is too good. First off, even with only having access to the spells in a single domain getting 7,8,9 level spells is too much. You are making comparison to pure casting classes and that simply doesn't work. The existance of Miracle in and of itself is enough to show why this can't be allowed. Your a fighting class casting with access to some of the most powerful spells in the game and nothing to prevent you from using them willy nilly. The cleric can't afford to go that route because he still has to be able to heal. You on the other hand will likely remove 2 combatants from the fight before even engaging. That's a bit powerful for a fighting class don't you think? Now how to fix it. 1. Either let him use light armor and remove the wis bonus to armor. Or make his primary casting Cha based. You have wisdom effecting far to much for this guy by adding Wis based casting to the monks wis based AC benifit as well as the benift to stunning fist. 2. He is a hybrid melee/caster so ranger and paly spell progression is the equivilant of what you need. As this will cap him out at 4th level open him up to 2 domains and associated granted powers. 3. Mettle is too powerful that is a single ability on a pre-epic character granting the same effect that requires two seperate high end abilities of an epic character IE: Void Incarnate. This ability needs to be scraped and replace with something of a more approprate power level.
Dave1001 01-11-04, 02:49 PM	Originally posted by valishin Have to agree this guys is too good. First off, even with only having access to the spells in a single domain getting 7,8,9 level spells is too much. You are making comparison to pure casting classes and that simply doesn't work. The existance of Miracle in and of itself is enough to show why this can't be allowed. Your a fighting class casting with access to some of the most powerful spells in the game and nothing to prevent you from using them willy nilly. The cleric can't afford to go that route because he still has to be able to heal. You on the other hand will likely remove 2 combatants from the fight before even engaging. That's a bit powerful for a fighting class don't you think? It's a fighting class, yes, but not like the d10 classes. It's not as powerful in melee as a straight monk, or as a fighter. Or even a buffed cleric for that matter. It has a handful of spells. Some high level, yes. But those are the only spells you get. And since you cannot choose which spells you want as a full caster can, you're severly, severly limited. Additionally, the character is worse than a full caster in every respects. I do not think at all that it is overpowering. Now how to fix it. 1. Either let him use light armor and remove the wis bonus to armor. Or make his primary casting Cha based. You have wisdom effecting far to much for this guy by adding Wis based casting to the monks wis based AC benifit as well as the benift to stunning fist. Having Cha as the primary casting makes no sense. The ability doesn't come from himself. It comes from the deity. And that means Wis. Further, the character is a cleric/monk combo. Wearing light armor doesn't fit the unarmored monk concept. And the class doesn't get Stunning Fist as an ability. That means they'd have to take it as a feat, which means they can't get it until 11th or 12th level. Not overpowered at all. 2. He is a hybrid melee/caster so ranger and paly spell progression is the equivilant of what you need. As this will cap him out at 4th level open him up to 2 domains and associated granted powers. 3. Mettle is too powerful that is a single ability on a pre-epic character granting the same effect that requires two seperate high end abilities of an epic character IE: Void Incarnate. This ability needs to be scraped and replace with something of a more approprate power level. I like the spell progression, as limited as it is. And only having 2 domains available through 4th level spells would make him even more limited than the paladin or ranger. Having access to only 1 domain and only those spells really puts the impetus on choosing wisely. Mettle is an ability gained by the Templar PrC at first level. In fact, I think this fm gains it a level behind what a normal character gets. It's like a more limited form of evasion.
Hiei the Assassin 06-22-04, 11:02 PM	Originally posted by Asi the red The pic might be a Dragon Disciple, this would account for the coppery skin tone and the scales. You said it was from the Drac...nom...icon... so I don' actually know what's in there, so the Dragon Disciple is really just a guess based on what I know about dragon oriented classes. Actually it's just a human casting Dragon Skin (I think that's the name of the spell) and he's most likely a cleric.
The_Shaman 02-23-06, 03:39 PM	Can't a FM simply be additionally limited in their choice of domains? I'm no expert on D&D theology, but it makes sense that such a monk would only follow a deity of somewhat lawful tendencies, and that deity would bestow only particular favors (divine spells) upon such a... peculiar follower. Such as: Heironeous - all domains Moradin - all domains Ehlonna - doubtful (association with the hunt makes her a better matron goddess for a more impulsive, aggressive mentality), perhaps plant, good, possibly sun - without turning bonus feature Pelor - good, strength (possibly sun, see ehlonna) Wee Jas - Death, Law (she's a borderline case anyway, but may tie with the tradition of a more nihilistic sect) St. Cuthbert - all domains Hextor - all domains Nerull - death, evil (ok, Nerull is a bit problematic as well... the problem with wee jas squared - what kind of a monk order would that be?) Hopefully that should solve the miracle problem Also, perhaps a TN F-monk could select Obad-Hai as a deity, and gain 1 elemental domain (animal seems a little too... chaotic for such a disciplined combatant) Aside from that, the idea seems nice. I think this was asked, but just to check... Does a FM gain bonuses with attack or damage with a (possibly enchanted) gauntlet or a pair of gloves? I liked the NWN idea of gloves giving attack boni and elemental damage, although it might have been superfluous to some.
scaledwingofsmog 03-01-06, 01:20 AM	First off, even with only having access to the spells in a single domain getting 7,8,9 level spells is too much. You are making comparison to pure casting classes and that simply doesn't work. The existance of Miracle in and of itself is enough to show why this can't be allowed. Your a fighting class casting with access to some of the most powerful spells in the game and nothing to prevent you from using them willy nilly. The cleric can't afford to go that route because he still has to be able to heal. You on the other hand will likely remove 2 combatants from the fight before even engaging. That's a bit powerful for a fighting class don't you think? IMHO this is a flawed argument since clerics can spontaneous drop ANY spell to cast a healing spell of the same lvl. Also what would stop a cleric from taking miracle all 5 times to b able to cast any healing spell need 1st thru 7th lvl which is far more than the fm could do. Im thinking that this progresion table is an appliable way to handle this class.
scaledwingofsmog 03-01-06, 01:27 AM	okay, so I've added the Epic portion of the fighting-monk. However I've stumbled upon one problem. Unarmed Specialization has a progression of every 4 levels in non-epic play. Traditionally, that translates to a continuance in epic play (similar to wild shape, remove disease, etc. in other classes). And therein lies the problem. Unarmed Specialization gives a +1 bonus to attack and damage with unarmed strikes. Such a progression can't continue because then the fm would outstrip even the fighter (as all epic characters get 1/2 attack bonus to BAB). And the epic feat Epic Prowess gives a +1 to attack across the boards (but Unarmed Specialization only works on unarmed strikes). Should I make Unarmed Specialization an Epic feat? If so, how does that reflect on a core class gaining the ability in non-epic levels? What should I do? While it may be more work, could the easiest way to fix this be just renaming it everytime it is gained?? Unarmed Spec Improved Unarmed Spec Advanced Unarmed Spec Greater Unarmed Spec Superior Unarmed Spec This way u still get the bonuses you want but since its a new ability every time it cant escalate via epic lvls ??