3.5 Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

3.5 Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
seekanddestroy
02-12-08, 06:46 PM I am pretty new to D&D. My DM has most of the books core and others. I want to play a human Rogue. He is not into maxing out a character. I'm just wondering the best place to put my stats, feats, and weapon choice. I have never played a Rogue and don't want to mess him up from the start. Once I play the character some I should be able to make better decisions.

Stats
18
17
17
15
12
10

He would probaly let me multiclass one time.
If you need more info let me know.
dman11235
02-12-08, 06:51 PM Go to CharOp. They'll be more help for this.

One thing I can say is that CScoundrel is your friend, if only for Savvy Rogue. Dealing strength damage to things normally immune is awesome. Also, you'll want to have stats be dex 18, con 17, int 17, cha 15, wis 12, str 10. If possible, see if you can move them around a bit, to get str of 13, cha and wis of 14, and int 16. If you want you can also lower your con to 16 and then up cha to 15 and str to 14.
Howland Reed
02-12-08, 07:08 PM I'd go Dex 18 and Con 17 definitely...after that, depends on your priorities.

--Want social skills? 17 Cha, 15 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Str. Good in general, especially if you intend to multiclass into a Cha-based caster (Bard, Sorcerer, etc)
--Want combat potential? 17 Str, 15 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha. Good if you intend to multiclass into a fighting-class.
--Want extra skills? 17 Int, 15 Cha/Str, 12 Wis, 10 Cha/Str. Good in general (tons of skill points), but especially if you intend to multiclass into an Int-based caster (Wizard, or better yet Beguiler).
--Plan to multiclass Monk/Swordsage? Put at least a 15 in Wis.
--While Str makes a good dump, you can just as easily dump Cha (if you don't care about social skills), Wis (you'll be maxing Spot/Listen anyway, most likely), or even Int (you already have a lot of skill points...but this isn't good if you plan to multiclass into lower-skill classes).

For feats/weapons, since you're going to be Dex heavy I'd go with a light weapon (shortsword is probably best), and look into Weapon Finesse and/or Deadly Defense, maybe Shadow Blade if you dip Swordsage later on. Improved Initiative is always good for catching people flat-footed. Telling Blow (PHII) is a nice way to get sneak attack damage more often.

Basically though, "rogue" is almost as general as "fighter". What kind of character concept do you have?
VulcanStormwrath
02-12-08, 07:18 PM Second the CS for the skill Tricks and ambush feats.
seekanddestroy
02-12-08, 07:20 PM What is CS?
VulcanStormwrath
02-12-08, 07:27 PM What is CS?

Complete Bastard...I mean ...Scoundrel.
seekanddestroy
02-12-08, 07:33 PM Which book is it in?
Hideous Phidias
02-12-08, 07:51 PM What kind of rogue do you want to be, a rogue focused on skills or one focused on battle and sneak attack?

The best thing you can do is stay rogue pick your feats well and work with the fighters your group. For a damage focus rogue I would look a the the swashbuckler class and the feat daring outlaw. I built one for a Ptolus game, and he could out damage the fighter and mage put together. For the skill focus rogue you become god around tenth level. The rogue special abilities you will start make you job more easier. Skill focus does not look like a good thing but out of the special abilities it will be the one that you use the most. Taking ten is always a good thing and even better when you can do it with out worry. The most important think for any rogue is to keep up the skills search, disable devise, open lock, tumble, and use magical devise.

Feats:
Telling Blow
Flick of the Wrist
Improved Feint
Weapon Focus
Improved Critical
Improved Trip
Two Weapon Fighting
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Shot

Weapons:
Rapier
Whip
Dagger whip
Short Bow
seekanddestroy
02-12-08, 08:00 PM Man that sounds cool. I don't know if you need to know but we will be playing in the Forgotten Realms.
Hideous Phidias
02-12-08, 08:11 PM Books to look at are Complete Adventure, Complete Scoundrel, and Player's Handbook 2
seekanddestroy
02-12-08, 08:21 PM Thanks
Hideous Phidias
02-12-08, 08:30 PM A few Forgotten Realms Regional feat you may want to look at Fearless, Luck of Heroes, Militia, Strong Soul, Swift and Silent, and Twin Sword Style.
Hideous Phidias
02-12-08, 09:49 PM The build I would go with for a Human Rogue in the Realms.

Rogue4/Swashbuckler16

As for your stats I would put the high ones in Con Dex and Int. The Con will help out the low hit points of the rogue levels. The Dex is always a must for a light armor character. The Int is good for skill point, which you can never get enough of, and insight strike abilities of the swashbucklers. the 15 would do well in Cha and the 12 in to Str.

First level would be Luck of Heroes as your Regional, Able Learner as your human bonus feat and Telling Blow as the last. Able learner will help you keep up you rogue skills when you take swashbuckler levels. Third level Weapon Finesse, Dex to melee attack is always a bonus to a low strength character. Sixth level Take Daring Outlaw fro Complete Scoundrel, it will allow you to keep up your sneak attack during swashbuckler levels.

The rest of the feat really depend on what fighting style you use. I like the dagger whip it gave me reach. Two weapon fighting is a good feat for this keep it in your off hand and a rapier in the main.
Orchomenos
02-13-08, 09:15 AM The build I would go with for a Human Rogue in the Realms.

Rogue4/Swashbuckler16

As for your stats I would put the high ones in Con Dex and Int. The Con will help out the low hit points of the rogue levels. The Dex is always a must for a light armor character. The Int is good for skill point, which you can never get enough of, and insight strike abilities of the swashbucklers. the 15 would do well in Cha and the 12 in to Str.

First time I see someone suggesting more than 3 levels of Swashbuckler... :confused:

In combat, the rogue's main force is sneak attack. You must understand it works for each attack you make in a round. There are two conditions when you can apply sneak attack: 1) the target is flat-footed; 2) you flank the target.

A target is flat-footed if you act before. So if you're able to act in the surprise round (before the target), you can sneak attack; good Listen & Spot modifiers can help you detect the target, good Hide & Move Silently modifiers can help you to not be detected. And if you can have a better Initiative roll than the target (thanks to high Dexterity and the feat Improved Initiative), the target is still flat-footed and you can sneak attack.
The advantage of this tactic is you can attack with a range weapon, up to 30'. The drawback is as soon as your target acted in a combat, she is no longer flat-footed. There are some tricks to keep the target flat-footed (Greater Invisibility Spell, or a Ring of Invisibility), or the make the target flat-footed again (Flick of the Wrist feat, Feint (only in melee though), Bluff & Hide).
Another decent tactic could be to have an ally grapple the target; the target would loose her Dexterity bonus to AC and would be flat-footed.

Flanking is more strait-forward: you and an ally are on each side of the target. But this is more dangerous, since you are in melee with the target. That's why you would need a great Constitution and armor. The Two-Weapons Fighting feat chain can give you more melee attacks each round, and all these attacks are sneak attacks. As long as both you and your ally are flanking the target, you can keep on rolling tons of d6; but as soon as either of you are disabled, this stop. So make sure to have a though ally who can keep his ground!
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 10:05 AM Thanks guys this is helping a lot.
spectralphoenix
02-13-08, 10:42 AM It also depends on whether you want to go straight rogue or multiclass. Personally, I like Rogue 16/Fighter 4 (Weapon Specialization, increased BAB, and extra proficiencies outweigh slight loss in abilities IMO) Rogue 15/Fighter 4/ Barbarian 1 (No loss in SA, be sure to take extra rage) or Rogue 6/Fighter 4/Assassin 10 (if you're evil or can convince the DM that the "always evil" requirement is moronic.)

I see a lot of people suggest STR as a dump stat for rogues, but I prefer having a higher strength - a 17 instead of a 10 basically gives you an extra SA die that can be used all the time, in addition to various other benefits. You can take EWP bastard sword instead of Weapon finnesse to increase your damage even further. Two-bladed swords are also a possibility if you don't want to take Oversized TWF (but it makes you vulnerable to Darth Maul references.)

If you have access to non-core books, look out for equipment/abilities that let you use SA on normally immune creatures (particularly undead and constructs, since the rest don't show up as much.) If you can't either deal SA or have a good damage output anyway, you're basically a spectator in those fights (and no, Aid Another does not count as participation. People who say that have probably never actually played a rogue.)
Hyrax
02-13-08, 11:32 AM First time I see someone suggesting more than 3 levels of Swashbuckler... :confused:

In combat, the rogue's main force is sneak attack. You must understand it works for each attack you make in a round. There are two conditions when you can apply sneak attack: 1) the target is flat-footed; 2) you flank the target.

A target is flat-footed if you act before. So if you're able to act in the surprise round (before the target), you can sneak attack; good Listen & Spot modifiers can help you detect the target, good Hide & Move Silently modifiers can help you to not be detected. And if you can have a better Initiative roll than the target (thanks to high Dexterity and the feat Improved Initiative), the target is still flat-footed and you can sneak attack.
The advantage of this tactic is you can attack with a range weapon, up to 30'. The drawback is as soon as your target acted in a combat, she is no longer flat-footed. There are some tricks to keep the target flat-footed (Greater Invisibility Spell, or a Ring of Invisibility), or the make the target flat-footed again (Flick of the Wrist feat, Feint (only in melee though), Bluff & Hide).
Another decent tactic could be to have an ally grapple the target; the target would loose her Dexterity bonus to AC and would be flat-footed.

Flanking is more strait-forward: you and an ally are on each side of the target. But this is more dangerous, since you are in melee with the target. That's why you would need a great Constitution and armor. The Two-Weapons Fighting feat chain can give you more melee attacks each round, and all these attacks are sneak attacks. As long as both you and your ally are flanking the target, you can keep on rolling tons of d6; but as soon as either of you are disabled, this stop. So make sure to have a though ally who can keep his ground!

rogue 4/swash 16 - because you can take the daring outlaw feat from complete scoundrel... this feat allows you to add swash and rogue lvls for purposes of defining your total sneak attack damage.

the swashbuckler (complete warrior) has a fighter base attack bonus and better Hit Points, combined with a rogue makes a better melee combatant, however, you won't be as skill heavy.

So if you want to be more of a fighter that's a good way to go, otherwise just stick with rogue and be the guy who can disarm any trap, and find any hidden doorway, and be more of a support fighter.

Rogue is a great first class too, enjoy.

as for stats... I think dex, int, cha for skill heavy or dex, str, con for combat heavy for your highest stats

and, as many have mentioned... skill tricks are great... but they do rely heavily on game mechanics. So, make sure you get the DM's help if you have questions about how certain skills work.

Good Luck
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 01:10 PM This character is gonna be more skill heavy.
mtbOgre
02-13-08, 01:22 PM This character is gonna be more skill heavy.

Then as many people suggested INT is important for a skills build. The rogue also has quite a few CHA based skills including one of the best skills in the game Use Magic Device. Pretty much lets you use any magic item in the game. Another excellent CHA based skill is Bluff. It has a ton of uses plus when you get 5 ranks you get skill synergy with 4 other skills which is nice.
Orchomenos
02-13-08, 03:37 PM rogue 4/swash 16 - because you can take the daring outlaw feat from complete scoundrel... this feat allows you to add swash and rogue lvls for purposes of defining your total sneak attack damage.

Ah! Now it does make sense! This is... evil! :smirk:
runestar
02-14-08, 08:05 AM 1 lv of swordsage (tome of battle) lets you potentially add your dex mod to damage (shadow blade) with a select few weapons, so unless you have no better use for a 17, you can usually afford to dump str. It can also help mitigate a rogue's traditional weaknesses (eg: mind over body vs will-save) and complement his strengths (eg: cloak of shadow gives you greater invis as a swift action, good synergy with your sneak attacks).

You will have to time your swordsage lvs properly to get the maximum bang for your buck (using taking 1 lv every few lvs to benefit from initiator lv boosts).
FearlessFreddy
02-14-08, 10:31 AM A second level of swordsage (if well timed) can grab Assassin's Stance, which boosts sneak attacks by 2d6. If we're going that route, I might suggest having a look at the daring swordsage (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Daring_Swordsage) :)
Jutter
02-14-08, 11:28 AM This character is gonna be more skill heavy.

Then you might want to put the 18 in Int, and the two 17s in Dex and Con. Upgrade those to 18 at levels 4 and 8.
The_Shaman
02-14-08, 11:52 AM And go for swashie 4/rogue 14; get daring outlaw and the shield of blades variant and go for TWF. If you're in the FR, the Twin Swords Style regional feat may be worthwhile if it gave dodge bonus... I don't have PGtF with me atm. If not, the Luck of heroes feat is golden.
Mad_Jack
02-14-08, 09:39 PM Put the 18 in Dex, and one of the 17's into Int... Like the others have said, if you multiclass then go for swashbuckler - between the swash's 4 skill points per level, tumble as a class skill, and the daring outlaw feat, it modifies the "rogue" flavor of the character instead of distracting from it.

If you wanted to put the 15 into your strength, you could take exotic weapon proficiency with the spiked chain - it's a two-handed finesse weapon, so you get the 1.5x strength bonus, plus it has reach, so you threaten more squares. You don't need to be standing directly toe-to-toe with someone to flank them or get an attack of opportunity. If you take several levels of swashbuckler, you'll benefit from the swash's free weapon finesse at 1st level, bonus to an already great reflex save at 2nd level, and insightful strike at 3rd level.

A spiked chain does 2-8 damage, and with a strength of 15 (x1.5 for 2-hand weapon) you'd add +3 to that for 5-11 damage. If you add in the Insightful Strike from the 3rd level of swashbuckler, and you put one of those 17's into intelligence, that's another + 3 for 8-14 damage on every attack, which is pretty spiffy for a non-frontline combatant.

Just on a general level, since you'll have major amounts of skill points, don't forget to spend a few of them in creative ways...
- If you have Complete Scoundrel, look into the skill tricks - several of them are great for rogues
- Don't forget some of the less rogue-ish class skills like diplomacy and sense motive
- If you have leftover skill points after you pump your rogue skills, put them into certain cross-class skills that will be useful - healing is a great skill for a rogue, since the party's healer won't always be able to get to the front-line guys if they go down in a crowded area. Even a couple ranks in healing will give you a decent chance of stabilizing someone if they go below 0 hp. Survival or Speak Language can also be useful.
Nightshade
02-15-08, 12:20 AM I agree with Jutter.

Stats: 18 should go into INT to maximize starting skills. 17's should go into Con and Dex. Raise Dex with level adjustments. 15 in Str, 12 in Cha, 10 in Wis.

Go Human for the feat and skills. With 18 Int, you'll start with 52 skill points as a level 1 Rogue and then take Swash 1 at level 2, then it's up to you but I recommend only taking swash up to 3. Remember to optimize your synergy bonuses.

Rogue 17/Swash 3

S1- Weapon Finesse
1- Combat Exp
H- Imp Trip
3- Two-Weapon Fighting
6- Daring Outlaw
9- Imp Feint
12- Telling blow
15- Craven (not sure of the prereqs)
18- ???

Able Learner feat is virtually pointless since Rogues get practically every skill as a class skill already.
Fighters make much better chain fighters cause using a spiked chain well is very feat intensive. I recommend against it.
The_Shaman
02-15-08, 04:49 AM Nightshade, I don't think there's a good reason for taking that last rogue level. It doesn't give you BAB for a 4th itirative attack, it doesn't improve your saves - any of them - it doesn't give you a rogue HLA either...I don't think I'd bother, really.
Nightshade
02-15-08, 11:14 AM Nightshade, I don't think there's a good reason for taking that last rogue level. It doesn't give you BAB for a 4th itirative attack, it doesn't improve your saves - any of them - it doesn't give you a rogue HLA either...I don't think I'd bother, really.

Oh, yeah, you're right. Then Rogue 16/Swash 4 was the right call.

And maybe take Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 18.

I've seen some of those skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel and they look pretty darn good. Jumping back to your feet from a prone position without taking an attack of opportunity is sooo useful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seekanddestroy 02-12-08, 06:46 PM	I am pretty new to D&D. My DM has most of the books core and others. I want to play a human Rogue. He is not into maxing out a character. I'm just wondering the best place to put my stats, feats, and weapon choice. I have never played a Rogue and don't want to mess him up from the start. Once I play the character some I should be able to make better decisions. Stats 18 17 17 15 12 10 He would probaly let me multiclass one time. If you need more info let me know.
dman11235 02-12-08, 06:51 PM	Go to CharOp. They'll be more help for this. One thing I can say is that CScoundrel is your friend, if only for Savvy Rogue. Dealing strength damage to things normally immune is awesome. Also, you'll want to have stats be dex 18, con 17, int 17, cha 15, wis 12, str 10. If possible, see if you can move them around a bit, to get str of 13, cha and wis of 14, and int 16. If you want you can also lower your con to 16 and then up cha to 15 and str to 14.
Howland Reed 02-12-08, 07:08 PM	I'd go Dex 18 and Con 17 definitely...after that, depends on your priorities. --Want social skills? 17 Cha, 15 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Str. Good in general, especially if you intend to multiclass into a Cha-based caster (Bard, Sorcerer, etc) --Want combat potential? 17 Str, 15 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha. Good if you intend to multiclass into a fighting-class. --Want extra skills? 17 Int, 15 Cha/Str, 12 Wis, 10 Cha/Str. Good in general (tons of skill points), but especially if you intend to multiclass into an Int-based caster (Wizard, or better yet Beguiler). --Plan to multiclass Monk/Swordsage? Put at least a 15 in Wis. --While Str makes a good dump, you can just as easily dump Cha (if you don't care about social skills), Wis (you'll be maxing Spot/Listen anyway, most likely), or even Int (you already have a lot of skill points...but this isn't good if you plan to multiclass into lower-skill classes). For feats/weapons, since you're going to be Dex heavy I'd go with a light weapon (shortsword is probably best), and look into Weapon Finesse and/or Deadly Defense, maybe Shadow Blade if you dip Swordsage later on. Improved Initiative is always good for catching people flat-footed. Telling Blow (PHII) is a nice way to get sneak attack damage more often. Basically though, "rogue" is almost as general as "fighter". What kind of character concept do you have?
VulcanStormwrath 02-12-08, 07:18 PM	Second the CS for the skill Tricks and ambush feats.
seekanddestroy 02-12-08, 07:20 PM	What is CS?
VulcanStormwrath 02-12-08, 07:27 PM	What is CS? Complete Bastard...I mean ...Scoundrel.
seekanddestroy 02-12-08, 07:33 PM	Which book is it in?
Hideous Phidias 02-12-08, 07:51 PM	What kind of rogue do you want to be, a rogue focused on skills or one focused on battle and sneak attack? The best thing you can do is stay rogue pick your feats well and work with the fighters your group. For a damage focus rogue I would look a the the swashbuckler class and the feat daring outlaw. I built one for a Ptolus game, and he could out damage the fighter and mage put together. For the skill focus rogue you become god around tenth level. The rogue special abilities you will start make you job more easier. Skill focus does not look like a good thing but out of the special abilities it will be the one that you use the most. Taking ten is always a good thing and even better when you can do it with out worry. The most important think for any rogue is to keep up the skills search, disable devise, open lock, tumble, and use magical devise. Feats: Telling Blow Flick of the Wrist Improved Feint Weapon Focus Improved Critical Improved Trip Two Weapon Fighting Rapid Shot Point Blank Shot Weapons: Rapier Whip Dagger whip Short Bow
seekanddestroy 02-12-08, 08:00 PM	Man that sounds cool. I don't know if you need to know but we will be playing in the Forgotten Realms.
Hideous Phidias 02-12-08, 08:11 PM	Books to look at are Complete Adventure, Complete Scoundrel, and Player's Handbook 2
seekanddestroy 02-12-08, 08:21 PM	Thanks
Hideous Phidias 02-12-08, 08:30 PM	A few Forgotten Realms Regional feat you may want to look at Fearless, Luck of Heroes, Militia, Strong Soul, Swift and Silent, and Twin Sword Style.
Hideous Phidias 02-12-08, 09:49 PM	The build I would go with for a Human Rogue in the Realms. Rogue4/Swashbuckler16 As for your stats I would put the high ones in Con Dex and Int. The Con will help out the low hit points of the rogue levels. The Dex is always a must for a light armor character. The Int is good for skill point, which you can never get enough of, and insight strike abilities of the swashbucklers. the 15 would do well in Cha and the 12 in to Str. First level would be Luck of Heroes as your Regional, Able Learner as your human bonus feat and Telling Blow as the last. Able learner will help you keep up you rogue skills when you take swashbuckler levels. Third level Weapon Finesse, Dex to melee attack is always a bonus to a low strength character. Sixth level Take Daring Outlaw fro Complete Scoundrel, it will allow you to keep up your sneak attack during swashbuckler levels. The rest of the feat really depend on what fighting style you use. I like the dagger whip it gave me reach. Two weapon fighting is a good feat for this keep it in your off hand and a rapier in the main.
Orchomenos 02-13-08, 09:15 AM	The build I would go with for a Human Rogue in the Realms. Rogue4/Swashbuckler16 As for your stats I would put the high ones in Con Dex and Int. The Con will help out the low hit points of the rogue levels. The Dex is always a must for a light armor character. The Int is good for skill point, which you can never get enough of, and insight strike abilities of the swashbucklers. the 15 would do well in Cha and the 12 in to Str. First time I see someone suggesting more than 3 levels of Swashbuckler... :confused: In combat, the rogue's main force is sneak attack. You must understand it works for each attack you make in a round. There are two conditions when you can apply sneak attack: 1) the target is flat-footed; 2) you flank the target. A target is flat-footed if you act before. So if you're able to act in the surprise round (before the target), you can sneak attack; good Listen & Spot modifiers can help you detect the target, good Hide & Move Silently modifiers can help you to not be detected. And if you can have a better Initiative roll than the target (thanks to high Dexterity and the feat Improved Initiative), the target is still flat-footed and you can sneak attack. The advantage of this tactic is you can attack with a range weapon, up to 30'. The drawback is as soon as your target acted in a combat, she is no longer flat-footed. There are some tricks to keep the target flat-footed (Greater Invisibility Spell, or a Ring of Invisibility), or the make the target flat-footed again (Flick of the Wrist feat, Feint (only in melee though), Bluff & Hide). Another decent tactic could be to have an ally grapple the target; the target would loose her Dexterity bonus to AC and would be flat-footed. Flanking is more strait-forward: you and an ally are on each side of the target. But this is more dangerous, since you are in melee with the target. That's why you would need a great Constitution and armor. The Two-Weapons Fighting feat chain can give you more melee attacks each round, and all these attacks are sneak attacks. As long as both you and your ally are flanking the target, you can keep on rolling tons of d6; but as soon as either of you are disabled, this stop. So make sure to have a though ally who can keep his ground!
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 10:05 AM	Thanks guys this is helping a lot.
spectralphoenix 02-13-08, 10:42 AM	It also depends on whether you want to go straight rogue or multiclass. Personally, I like Rogue 16/Fighter 4 (Weapon Specialization, increased BAB, and extra proficiencies outweigh slight loss in abilities IMO) Rogue 15/Fighter 4/ Barbarian 1 (No loss in SA, be sure to take extra rage) or Rogue 6/Fighter 4/Assassin 10 (if you're evil or can convince the DM that the "always evil" requirement is moronic.) I see a lot of people suggest STR as a dump stat for rogues, but I prefer having a higher strength - a 17 instead of a 10 basically gives you an extra SA die that can be used all the time, in addition to various other benefits. You can take EWP bastard sword instead of Weapon finnesse to increase your damage even further. Two-bladed swords are also a possibility if you don't want to take Oversized TWF (but it makes you vulnerable to Darth Maul references.) If you have access to non-core books, look out for equipment/abilities that let you use SA on normally immune creatures (particularly undead and constructs, since the rest don't show up as much.) If you can't either deal SA or have a good damage output anyway, you're basically a spectator in those fights (and no, Aid Another does not count as participation. People who say that have probably never actually played a rogue.)
Hyrax 02-13-08, 11:32 AM	First time I see someone suggesting more than 3 levels of Swashbuckler... :confused: In combat, the rogue's main force is sneak attack. You must understand it works for each attack you make in a round. There are two conditions when you can apply sneak attack: 1) the target is flat-footed; 2) you flank the target. A target is flat-footed if you act before. So if you're able to act in the surprise round (before the target), you can sneak attack; good Listen & Spot modifiers can help you detect the target, good Hide & Move Silently modifiers can help you to not be detected. And if you can have a better Initiative roll than the target (thanks to high Dexterity and the feat Improved Initiative), the target is still flat-footed and you can sneak attack. The advantage of this tactic is you can attack with a range weapon, up to 30'. The drawback is as soon as your target acted in a combat, she is no longer flat-footed. There are some tricks to keep the target flat-footed (Greater Invisibility Spell, or a Ring of Invisibility), or the make the target flat-footed again (Flick of the Wrist feat, Feint (only in melee though), Bluff & Hide). Another decent tactic could be to have an ally grapple the target; the target would loose her Dexterity bonus to AC and would be flat-footed. Flanking is more strait-forward: you and an ally are on each side of the target. But this is more dangerous, since you are in melee with the target. That's why you would need a great Constitution and armor. The Two-Weapons Fighting feat chain can give you more melee attacks each round, and all these attacks are sneak attacks. As long as both you and your ally are flanking the target, you can keep on rolling tons of d6; but as soon as either of you are disabled, this stop. So make sure to have a though ally who can keep his ground! rogue 4/swash 16 - because you can take the daring outlaw feat from complete scoundrel... this feat allows you to add swash and rogue lvls for purposes of defining your total sneak attack damage. the swashbuckler (complete warrior) has a fighter base attack bonus and better Hit Points, combined with a rogue makes a better melee combatant, however, you won't be as skill heavy. So if you want to be more of a fighter that's a good way to go, otherwise just stick with rogue and be the guy who can disarm any trap, and find any hidden doorway, and be more of a support fighter. Rogue is a great first class too, enjoy. as for stats... I think dex, int, cha for skill heavy or dex, str, con for combat heavy for your highest stats and, as many have mentioned... skill tricks are great... but they do rely heavily on game mechanics. So, make sure you get the DM's help if you have questions about how certain skills work. Good Luck
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 01:10 PM	This character is gonna be more skill heavy.
mtbOgre 02-13-08, 01:22 PM	This character is gonna be more skill heavy. Then as many people suggested INT is important for a skills build. The rogue also has quite a few CHA based skills including one of the best skills in the game Use Magic Device. Pretty much lets you use any magic item in the game. Another excellent CHA based skill is Bluff. It has a ton of uses plus when you get 5 ranks you get skill synergy with 4 other skills which is nice.
Orchomenos 02-13-08, 03:37 PM	rogue 4/swash 16 - because you can take the daring outlaw feat from complete scoundrel... this feat allows you to add swash and rogue lvls for purposes of defining your total sneak attack damage. Ah! Now it does make sense! This is... evil! :smirk:
runestar 02-14-08, 08:05 AM	1 lv of swordsage (tome of battle) lets you potentially add your dex mod to damage (shadow blade) with a select few weapons, so unless you have no better use for a 17, you can usually afford to dump str. It can also help mitigate a rogue's traditional weaknesses (eg: mind over body vs will-save) and complement his strengths (eg: cloak of shadow gives you greater invis as a swift action, good synergy with your sneak attacks). You will have to time your swordsage lvs properly to get the maximum bang for your buck (using taking 1 lv every few lvs to benefit from initiator lv boosts).
FearlessFreddy 02-14-08, 10:31 AM	A second level of swordsage (if well timed) can grab Assassin's Stance, which boosts sneak attacks by 2d6. If we're going that route, I might suggest having a look at the daring swordsage (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Daring_Swordsage) :)
Jutter 02-14-08, 11:28 AM	This character is gonna be more skill heavy. Then you might want to put the 18 in Int, and the two 17s in Dex and Con. Upgrade those to 18 at levels 4 and 8.
The_Shaman 02-14-08, 11:52 AM	And go for swashie 4/rogue 14; get daring outlaw and the shield of blades variant and go for TWF. If you're in the FR, the Twin Swords Style regional feat may be worthwhile if it gave dodge bonus... I don't have PGtF with me atm. If not, the Luck of heroes feat is golden.
Mad_Jack 02-14-08, 09:39 PM	Put the 18 in Dex, and one of the 17's into Int... Like the others have said, if you multiclass then go for swashbuckler - between the swash's 4 skill points per level, tumble as a class skill, and the daring outlaw feat, it modifies the "rogue" flavor of the character instead of distracting from it. If you wanted to put the 15 into your strength, you could take exotic weapon proficiency with the spiked chain - it's a two-handed finesse weapon, so you get the 1.5x strength bonus, plus it has reach, so you threaten more squares. You don't need to be standing directly toe-to-toe with someone to flank them or get an attack of opportunity. If you take several levels of swashbuckler, you'll benefit from the swash's free weapon finesse at 1st level, bonus to an already great reflex save at 2nd level, and insightful strike at 3rd level. A spiked chain does 2-8 damage, and with a strength of 15 (x1.5 for 2-hand weapon) you'd add +3 to that for 5-11 damage. If you add in the Insightful Strike from the 3rd level of swashbuckler, and you put one of those 17's into intelligence, that's another + 3 for 8-14 damage on every attack, which is pretty spiffy for a non-frontline combatant. Just on a general level, since you'll have major amounts of skill points, don't forget to spend a few of them in creative ways... - If you have Complete Scoundrel, look into the skill tricks - several of them are great for rogues - Don't forget some of the less rogue-ish class skills like diplomacy and sense motive - If you have leftover skill points after you pump your rogue skills, put them into certain cross-class skills that will be useful - healing is a great skill for a rogue, since the party's healer won't always be able to get to the front-line guys if they go down in a crowded area. Even a couple ranks in healing will give you a decent chance of stabilizing someone if they go below 0 hp. Survival or Speak Language can also be useful.
Nightshade 02-15-08, 12:20 AM	I agree with Jutter. Stats: 18 should go into INT to maximize starting skills. 17's should go into Con and Dex. Raise Dex with level adjustments. 15 in Str, 12 in Cha, 10 in Wis. Go Human for the feat and skills. With 18 Int, you'll start with 52 skill points as a level 1 Rogue and then take Swash 1 at level 2, then it's up to you but I recommend only taking swash up to 3. Remember to optimize your synergy bonuses. Rogue 17/Swash 3 S1- Weapon Finesse 1- Combat Exp H- Imp Trip 3- Two-Weapon Fighting 6- Daring Outlaw 9- Imp Feint 12- Telling blow 15- Craven (not sure of the prereqs) 18- ??? Able Learner feat is virtually pointless since Rogues get practically every skill as a class skill already. Fighters make much better chain fighters cause using a spiked chain well is very feat intensive. I recommend against it.
The_Shaman 02-15-08, 04:49 AM	Nightshade, I don't think there's a good reason for taking that last rogue level. It doesn't give you BAB for a 4th itirative attack, it doesn't improve your saves - any of them - it doesn't give you a rogue HLA either...I don't think I'd bother, really.
Nightshade 02-15-08, 11:14 AM	Nightshade, I don't think there's a good reason for taking that last rogue level. It doesn't give you BAB for a 4th itirative attack, it doesn't improve your saves - any of them - it doesn't give you a rogue HLA either...I don't think I'd bother, really. Oh, yeah, you're right. Then Rogue 16/Swash 4 was the right call. And maybe take Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 18. I've seen some of those skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel and they look pretty darn good. Jumping back to your feet from a prone position without taking an attack of opportunity is sooo useful.