Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SmiloDan 04-19-04, 12:45 PM	Is there a 3.5 Tempest or Tempest-like equivalent? I have a dwarf ranger 3/fighter 2 that may want to go down the Tempest path, but it's always struck me as odd that the Tempest, which seems to be a class that specializes in getting the most number attack per round, has prerequisites that only allow a single attack a round (Spring Attack). Does this make more sense for a 3.5 Tempest Prerequisites? Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus or Weapon Finesse. BAB: +9. Maybe add Two Weapon Defense?
atnoon 04-19-04, 04:58 PM	I would say no to the Improved Two Weapon Fighting since the Tempest gets it at 1st level. Tempest is such a weak prc that is a joke among min/maxers. I have a friend that thinks that the Tempest can become a good prc if the requirements were lowered so that you could grab it at 6th level. We haven't playtested yet but it seens a good idea.
SmiloDan 04-20-04, 11:33 AM	Yeah, I've heard some people say it is good, and others say it is bad. Right now I have a dwarf ranger 3/fighter 2. I'll probably go ranger 3/fighter 4 and maybe take Foe Hunter (giant) for a couple levels. The Tempest PrC really makes sense for my character, since he wields a pair of dwarven waraxes. His name is Duncan Axestorm. He is taking big-time penalties to hit, but when he does hit, SHAZAM!
atnoon 04-20-04, 05:51 PM	Some people may say it is good but anyone who says that in the Character Optimization Board will suffer :D It is underpower. First because of the requirements several feats and BAB +9 makes impossible to get the prc before 10th level. Improved TWF can be taken at level 6 as a feat (or as 6th level twf style ranger). But Improved TWF is a 1st level Tempest ability, which means minimun level 10 to get your second attack. Greater TWF can be taken at level 11 as a feat (or as 11th level twf style ranger). But (again) the Tempest gets it as a 5th level ability, which means minimun level 14 to get your secong attack. So you are 4 levels late to grab a 2nd off hand attack and 3 levels late to get your 3rd. Not to mention that the Twf feats acquired by the Tempest only works when wearing light armor and doesn't work on a double weapon. The Tempest get Supreme TWF at 10th level, but when you reach that you are only a two level behind Epic level and in epic anyone can get this as a epic feat. Absolute Ambidexterity is nice but taking this prc as far as 8th level is tough. Off-hand parry was so lame that WotC dropped the feat in the 3.5 version and created the Two Weapon Defense feats. To me thats a weak class. Your are suposed to be the supreme TW Fighter but get your attacks at slower rate than a common ranger who didn't even had to spend feats to acquire a prc or the twf abilities. Suggestion. Lowering the requirements so that you could grab it at 6th level would give the Tempest the off-hand attacks at the same rate as a ranger, and the Absulote Ambidexterity and Supreme TWF would not be so close to epic levels where what suposed to be unique abilities are no more than plain feats. Since Off-hand party doesn't exist anymore I would switch it for Two-Weapon Defense feats. And since this class is based on a ranger, I would nerf the hit die to d8, increase the reflex save and skill points.
spike81101 04-20-04, 11:23 PM	BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +1 +2 +2 +0 Two Weapon Defense 2. +2 +3 +3 +0 Greater 2 Weapon Fighting 3. +3 +3 +3 +1 4. +4 +4 +4 +1 Improved Two Weapon Defense (+4 AC) 5. +5 +4 +4 +1 6. +6 +5 +5 +2 Reduced Two Weapon Penalties 7. +7 +5 +5 +2 8. +8 +6 +6 +2 Perfect 2 Weapon Fighting 9. +9 +6 +6 +3 Greater Two Weapon Defense (+6 AC) 10.+10 +7 +7 +3 Superior 2 Weapon Fighting Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): An Tempest fights with a Weapon in each hand. Because each of its great ability to use two swords, the tempest does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons. Prereq's BaB+9 2 Weapon Fighting Improved 2 weapon Fighting Weapon Focus Dodge Compare to the Frenzy'd Beserker or Samerai (which both get double damage from str when 2 handed instead of 1.5).
atnoon 04-21-04, 12:46 AM	Look much better. Still not a very good high level prc but better. Since Two-Wepon Defense gives a +1 bonus to Ac shouldn't the Improved and Greater one give just +2 and +3? Originally posted by spike81101 Compare to the Frenzy'd Beserker or Samerai (which both get double damage from str when 2 handed instead of 1.5). Frenzied Berserker don't gain 2x str wielding a 2 handed weapon.
SmiloDan 04-22-04, 12:10 PM	Here's what I propose for a cool Tempest 3.5 Tempest 3.5 Requirements: Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus. BAB: +6. Class Features: BAB: +1 Good Saves: Fortitude. Hit Dice: 1d10. Class Skills: Climb (Str)*, Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex)*, Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str)*, Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex)*. Skill Points Per Level: 2 + Int modifier. Level Ability 1. Two Weapon Defense (+1) 2. Supreme Cleave 3. Greater Ambidexterity 4. Improved Two Weapon Defense (+2) 5. Greater Two Weapon Fighting 6. Opportunist 7. Double Strike 8. Greater Two Weapon Defense (+3) 9. Absolute Ambidexterity 10. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Defense (Ex). This is a bonus feat. Supreme Cleave (Ex). The Tempest can make a single 5 foot step after dropping a foe and prior to using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat to take an extra attack. Greater Ambidexterity (Ex). The penalty for fighting with two weapons is reduced by 2. Thus, a Tempest fighting with a light offhand weapon takes no penalties, and a Tempest fighting with a one-handed weapon takes a penalty on -2 on his attack rolls instead of the normal -4 penalty. Improved Two Weapon Defense (Ex). The Tempest's bonus to AC from the Two Weapon Defense feat increases to +2. Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Ex). This is a bonus feat. Opportunist (Ex). This is the same as the Rogue Special Ability. Double Strike (Ex). The Tempest can attack with both her primary weapon and her offhand weapon as a standard action. Each weapon only gets a single attack. Furthermore, the Tempest adds her Strength modififer to her off hand weapon rolls, not half her Strength modifier. Greater Two Weapon Defense (Ex). The Tempest's bonus to AC from the Two Weapon Defense feat increases to +3. Absolute Ambidexterity (Ex). The penalty for fighting with two weapons is reduced by another 2. Thus, a Tempest fighting with a one-handed weapon in his off hand takes no penalty. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (Ex). The Tempest gets a 4th attack with her offhand weapon, however with a -15 penalty.
atnoon 04-22-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by SmiloDan Here's what I propose for a cool Tempest 3.5 The word unbalacing or overpower might fit your Tempest better. Requirements: Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus. BAB: +6. Since the Tempest is suposed to be the supreme two-weapon fighter, I don't see why he sould have Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, or Combat Reflexes as requiments. Class Features: BAB: +1 Good Saves: Fortitude. Hit Dice: 1d10. Class Skills: Climb (Str)*, Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex)*, Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str)*, Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex)*. Skill Points Per Level: 2 + Int modifier. I still think the Tempest would be better if he becames more ranger like: d8 hit die, reflex and fortitude high, more skills. But thats just an opnion. Supreme Cleave (Ex). The Tempest can make a single 5 foot step after dropping a foe and prior to using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat to take an extra attack. Why? I can see a Frenzied Berserker using Supreme Cleave, I can accept a Master Samurai. But why a Tempest? Greater Ambidexterity (Ex). The penalty for fighting with two weapons is reduced by 2. Thus, a Tempest fighting with a light offhand weapon takes no penalties, and a Tempest fighting with a one-handed weapon takes a penalty on -2 on his attack rolls instead of the normal -4 penalty. Too early to get an ability like this. I would lower the penalties in just 1 instead. Opportunist (Ex). This is the same as the Rogue Special Ability. Again, why? This isn't suposed to be a Tempest ability. Double Strike (Ex). The Tempest can attack with both her primary weapon and her offhand weapon as a standard action. Each weapon only gets a single attack. Furthermore, the Tempest adds her Strength modififer to her off hand weapon rolls, not half her Strength modifier. It was a nice idea but add normal str with the off hand is too much. Absolute Ambidexterity (Ex). The penalty for fighting with two weapons is reduced by another 2. Thus, a Tempest fighting with a one-handed weapon in his off hand takes no penalty. Too much also. Even epic character have penalties while not TWF with a light weapon. Take back the old absolute ambidexterity, wich only lowers the penalties by 2.
Lord Schpungus 04-22-04, 04:35 PM	Double Strike is awesome. I would take the class just for that. I really don't understand why Opportunist or Supreme Cleave is in this class at all, and I would remove PA, Cleave and Great Cleave as prereqs. Lower the Ambidexterity to remove only 1 at 3rd and 2 at 9th, take out the Cleave tree entirely, and give a Superior TWD (+4) instead and this class is perfect. I really felt the tempest didn't need to be brought to 3.5 before this, but now I really like it. EDIT: And removing the Str penalties to offhand damage makes this class even more worthwhile. Good job!
SmiloDan 04-22-04, 04:56 PM	Thanks for the feedback! It is a bit powerful. The reason I used Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave for the Tempest is because the Tempest is a class that seems to try to get the most number of attacks per round possible. I never understood why Tempests required the Spring Attack tree since they're pretty useless when you want to get more than one attack per round. I would understand if they eventually got Whirlwind Attack or something, but they don't....or didn't....or whatever. I think the Tempest is the ultimate two-weapon fighter. I don't see them as skill-junkies. Therefore, the d10 HD, the Fort save, and only 2 skill points per level. Supreme Cleave helps the Tempest get to use those extra Cleave and Great Cleave attacks. And my interpretation of the Tempest niche is to maximize the number of attacks per round you get. Again, Opportunist is used to get more attacks per round. Double Strike is there so Tempests can charge and not lose the ability of 3 or 6 feats.... Kind of cheese. I think the Monk's flurry ability is kind of confirmation that some "offhand" attacks can get the full Str modifier. (I know Flurry and 2 weapon fighting stack in 3.5, ergo the air quotes.) Gotta go, more explanations later....but you might be right about reducing the amount of the penalty reductions.
Ranger REG 04-22-04, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by SmiloDan Is there a 3.5 Tempest or Tempest-like equivalent? Heheheh. See Complete Warrior Samurai core class.
atnoon 04-22-04, 10:48 PM	Originally posted by SmiloDan It is a bit powerful. Kind of too much powerfull. Oportunist, Supreme Cleave, Absolute Ambidexterity, Double Strike. Not to mention 1d10 hit die. {sarcasm mode on} I have an idea, why not give a 1d20 hit die instead and and some epic feats. He is already getting roguish exclusive special abilities and things that not even epic characters can acomplish so why not? {sarcasm mode off} The reason I used Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave for the Tempest is because the Tempest is a class that seems to try to get the most number of attacks per round possible. I never understood why Tempests required the Spring Attack tree since they're pretty useless when you want to get more than one attack per round. I would understand if they eventually got Whirlwind Attack or something, but they don't....or didn't....or whatever. Tempest isn't a prc to get the most number of attacks but a prc focused on Two-Weapon Fighting. Following your logic a ranger would also gain all that abilities because he is a class to get the most number of attacks in a round (both when using TWF and Archery). I think the Tempest is the ultimate two-weapon fighter. I don't see them as skill-junkies. Therefore, the d10 HD, the Fort save, and only 2 skill points per level. Tempest is in the Masters of the Wild. This qualify him to by either a Druid, Barbarian or Ranger prc. Since it isn't Druid or Barbarian, its clearly a ranger prc. Rangers get d8 hit and more skill points so this prc should reflect the new ranger. Again, Opportunist is used to get more attacks per round. Haste does also. And Frenzy. And Flurry of Blows. Double Strike is there so Tempests can charge and not lose the ability of 3 or 6 feats.... Kind of cheese. Not really a problem with this. A nice idea. I think the Monk's flurry ability is kind of confirmation that some "offhand" attacks can get the full Str modifier. (I know Flurry and 2 weapon fighting stack in 3.5, ergo the air quotes.) A huge problem with this. You are comparing a monk, whoes primary stats isn't even close to str, with fighters and rangers? Its major overpower. Gotta go, more explanations later....but you might be right about reducing the amount of the penalty reductions. Not only that but you should look again at the prc and maybe think again about lowering some other things.
SmiloDan 04-23-04, 09:21 AM	OK, so I guess the version I made up is uber-powerful. Any other ideas to update it to 3.5? I really don't think the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack tree is appropriate for the Tempest, because you cannot use two weapon fighting when spring attacking. Also, I don't like how the Tempest has some empty levels. Almost all Prestige Classes give you some kind of ability every level. Any ideas that aren't TOO powerful? I guess we have to scrap Opportunist, Supreme Cleave (which I don't think is TOO powerful, but that's just me...), and Absolute Ambidexterity. How about this? Level Ability 1. Two Weapon Defense (+1) 2. 3. Combat Technique 1 4. Improved Two Weapon Defense (+2) 5. Greater Two Weapon Fighting (3rd off hand attack at -10) 6. Combat Technique 2 7. Greater Two Weapon Defense (+3) 8. 9. Combat Technique 3 10. Perfect Two Weapon Defense (+4), Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (4th off hand attack at -15) Combat Techniques 1, 2, and 3. These can be bonus Tactical feats or whatever they now have in the Complete Warrior. You know, the ones with Weapon Focus Axe and Weapon Focus Hammer that gives you a 2nd attack if you hit with both (Hammer and Anvil or whatever) This would be easier if I actually HAD the Complete Warrior. OK, now this PrC is like a bonus feat every level, pretty much. Again, probably WAY too powerful. Maybe drop the 2 Weapon Defense stuff? HELP!
spike81101 04-23-04, 03:25 PM	For the empty levels the Double Strike sort of thing that was mentioned before sounded good. It is definitely a ranger/dex fighter type of class, so things like evasion wouldn't be out of the question either. There should a guide to the 2 weapon fighter book, even a netbook or dragonmagazine would be great. There are many different styles of the 2 weapon fighter, double weapons, dagger and longsword, 2 weapons of the same size, etc. I'll probably take the time later to look at some exising PrC's and do something caparable for the 2 weapon fighter. 2 Weapon fighting should do more damage than 2 handed weapon fighting, you've sunk 4 feats into it, it shouldn't give you less damage. I'll definitely post something more here soon.
SmiloDan 04-23-04, 04:07 PM	The Complete Warrior has some "Fighting Styles" that are almost exclusively Two-Weapon fighting. I don't own it, but I've looked through it. Usually they require Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus is A, and Weapon Focus in B, and then they give you an extra attack if you hit with both. I forgot about the double strike thingamajig. I think it totally makes sense for a 2 weapon fighter to develop equal strength in both arms, and having that reflected in causing full damage in his off hand weapon. Maybe at level 2? Also, being able to make a on-hand and an off-hand weapon as a standard action would be pretty cool too. Maybe at level 8?
aelryinth 04-23-04, 04:16 PM	Actually the reason that TSR took out the Off Hand Parry feat was because it was much too strong! If you read the original feat you will specifically note that you CAN use a buckler while using this feat. So you could get the full bonus of a buckler +5 (+6 Shield AC) AND the +2 for the Parry....later +6. Throw in a defending weapon +5 on the off hand, and without any difficulty you now have +17 AC hanging on one arm...of which +11 is workable as Touch AC. That's why they got rid of it...even at +2, it was a sweet, sweet feat. At +6, with a Dex fighter...the AC you could get was unreal. And actually it's what made the tempest great. If they couldn't get a full attack action, their AC could be thru the roof. If they could, they attacked with fewer penalties then any other TWF. ANd I thought you had to have the first two attacks to get into the class, and the class gave you the third and fourth and then removed the -2 penalty. Could be mistaken. ==Aelryinth
atnoon 04-24-04, 05:29 AM	Originally posted by aelryinth Actually the reason that TSR took out the Off Hand Parry feat was because it was much too strong! I guess you meant WotC. TSR is out for a long time. Seens that I have confused Off-Hand Parry with another TWF feat that only granted a +2 bonus against one oponent you choose (like Dodge). Lets see how strong is Off Hand Parry. If you read the original feat you will specifically note that you CAN use a buckler while using this feat. So you could get the full bonus of a buckler +5 (+6 Shield AC) AND the +2 for the Parry....later +6. Yes you could use it with a buckler but in other to get the +2 on Ac you needed to sacrifice ALL your off hand attacks. This means that you will use only your primary attacks at a -2 penalty (because of the TWF) and get a +2 on Ac. And only works when you are using a bladed or hafted light weapon with this feat. (So no bonus wielding two 1 handed weapons or a bludgeon weapon). And if you want Ac you could get the old 3.0 Shield Expert (now Improved Shield Bash) feat and use a Large Shield as a off hand weapon to get a better Ac. While using the buckler on the off-hand would apply an addition -1 penalty to attack rolls. So Off-Hand parry is kind of a low budget Expertise Shield Expert. Maybe I had underestimated Off-Hand Parry too much, but still, Shield Expert and Expertise are better. Throw in a defending weapon +5 on the off hand, and without any difficulty you now have +17 AC hanging on one arm...of which +11 is workable as Touch AC. I don't remember how it was writen on the 3.0 but in 3.5 defending says: From the 3.5 Srd: Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. It may be that my interpretation isn't correct but what I think is that since you sacrificed your off-hands attacks you do not use your weapon, and since you are not using your weapon you can't transfer bonus to your Ac. If your DM allow you to just wield a weapon without using it and get the Ac bonus then it is good. I know that my Dm would never allow it, and if I was the DM I would not allow it either. That's why they got rid of it...even at +2, it was a sweet, sweet feat. At +6, with a Dex fighter...the AC you could get was unreal. Alright. +4 and the +6 is nice. And actually it's what made the tempest great. If they couldn't get a full attack action, their AC could be thru the roof. If they could, they attacked with fewer penalties then any other TWF. If you could not get a full attack action you could not sacrifice all your off-hand attacks and thus would not get the Ac bonus for the Off-Hand Parry. ANd I thought you had to have the first two attacks to get into the class, and the class gave you the third and fourth and then removed the -2 penalty. Could be mistaken. You would only get one off hand attack until the prc. This delayed your second off-hand attack in 4 levels, and your third in 3 levels. The fourth attack would come just two levels before epic were anyone could grab it as a feat. Pretty lame for a prc that suposed to be the ultimate TWF to learn things slower than a common fighter. The only real worth ability would be the Absolute Ambidexterity. And I like the Two Weapons Defense feats much more.