3.5 Sorcerer Nerf? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Sorcerer Nerf? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Felonius
12-16-04, 06:50 AM I posted this question on the ENWorld boards as well. I got some answers and vehement arguments against the possibility of the existence of this nerf, but I thought I'll post this over here as well.

We cannot find where in 3.5 PHB or SRD it says, that a sorcerer (or spontaneus casters in general) can use a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell.

What I *can* find are the following from 3.5 SRD:

Under Casting Spells > Choosing A Spell
"If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher."

The above might allow it with a liberal interpretation, but....

"If you’re a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven’t reached your limit."

And more under Classes > Sorcerer
"Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level."

Under Preparing Wizard/Divine Spells the SRD mentions the ability use higher level slots for lower level spells, but only in the context of preparing and filling spell slots.

Compare to 3.0 SRD under Sorcerer class description:
"A sorcerer may use a higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell if he so chooses. The spell is still treated as its actual level, not the level of the slot used to cast it."

In 3.5 the above is missing.

Was this ability really removed in 3.5?

If it *was* removed, why do you think it was done? What was the abuse?

- F
detectevil
12-16-04, 07:26 AM That is probably a mistake. A 3.0 to 3.5 conversion guide was released right after 3.5 came out, with the most important changes in it, and it mentioned nothing about sorcerers no longer being able to use higher spell slots in order to cast lower level spells. That is pretty important information, it would not have been left out if it was true.
Nyferto
12-16-04, 08:21 AM Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

It says all, so they can do it even if it doesn't specifically refer to them.
Felonius
12-16-04, 08:32 AM It says all, so they can do it even if it doesn't specifically refer to them.

The part you quoted is under the heading *Preparing* Wizard Spells and talks about filling slots with spells, i.e. preparing... :(

- F
Nyferto
12-16-04, 08:41 AM And the bit I quoted refers to all spellcasters, because they all have the option, be it Ranger or Assassin or whatever.

The same line is also under Divine casters - it applies to all spellcasters.
Felonius
12-16-04, 09:21 AM And the bit I quoted refers to all spellcasters, because they all have the option, be it Ranger or Assassin or whatever.
Why is it under "Preparing Wizard Spells" then and talks about "filling" spell slots with spells?

The same line is also under Divine casters - it applies to all spellcasters.
This is under "Preparing Divine Spells" and also talks about "filling" spell slots with spells.

Sorcerers and Bards get their own paragraph on the same heading level, but the ability is not mentioned there. Instead it is forbidden in two separate places (see my original post above).

- F
Nyferto
12-16-04, 09:47 AM It doesn't matter where it is, its reffering to all spellcasters and the fact that they all have the option to use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell.

Sorcs cast the exact spells, they just don't prepare and then finish them like most others, they still have spell slots they just use them differently. You can still use a higher level spell slot because it says all spellcasters and it applies to Arcane spells.

If you really wanted to you could ask Customer Services and they'll tell you if its an error and what it's in. I can't check them, but it probably is an error in corrected in the errata.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Felonius 12-16-04, 06:50 AM	I posted this question on the ENWorld boards as well. I got some answers and vehement arguments against the possibility of the existence of this nerf, but I thought I'll post this over here as well. We cannot find where in 3.5 PHB or SRD it says, that a sorcerer (or spontaneus casters in general) can use a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell. What I can find are the following from 3.5 SRD: Under Casting Spells > Choosing A Spell "If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher." The above might allow it with a liberal interpretation, but.... "If you’re a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven’t reached your limit." And more under Classes > Sorcerer "Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level." Under Preparing Wizard/Divine Spells the SRD mentions the ability use higher level slots for lower level spells, but only in the context of preparing and filling spell slots. Compare to 3.0 SRD under Sorcerer class description: "A sorcerer may use a higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell if he so chooses. The spell is still treated as its actual level, not the level of the slot used to cast it." In 3.5 the above is missing. Was this ability really removed in 3.5? If it was removed, why do you think it was done? What was the abuse? - F
detectevil 12-16-04, 07:26 AM	That is probably a mistake. A 3.0 to 3.5 conversion guide was released right after 3.5 came out, with the most important changes in it, and it mentioned nothing about sorcerers no longer being able to use higher spell slots in order to cast lower level spells. That is pretty important information, it would not have been left out if it was true.
Nyferto 12-16-04, 08:21 AM	Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. It says all, so they can do it even if it doesn't specifically refer to them.
Felonius 12-16-04, 08:32 AM	It says all, so they can do it even if it doesn't specifically refer to them. The part you quoted is under the heading Preparing Wizard Spells and talks about filling slots with spells, i.e. preparing... :( - F
Nyferto 12-16-04, 08:41 AM	And the bit I quoted refers to all spellcasters, because they all have the option, be it Ranger or Assassin or whatever. The same line is also under Divine casters - it applies to all spellcasters.
Felonius 12-16-04, 09:21 AM	And the bit I quoted refers to all spellcasters, because they all have the option, be it Ranger or Assassin or whatever. Why is it under "Preparing Wizard Spells" then and talks about "filling" spell slots with spells? The same line is also under Divine casters - it applies to all spellcasters. This is under "Preparing Divine Spells" and also talks about "filling" spell slots with spells. Sorcerers and Bards get their own paragraph on the same heading level, but the ability is not mentioned there. Instead it is forbidden in two separate places (see my original post above). - F
Nyferto 12-16-04, 09:47 AM	It doesn't matter where it is, its reffering to all spellcasters and the fact that they all have the option to use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell. Sorcs cast the exact spells, they just don't prepare and then finish them like most others, they still have spell slots they just use them differently. You can still use a higher level spell slot because it says all spellcasters and it applies to Arcane spells. If you really wanted to you could ask Customer Services and they'll tell you if its an error and what it's in. I can't check them, but it probably is an error in corrected in the errata.