3.5 shapeshifter help [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 shapeshifter help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shyune
08-06-05, 09:21 PM I’ve been reading the boards for some time now, but this is my first post. I’ve come across many a “build” and have noticed how everyone gives tips and what not, so I was wondering if you could now put your collective genius to help me out.

I want to make a shapeshifter, preferably Wizard/Master Transmogrifist. Because of personal preferences I’m going to be a changeling and take the racial substitution levels (except the 10th) as I reach them. So far, what I have is as follows:

Zas
Changeling Wizard (10) / Manster Transmogrifist (10)
Abilities (32 Point Buy)
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 16
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 14

Hp: 20d4 + 40 (80 average)
Ac: 11 (not including items and what not, which I’m not at liberty to say what I’ll get…)
Touch: 11 Flat-footed: 10
BaB: +10/+5
Attack: (Quarterstaff) +9/+4

Saves
Fort: +8
Ref: +7
Will: +14

Skills
125 skill points (4 + int from racial substitution levels at 1st and 5th)
Undecided on how to spend them.

Feats
2 Wizard bonus feats (scribe scroll replaced with a bonus feat as house rule variant)
7 Normal feats.
Undecided on how to spend them.

Spells per day (Specialized in Transmutation) (Caster Level 20th? I’m not sure.)
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

5 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 (With specialization and intelligence bonus)

Morphic familiar with the following powers:
Natural Armor + 5
Intelligence: 10
Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, Deliver touch spells, Speak with master, Speak with animals of its kind.
Special Abilities:

Extended Change
Favored Shape (7) No clue what they should be…
Manifest Senses
Battle Mastery +6
Effortless Change
Shapechanger sub-type and unlimited alter self duration.
Reflexive Change
Manifest Qualities
Infinite Variety

That’s the majority of the class however I still need a lot of help. As you can see I haven’t decided on my skills or feats yet and have no idea what the favored shapes should be (since I’m not sure what monsters are truly powerful for their level).
On a side note, I don’t really know how the polymorph works, other than what’s written on the spell itself. If anyone could provide links or clarify it, please help.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.
stamhaven
08-06-05, 11:22 PM First off shape change magic is one of the most often houseruled subsets of rules (with good reason). You should set down with your DM and figure out what parameters you've got to work with for forms known (which source books, do you need to write a history/reason to have met them etc.) Also you'll be just shy of shapechange (the godfather of all shapechanging magic with caster level 16, you may consider a +1 LA outsider race to open up their forms with polymorph (many potent forms become availible to transmogs with that race). Having an elemental or outsider race opens new forms to polymorph but not as favored forms since those have to be different type from your own.

Favored shapes are mostly useful for their combat and utility effectiveness, so picking forms that will be useful in those situations is your best bet. Their mix and match abilities let you pick very one sided critters (tentacle monster natural attacks with massive bruiser/giant for stats). Anything with high CR/HD ratios will likely be great except those with major SU abilities which you won't get access too. Draconomicon has a great polymorph spell which works like regular but adds boosts to physical stats of the base creature.

Feats: practiced spellcaster is practically a must and transmutation specialist is worth considering to get the extra spells per day.
Shyune
08-07-05, 10:18 AM I'll keep what you said in mind. My DM is going by familiarity rules of me having encountered the creature or done extensive research on it (that is to say, at least 1 day/HD, expending money each day and what not). However, i still dont know very well what I can turn myself into with the polymorhph spell (thanks for the variant from draconomicon, hadn't remembered it).
On a side note, the last 3 levels i took of wizard were more like filler. I'm sure there are other PrC's that I could take that might be better (such as Warshaper perhaps... some of those morphic abilities could prove useful). If anyone can give me some ideas, I'd be quite grateful.

Again, thanks.
stamhaven
08-07-05, 11:52 AM The problem with warshaper is that it doesn't add to you spells per day or caster level at all. The goodies it grants are sure nice, but with MT the fast healing isn't as much use to you as to other warshapers and any non caster level means fewer polymorphs per day. You could consider 3 levels of spellsword for a bit more bab and only dropping one caster level, it would nab you some armor proficiencies and even arcane spellfailure reduction along with better saves and HD. Arcane strike may be usefull since as a polymorpher you'll be in melee a lot and in some instances not able to easily cast spells but able to use slots for extra attacka nd damage bonus to your full attack will be nice. If you write a list of the monsters you've met in game (don't count anything on the summon monster or nature's ally lists as at your level you can assume familiarity with those) I can make some recomendations based on those. Don't bother to list outsiders, elementals, constructs or undead as you can't become them, nor any with greater than 15 hit dice.
Shyune
08-07-05, 12:02 PM I understand losing the ability to cast polymorph (or polymorph other object, which according to a post I was just reading could prove quite useful indeed) however, the warshaper + my minor shapeshift ability from the changeling race mesh quite well. My normal stats may not be the best, I know, but it could be useful. Also, unlimited alter self + warshaper is also pretty good.
The thing is, this isn't a character I'm currently playing, it's one i would love to build. As such, If you could, a list of suitable monsters for certain levels (or a link to such a post) would be awesome. Since i can trade out favored shapes I could have some variety as I level.
I'll have to read the polymorhp other object and do some research on that to see if its worth it over the warshaper abilities, but I really wouldn't lose many castings of the spell and would gain some nice abilities for those 3 levels.

Thanks again for all your help
stamhaven
08-07-05, 12:37 PM Your DM's milage may vary but I'd never let morphic qualities apply with minor change from the changeling race, the form change is too minor. Alter self is a much stronger change and I don't consider that enough for morphic qualities either. That said I'd not recomend warshaper to a polymorph caster even if they got morphic qualities all the time. Now if you were willing to stick it out till multimorph it might be worth it but you're already 4 caster levels behind from transmog so that would be a heack of a tough pill to swallow in terms of spell power.
stamhaven
08-07-05, 12:59 PM Some MM forms that are apealing (keep in mind your stat mixing especially with things like mind flayer attach/extract):

Dire Bear Large with S31 D 13 C19
Juvinile Blue dragon Large S19 D10 C17 NA +14immune to electricity fly 150 burrow 20
Young Gold dragon Large S25 D10 C17 NA +13 fire subtype, waterbreathing, fly 200 swim 60 land 60
Dragon Turtle Huge S27 D10 C21 NA +17 immune fire swim and capsze
Fire Giant Large S31 D9 C21 NA +8 fire subtype rock throwing
12 headed hydra Huge S23 D12 C20 NA +13 pounce/uber AoO and 12 attacks
Mind flayer Medium S12 D14 C12 NA +3 extract, multiple attacks, and SR 25 (45 if applied to your level which is a DM call)
Black Pudding blindsight, nasty acid ooze traits
G-Cube transparent acid and paralysis Con 26
Roper S19 D13 C17 uber reach tentacles with nasty Str Drain
Rust Monster (remember DC gets modified by your HD not typical monster HD) and watch the high levle fighters cringe.
Tendrilicus S28 D9 C22 plant traits NA +9 regen 10
Will-o'-Wisp S1 Dex29! C10, immune to Magic, Natural Invisibility are all near impossible to beat for funky specials when combined with other forms Str/Con and natural attacks.

Feats should compliment your favored forms more than anything else (if you like reach forms, the combat reflexes can be great as can improved trip or grapple trees if you favor big str bruisers). Tensor's transformation can be great with your lousy bab after transforming. Power attack can be nice too with your favored form attack bonuses added to great physicals you'll still have decent changes to hit often.
Shyune
08-07-05, 03:27 PM I really can't thank you enough for the help you've given so far. That said, I have come to accept that losing those caster levels would hurt me quite a bit and have decided to go down the full route of wizard and transmogrifier.

You mentioned something about transmog? that confused me a bit, if you could elaborate, please. As I type this im thinking about the feats and skills and what not along and have my friends pouring through the monster manuals and supplemental books we can use for useful creatures of all hd's. Quick question about my caster level, is it 16? 10? 20? (I know my effective wizard level for getting spells is 16, but is that also my caster level? *shrug*).

Again, can't thank you enough :D
Shyune
08-07-05, 04:16 PM I was just reading the forums and came across This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465653) . It truly amazed me that everythin I wanted was right here, balanced and nicely packaged. I quickly checked with my DM and he approved it :D . So I guess my search is over, thanks a lot and perhaps we'll meet again (though you probably wont recognize me, hehe).
Kill_Joy
08-25-05, 01:36 AM I am delighted that you chose my class as a character concept. I was wondering if you could provide us with feedback when you have tested it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shyune 08-06-05, 09:21 PM	I’ve been reading the boards for some time now, but this is my first post. I’ve come across many a “build” and have noticed how everyone gives tips and what not, so I was wondering if you could now put your collective genius to help me out. I want to make a shapeshifter, preferably Wizard/Master Transmogrifist. Because of personal preferences I’m going to be a changeling and take the racial substitution levels (except the 10th) as I reach them. So far, what I have is as follows: Zas Changeling Wizard (10) / Manster Transmogrifist (10) Abilities (32 Point Buy) Strength: 8 Dexterity: 12 Constitution: 14 Intelligence: 16 Wisdom: 14 Charisma: 14 Hp: 20d4 + 40 (80 average) Ac: 11 (not including items and what not, which I’m not at liberty to say what I’ll get…) Touch: 11 Flat-footed: 10 BaB: +10/+5 Attack: (Quarterstaff) +9/+4 Saves Fort: +8 Ref: +7 Will: +14 Skills 125 skill points (4 + int from racial substitution levels at 1st and 5th) Undecided on how to spend them. Feats 2 Wizard bonus feats (scribe scroll replaced with a bonus feat as house rule variant) 7 Normal feats. Undecided on how to spend them. Spells per day (Specialized in Transmutation) (Caster Level 20th? I’m not sure.) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 5 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 (With specialization and intelligence bonus) Morphic familiar with the following powers: Natural Armor + 5 Intelligence: 10 Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, Deliver touch spells, Speak with master, Speak with animals of its kind. Special Abilities: Extended Change Favored Shape (7) No clue what they should be… Manifest Senses Battle Mastery +6 Effortless Change Shapechanger sub-type and unlimited alter self duration. Reflexive Change Manifest Qualities Infinite Variety That’s the majority of the class however I still need a lot of help. As you can see I haven’t decided on my skills or feats yet and have no idea what the favored shapes should be (since I’m not sure what monsters are truly powerful for their level). On a side note, I don’t really know how the polymorph works, other than what’s written on the spell itself. If anyone could provide links or clarify it, please help. Thanks in advance for any help offered.
stamhaven 08-06-05, 11:22 PM	First off shape change magic is one of the most often houseruled subsets of rules (with good reason). You should set down with your DM and figure out what parameters you've got to work with for forms known (which source books, do you need to write a history/reason to have met them etc.) Also you'll be just shy of shapechange (the godfather of all shapechanging magic with caster level 16, you may consider a +1 LA outsider race to open up their forms with polymorph (many potent forms become availible to transmogs with that race). Having an elemental or outsider race opens new forms to polymorph but not as favored forms since those have to be different type from your own. Favored shapes are mostly useful for their combat and utility effectiveness, so picking forms that will be useful in those situations is your best bet. Their mix and match abilities let you pick very one sided critters (tentacle monster natural attacks with massive bruiser/giant for stats). Anything with high CR/HD ratios will likely be great except those with major SU abilities which you won't get access too. Draconomicon has a great polymorph spell which works like regular but adds boosts to physical stats of the base creature. Feats: practiced spellcaster is practically a must and transmutation specialist is worth considering to get the extra spells per day.
Shyune 08-07-05, 10:18 AM	I'll keep what you said in mind. My DM is going by familiarity rules of me having encountered the creature or done extensive research on it (that is to say, at least 1 day/HD, expending money each day and what not). However, i still dont know very well what I can turn myself into with the polymorhph spell (thanks for the variant from draconomicon, hadn't remembered it). On a side note, the last 3 levels i took of wizard were more like filler. I'm sure there are other PrC's that I could take that might be better (such as Warshaper perhaps... some of those morphic abilities could prove useful). If anyone can give me some ideas, I'd be quite grateful. Again, thanks.
stamhaven 08-07-05, 11:52 AM	The problem with warshaper is that it doesn't add to you spells per day or caster level at all. The goodies it grants are sure nice, but with MT the fast healing isn't as much use to you as to other warshapers and any non caster level means fewer polymorphs per day. You could consider 3 levels of spellsword for a bit more bab and only dropping one caster level, it would nab you some armor proficiencies and even arcane spellfailure reduction along with better saves and HD. Arcane strike may be usefull since as a polymorpher you'll be in melee a lot and in some instances not able to easily cast spells but able to use slots for extra attacka nd damage bonus to your full attack will be nice. If you write a list of the monsters you've met in game (don't count anything on the summon monster or nature's ally lists as at your level you can assume familiarity with those) I can make some recomendations based on those. Don't bother to list outsiders, elementals, constructs or undead as you can't become them, nor any with greater than 15 hit dice.
Shyune 08-07-05, 12:02 PM	I understand losing the ability to cast polymorph (or polymorph other object, which according to a post I was just reading could prove quite useful indeed) however, the warshaper + my minor shapeshift ability from the changeling race mesh quite well. My normal stats may not be the best, I know, but it could be useful. Also, unlimited alter self + warshaper is also pretty good. The thing is, this isn't a character I'm currently playing, it's one i would love to build. As such, If you could, a list of suitable monsters for certain levels (or a link to such a post) would be awesome. Since i can trade out favored shapes I could have some variety as I level. I'll have to read the polymorhp other object and do some research on that to see if its worth it over the warshaper abilities, but I really wouldn't lose many castings of the spell and would gain some nice abilities for those 3 levels. Thanks again for all your help
stamhaven 08-07-05, 12:37 PM	Your DM's milage may vary but I'd never let morphic qualities apply with minor change from the changeling race, the form change is too minor. Alter self is a much stronger change and I don't consider that enough for morphic qualities either. That said I'd not recomend warshaper to a polymorph caster even if they got morphic qualities all the time. Now if you were willing to stick it out till multimorph it might be worth it but you're already 4 caster levels behind from transmog so that would be a heack of a tough pill to swallow in terms of spell power.
stamhaven 08-07-05, 12:59 PM	Some MM forms that are apealing (keep in mind your stat mixing especially with things like mind flayer attach/extract): Dire Bear Large with S31 D 13 C19 Juvinile Blue dragon Large S19 D10 C17 NA +14immune to electricity fly 150 burrow 20 Young Gold dragon Large S25 D10 C17 NA +13 fire subtype, waterbreathing, fly 200 swim 60 land 60 Dragon Turtle Huge S27 D10 C21 NA +17 immune fire swim and capsze Fire Giant Large S31 D9 C21 NA +8 fire subtype rock throwing 12 headed hydra Huge S23 D12 C20 NA +13 pounce/uber AoO and 12 attacks Mind flayer Medium S12 D14 C12 NA +3 extract, multiple attacks, and SR 25 (45 if applied to your level which is a DM call) Black Pudding blindsight, nasty acid ooze traits G-Cube transparent acid and paralysis Con 26 Roper S19 D13 C17 uber reach tentacles with nasty Str Drain Rust Monster (remember DC gets modified by your HD not typical monster HD) and watch the high levle fighters cringe. Tendrilicus S28 D9 C22 plant traits NA +9 regen 10 Will-o'-Wisp S1 Dex29! C10, immune to Magic, Natural Invisibility are all near impossible to beat for funky specials when combined with other forms Str/Con and natural attacks. Feats should compliment your favored forms more than anything else (if you like reach forms, the combat reflexes can be great as can improved trip or grapple trees if you favor big str bruisers). Tensor's transformation can be great with your lousy bab after transforming. Power attack can be nice too with your favored form attack bonuses added to great physicals you'll still have decent changes to hit often.
Shyune 08-07-05, 03:27 PM	I really can't thank you enough for the help you've given so far. That said, I have come to accept that losing those caster levels would hurt me quite a bit and have decided to go down the full route of wizard and transmogrifier. You mentioned something about transmog? that confused me a bit, if you could elaborate, please. As I type this im thinking about the feats and skills and what not along and have my friends pouring through the monster manuals and supplemental books we can use for useful creatures of all hd's. Quick question about my caster level, is it 16? 10? 20? (I know my effective wizard level for getting spells is 16, but is that also my caster level? shrug). Again, can't thank you enough :D
Shyune 08-07-05, 04:16 PM	I was just reading the forums and came across This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465653) . It truly amazed me that everythin I wanted was right here, balanced and nicely packaged. I quickly checked with my DM and he approved it :D . So I guess my search is over, thanks a lot and perhaps we'll meet again (though you probably wont recognize me, hehe).
Kill_Joy 08-25-05, 01:36 AM	I am delighted that you chose my class as a character concept. I was wondering if you could provide us with feedback when you have tested it.