3.5 why keep beeing a sorcerer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 why keep beeing a sorcerer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
C_Karl
03-18-04, 10:25 PM I just got my core rule books 3.5 ed. and i must admit i am not an experienced player, but i have a question: once a sorcerer character has fulfiled the requirements to be an arcane trickster or an eldritch knight PrC, is there a reason to keep beeing a sorcerer? The two PrCsess appear to overpower the sorcerer, because they provide the same magical power + special abilities (arcane trickster) or better HD and attack ratings (eldritch knight), as well as better saves.
Veton
03-18-04, 10:32 PM You hit the nail on the head.

The Sorcerer loses nothing by going into a Prestige Class. Heck, he gains more then he would just taking empty levels of Sorcerer. That's why you should always hop into a PrC if you're playing a Sorcerer.
TheDarkestOfAngels
03-18-04, 10:55 PM yes. that's why there are, like 10~20 something varients for the sorcerer on this forum.
If you find the PHB sorcerer lacking, then you got a lot to choose from if you look around enough. Be careful though, as many of these are just concepts and have likely not gone through any playtesting for sure, unlike much of the more professional work in the D&D books.
Take your time... look around. you'll find what you're looking for.
I, for instance, have been working on both, a new sorcerer, and a number of new sorcerer prestige classes, though they're still works in progress and their balance against the other classes is in question. Though, if you goto the "Sorcerer Contest" you'll see links to a number of the other "sorcerer fixes/alts/varients" there as well.
Geethree
03-19-04, 12:17 AM The wizards and sorcerer classes both suffer from a lack of noticeable flavor. The sorcerer loses next to nothing when taking a PrC and the wizard loses a few feats. I would argue that the "flavor" of these classes lies in their spell selection. But that's a topic for another thread.

However, for those PrCs you provide you have to multiclass in order to get those classes. Thus, you stop leveling up as a sorcerer. It slows you down. However, there are some PrCs like the archmage that you might as well just take.
TaisharMalkier
03-19-04, 01:30 AM Zug Zug.

As for flavor, for a wizard at least, I'd reccomend using the Specialist Wizard Variants in Unearthed Arcana - they are simply mindblowly cool - and seem balanced IMO. Add tons of flavor.

For Sorcerer - the Ultimate Sorcerer posted somewhere is quite good, though you'd definately need to tone it down if you weren't using the rest of the ultimate classes (the ultimate classes are suppose to be equivalent of base class + PrC).

Cheers
DM Zoc
03-19-04, 03:36 AM The best reason to stay sorcerer is because you want to cast high-level spells, assuming your DM isn't using the prestige class option.
Thermanshs
03-19-04, 06:02 AM Hey! There actually IS a sorcerer's feature which progression goes through sorcerer levels only!***Familiar advancement***!!!:angel:
Findail
03-19-04, 06:16 AM Well, for most spellcasting PrC's, you either need to gain one or more levels of something else (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge etc), or spend Feats on things that you probably wouldn't otherwise take, in order to qualify (Archmage, Loremaster etc).

Being a straight Sorcerer means that you get to spend all your Feats on metamagic (or whatever else you need). Though, in the case of Loremaster, your metamagic Feats help you qualify anyhow, you only need to "waste" one more Feat (Skill Focus on a knowledge skill), and you can take a bonus Feat as a Loremaster Secret to compensate. It's a little difficult for a Sorcerer to meet the other requirements though.
Sir Ferdinand
03-19-04, 09:12 AM There's couple of good reasons.

To become Arcane Trickster, you must have 7 ranks in Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, and 4 ranks in Knowledge arcana.
Now Sorcerers get 2 skill points per level, and Decipher Script, Disable Device and Escape Artist are all cross class skills. So you must spend 42 skill points total to get those requirements. And add 4 skill points to Knowledge arcana, and skill points to Concentration and you'll see why Sorcerers usually don't multiclass into Arcane Tricster.

To become Eldritch Knight, you must be proficient with all Martial weapons. So it immediately means one level of some of the warrior classes, as Sorcerers aren't proficient with Martial weapons and Martial Weapon Proficiency only gives you one proficiency to specific Martial weapon. And one level in Fighter means gaining spells at slower rate than normally.

And some people (like me), simply don't want to multiclass. And especially when the goal is to min-max the character!
Kage Wellby
03-19-04, 09:37 AM Get The Draconomicon, and tell me that you don't think a Halfling or Gnome Sorceror riding on the back of a Gold Wyrmling isn't cool as Snilloc's Snowball Swarm. Or something like that.

Imagine that dragonrider bearing down on you with a lance, then all of a sudden, he whips out a Meteor Swarm (admittedly not the best of the 9th level spells, but it gets the point across).
Blaceros85
03-19-04, 10:38 AM Does anybody think the spellcaster from unearthed arcana is a suitable replacement for the sorceror?
Veton
03-19-04, 10:58 AM Originally posted by Sir Ferdinand
To become Arcane Trickster, you must have 7 ranks in Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, and 4 ranks in Knowledge arcana.
Now Sorcerers get 2 skill points per level, and Decipher Script, Disable Device and Escape Artist are all cross class skills. So you must spend 42 skill points total to get those requirements. And add 4 skill points to Knowledge arcana, and skill points to Concentration and you'll see why Sorcerers usually don't multiclass into Arcane Tricster.

Or you could multi-class into Rogue.

To become Eldritch Knight, you must be proficient with all Martial weapons. So it immediately means one level of some of the warrior classes, as Sorcerers aren't proficient with Martial weapons and Martial Weapon Proficiency only gives you one proficiency to specific Martial weapon. And one level in Fighter means gaining spells at slower rate than normally.

Meh, it's only one level.

Besides, there are few good Sorcerer PrCs. Dragon Diciple is okay, but you only get a few spells in a course of 10 levels.
PoPo
03-19-04, 12:06 PM I have a few reason's:

1. The sorcerer has good prastige class.
2. The sorcerer can cast much more spells.
BlaineTog
03-19-04, 07:22 PM Originally posted by Thermanshs
Hey! There actually IS a sorcerer's feature which progression goes through sorcerer levels only!***Familiar advancement***!!!:angel:My group has a kickname for Familiars and Familiar Advancement:

"Worthless."

;)
Thermanshs
03-19-04, 07:25 PM That's what I think too.That was a joke if you didn't get it:(
Thermanshs
03-19-04, 07:30 PM Well if not worthless maybe they can serve you as spies,nightwatchers,messengers and the like.And add flavor too!
Manyx was offended though...
Sorxores
03-19-04, 08:05 PM Sorcerer do miss special ability. Here Some I suggest:

to all these type give one of these bonus skill list:
- Sneak: move silently, hide, search
- Magic user: UMD, Decipher script
- Watch: Listen, spot, sense motive

And the Eschew Material (costless material not necessarie and costly material cost 1/25 XP) at level one

Scry and Spellcraft is a Cha base skill for sorcerer (and Bard) since they learn, know, use spell using their Cha

give him profiencie, weapon specialization, improved critical with ray, touch and missile spell

OR

create some ability to give them at level 5-10-15-20 that worth the it. If you thing it overpower modifier the spell list by taking off all the "ritual spell". The ritual spell are spell that requirement more then a full round action (without metamagic modification) to cast and spell with costly material and Xp cost

OR

some thing sorcerer should receive blood line, it something like domaine exept you receive only one and it's links to the reason your sorcerer have spell ([enter color] dragon blood, celestial blood, fiendish blood, genie blood, god blood, ancester blood, Luck...)

the ancester blood if for sorcerer that receive there spell because they are child of very powerfull wizard.

Luck is for other reason that I didn't mention. And you can create new blood line too. Bloodline give you one extra spell know and per day that can only be aquire with sorcerer level (PrC that give advancement spellcaster level won't give the bloodline spell and per day) and some special abilities.
By exemple, the dragon blood line could receive a breath weapon that they can use 1/5 level per day doing 5d6 damage. (the breath weapon for a sorcerer level 1 make 1d6 damage, lvl 2 make 2d6... 6 level you have one breath doing 5d6 and one breath doing 1d6...)

EDIT: I didn't test these ideas, and they are only idea that can be modifie.
Azure Knight
03-19-04, 08:14 PM Originally posted by Veton
Meh, it's only one level.

It's two levels. The first level of Eldritch Knight gives no arcane advancement. So a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 9/Eldritch Knight 10 will cast as a level 18 sorcerer. Which is still pretty damn good.
zcthu3
03-19-04, 10:14 PM Originally posted by BlaineTog
My group has a kickname for Familiars and Familiar Advancement:

"Worthless."

;)

Personally, a bit of a harsh call - even at low levels the free "Alertness" feat is useful as is the other skill bonuses. At higher levels the ability to use familars as spies, scouts etc. is very cool and IME very useful.

It
BlaineTog
03-19-04, 10:39 PM Originally posted by zcthu3
Personally, a bit of a harsh call - even at low levels the free "Alertness" feat is useful as is the other skill bonuses.Useful? yes. Worth the risk of losing 20% of your XP to get to the next level (and then not being able to regain the familiar for a year and a day)? Heck no. Familiars are cool, but the risk outweighs the benefits IMHO.

And try comparing them to Animal Companions. Yeah.

I like Familiars, as a concept. I just think that they were executed poorley (why, for instance, do they have virtually no impact on the casting of the sor/wiz? In every single instance of Familiars in fantasy that I know of, the familar is always around when it's master is casting. Why devalue them to (vulnerable) scouts?

At higher levels the ability to use familars as spies, scouts etc. is very cool and IME very useful.And at higher levels, you can use spells such as scry to do that. Arcane Eyes (IIRC) is pretty good too.
zcthu3
03-19-04, 11:01 PM Originally posted by BlaineTog
Useful? yes. Worth the risk of losing 20% of your XP to get to the next level (and then not being able to regain the familiar for a year and a day)? Heck no. Familiars are cool, but the risk outweighs the benefits IMHO.

I have never had one of my familiars killed (in fact I've never had one of my Sorcerers or Wizards killed and I play alot of these characters) - I tend to be careful with them and keep them out of harms way - having said that I tend to avoid combat as Sorcerers and Wizards aren't built for it. Losing 20% of your XP is nasty but I've never experienced the loss so I can't really comment.

Originally posted by BlaineTog
And try comparing them to Animal Companions. Yeah.

But your familar gets more intelligent etc., effectively another character, rather than being a trainied animal

Originally posted by BlaineTog
I like Familiars, as a concept. I just think that they were executed poorley (why, for instance, do they have virtually no impact on the casting of the sor/wiz? In every single instance of Familiars in fantasy that I know of, the familar is always around when it's master is casting. Why devalue them to (vulnerable) scouts?

Okay, agreed on this point - although I don't think they are that vulnerable - I mean, who looks twice at the bird flying overhead or the rat hiding in the corner.

Originally posted by BlaineTog
And at higher levels, you can use spells such as scry to do that. Arcane Eyes (IIRC) is pretty good too.

Yes you are quite right - and having a familar makes it possible to scry out an area - by having your familiar there - and, as they are intelligent they can be told to follow a target making it easier to scry them as well.
BlaineTog
03-19-04, 11:26 PM Originally posted by zcthu3
I have never had one of my familiars killed (in fact I've never had one of my Sorcerers or Wizards killed and I play alot of these characters) - I tend to be careful with them and keep them out of harms way - having said that I tend to avoid combat as Sorcerers and Wizards aren't built for it. Losing 20% of your XP is nasty but I've never experienced the loss so I can't really comment.Mabye I'm overly defensive, but I'd rather not take the risk. Familiars are cool and all, but I juts don't see them as comparing with Animal Companions. It gets a higher Int, but that's only so useful (read: none at all).

But your familar gets more intelligent etc., effectively another character, rather than being a trainied animalExcept the trained animal can actually do something in battle. It's like having a Cohort, but if it dies, the only downside is -1 to everything for a month (as opposed ot having your leadership score damaged).

Okay, agreed on this point - although I don't think they are that vulnerable - I mean, who looks twice at the bird flying overhead or the rat hiding in the corner.They only get 1/2 your HP. You only get d4s. So they are basically riding on your Con mod with a little extra (assuming you roll well).

Yes you are quite right - and having a familar makes it possible to scry out an area - by having your familiar there - and, as they are intelligent they can be told to follow a target making it easier to scry them as well.Yes, but Arcane Eyes does this also (pretty well, too). And you can (theoretically) Scry on someone eithout knowing anything about them too.
zcthu3
03-20-04, 12:29 AM Originally posted by BlaineTog
Mabye I'm overly defensive, but I'd rather not take the risk. Familiars are cool and all, but I juts don't see them as comparing with Animal Companions. It gets a higher Int, but that's only so useful (read: none at all).

Except the trained animal can actually do something in battle. It's like having a Cohort, but if it dies, the only downside is -1 to everything for a month (as opposed ot having your leadership score damaged).

They only get 1/2 your HP. You only get d4s. So they are basically riding on your Con mod with a little extra (assuming you roll well).

Yes, but Arcane Eyes does this also (pretty well, too). And you can (theoretically) Scry on someone eithout knowing anything about them too.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

I've always found the higher INT of a familiar very useful - you can explain complex plans to a familiar and have them carry them out - ie. carry this note to such adn such. If he isn't where he normally is look for him here etc.

An animal companion on the other hand is restricted to certain "tricks" and, while useful in combat, are fairly limited.

I've actually come to the conclusion that a druid's animal companion is unbalanced compared to other characters at low level effectively granting the druid the equivalent of an extra action (or more per round) eg. "they" can attack, cast a spell and move - generally just as well as anyone else (the AnComp can attack as well as a fighter, the druid can cast a spell just like a Cleric etc.)

As for the scry thing, I agree you can do the same thing without a familar - but Arcane Eye is limited in its range and trying to scry on people you don't know is extremely difficult.

Anyway, I think it comes down to the individual's opinion - I find familars VERY useful and animal companions overpowered at low levels - having said that I tend to have a more narrative style of play and tend to prefer flavour over balance.
Thermanshs
03-20-04, 08:40 AM I agree with both Zcthu3 and Blainetog.Familiars aren't meant for combat but you can still polymorph them for free if you cast it on yourself(by 7th lvl you have a free Rhemoraz animal companion which speaks and shares the same emptions with you).Also note that giving the animal companion orders during a combat requires a move action because they're too stupid to take decisions themselves...and you'll NEVER have such trouble with your familiar
BlaineTog
03-20-04, 01:12 PM Originally posted by Thermanshs
Also note that giving the animal companion orders during a combat requires a move action because they're too stupid to take decisions themselves...and you'll NEVER have such trouble with your familiar Free action.
Thermanshs
03-20-04, 01:47 PM ;)
zcthu3
03-20-04, 05:47 PM Originally posted by BlaineTog
Free action.

Your both right actually, it's a free action to "handle" and a move action to "push" an animal companion.
Sir Ferdinand
03-23-04, 07:40 AM By Veton:
Or you could multi-class into Rogue.

Those skills I mentioned requires 7 ranks, so even if you multiclass into a Rogue, you still need 4 levels in it to get 7 ranks in Disable Device for example. So you lose 4 spellcasting levels, and you can't even cast 8th level spells anymore. Single classed Sorcerer is better.

Meh, it's only one level.

Besides, there are few good Sorcerer PrCs. Dragon Diciple is okay, but you only get a few spells in a course of 10 levels.

As was said already, you actually lose 2 spellcasting levels if you do so as Eldricht Knight doesn't gain +1 spellcasting level at 1st level.

And both examples have one other problem. You'd get 20% experience penalty because of multiclassing unless you'd have a suitable race favored classes.

I'd say being a single classed Sorcerer is much better option.
the Horc
03-23-04, 01:42 PM Reason to continue taking sorcerer levels? To swap out the crappy or ultimately useless at higher levels spells that you took at earlier levels.

The idea I get from the text, is that it refers to the sorcerer level and not the caster level.

Which sucks, btw.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
C_Karl 03-18-04, 10:25 PM	I just got my core rule books 3.5 ed. and i must admit i am not an experienced player, but i have a question: once a sorcerer character has fulfiled the requirements to be an arcane trickster or an eldritch knight PrC, is there a reason to keep beeing a sorcerer? The two PrCsess appear to overpower the sorcerer, because they provide the same magical power + special abilities (arcane trickster) or better HD and attack ratings (eldritch knight), as well as better saves.
Veton 03-18-04, 10:32 PM	You hit the nail on the head. The Sorcerer loses nothing by going into a Prestige Class. Heck, he gains more then he would just taking empty levels of Sorcerer. That's why you should always hop into a PrC if you're playing a Sorcerer.
TheDarkestOfAngels 03-18-04, 10:55 PM	yes. that's why there are, like 10~20 something varients for the sorcerer on this forum. If you find the PHB sorcerer lacking, then you got a lot to choose from if you look around enough. Be careful though, as many of these are just concepts and have likely not gone through any playtesting for sure, unlike much of the more professional work in the D&D books. Take your time... look around. you'll find what you're looking for. I, for instance, have been working on both, a new sorcerer, and a number of new sorcerer prestige classes, though they're still works in progress and their balance against the other classes is in question. Though, if you goto the "Sorcerer Contest" you'll see links to a number of the other "sorcerer fixes/alts/varients" there as well.
Geethree 03-19-04, 12:17 AM	The wizards and sorcerer classes both suffer from a lack of noticeable flavor. The sorcerer loses next to nothing when taking a PrC and the wizard loses a few feats. I would argue that the "flavor" of these classes lies in their spell selection. But that's a topic for another thread. However, for those PrCs you provide you have to multiclass in order to get those classes. Thus, you stop leveling up as a sorcerer. It slows you down. However, there are some PrCs like the archmage that you might as well just take.
TaisharMalkier 03-19-04, 01:30 AM	Zug Zug. As for flavor, for a wizard at least, I'd reccomend using the Specialist Wizard Variants in Unearthed Arcana - they are simply mindblowly cool - and seem balanced IMO. Add tons of flavor. For Sorcerer - the Ultimate Sorcerer posted somewhere is quite good, though you'd definately need to tone it down if you weren't using the rest of the ultimate classes (the ultimate classes are suppose to be equivalent of base class + PrC). Cheers
DM Zoc 03-19-04, 03:36 AM	The best reason to stay sorcerer is because you want to cast high-level spells, assuming your DM isn't using the prestige class option.
Thermanshs 03-19-04, 06:02 AM	Hey! There actually IS a sorcerer's feature which progression goes through sorcerer levels only!*Familiar advancement*!!!:angel:
Findail 03-19-04, 06:16 AM	Well, for most spellcasting PrC's, you either need to gain one or more levels of something else (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge etc), or spend Feats on things that you probably wouldn't otherwise take, in order to qualify (Archmage, Loremaster etc). Being a straight Sorcerer means that you get to spend all your Feats on metamagic (or whatever else you need). Though, in the case of Loremaster, your metamagic Feats help you qualify anyhow, you only need to "waste" one more Feat (Skill Focus on a knowledge skill), and you can take a bonus Feat as a Loremaster Secret to compensate. It's a little difficult for a Sorcerer to meet the other requirements though.
Sir Ferdinand 03-19-04, 09:12 AM	There's couple of good reasons. To become Arcane Trickster, you must have 7 ranks in Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, and 4 ranks in Knowledge arcana. Now Sorcerers get 2 skill points per level, and Decipher Script, Disable Device and Escape Artist are all cross class skills. So you must spend 42 skill points total to get those requirements. And add 4 skill points to Knowledge arcana, and skill points to Concentration and you'll see why Sorcerers usually don't multiclass into Arcane Tricster. To become Eldritch Knight, you must be proficient with all Martial weapons. So it immediately means one level of some of the warrior classes, as Sorcerers aren't proficient with Martial weapons and Martial Weapon Proficiency only gives you one proficiency to specific Martial weapon. And one level in Fighter means gaining spells at slower rate than normally. And some people (like me), simply don't want to multiclass. And especially when the goal is to min-max the character!
Kage Wellby 03-19-04, 09:37 AM	Get The Draconomicon, and tell me that you don't think a Halfling or Gnome Sorceror riding on the back of a Gold Wyrmling isn't cool as Snilloc's Snowball Swarm. Or something like that. Imagine that dragonrider bearing down on you with a lance, then all of a sudden, he whips out a Meteor Swarm (admittedly not the best of the 9th level spells, but it gets the point across).
Blaceros85 03-19-04, 10:38 AM	Does anybody think the spellcaster from unearthed arcana is a suitable replacement for the sorceror?
Veton 03-19-04, 10:58 AM	Originally posted by Sir Ferdinand To become Arcane Trickster, you must have 7 ranks in Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, and 4 ranks in Knowledge arcana. Now Sorcerers get 2 skill points per level, and Decipher Script, Disable Device and Escape Artist are all cross class skills. So you must spend 42 skill points total to get those requirements. And add 4 skill points to Knowledge arcana, and skill points to Concentration and you'll see why Sorcerers usually don't multiclass into Arcane Tricster. Or you could multi-class into Rogue. To become Eldritch Knight, you must be proficient with all Martial weapons. So it immediately means one level of some of the warrior classes, as Sorcerers aren't proficient with Martial weapons and Martial Weapon Proficiency only gives you one proficiency to specific Martial weapon. And one level in Fighter means gaining spells at slower rate than normally. Meh, it's only one level. Besides, there are few good Sorcerer PrCs. Dragon Diciple is okay, but you only get a few spells in a course of 10 levels.
PoPo 03-19-04, 12:06 PM	I have a few reason's: 1. The sorcerer has good prastige class. 2. The sorcerer can cast much more spells.
BlaineTog 03-19-04, 07:22 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs Hey! There actually IS a sorcerer's feature which progression goes through sorcerer levels only!*Familiar advancement*!!!:angel:My group has a kickname for Familiars and Familiar Advancement: "Worthless." ;)
Thermanshs 03-19-04, 07:25 PM	That's what I think too.That was a joke if you didn't get it:(
Thermanshs 03-19-04, 07:30 PM	Well if not worthless maybe they can serve you as spies,nightwatchers,messengers and the like.And add flavor too! Manyx was offended though...
Sorxores 03-19-04, 08:05 PM	Sorcerer do miss special ability. Here Some I suggest: to all these type give one of these bonus skill list: - Sneak: move silently, hide, search - Magic user: UMD, Decipher script - Watch: Listen, spot, sense motive And the Eschew Material (costless material not necessarie and costly material cost 1/25 XP) at level one Scry and Spellcraft is a Cha base skill for sorcerer (and Bard) since they learn, know, use spell using their Cha give him profiencie, weapon specialization, improved critical with ray, touch and missile spell OR create some ability to give them at level 5-10-15-20 that worth the it. If you thing it overpower modifier the spell list by taking off all the "ritual spell". The ritual spell are spell that requirement more then a full round action (without metamagic modification) to cast and spell with costly material and Xp cost OR some thing sorcerer should receive blood line, it something like domaine exept you receive only one and it's links to the reason your sorcerer have spell ([enter color] dragon blood, celestial blood, fiendish blood, genie blood, god blood, ancester blood, Luck...) the ancester blood if for sorcerer that receive there spell because they are child of very powerfull wizard. Luck is for other reason that I didn't mention. And you can create new blood line too. Bloodline give you one extra spell know and per day that can only be aquire with sorcerer level (PrC that give advancement spellcaster level won't give the bloodline spell and per day) and some special abilities. By exemple, the dragon blood line could receive a breath weapon that they can use 1/5 level per day doing 5d6 damage. (the breath weapon for a sorcerer level 1 make 1d6 damage, lvl 2 make 2d6... 6 level you have one breath doing 5d6 and one breath doing 1d6...) EDIT: I didn't test these ideas, and they are only idea that can be modifie.
Azure Knight 03-19-04, 08:14 PM	Originally posted by Veton Meh, it's only one level. It's two levels. The first level of Eldritch Knight gives no arcane advancement. So a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 9/Eldritch Knight 10 will cast as a level 18 sorcerer. Which is still pretty damn good.
zcthu3 03-19-04, 10:14 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog My group has a kickname for Familiars and Familiar Advancement: "Worthless." ;) Personally, a bit of a harsh call - even at low levels the free "Alertness" feat is useful as is the other skill bonuses. At higher levels the ability to use familars as spies, scouts etc. is very cool and IME very useful. It
BlaineTog 03-19-04, 10:39 PM	Originally posted by zcthu3 Personally, a bit of a harsh call - even at low levels the free "Alertness" feat is useful as is the other skill bonuses.Useful? yes. Worth the risk of losing 20% of your XP to get to the next level (and then not being able to regain the familiar for a year and a day)? Heck no. Familiars are cool, but the risk outweighs the benefits IMHO. And try comparing them to Animal Companions. Yeah. I like Familiars, as a concept. I just think that they were executed poorley (why, for instance, do they have virtually no impact on the casting of the sor/wiz? In every single instance of Familiars in fantasy that I know of, the familar is always around when it's master is casting. Why devalue them to (vulnerable) scouts? At higher levels the ability to use familars as spies, scouts etc. is very cool and IME very useful.And at higher levels, you can use spells such as scry to do that. Arcane Eyes (IIRC) is pretty good too.
zcthu3 03-19-04, 11:01 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Useful? yes. Worth the risk of losing 20% of your XP to get to the next level (and then not being able to regain the familiar for a year and a day)? Heck no. Familiars are cool, but the risk outweighs the benefits IMHO. I have never had one of my familiars killed (in fact I've never had one of my Sorcerers or Wizards killed and I play alot of these characters) - I tend to be careful with them and keep them out of harms way - having said that I tend to avoid combat as Sorcerers and Wizards aren't built for it. Losing 20% of your XP is nasty but I've never experienced the loss so I can't really comment. Originally posted by BlaineTog And try comparing them to Animal Companions. Yeah. But your familar gets more intelligent etc., effectively another character, rather than being a trainied animal Originally posted by BlaineTog I like Familiars, as a concept. I just think that they were executed poorley (why, for instance, do they have virtually no impact on the casting of the sor/wiz? In every single instance of Familiars in fantasy that I know of, the familar is always around when it's master is casting. Why devalue them to (vulnerable) scouts? Okay, agreed on this point - although I don't think they are that vulnerable - I mean, who looks twice at the bird flying overhead or the rat hiding in the corner. Originally posted by BlaineTog And at higher levels, you can use spells such as scry to do that. Arcane Eyes (IIRC) is pretty good too. Yes you are quite right - and having a familar makes it possible to scry out an area - by having your familiar there - and, as they are intelligent they can be told to follow a target making it easier to scry them as well.
BlaineTog 03-19-04, 11:26 PM	Originally posted by zcthu3 I have never had one of my familiars killed (in fact I've never had one of my Sorcerers or Wizards killed and I play alot of these characters) - I tend to be careful with them and keep them out of harms way - having said that I tend to avoid combat as Sorcerers and Wizards aren't built for it. Losing 20% of your XP is nasty but I've never experienced the loss so I can't really comment.Mabye I'm overly defensive, but I'd rather not take the risk. Familiars are cool and all, but I juts don't see them as comparing with Animal Companions. It gets a higher Int, but that's only so useful (read: none at all). But your familar gets more intelligent etc., effectively another character, rather than being a trainied animalExcept the trained animal can actually do something in battle. It's like having a Cohort, but if it dies, the only downside is -1 to everything for a month (as opposed ot having your leadership score damaged). Okay, agreed on this point - although I don't think they are that vulnerable - I mean, who looks twice at the bird flying overhead or the rat hiding in the corner.They only get 1/2 your HP. You only get d4s. So they are basically riding on your Con mod with a little extra (assuming you roll well). Yes you are quite right - and having a familar makes it possible to scry out an area - by having your familiar there - and, as they are intelligent they can be told to follow a target making it easier to scry them as well.Yes, but Arcane Eyes does this also (pretty well, too). And you can (theoretically) Scry on someone eithout knowing anything about them too.
zcthu3 03-20-04, 12:29 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Mabye I'm overly defensive, but I'd rather not take the risk. Familiars are cool and all, but I juts don't see them as comparing with Animal Companions. It gets a higher Int, but that's only so useful (read: none at all). Except the trained animal can actually do something in battle. It's like having a Cohort, but if it dies, the only downside is -1 to everything for a month (as opposed ot having your leadership score damaged). They only get 1/2 your HP. You only get d4s. So they are basically riding on your Con mod with a little extra (assuming you roll well). Yes, but Arcane Eyes does this also (pretty well, too). And you can (theoretically) Scry on someone eithout knowing anything about them too. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I've always found the higher INT of a familiar very useful - you can explain complex plans to a familiar and have them carry them out - ie. carry this note to such adn such. If he isn't where he normally is look for him here etc. An animal companion on the other hand is restricted to certain "tricks" and, while useful in combat, are fairly limited. I've actually come to the conclusion that a druid's animal companion is unbalanced compared to other characters at low level effectively granting the druid the equivalent of an extra action (or more per round) eg. "they" can attack, cast a spell and move - generally just as well as anyone else (the AnComp can attack as well as a fighter, the druid can cast a spell just like a Cleric etc.) As for the scry thing, I agree you can do the same thing without a familar - but Arcane Eye is limited in its range and trying to scry on people you don't know is extremely difficult. Anyway, I think it comes down to the individual's opinion - I find familars VERY useful and animal companions overpowered at low levels - having said that I tend to have a more narrative style of play and tend to prefer flavour over balance.
Thermanshs 03-20-04, 08:40 AM	I agree with both Zcthu3 and Blainetog.Familiars aren't meant for combat but you can still polymorph them for free if you cast it on yourself(by 7th lvl you have a free Rhemoraz animal companion which speaks and shares the same emptions with you).Also note that giving the animal companion orders during a combat requires a move action because they're too stupid to take decisions themselves...and you'll NEVER have such trouble with your familiar
BlaineTog 03-20-04, 01:12 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs Also note that giving the animal companion orders during a combat requires a move action because they're too stupid to take decisions themselves...and you'll NEVER have such trouble with your familiar Free action.
Thermanshs 03-20-04, 01:47 PM	;)
zcthu3 03-20-04, 05:47 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Free action. Your both right actually, it's a free action to "handle" and a move action to "push" an animal companion.
Sir Ferdinand 03-23-04, 07:40 AM	By Veton: Or you could multi-class into Rogue. Those skills I mentioned requires 7 ranks, so even if you multiclass into a Rogue, you still need 4 levels in it to get 7 ranks in Disable Device for example. So you lose 4 spellcasting levels, and you can't even cast 8th level spells anymore. Single classed Sorcerer is better. Meh, it's only one level. Besides, there are few good Sorcerer PrCs. Dragon Diciple is okay, but you only get a few spells in a course of 10 levels. As was said already, you actually lose 2 spellcasting levels if you do so as Eldricht Knight doesn't gain +1 spellcasting level at 1st level. And both examples have one other problem. You'd get 20% experience penalty because of multiclassing unless you'd have a suitable race favored classes. I'd say being a single classed Sorcerer is much better option.
the Horc 03-23-04, 01:42 PM	Reason to continue taking sorcerer levels? To swap out the crappy or ultimately useless at higher levels spells that you took at earlier levels. The idea I get from the text, is that it refers to the sorcerer level and not the caster level. Which sucks, btw.