Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reiver 08-03-04, 01:06 AM	Only just noticed that it has a BAB+1 reqirement... So you can't finesse your freaking weapon until 3rd level?! This is painful. Too painful? It seems to give a bad, bad nerf to Rogues and Bards especially, seeing those two tend to be in desperate need of it; also makes quite a number of rapier-weilding characters look exceedingly silly at first level. (While I realise this is discussing a feat, I put it here because I'm more worried about it's effect on low-level classes.) Any ideas on how to save my poor 10STR rogues ass at 1st level? He can't take Expertise and bluff, he can't finesse his rapier, and he can't even use freaking weapon finesse yet... it's all a little painful for my liking. :( (I will admit, mind you, that I'm used to dealing with fighters... so the scarcity of feats is hurting to start with, and this just feels like the last straw.)
Nick Soapdish 08-03-04, 02:15 AM	Why can't he take Combat Expertise and Bluff? Does he not have a high (13+) Intelligence or Charisma? (Not that a high Charisma is required for bluff although it makes it a lot more worthwhile). With that low Strength, what scores do you have anyway? Or are you referring to the fact that Combat Expertise wouldn't pay immediate dividends - as in until 2nd or maybe even 3rd level when you take Improved Feint? As you might guess, I don't really have a huge problem with the BAB+1 requirement. I tend to go with Improved Initiative as a 1st level feat for rogues and throw an already drawn dagger in the surprise round, then draw and throw a second in the first round (since hopefully, I've won initiative, although it's not a sure thing on a d20). Dodge isn't bad either since rogues typically need all the help they can get with AC for when they're unlucky enough to get stuck in melee. However, the question came up on Andy Collins' boards and he didn't see a problem with waiving that requirement since as you noted, it is the key to the rogue's melee attack. Currently, I'm playing in a campaign with both a rogue and a bard and both of them plan to nab that as their 3rd level feat. The bard has a poor Strength (10) and tends to stick with her bow. The rogue has a pretty good (14) Strength and doesn't have too many qualms about wandering into melee, although he can get cranked pretty easily with the hit points that he has.
Bantam 08-03-04, 03:05 AM	Use a crossbow til level 3.
q'afuu 08-03-04, 03:25 AM	It's *1st* level. PCs are nobodies with little experience and few skills. There's really no need for them to be accomplished at anything yet, they should still need to learn for that. Going for two levels without Finesse really isn't that bad a nerf, even if it's the difference between a +4 to hit and a +0. Suck it up.
DM Zoc 08-03-04, 03:55 AM	It really depends on the DM. It always does. I've known DMs where you'd start a new campaign and be level 3 by the end of the day. I've known DMs where it takes dozens of sessions to level up. My advice, if combat is so important to you, is to take your first level in fighter (or Swashbuckler).
BlaineTog 08-03-04, 04:15 AM	Its a subtle hint to rogues that they shouldn't be on the front lines if they can help it.
Zelphi 08-03-04, 04:43 AM	Aye, what do you care? You aren't the teams fighters and you have no solid power ability either. When did you think Weapon Finesse didn't require a BAB of 1?
Ricros 08-03-04, 05:43 AM	Comprimise: Don't pick a feat up until level 2.
q'afuu 08-03-04, 05:49 AM	Originally posted by Ricros Comprimise: Don't pick a feat up until level 2. IOW, make a houserule against the express recommendation of the designers. ;) I would suggest not doing this.
Reiver 08-03-04, 09:02 AM	Why didn't I notice? Guess I've never used it in a 3.5 game before, and had kinda assumed it was just one of those "first level" general feats. Also, it didn't in 3.0, and I simply didn't notice the change until I re-read things the other day. Why not Combat Expertise? Well, you could, but you're pretty much wasting a feat, given that you can't actually use it at all until 2nd level... and it strikes me as a little silly for a character to have learned a feat that is unusable yet. As for why it's bugging me so much, our party is running extremely light - a Bard, Sorceror, lightly armoured Cleric, and a rogue that is to be replaced by my own (personal conflict between current rogue and the rest of the group). As you can see, staying out of melee combat is only acceptable for the sorceror, really, so it struck me as kinda poor to have what is essentially a "must have" feat made off-limits so. As for pace, they've had 3 sessions, are are approaching 2nd level by about next game. So we could be a little while before we get to third. ;)
q'afuu 08-03-04, 09:10 AM	Originally posted by Reiver Also, it didn't in 3.0... Wanna bet? :smirk:
Zelphi 08-03-04, 10:01 AM	Most certainly does have a +1 bab req in 3.0 Use a thrown/ranged weapon. Try quickdraw or improved initiative If you deny people of their dex bonus by wining initiative then they'll have less AC to overcome. You arent' the Fighter.. it shouldn't matter... Or maybe you should'nt have made such a chumpy Rogue. Giving any finesse fighter less than 13 str is bad.
Reiver 08-03-04, 06:48 PM	It did have a BAB in 3.0? In that case, I'll just shut up right now, and make the observation that my group would appear to have been playing it wrong all along. I've never played a Rogue before, heh. I've done one light fighter, but that had the BAB to do whatever I felt like anyway; so I tend to not notice the BAB +1 pre-reqs, and had assumed others had their rules straight. Guess not. *shrugs*
Egres 08-03-04, 07:17 PM	Originally posted by Reiver It did have a BAB in 3.0? In that case, I'll just shut up right now, and make the observation that my group would appear to have been playing it wrong all along. I've never played a Rogue before, heh. I've done one light fighter, but that had the BAB to do whatever I felt like anyway; so I tend to not notice the BAB +1 pre-reqs, and had assumed others had their rules straight. Guess not. *shrugs* Yes,it did.
Tony Vargas 08-04-04, 01:22 PM	Originally posted by Reiver As for why it's bugging me so much, our party is running extremely light - a Bard, Sorceror, lightly armoured Cleric, and a rogue. As you can see, staying out of melee combat is only acceptable for the sorceror, really. As for pace, they've had 3 sessions, are are approaching 2nd level by about next game. So we could be a little while before we get to third. ;) Assuming you're human or halfling (I don't suppose you're a dwarf), you could just take your next level as fighter. You can use the bonus feat to pick up weapon finesse, and you get a few more useful weapon proficiencies, too, not to mention, hopefully, some decent hps. You'll be 1 rank behind on all your Rogue skills, but that shouldn't cripple you.
Reiver 08-05-04, 01:25 AM	I'd be a level behind on my sneak attack too, mind. Not that it matters at 2nd, but it will matter at 3rd... *shrugs*
Nick Soapdish 08-05-04, 01:33 AM	Quick Draw also has a BAB+1 requirement.
Rurik "The Silent" 09-03-04, 11:19 PM	i play a rogue all the time..basiclly recently ive switched to the ranger/rogue though..just specilaize in bows and you dont even need the wepaon finess stuff, just hang back and rain arrows or hide then fire. Combined with some poison or your sneak attack tis still effective, espically against favored enimies. And the rogue can use the boost to base attack any way. but as for what you said, our group just house ruled that the classes can take weapon finess at first level. When we didnt basically they woudl die then we'd have to make new characters, becasue frankly my bard buddie doesnt liek to use a bow.
Cold Napalm 09-04-04, 01:13 AM	Basically, if you want your rogue to be a bit fightery...well you'll just have to take a level of fighter now won't you. So your a bit behind in sneak attack...big deal. If you think that's bad, wait till you start building gish builds where you lose SPELL LEVELS. That extra d6 or +4 to hit, what do you think will come up more with so few combatants in your party? Now as for rogues at level one...yeah your choices in feats kinda suck and expertise isn't useful till level 2 (which BTW is MUCH better then getting quicken spell at level 5 with no chance to actually use it for 2 level and even then it's useless for another 2 levels) but it means as soon as you reach level 2 you can use it and not wait to level 3 to get it. Also it means you can get improved feint/trip at level 3 which are very nice feats. It's not as bad as you think.
Zelphi 09-04-04, 06:46 AM	Stupid +1 bab req, I had to give a sorc an existance check because he was using a spiked chain at 1st... At one time I was trying to come up with a bab progression that started at 1 and stopped at 15 - which helps with some classes and the like... I think I got... tripple every 5... L, BAB 1, 1 2, 2 3, 3 4, 4 5, 5 6, 5 7, 5 8, 6 9, 7 10, 8 11, 9 12, 10 13, 10 14, 10 15, 11 16, 12 17, 13 18, 14 19, 15 20, 15 That starting on 0 can be a real kicker, and I think it hurts some multiclassing... For a house rule you might wanna shift it around though... Like a Cleric wouldn't get this BAB, but one with the WAR domain might...
q'afuu 09-04-04, 06:55 AM	That starting on 0 can be a real kicker, and I think it hurts some multiclassing... Sure it's a kicker for those classes that don't have 1/1 BAB and expecially for characters multiclassing between such classes, but that's the whole point. Low BAB isn't only in place so you'd get less iterative attacks and you'd get them later, it's also there so you can't qualify for certain feats and PrCs as fast as other characters. If you do have a problem with the multiclassed characters, I suggest you use fractional BAB and saves. But I certainly wouldn't go houseruling a higher starting BAB.
Zelphi 09-04-04, 08:41 AM	It hurts some more than others, and that bit where you can ultimately loose out pointlessly on BAB? Those aren't entirely good or right. Staggered BAB is fine, it's just the way it's set up that can be problimatic... say it aint so to the finesse monk.
kirsdarke 09-04-04, 01:18 PM	i have weapon finesse for my rogue and his stabby tools of stabbity death, i picked it up at level three. honestly, i wanted my rogue to be physical, so i gave him, a halfling, 18 on dex 17 on str 14 on con. now at 4th level he has 20 (18+2) dex, 16 (17-2,+1@4th) str, and 14 con. i know my way about a fight, and always have. its fun stuff. the only problem is with big people who like to grapple. :weep:
Warewolf 09-04-04, 01:34 PM	You guys just need to realize that you're not supposed to be bad-ass from the start. The whole point is to watch your character grow in skill and reputation. If you're making a dextrous rogue then stay out of melee and use ranged weapons. If you're worried about getting stuck in melee, take a 5-foot-step back and fire. If you need to have a more melee-based rogue to help support your group, then I'd suggest going with a human or elf (no strength penalty) and put your first or at least second best ability score in strength. The BAB restriction is there for a reason, as others have said. It's just one of many things that has to be considered when building and planning your character. And besides, your foes at first and second level aren't usually that difficult to hit anyway. So buck up and enjoy the game :D
Perun 09-04-04, 04:31 PM	FWIW, we removed the +1 BAB requirement from Weapon Finesse. It made a lot more sence to us.
Sensei Gith 09-04-04, 05:41 PM	It's *1st* level. PCs are nobodies with little experience and few skills. There's really no need for them to be accomplished at anything yet, they should still need to learn for that. Going for two levels without Finesse really isn't that bad a nerf, even if it's the difference between a +4 to hit and a +0. Suck it up. Explain how getting dexterity to attack makes them "accomplished" at combat in a way that strength to attack does not. And a -4 penalty to attack rolls certainly is "that bad." The poster who suggested running away and using a crossbow was right. It's an explicit "low-level rogues cannot fight in melee" clause. I'm not talking about tanking it up with the big guys-- fighter-types already have better BAB and combat-oriented feats and class features. A rogue who could fight at level one would not step on their toes. And not sucking at sneak attacking people in melee is not an "accomplishment" due only to advanced rogues.
Sensei Gith 09-04-04, 05:57 PM	Furthermore, it presents a quandary for rogues who do not want to use bows. Suppose your str 9, dex 16 character fights with his trademark dual short swords. At first and second level, fighting with those weapons is an extremely foolish thing to do from a mechanical perspective. Should he survive through those levels with his bow? Then what happens to your character concept? Why does he spontaneously switch to his favored style at third level? Or, on the other hand, does he follow his character concept at first level, for all intents and purposes suffering a -4 penalty to attack rolls? The rule should not be that low-level characters cannot do anything or significance. A first-level character should do what he intends to do, but less well than a higher-level character. A first-level barbarian can rage-- once per day. A first-level wizard can cast his illusions-- but only a few, and not the good ones. Why should the melee rogue be left in the dust, unable to viably follow his character concept? Weapon finesse would allow him to. Not well-- he has few hit points, minimal ranks in his skills, and not a lot of sneak attack-- but viably.
Cold Napalm 09-04-04, 08:33 PM	Umm how does a rogue have minimal skills?!? They have the best skill of any classes! Also that 1d6 sneak attack is nothing to joke at. I have no idea where you guys are getting this -4 to hit from?!? Also one other thing, dual wielding at level 1 means unless your human, you first feat is two weapon fighting not weapon finesse anyways. First level rogue can disarm trap, bluff past guards, disguise themselves, sneak attack an orc...I don't see how they are weak compared to any other class...if fact I'd say they are one of the stronger ones.
Sensei Gith 09-04-04, 09:58 PM	Umm how does a rogue have minimal skills?!? They have the best skill of any classes! Minimal combat skill. Also that 1d6 sneak attack is nothing to joke at. Nor is it enough to justify the lack of weapon finesse. I have no idea where you guys are getting this -4 to hit from?!? The difference in modifiers between stats of 9 and 16. Also one other thing, dual wielding at level 1 means unless your human, you first feat is two weapon fighting not weapon finesse anyways. Just a thought, but maybe that was an example. First level rogue can disarm trap, bluff past guards, disguise themselves, sneak attack an orc...I don't see how they are weak compared to any other class...if fact I'd say they are one of the stronger ones. That is qualitative, not quantitative. A fighter at first level can slay dragons (hey, look, these eggs are neat!), craft legendary weapons (wow, another 20!), and bring entire kingdoms to their knees (okay mister, put that toy crown away and go to bed this instant!). A wizard at first level has control over the fundamental forces of reality. A psion can change his surroundings at a mere thought. A ranger... and so on.
BronzeBeard 09-04-04, 10:18 PM	Okay, Reiver. Some tips. I am playing Rogue all the time, always me. You need rogue? It's me. Starting a new campaign, who's rogue? me. And that's for a reason :smirk: ... Anyway, as I said here's some tips: I'ts all depending on what kind of character you'de like to play - As you said, you'r party seems in a need for melee fighter. NO WAY that you think rogue's can do that! Better that the cleric will take that role (give him some money so he could buy heavier armor and you will leave longer :D ). If you want to take the melee role anyway then you should do the following actions: - Start playing with multiclass fighter/rogue or (my personal choice) rogue/swashbuckler. But you must remmember to take the rogue class first (skills). This method will give you the Weapon finesse feat for free (swashbuckler's 1th level SQ) and fighter's BAB progression. And so, by the time you'll make it 3th level swashbuckler you'll get Insight strike (or something like this) that will make you use you'r Int mod. instead of you'r str mod. for attack which is good if you don't have enough good abilitys to go around. - Build you're progression so you could take the duelist PrC Somewhere around 7th level. It will give you uncanny defence and more bonus to initiative which is great. By advancing the duelist further will give you precision strike so you will do more damge (+2d6). - Put some ranks in Tumble. If you have 5 ranks you get 1.5 times the AC dodge bonuse from the defensive stands (attack defensivly and full defense) and 15 ranks give you 2 times that AC. If you had done all of the above, by the time you'll be 12 level you should have: BAB = +11/+6/+1 AC = +dex +int +armor +tumble +dodge (it will get you somewhere around 29) Bonus to Attack = +str +int Bonus to damge = +dex (finesse) +int +sneak attack (try flanking a lot) +precision strike (mine is +6 +3 +3d6 +2d6) Beside that you should think about you'r race - Elf would be excelent range (bows profiecency) Human would give you extra feat and Halflings are the best rogue's ever (and I mean rogues of the kind that disarm trap's, not the one's that goes melee). Have fun. :D
mercurywyrm 09-04-04, 10:38 PM	Gith (and I am tempted to call you Baka Gith rather than Sensei), I think you don't realize why that feat was given a +1 BAB requirement, it was to prevent 1st level rogues from taking it! At total of +4 more to hit is a LOT! If you can take one feat that does that at first level and have sneak attack and get all those skills there would be no real reason to play any other class at first level from a power gaming perspective. Also, if you wan't an accurate in melee or dual weilding rogue, I would say that that the level of training required for such would be fighter or ranger levels. In fact, ranger levels fit quite nicely as a rogue, giving you more bab, HPs, some nice feats and abilities like track, and nearly as many skills, as well as covering quite well your TWF rouge via multiclass. The level of training required to be competent at such things as TWF is not someone who is learning how to be a rouge would be able to cover effectively until they would be around level three as far as my opinion goes. Nothing other than weapon finness gives that kind of potential increase in accuracy. If you want a rogue that can melee at first level, sorry, you gotta put your good score in strength and not dex. Many rogue skills DO benifit from strenght, such as climb and jump, so you are not hurting your skills that bad, you could instead take dodge and have a better STR score but still a dex high enough for dodge. Plus, dodge is a prerequisite for mobility and if you are a lower dex rouge you can't tumble as well so mobility helps, and helps even more if your DM allows counter tumbles like me! (Counter tumbling was introduced in Sword and Fist as an option, and as a DM I wouldn't wan't to negate one of fighter's or rouges biggest potential strenghts in being able to take mage slayer and tumble ranks and combat reflexes and be an AoO junkie! Also, if you detest not being "melee" capable as a rouge, try using a whip at low levels via bard multiclass. And if you really wan't to stick with rouge and be accurate at LVL 1 in melee you should take good strenght, it DOES give you more damage you know! Even a measly two more damage can solve the problem of low sneak attack rolls. If I were to build a TWF rouge I would do it like this: 1st LVL Ranger Weapon Finness Kukri 2nd LVL Ranger (combat style TWF) 3rd LVL Rogue Weapon Focus Kukri or like this Fighter TWF Weapon Finess Kukri Rogue or like this Rogue TWF Fighter Weapon Finess Kukri all depending on whether I need more skills or need more combat ability.
Hesparex 09-04-04, 11:04 PM	Well Inproved initiative is nice as flat footed opponents take a little extra love (assuming they have pokable anatomies). I played in an all rogue game that really made fighters seem so passe.... character A moves and attacks as opponent is flat footed sneak attack. Character B fires arrow within 30' at second opponent and deals sneak attack damage. Character C moves offset from character A and sneak attacks. Character D moves and sneaks attack second opponent. If opponent cuts and runs archer moves and fires to continue peppering them. If they stay they were looking at being flanked. Usually we had a character E as well and infrequently a character F. When we were higher level first rds vs surprised mortal opponents tended to be quite lethal. Weapon Finesse is okay but there are several other feats that I would rather take at 3rd level (such as quick draw)
l_u_k_e 09-04-04, 11:52 PM	I think the +1 bab requirment is fine. A melee rogue sould not be using strength as a dump stat, it affects damage. Your to hit wont be much more or any more than the die roll but none of the cr 1 creatures ACs are that high. For the first 2 levels you wont hit as much as the fighter but will stil have a decent shot and you will get to consistantly act 1st. In addition rouges 3/4 bab (and d6 hd) indicates that they are not the combat gods. They are the secondary fighters. They have the best skills and alot of other goodies. That is qualitative, not quantitative. A fighter at first level can slay dragons (hey, look, these eggs are neat!), craft legendary weapons (wow, another 20!), and bring entire kingdoms to their knees (okay mister, put that toy crown away and go to bed this instant!). A wizard at first level has control over the fundamental forces of reality. A psion can change his surroundings at a mere thought. A ranger... and so on. A rouge can actually do most of your fighter examples better. There is not one class that would have trouble breaking dragon eggs at level 1 (of course the adult dragon gaurding it is another matter (the rogue has a better shot at sneaking by then the fighter)). A rogue would also have more skills to spend on crafts (and seeing as the fighter keeps getting 20s how bout use that same dice for your rogue so he can automaticaly hit regardless of his atk bonus). Also seeing as the fighter could order the king around the rogue could easily exucute a coupe.