3.5 Wizard's Challenge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
TaisharMalkier

05-19-04, 06:51 PM		Zug Zug.

From another thread some people got into a discussion about making a wizard that can regularly "handle anything". The DM will be able to find challenges that the lone wizard is not capable of regularly handling. Others say they can make a character able to take anything that the DM can toss their way with relative ease.

The rules are strict: Core 3.5 edition non-optional PHB rules.

Wizard level 14 - no multiclassing, no PrC.
GP to work with is standard.

Standard ability score array 15,14,13,12,10,8.

You can craft anything you have the feat to use, any item from the DMG that you meet the caster level requirement for - you must pay for spells cast by other spellcasters. Tabulate the XP.

Leadership is not allowed (per DMG p.46 the DM "is free to dissallow this feat") because that's not the purpose of this challenge.

You get 2 spells per level for free beyond first level as per PHB. All other spells in the spellbook must be bought at DMG prices and scribed as per PHB into your spell books.

Scrolls you can't make because you're not high enough level are not considered part of your regular arsenal, otherwise they are (the challenge is rather irrelevant if you have 28 850 GP scroll of wish...).

Permananecy is allowed, tabulate the XP though.

This specific thread was made because I thought that basically the only way the wizard survived solo in 3.0 was from using broken spells (Polymorph, Other, and Haste primarily). In 3.5, I feel that they'd have 0 chance to defeat it - has any character against a EL equivalent to their level should have.


Cheers
fractal

05-19-04, 10:02 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
This specific thread was made because I thought that basically the only way the wizard survived solo in 3.0 was from using broken spells (Polymorph, Other, and Haste primarily). In 3.5, I feel that they'd have 0 chance to defeat it - has any character against a EL equivalent to their level should have.
You ought to win about half the time against an equal EL, right? With variations depending upon factors such as surprise, initiative, and particular weaknesses of the characters and monsters involved.

I don't think there should be 0 chance to survive, although of course the odds would catch up with you pretty quickly.
TaisharMalkier

05-19-04, 10:06 PM		Zug Zug.

"You ought to win about half the time against an equal EL, right? With variations depending upon factors such as surprise, initiative, and particular weaknesses of the characters and monsters involved.

I don't think there should be 0 chance to survive, although of course the odds would catch up with you pretty quickly."

Technically, you should win 50% of the time. In reality, it seems much more likely that you'd die or be unable to defeat it 90% of the time.


Cheers
PhaedrusXY

05-20-04, 01:46 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Technically, you should win 50% of the time. In reality, it seems much more likely that you'd die or be unable to defeat it 90% of the time.
Umm... I disagree strongly with that sentiment. There are alot of monsters that have absolulely no chance at killing a wizard under all but the most extreme circumstances. Namely, if they can't both 1) fly and 2) see invisible creatures, they are SOL.

The opposite is not the case. There are only a few monsters that a well prepared wizard really has no chance at beating. I will not say that there are no such monsters, but that they are much rarer than the ones he can defeat easily. Conversely, there are alot more monsters that can easily defeat a fighter.

Of course, these are just my opinions on the matter, and the point of these threads is to estimate where the truth actually lies.
SuperThread

05-20-04, 01:55 AM		I'm interested :). I'll try to draw up a character sometime tomorrow or Friday night.

What buffs will you allow to be active at the start of a given challenge? Will you set a duration limit?

EDIT: How are you going to rule the use of expendable gear? Will the Wizard's supply get replenished each challenge?
DungeonMaster

05-20-04, 10:06 AM		Great! I'll be posting here very shortly, I still have nitty gritty skills and things to work out.
TaisharMalkier

05-20-04, 02:11 PM		Zug Zug.

"I'm interested . I'll try to draw up a character sometime tomorrow or Friday night.

What buffs will you allow to be active at the start of a given challenge? Will you set a duration limit?

EDIT: How are you going to rule the use of expendable gear? Will the Wizard's supply get replenished each challenge?"

Going to run it like an encounter. So only things that would be up are buffs you'd cast at the start of the day - I'll likely randomize when the encounter would occur if your buffs don't last the full adventuring time (which they should if they are hour / level).

For expendable gear - going to generate gold for each encounter, and if it's enough, replenish supplies / stockpile if extra. If you use more expendable gear then you'd get back in treasure, then you're SOL.

Would be nice to get a little background character info - just so it dosen't feel so weird just making up background info.


Cheers
SuperThread

05-20-04, 02:56 PM		The SRD says that the average treasure value for an encounter at 14th level is 17k, so could we make it simple and say that my Wizard can use up to 17k, no more, of expendable gear each challenge?

Also, how long will I be assumed to be adventuring each day (which would be the necessary minimum duration for my buffs)? 8 hours seems like a fairly good number to me, but it really doesn't matter as long as it's between 261 minutes and 13 hours (so that extended 10 min/level buffs don't stay on all day, but 1 hour/level buffs do). :)

EDIT: What's the starting gold for 14th level?
DungeonMaster

05-20-04, 04:00 PM		Ialldor - an old human mage past his prime
Alignment - Chaotic Good

Stats:
15,14,13,12,10,8

Str 5 (base 8 -3 age ) -3 modifier (light load 15 lbs, max 50 lbs)
Dex 7 (base 10 -3 age) -2 modifier
Con 14 (base 13 -3 age + 4 item) +2 modifier
Int 26 (base 15 +2 age +3 levels +6 item) +8 modifier
Wis 16 (base 14 +2 age) +3 modifier
Cha 14 (base 12 +2 age) +2 modifier

Hp: 66.5 = 4 + 13x2.5 + 15x2

AC: 12 = 10 base + 4 armor (spell) - 2 dex

Saves: +13/+7/+17
Base: +4/+4/+9
w ability scores: +6/+2/+12 then +5 resistance +2 fort from familiar (rat)

Skills:
Base 2+1 race+3 from int until level 4 then 2+1+4 and at level 12 it becomes 2+1+5
Thus 6x4+6x2+7x8+8x3 = 116 skill points
+15 Concentration 13 ranks
+12 Alchemy 4 ranks
+12 Spellcraft 4 ranks
+12 Craft(sculpting) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(arcana) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge("dungeoneering") 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(nature) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(religion) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(the planes) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(history) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(local) 4 ranks
+10 Knowledge(geography) 2 ranks
+6 Move silently 8 ranks
+6 Hide 8 ranks
+9 Decipher script 1 ranks

Languages:
Common + 3 at level 1.
Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome
14 other languages, 28 skill points
Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Goblin, Giant, Gnoll,
Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Orc, Terran, Undercommon.


Gear:
18 000 +6 headband of intellect fox's cunning
8 000 +4 amulet of health endurance
15 000 orange ioun stone
12 500 +5 cloak of resistance resistance
6 250 Boccob's blessed book secret page
2 000 Ring of counterspells (greater dispel magic)
10 000 Ring of invisibility
1 750 Dust of dissapearance

73 500 GP on magical gear

14 000 2x metamagic rod of maximize lesser
17 500 1x metamagic rod of quicken, lesser

31 500 GP of rods - rods are attached to my robe via silk rope and metal chain so that when I drop one it hangs not far below my belt.

Feats: 8 total = 5 base + 1 human + 2 bonus wizard class
Craft wondrous item 5th level bonus feat
Craft rod 10th level bonus feat
Empower spell 1st
Maximize spell 3rd
Quicken spell 9th
Spell penetration 1st
Greater spell penetration 6th
Forge ring 12th

Spells per day:
Base:
4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2
Bonus:
0/2/2/2/2/1/1/1
Total:
4/6/6/6/6/4/4/3

Level 7: Statue (cast) - Limited wish x2
Level 6: Repulsion - Flesh to stone - Max lighting bolt - Emp enervation
Level 5: Cone of cold - 1xEmp fireball - 2xEmp lightning bolt
Level 4: Polymorph - Detect scrying (cast) - Confusion - Dimension door - Wall of fire
Level 3: Emp magic missile - Daylight - Fly - Fireball - Lightning bolt - Halt undead
Level 2: Web - Rope trick - Misdirection (cast) - Melf's acid arrow - Darkvision (cast) - Ghoul touch
Level 1: Mage armor (cast) - Magic-missile - Feather fall - Unseen servant (cast) - Shield - True strike
Level 0: Detect magic - Detect poison - Prestidigitation - Dancing lights

Spell books:
Ialldor's scrible-pad of spell research:
7th level: Forcecage - Statue - Limited wish - Project image
6th level: Contingency - True seeing - Programmed image - Permanent image
5th level: Teleport - Transmute rock to mud - Persistant image - Magic jar
4th level: Enervation - Arcane eye - Detect scrying - Scrying
3rd level: Secret page - Blink - Fireball - Lightning bolt - Vampiric touch
2nd level: Arcane lock - Web - See invisibility - Invisibility
1st level: Identify - Magic missile - Ventriloquism - Shield - Unseen servant - Sleep - Feather fall - Mage armor - Alarm
(I get 3 + int modifier for free at 1st level which was only +4 back then... so 7 free + 2 from second level = 9 free)
Oth level: All

Ialldor's 1000 pages of blessed book:
7th level: "Greater" heroism 2275 GP
total 2275 GP and 14 pages.
6th level: Greater dispelling 1650 GP - Repulsion 1650 GP - Acid fog 1650 GP - Mislead 1650 GP - Flesh to Stone 1650 GP
total: 8250 GP and 60 pages.
5th level: Wall of force 1125 GP - Wall of stone 1125 GP - Major Creation 1125 GP - Cone of cold 1125 GP - Contact other plane 1125 GP
total: 5625 GP and 50 pages.
4th level: Polymorph self 700 GP - Wall of fire 700 GP - Dimension door 700 GP - Confusion 700 GP - Locate creature 700 GP - Dimensional Anchor 700 GP - Evard's black tentacles 700 GP
total 4900 GP and 56 pages.
3rd level: Protection vs. energy 375 GP - Dispel magic 375 GP - Daylight 375 GP - Shrink item 375 GP - Fly 375 GP - Water breathing 375 GP - Displacement 375 GP - Wind wall 375 GP - Halt undead 375 GP
total: 3375 GP and 54 pages.
2nd level: Fox's cunning 150 GP - Glitterdust 150 GP - Gust of wind 150 GP - Knock 150 GP- Melf's acid arrow 150 GP - Mirror image 150 GP - Misdirection 150 GP - Endurance 150 GP - Spectral hand 150 GP - Ghoul touch 150 GP - Darkvision 150 GP - Rope trick 150 GP
total: 1800 GP and 48 pages.
1st level: Grease 25 GP - Ventriloquism 25 GP - Mount 25 GP
- Tenser's floating disk 25 GP - Protection from Evil/Chaos/Law/Good 100 GP
total: 200 GP and 20 pages.

Total GP spent on spells: 2275 + 8250 + 5625 + 4900 + 3375 + 1800 + 200 = 26 275 GP
Total pages: 14 + 60 + 50 + 56 + 54 + 44 + 20 = 298 pages

Scrolls:
1st level: Alarm - Grease - Ventriloquism - Shield - Tenser's floating disk - Protection vs. evil - 2xTrue strike
25x8/2 = 100 GP
2nd level: Invisibility - Arcane lock - Glitterdust - Knock - Spectral hand - See invisiblity - Gust of wind - Melf's acid arrow (15th level caster)- Darkvision
1x2x15x25/2 + 8x2x3x25/2 +25 = 375 + 625 = 1 000 GP
3rd level: Vampiric touch (14th level caster) - Dispel magic (10th level caster) - Blink - Wind wall - Displacement
1x3x14x25/2 + 1x3x10x25/2 + 3x3x5x25/2 = 525 + 375 + 562.5 = 1 462.5 GP
4th level: Dimensional Anchor (15th level caster) - Evard's black tentacles (15th level caster) - Arcane eye -Locate creature
2x4x15x25/2 + 2x4x9x25/2 = 1500 + 900 = 2400 GP
5th level: Wall of stone - Wall of force - Major creation - False vision - Transmute rock to mud - Magic Jar
5x5x9x25/2 = 2812.5 GP
6th level: Acid fog - Mislead - True seeing - Greater dispelling (15th level caster)
3x6x11x25/2 +1x6x15x25/2 = 2475 + 1125 = 3600 GP
7th level: Project image - Forcecage - "Greater" heroism
3x7x13x25/2 + 1500 material component = 3512.5 + 1500 = 4912.5 GP

Total GP spent on scrolls: 4912.5+ 3600+ 2812.5+ 2400+ 1462.5+ 1050+ 100= 16 337.5 GP

Expensive Focuses:
Contingency - 1500 GP statuette

Expensive Material components
Forcecage - 1500 GP ruby dust (in scroll)
Permanent image - 100 GP powdered jade and fleece (used)
Programmed image - 25 GP powdered jade and fleece (used)
+4 more uses = 100 GP
Arcane lock - 25 GP gold dust (in scroll)
Magic Jar - 100 GP gem
Total GP spent 225 not in scrolls

Mundane gear:
5 GP Weathered gray/brown cloak and pointy hat 5 lbs
2 GP Old and beaten sachel bag where he keeps his scrolls and spell books. 2 lbs
1 GP Bell -
1 GP Caltrops 2 lbs *shrunk*
5 CP Candlesx5 -
4 GP scroll casesx4 2 lbs
1 CP peice of chalk -
2 GP waterskinx2 8 lbs *shrunk*
2 CP Torches x2 2lb *shrunk*
2 GP Dagger 1 lb
- Quarterstaff 4 lbs
10x10 very large bonfire *shrunk*
5 GP Spell component pouch 3lbs
Total 22.08 GP

Except for holy water it's all alchemy and 1/2 price:
25 GP Antitoxin -
25 GP Flask of holy water 3lbs *shrunk*
10 GP Smokestick 1/2lb *shrunk*
15 GP Thunderstone 1lb *shrunk*
1 GP Tindertwig -

Total 76 GP

Grand Total GP spent is then:
73 500 on magical gear
31 500 on rods
26 425 on spells
16 337.5 on scrolls
1 500 on focuses
325 on material components
22.08 on non-magical gear
76 on alchemical things
50 on familiar

149 735.58 GP

Other misceleaneous spell effects:
Contingency - If attacked or on command ("Ulstandranost") major creation as many stone statues of myself (about 6) randomly in a 10 foot area about my position.
Programmed illusions - Once the contingency triggers, make all statues within range appear to perform spellcasting gestures once a round (slight motions of the hand, movement of the lips and incantations). In addition make a few duplicates of myself that likewise perform spellcasting gestures once a round then move in a random direction and return to statue form. Make a few others that move in a random direction then perform spellcasting gestures then return to statue form.
Permanent illusion - An illusion of myself, a wrinkled hobbling wizard with a flowing white beard and peircing dark eyes.
DungeonMaster

05-20-04, 04:05 PM		Ialldor is a tall but stooped old wizard, his face is wrinkled with the passing of time but the lines are not all creases of worry - many a wry smile has been there. Known throughout the land for charity, honor and integrity he has endeavoured tirelessly to promote a society based on individual rights rather than lords and masters. Demure and pensive most of the time yet quick to anger.
Few however know of his personal efforts to obliterate pschopaths, rapists and murderers. Few ever see him in action, fewer still live to remember it.

He ventures now in the strange land of 3.5 where his wonderful familiar raven turned into a rat, his best spells are maligned and he has picked up a few odd and powerful rods. He will try his level best. :P
SuperThread

05-20-04, 09:42 PM		Can we use custom items?
UndeadPenguin

05-20-04, 11:14 PM		Quick question... whats a metamagic rod?!?
Tjaeden

05-21-04, 01:18 AM		I am certainly impressed with that wizard build! Was that a custom book you made w/CWI? I'm interested in seeing more...

*yoink* Grabbing this for my campaign - he will make a wonderful NPC and I will show him a good home :)

~~~
TaisharMalkier

05-21-04, 05:08 AM		Zug Zug.

"The SRD says that the average treasure value for an encounter at 14th level is 17k, so could we make it simple and say that my Wizard can use up to 17k, no more, of expendable gear each challenge?"

Heh. I'd assume you'd want to keep some wealth. Let's say 10k - which is an obscene amount anyways.

"Can we use custom items?"

Guess. Just to make it clear, no. No infinite CLW for 2k for you~.

Looks good Phae, I'll post the start in a sec.


Cheers
TaisharMalkier

05-21-04, 05:23 AM		Zug Zug.

Here we go.

While wandering about, telling your opinions to anyone who will listen, you pick up a disturbing rumor from an old friend of yours who now runs an inn as his adventuring days are over (despite being younger then you). Supposedly, someone has taken control of one of the largest and most populous kingdoms in the realms, Trifia, and is enforcing his rule with an iron fist. Even more disturbing, there are whispered rumors of dark sacrifices and mass killings within the kingdom. You think to yourself, what should I do?


OOC: Shrug, essentially setting up this section. Do anything special you want to do / etc. Can gather information / etc as normal.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-21-04, 09:13 AM		Hmm....
Have I been to Trifia before, what is the lay of the land (plains, mountains, underwater, etc...)?
Is there any historical precedent to this happening?
Do I suspect anyone prominent in Trifian society?
Are there any religious organisations with a similar moral bend as my own that would oppose such things?

(I completely forgot languages... I'm fluent in everything. And I didn't type out the programmed illusion correctly... last adjustment! sorry!)

Thanks Tjaeden! I played a wizard like this one before in a campaign. Different of course, he had spells like hold monster and power words for instance but the basic idea was much the same, stay invisible 99% of the time and adventure as an illusion. That and I love the "statue" spell for flavor (not so much power, but it is quite good).

Undead Penguin the metamagic rods are items that were previous to 3.5 available only in non-core material. They essentially allow you to enhance 3 spells per day of a given level with a metamagic feat. They're supremely munchy, and I'de have the more powerful versions if I wasn't limited to an item of market value no greater than 25% of my wealth. :P
Zelphi

05-21-04, 09:54 AM		I thought you weren't downgrading to 3.5?
How do you know so much?
DungeonMaster

05-21-04, 09:58 AM		I've looked very very carefully at both systems and made my choice. ;)
They both have good and bad points but in my mind at least 3rd edition has less problems than 3.5.

It took me a long while to pick up the 3rd edition books from 2nd edition. I analysed everything and the result was a resounding pro-3rd edition. I still lament the loss of flavor in 3E in general, I can only hope that 4E will reinstate some of it.
TaisharMalkier

05-21-04, 02:09 PM		Zug Zug.

Was going to post some comments, but Wizards was being weird.

Anywho...

Interesting spell selection. Statue is actually pretty good - just never noticed it before. Definately better then stoneskin, which a lot of people take (albeit much lower level).



"Languages:
Common + 3 at level 1.
Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome
14 other languages, 14 skill points
Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Goblin, Giant, Gnoll,
Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Orc, Terran, Undercommon. "

By this did you mean you put 14 skill points in, or 28 skill points? Speak Language is cross-class for everyone but bards.

"Hmm....
Have I been to Trifia before, what is the lay of the land (plains, mountains, underwater, etc...)?
Is there any historical precedent to this happening?
Do I suspect anyone prominent in Trifian society?
Are there any religious organisations with a similar moral bend as my own that would oppose such things? "

It was a long time ago, but you passed through during a quest. You remember it to be generally plains (farmland), with some forests and mountains.

You are unable to remember if anything like this has happened in the past (Knowledge: History 4 + 13 = 17).

The heir apparent to the throne was Beslen - as far as you can remember he had a decent reputation - both as a person and a warrior. There weren't any other major contenders for the throne that you were aware of. (Knowledge: Nobility 13 + 13 = 26).

The prests of Kord most align with your personal views - though it's quite likely that priests of Pelor and Heironeous aren't too happy about the takeover of Trifia. There is a small temple to Pelor in the town (Handenford) you are in (Knowledge: Religion 13 + 13 = 26).


Note: I'm using Wizard's D20 dice roller they just posted on the front page for all D20 rolls, taking average for the others.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-21-04, 07:50 PM		:embarrass I should know that too since I corrected someone just the other day on it... My skills drop by 1 in many cases and my geography is now minimal. Should be correct.

I don't have knowledge nobility but it's good to know about Belsen. :D

I will make my way to the nearest temple of Kord and ask them whether they've heard the news and are acting upon it. I walk there slowly, taking my good time to get there and trying my best not to make too much noise and remain hidden with my invisibility (spot DC: 36 + distance, listen a meager DC:16 + distance). My illusory duplicate is about 20 feet ahead of me hobbling about the same speed forward on his staff.

Does that roller store the results somewhere? If not use whatever you like. I trust you, you don't have any reason to cheat!
TaisharMalkier

05-22-04, 12:27 AM		Zug Zug.

Punk =P. I just assumed you had all knowledges, rofl. We'll pretend your friend told you that or something lol.

You ask your friend - the nearest temple to Kord is to the northwest, in a largish town named Slon. You arrive at the temple without incident. The first person you talk to has heard of you and ushers you to the head priest of the temple. He informs you that he has heard of the news and is quite distressed by it, but is in no position to act. He has informed the other temples - the general consensus they have is to wait a while and see if the rumors are confirmed. He tells you that even if they are, actions are unlikely - temples as a rule do not get involved with matters of state - and that's what they view this as.

"Does that roller store the results somewhere? If not use whatever you like. I trust you, you don't have any reason to cheat!"

Nope, don't think it does. Regardless, I trust you not to just look up the exact stats of what you're fighting. Cheating would just make the whole thing idiotic.


Cheers
Megrim_Lord

05-22-04, 11:30 AM		all a 14th level Wizard needs is Boccob's Blessed Book, then he basically carries every spell on his list in his book, and without scribing costs!

I can't remember right now, but I believe the 3.5 version has like 1000 pages or something
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek

05-22-04, 12:06 PM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
Ialldor - an old human mage past his prime
Alignment - Chaotic Good

Stats:
15,14,13,12,10,8

Str 5 (base 8 -3 age ) -3 modifier (light load 15 lbs, max 50 lbs)
Dex 7 (base 10 -3 age) -2 modifier
Con 14 (base 13 -3 age + 4 item) +2 modifier
Int 26 (base 15 +2 age +3 levels +6 item) +8 modifier
Wis 16 (base 14 +2 age) +3 modifier
Cha 14 (base 12 +2 age) +2 modifier

Hp: 66.5 = 4 + 13x2.5 + 15x2

AC: 12 = 10 base + 4 armor (spell) - 2 dex

Saves: +13/+7/+17
Base: +4/+4/+9
w ability scores: +6/+2/+12 then +5 resistance +2 fort from familiar (rat)

Skills:
Base 2+1 race+3 from int until level 4 then 2+1+4 and at level 12 it becomes 2+1+5
Thus 6x4+6x2+7x8+8x3 = 116 skill points
+15 Concentration 13 ranks
+12 Alchemy 4 ranks
+12 Spellcraft 4 ranks
+12 Craft(sculpting) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(arcana) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge("dungeoneering") 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(nature) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(religion) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(the planes) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(history) 4 ranks
+12 Knowledge(local) 4 ranks
+10 Knowledge(geography) 2 ranks
+6 Move silently 8 ranks
+6 Hide 8 ranks
+9 Decipher script 1 ranks

Languages:
Common + 3 at level 1.
Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome
14 other languages, 28 skill points
Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Goblin, Giant, Gnoll,
Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Orc, Terran, Undercommon.


Gear:
18 000 +6 headband of intellect fox's cunning
8 000 +4 amulet of health endurance
15 000 orange ioun stone
12 500 +5 cloak of resistance resistance
6 250 Boccob's blessed book secret page
2 000 Ring of counterspells (greater dispel magic)
10 000 Ring of invisibility
1 750 Dust of dissapearance

73 500 GP on magical gear

14 000 2x metamagic rod of maximize lesser
17 500 1x metamagic rod of quicken, lesser

31 500 GP of rods

Feats: 8 total = 5 base + 1 human + 2 bonus wizard class
Craft wondrous item 5th level bonus feat
Craft rod 10th level bonus feat
Empower spell 1st
Maximize spell 3rd
Quicken spell 9th
Spell penetration 1st
Greater spell penetration 6th
Forge ring 12th

Spells per day:
Base:
4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2
Bonus:
0/2/2/2/2/1/1/1
Total:
4/6/6/6/6/4/4/3

Level 7: Statue (cast) - Limited wish x2
Level 6: Repulsion - Flesh to stone - Max lighting bolt - Emp enervation
Level 5: Cone of cold - 1xEmp fireball - 2xEmp lightning bolt
Level 4: Polymorph - Detect scrying (cast) - Confusion - Dimension door - Wall of fire
Level 3: Emp magic missile - Daylight - Fly - Fireball - Lightning bolt - Halt undead
Level 2: Web - Mirror Image - Misdirection (cast) - Melf's acid arrow - Darkvision (cast) - Ghoul touch
Level 1: Mage armor (cast) - Magic-missile - Feather fall - Unseen servant (cast) - Shield - True strike
Level 0: Detect magic - Detect poison - Prestidigitation - Dancing lights

Spell books:
Ialldor's scrible-pad of spell research:
7th level: Forcecage - Statue - Limited wish - Project image
6th level: Contingency - True seeing - Programmed image - Permanent image
5th level: Teleport - Transmute rock to mud - Persistant image - Magic jar
4th level: Enervation - Arcane eye - Detect scrying - Scrying
3rd level: Secret page - Blink - Fireball - Lightning bolt - Vampiric touch
2nd level: Arcane lock - Web - See invisibility - Invisibility
1st level: Identify - Magic missile - Ventriloquism - Shield - Unseen servant - Sleep - Feather fall - Mage armor - Alarm
(I get 3 + int modifier for free at 1st level which was only +4 back then... so 7 free + 2 from second level = 9 free)
Oth level: All

Ialldor's 1000 pages of blessed book:
7th level: "Greater" heroism 2275 GP
total 2275 GP and 14 pages.
6th level: Greater dispelling 1650 GP - Repulsion 1650 GP - Acid fog 1650 GP - Mislead 1650 GP - Flesh to Stone 1650 GP
total: 8250 GP and 60 pages.
5th level: Wall of force 1125 GP - Wall of stone 1125 GP - Major Creation 1125 GP - Cone of cold 1125 GP - False vision 1125 GP
total: 5625 GP and 50 pages.
4th level: Polymorph self 700 GP - Wall of fire 700 GP - Dimension door 700 GP - Confusion 700 GP - Locate creature 700 GP - Dimensional Anchor 700 GP - Evard's black tentacles 700 GP
total 4900 GP and 56 pages.
3rd level: Protection vs. energy 375 GP - Dispel magic 375 GP - Daylight 375 GP - Shrink item 375 GP - Fly 375 GP - Water breathing 375 GP - Displacement 375 GP - Wind wall 375 GP - Halt undead 375 GP
total: 3375 GP and 54 pages.
2nd level: Fox's cunning 150 GP - Glitterdust 150 GP - Gust of wind 150 GP - Knock 150 GP- Melf's acid arrow 150 GP - Mirror image 150 GP - Misdirection 150 GP - Endurance 150 GP - Spectral hand 150 GP - Ghoul touch 150 GP - Darkvision 150 GP
total: 1650 GP and 44 pages.
1st level: Grease 25 GP - Ventriloquism 25 GP - Mount 25 GP
- Tenser's floating disk 25 GP - Protection from Evil/Chaos/Law/Good 100 GP
total: 200 GP and 20 pages.

Total GP spent on spells: 2275 + 8250 + 5625 + 4900 + 3375 + 1650 + 200 = 26 275 GP
Total pages: 14 + 60 + 50 + 56 + 54 + 44 + 20 = 298 pages

Scrolls:
1st level: Alarm - Grease - Ventriloquism - Shield - Tenser's floating disk - Protection vs. evil - 2xTrue strike
25x8/2 = 100 GP
2nd level: Invisibility - Arcane lock - Glitterdust - Knock - Spectral hand - See invisiblity - Gust of wind - Melf's acid arrow (15th level caster)- Darkvision
1x2x15x25/2 + 8x2x3x25/2 +25 = 375 + 625 = 1 000 GP
3rd level: Vampiric touch (14th level caster) - Dispel magic (10th level caster) - Blink - Wind wall - Displacement
1x3x14x25/2 + 1x3x10x25/2 + 3x3x5x25/2 = 525 + 375 + 562.5 = 1 462.5 GP
4th level: Dimensional Anchor (15th level caster) - Evard's black tentacles (15th level caster) - Arcane eye -Locate creature
2x4x15x25/2 + 2x4x9x25/2 = 1500 + 900 = 2400 GP
5th level: Wall of stone - Wall of force - Major creation - False vision - Transmute rock to mud - Magic Jar
6x5x9x25/2 = 3375 GP
6th level: Acid fog - Mislead - True seeing - Greater dispelling (15th level caster)
3x6x11x25/2 +1x6x15x25/2 = 2475 + 1125 = 3600 GP
7th level: Project image - Forcecage - "Greater" heroism
3x7x13x25/2 + 1500 material component = 3512.5 + 1500 = 4912.5 GP

Total GP spent on scrolls: 4912.5+ 3600+ 3375+ 2400+ 1462.5+ 1050+ 100= 16 900 GP

Expensive Focuses:
Contingency - 1500 GP statuette

Expensive Material components
Forcecage - 1500 GP ruby dust (in scroll)
Permanent image - 100 GP powdered jade and fleece (used)
Programmed image - 25 GP powdered jade and fleece (used)
Arcane lock - 25 GP gold dust (in scroll)
Magic Jar - 100 GP gem
Total GP spent 225 not in scrolls

Mundane gear:
5 GP Weathered gray/brown cloak and pointy hat 5 lbs
2 GP Old and beaten sachel bag where he keeps his scrolls and spell books. 2 lbs
1 GP Bell -
1 GP Caltrops 2 lbs *shrunk*
5 CP Candlesx5 -
4 GP scroll casesx4 2 lbs
1 CP peice of chalk -
2 GP waterskinx2 8 lbs *shrunk*
2 CP Torches x2 2lb *shrunk*
2 GP Dagger 1 lb
- Quarterstaff 4 lbs
10x10 very large bonfire *shrunk*
5 GP Spell component pouch 3lbs
Total 22.08 GP

Except for holy water it's all alchemy and 1/2 price:
25 GP Antitoxin -
25 GP Flask of holy water 3lbs *shrunk*
10 GP Smokestick 1/2lb *shrunk*
15 GP Thunderstone 1lb *shrunk*
1 GP Tindertwig -

Total 76 GP

Grand Total GP spent is then:
73 500 on magical gear
31 500 on rods
26 275 on spells
16 900 on scrolls
1 500 on focuses
225 on material components
22.08 on non-magical gear
76 on alchemical things

149 998.08 GP

Other misceleaneous spell effects:
Contingency - If attacked or on command ("Ulstandranost") major creation as many stone statues of myself (about 6) randomly in a 10 foot area about my position.
Programmed illusions - Once the contingency triggers, make all statues within range appear to perform spellcasting gestures once a round (slight motions of the hand, movement of the lips and incantations). In addition make a few duplicates of myself that likewise perform spellcasting gestures once a round then move in a random direction and return to statue form. Make a few others that move in a random direction then perform spellcasting gestures then return to statue form.
Permanent illusion - An illusion of myself, a wrinkled hobbling wizard with a flowing white beard and peircing dark eyes.


Very nice character DM. Very nice. The good old classic Wizard.
DungeonMaster

05-22-04, 04:24 PM		I'll say to the high priest in a low monotone voice: "Those who suffer cannot take such a distanced approach to their suffering. It would be a better world if more knew how to look into the eyes of their fellow man and see themselves looking back."
And bid my leave.
I'll then wander towards Trifia and gather information along the way.


As for the monsters, I won't look things up but Ialldor does have quite good knowledge skills so I'll ask you what Ialldor knows. I unfortunately know off-hand essentially every monster in the core books under 3rd edition, almost all their stats, their abilities, everything. :P It's never been a difficulty before, I'll just ask you what my character knows and work from there.

Thank you XunValDorl! I debated playing some munchkinized abomination for awhile but in the end I decided to play my archetype and see how far it gets.
TaisharMalkier

05-23-04, 03:55 PM		Zug Zug.

"I'll say to the high priest in a low monotone voice: "Those who suffer cannot take such a distanced approach to their suffering. It would be a better world if more knew how to look into the eyes of their fellow man and see themselves looking back.""

Before you leave, the priest says "the temples in Trifia have not yet been bothered - we have concern for our brethren".

"As for the monsters, I won't look things up but Ialldor does have quite good knowledge skills so I'll ask you what Ialldor knows. I unfortunately know off-hand essentially every monster in the core books under 3rd edition, almost all their stats, their abilities, everything. It's never been a difficulty before, I'll just ask you what my character knows and work from there. "

I go with the rules in the PHB concerning knowledge skills and monsters (which is DC 10 + HD to have heard of it, every 5 you beat the DC by you get a piece of info). The nice thing is if you assume monster info, you might get caught up in the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 =D.

You wander towards Trifia for several weeks, asking people on the way if they know anything - no1 you encounter has any knowledge you haven't heard yet. Then you die from lack of food (lol). =D

Anyways, we'll pretend you have food (limited wish to create food?....) - you encounter a merchant who says he has come from Trifia. When you ask him about Trifia, you can tell he's obviously frightened, and says that everything is great there, and so is the new leader.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-24-04, 10:03 PM		Sorry about the delay... Victoria day here.

Ok! I talk to the merchant some more, I ask specifically for the name of the "new leader" and see if I recognise that name. I'll also ask him if he's heard of any abuses, murder or sacrifice and carefully observe his reactions to those words.
As a player, even with very powerful spells I prefer the mundane approach first and so I'll just keep advancing into the kingdom before I contact outer planes to ask a few questions...



Then you die from lack of food

:P I think Ialldor would use his little amount of charisma and offer to any tavern keep an evening of magically spiced food (prestidigitation) for a meal or two.
Barring that I'll find a few berries and cast goodberry on them with limited wish but that's really overkill. ;)

Those knowledge rules are completely whacked. :uh-huh: You basically have never heard of the Tarrasque - ever. On average even with max-ranks in an knowledge skill I will know at best one or two abilities of a single monster of my HD! Oh well... work with.
Varrik

05-25-04, 11:49 PM		Is this un-vented role-playing energy? or is this a CHALLENGE?

Get to the fighting already, or take it to an online rpg site.

Bore-ing.

And, as yet, not enlightening about 3.5 versus 3.0 wizards.
TaisharMalkier

05-26-04, 04:48 AM		Zug Zug.

"Is this un-vented role-playing energy? or is this a CHALLENGE?

Get to the fighting already, or take it to an online rpg site."

Wonder what type of game D&D is - perhaps a ROLEPLAYING game?

This is a challenge, but it makes me feel a lot better to step up some type of story first. Then I can throw challenges at him till his ears bleed.

The leader's name has not been mentioned - he is either refered to as "The Leader" (ala simpsons) or the one whos name must not be named.

About a couple days away from Trifia you are aware of an attempt to scry you.

About a day later while traveling, you hear a rumbling on the road and a second later, 120 feet away from you (far in the distance, just around a curve) you see three huge creatures - these creatures look like enormous spiders, standing twice as tall as a human, its forelegs end in massive cleavers. Four bulbous eyes, a malevolent gleam in each one, rise out of their carapaces.

They win iniative.

They all move 100 feet towards you, then shoot rays at your location out of their eyes. After the first one is shot towards you - your contingency pops - statues randomly appear 10' around you, etc - the remaining 2 shoot at your actual location as well.

The first one - ranged touch 9 + 8 = 17 (your touch is 8). 50% miss chance for concealment for not being able to see you (high hits, low misses) 75, your reflex save you roll a 7 + 7 = 14, and take 12D6 = 42 - 8 (hardness) = 34 points of fire damage.

The second one - ranged touch 5 + 8 = 13. 50% miss chance 21, and it misses you.

The third one - ranged touch 10 + 8 = 18. 50% miss chance, your reflex save you roll a 17 + 7 = 24, and take 12D6 = 42/2 - 8 = 13 points of fire damage.

You recognize the creatures attacking you as Retrievers (Knowledge: Arcana 9 + 12 = 21).

You've taken a total of 47 damage out of 67, and you have three Retrievers 20 feet away from you. What do you do?


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-26-04, 11:29 AM		Hm... I had that detect scrying spell up precisely to use my scroll of False Vision. I would make an image of someone who looks very different than myself appear perched atop a rickety stone pedestal over a volcano intoning something. That person would then turn towards the sensor and swear holy revenge and destruction to the viewer for intruding on his privacy.

Either way, unless the SRD is completely wrong the ring of invisibility is not limited to 3/day. I would be very disenheartened to hear that it was, as it is a constant of one of the most powerful works of fantasy namely the LOTR!

I don't know if that's a house-rule that harkens back to 2E high constitution warriors but you can definitely roll a 1 on your hp. :P

Out of character I know precisely what these things are, but in character how much do I know?
Where am I? On a plain, in a forest, or ...? How did they sneak up on me?
I'm pretty sure 3.5 removed standard encounter distances so I guess anything can happen.

If they're ignoring my illusions I'll dimension door 600 feet away on my turn.
Draco Argentum

05-27-04, 12:09 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Wonder what type of game D&D is - perhaps a ROLEPLAYING game?

The WizOs have been know to lock RP threads that aren't on the RP section of the boards. If this one gets locked then we don't learn anything.
Varrik

05-27-04, 02:49 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

"Is this un-vented role-playing energy? or is this a CHALLENGE?

Get to the fighting already, or take it to an online rpg site."

Wonder what type of game D&D is - perhaps a ROLEPLAYING game?



Course it is, you are completely right. And in RL, er, RL D&D, I would agree with you 110%.

But as is pointed out by my esteemed colleague, Draco. That is not what this forum is about, nor the challenge. If you want to change the name to "Gather Info" Challenge, then I couldn't say a thing.

But anyway, moot point, since the battle has commenced.

Sidenote: What does "Zug Zug" mean?
Sylvain

05-27-04, 03:10 AM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
I've looked very very carefully at both systems and made my choice. ;)
They both have good and bad points but in my mind at least 3rd edition has less problems than 3.5.

It took me a long while to pick up the 3rd edition books from 2nd edition. I analysed everything and the result was a resounding pro-3rd edition. I still lament the loss of flavor in 3E in general, I can only hope that 4E will reinstate some of it.
Sorry to interrupt but I just wanted to say that I totally agree. There's little else that needs to be said. I personally think Wizards has sort of trampled the foundation of the game by choosing balance over realism or fun, especially by 'nerfing' the spellcasters. Sweet character and I commend you on your bravery in tackling this thread. :D :thumbsup:
fractal

05-27-04, 03:49 AM		Originally posted by Varrik
Sidenote: What does "Zug Zug" mean?
It's a quote from Warcraft, it's an orc phrase that indicates agreement I think.
TaisharMalkier

05-27-04, 04:23 AM		Zug Zug.

"Hm... I had that detect scrying spell up precisely to use my scroll of False Vision. I would make an image of someone who looks very different than myself appear perched atop a rickety stone pedestal over a volcano intoning something. That person would then turn towards the sensor and swear holy revenge and destruction to the viewer for intruding on his privacy.

Either way, unless the SRD is completely wrong the ring of invisibility is not limited to 3/day. I would be very disenheartened to hear that it was, as it is a constant of one of the most powerful works of fantasy namely the LOTR!

I don't know if that's a house-rule that harkens back to 2E high constitution warriors but you can definitely roll a 1 on your hp.

Out of character I know precisely what these things are, but in character how much do I know?
Where am I? On a plain, in a forest, or ...? How did they sneak up on me?
I'm pretty sure 3.5 removed standard encounter distances so I guess anything can happen.

If they're ignoring my illusions I'll dimension door 600 feet away on my turn."

False Vision only works if cast previously to the scrying attempt.

SRD says as many times as you want - I checked the DMG, heh - as many times as you want is fine. Just offhand, were you just recasting it every 3 minutes from the ring?

Houserule. My bad.

You know their names. Dat's it.

Your on a plain - the came down the road, around a curve from a hill. I rolled to see when you'd hear them/see them from. They started 120' away and won iniative.

You dimensional door 600 feet away, popping your invis (I'll say back the way you came). What do you do?


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-27-04, 10:28 AM		Hmm... My detect scrying spell should warn me before-hand of any attempt to scry on me (there's also a will save to scrying in 3.5 right?). I should be able to get off false-vision before hand. Regardless, let's work with where we're at. Next encounter I'll change False vision then for something more useful because that's really it's only purpose.

No problem, I got caught a couple of times with houserules in the previous thread as well. :P

Are there more hills nearby?

The ring is command word activated, and I do whisper the command word every 3 minutes or so.
Dimension door does not pop my invisibility. It would need to be an offensive action.
How are the creatures behaving? They get to go before I do. How far are they seperated?

Not knowing anything about these critters (or anything else..) let's see if they can fly! I cast fly and move straight up 30 feet.
DungeonMaster

05-27-04, 11:15 AM		Double post...
TaisharMalkier

05-28-04, 12:59 AM		Zug Zug.

"Hmm... My detect scrying spell should warn me before-hand of any attempt to scry on me (there's also a will save to scrying in 3.5 right?). I should be able to get off false-vision before hand. Regardless, let's work with where we're at. Next encounter I'll change False vision then for something more useful because that's really it's only purpose. "

It alerts you at the exact moment of scrying and false vision needs to be up before the scrying actually happens. You do indeed get a will save - anything that you'd roll that you most likely would not realize in character I'll roll it but not share the results =p.

"Dimension door does not pop my invisibility. It would need to be an offensive action. "

In my defense, I was tired.

"Are there more hills nearby?"

Yep. Region is fairly hilly. Closest one would be further back the way you came, maybe 20 feet, west of the road (the road being fairly straight at this point).

You cast fly, and fly up 30'.

You see the creatures roughly 200' away from you. They are spaced roughly 10' apart, in a line (not a line towards you, but perpindicular). They are running right for you.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-28-04, 11:24 AM		I thought it alerts you of any scrying attempt, so on the round they begin to cast scry (1 hour) I know they're scrying on me and can get it off. No worries, your interpretation and I won't argue, I'll just ditch false vision then for the next round.
(Greater scrying is 1 action, so false vision may not be fast enough. I'm just being a nit-pick. On with the show!)

No problem about invisibility! Can I ask why they're now 200 feet away from me? We should probably break this up into rounds like last time:

Round1: They appear 120 feet away, move 100 feet (that's real fast to move and attack!) and shoot me from 20 feet - I DD 600 feet away. (620 feet between us now)
Round2: They? - I cast fly and move 30 feet up.
Round3: They? - I move 60 feet up.

If all they do is run at me (and don't take off!) I'm going to keep moving up to about 300 feet altitude.

I'm havn't looked at the 3.5 retreiver but I do know off the top of my head that the 3rd edition one had the ability to discern location as a spell like ability and that that spell like abilities in 3rd edition at least typically take an action to use. Discern location is an instantaneous spell as well and thus doesn't continually update the location of what you're after.
TaisharMalkier

05-29-04, 02:18 AM		Zug Zug.

"I thought it alerts you of any scrying attempt, so on the round they begin to cast scry (1 hour) I know they're scrying on me and can get it off. No worries, your interpretation and I won't argue, I'll just ditch false vision then for the next round.
(Greater scrying is 1 action, so false vision may not be fast enough. I'm just being a nit-pick. On with the show!)"

Not that you know this, but it was greater scrying. Also, if it was scrying, it would be arguable if the spell didnt start untill the casting time is finished - after all, a fireball dosent start appearing till after you finish casting - otherwise, if you got interrupted halfway you'd end up with half a fireball.

"Round1: They appear 120 feet away, move 100 feet (that's real fast to move and attack!) and shoot me from 20 feet - I DD 600 feet away. (620 feet between us now)
Round2: They? - I cast fly and move 30 feet up.
Round3: They? - I move 60 feet up.

If all they do is run at me (and don't take off!) I'm going to keep moving up to about 300 feet altitude.

I'm havn't looked at the 3.5 retreiver but I do know off the top of my head that the 3rd edition one had the ability to discern location as a spell like ability and that that spell like abilities in 3rd edition at least typically take an action to use. Discern location is an instantaneous spell as well and thus doesn't continually update the location of what you're after."

They are guided as if by discern location. It's not an action (even a free action) simply constant.

That round structure is correct. You have 60' manueverability (nice spelling there), and move at half upwards - you double move 60' up to a total of 90' in the air.

On their turn, they run 200' towards you (90' under you, 20' away from directly under you) and shoot eye rays at you!

The first one - ranged touch 1 + 8 = 179 (your touch is 8). Misses!

The second one - ranged touch 19 + 8 = 27. 50% miss chance 13, and it misses you.

The third one - ranged touch 9 + 8 = 17. 50% miss chance 9, and it misses you.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-31-04, 12:10 PM		Hm... in character Ialldor realises from their behaviour that they likely can't hit him from great range - he's going to tempt fate again and fly up 60 more feet.
So flying now at 150 feet what are they doing?


I still havn't looked at the 3.5 retreiver entry though I'm itching to! They can double move and attack with rays?!

If the disern location ability is a Su ability in 3.5, no problem, I understand fully. If it's Sp then they have to cast the spell - it follows all guidelines of spells except it doesn't cost XP, materials, etc...
TaisharMalkier

05-31-04, 03:05 PM		Zug Zug.

"Hm... in character Ialldor realises from their behaviour that they likely can't hit him from great range - he's going to tempt fate again and fly up 60 more feet.
So flying now at 150 feet what are they doing?


I still havn't looked at the 3.5 retreiver entry though I'm itching to! They can double move and attack with rays?!

If the disern location ability is a Su ability in 3.5, no problem, I understand fully. If it's Sp then they have to cast the spell - it follows all guidelines of spells except it doesn't cost XP, materials, etc..."

The Retrievers run 200 feet towards Trifia. They are 220 feet away from your location (the spot on the ground under you) and 150 feet under you.

Free actions.

I'm not certain what the ability is (IDHTBWM) but it specifically says they are guided as if by Discern Location - not that they have to cast it. Shrug.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

05-31-04, 03:28 PM		Hmm... They may be smart in 3.5...

I'll pull out one of my rods o' maximize spell and launch a maximized empowered fireball at the central one, that should clip them all for 45-90 damage.

Since they're running straight back towards Trifia they're likely going to cross through the patch of statues - at which point I'll web them, anchoring the web to the statues. At their speed how many rounds till they hit the statues? I'm probably going to need to limited wish a dimension door to above them.
Thermanshs

05-31-04, 04:53 PM		something I noticed before...
the mage saw them from 120 ft away?what weird type of terrain is it?a noisy forest?you know if it was a plain field he could spot them from one mile away...also...you forgot to apply the -1 per 10 feet at spot and listen checks....the attack was rather unreal....
DungeonMaster

05-31-04, 05:03 PM		They came from around a hill as said above. I don't think 3.5 has standard encounter distances in the DMG like 3rd edition had so my spot check is really irrelevant, it's really up to the DM. I think Taishar's being reasonable with them, of course I've been avoiding looking at the monster stats and instead sort of working from memory of 3rd edition for fun. :P

My inkling is the 3.5 monster is typically much weaker than the 3rd edition monster but probably has a pile more hp and better saves. I know for a fact they removed many of the nasty things that made demons and devils really tough before.
If they made that a Su instead of Sp then they did get better in that sense at least. We'll see!
:D
Thermanshs

05-31-04, 05:33 PM		they weakened fiends in 3,5?!?!?!:eek: please check them again....
and I didn't talk about encounter distances...I'm talking about common sense...3 6000 pound mindless constructs unnoticed poping out of nowhere just makes no sense...anyway...let's see what follows next...
DungeonMaster

05-31-04, 07:22 PM		I don't think that's the point of thread (though of course tangentially related) but compare for instance a 3rd edition pit-fiend to a 3.5 pitfiend.
The "statistics" (attack bonus etc...) are basically identical if you account for the change in CR by advancing the Pit-fiend (the 3rd edition one comes out better overall).
What the 3.5 pit-fiend gained: Mass hold monster, persistant image, power word stun, greater dispel magic.
What the 3.5 pit-fiend lost (in order of power in my opinion): symbol, unhallow (+osyluth = dimensional anchor), improved invisibility, wall of fire, polymorph self, pyrotechnics, suggestion, desecrate, charm person.
It had hold person, dispel magic and major image which are of course not as good as the 3.5 spells but similar.
It's regeneration is now weaker as well, you needed a +3 holy weapon.

There are other things that you can't "rate" on a per-shot basis like meteor swarm 3.5 sucking, even 15 energy resistance (counted blow by blow in 3.5) makes it do piddly damage assuming they hit (1/20 chance of missing regardless of AC) and the power-words are now enchantments (mind-blank foils them as does polymorphing or wildshaping into a plant).

We could talk about it more, perhaps by PM or in another thread but as a DM I think it won some, the DC are higher and it's got a nifty quickened fireball, and lost more, no way of protecting itself via symbols and unhallow in particular.
I would prefer the 3.5 pit-fiend playing kick down the door D&D but in campaign I would definitely prefer the 3rd edition pitfiend. They're actually very different monsters.

I think that's what we're here to see in some ways. How things changed going from 3 to 3.5 in a practical sense.
TaisharMalkier

06-01-04, 03:09 AM		Zug Zug.

"Hmm... They may be smart in 3.5...

I'll pull out one of my rods o' maximize spell and launch a maximized empowered fireball at the central one, that should clip them all for 45-90 damage.

Since they're running straight back towards Trifia they're likely going to cross through the patch of statues - at which point I'll web them, anchoring the web to the statues. At their speed how many rounds till they hit the statues? I'm probably going to need to limited wish a dimension door to above them."

We'll cut out some unimportant stuff. You win. You follow them along / dimension door along with them, and fireball/whatever them down. Basically there only chance was kill you before you could get out of range, and the invisibility and some hideous luck cut it out for em.

Your expendables are replenished, etc. You want to do anything else before you procede?


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-01-04, 11:05 AM		Really?! Victory?!

:bounce:

I thought I was meat there for a second. Without any real knowledge of the creatures in character I couldn't justify merely dimension-door 600 feet up + feather fall in round 1.

They really changed the retreiver now that I'm looking at it's SRD entry. It's gotten bigger, more Hp, better saves and so forth, raw statistics increase.
But the nasty regeneration is gone! Replaced by fast healing!
The eye-rays are different as well. They used to be able to shoot 2 at a time - quite brutal (and would likely have been the death of me!). Now they can move and attack along with one ray which is pretty good all in all, probably not as good as being able to fire 2 in a round though.
The rays ALL have saves associated with them though! The fire ray affects only one target in 3.5! It hits everything in a 5-foot area about the target in 3rd edition.
The find target is still spell-like so they would need to cast it again to find me if they can't see me.

All in all I think they should have brought them down in CR not up. I'de peg them at CR 9.

I would only be able to hit two at a time with the fireball because of the 3.5 facing increase though. I probably still have more than enough firepower to take them down easily with 6 blasts of maximized through rod spells.

Ok! On with the show! I'm going to remove false vision and place contact other plane in it's stead. I'll cash my false vision scroll for extra material components and the rope trick spell. I realise I didn't pay the 50 GP for my familiar way back at level 1. :P
I'm rather perturbed about being attacked by demons on a bright sunny field and someone somewhere is going to pay for that.

I'll adjust his sheet later today.
DungeonMaster

06-01-04, 11:12 AM		Double post... slow today... sigh...
DungeonMaster

06-02-04, 02:34 PM		He's fully updated.
Thermanshs

06-02-04, 04:26 PM		VICTORY!:king:
good job master!check your pm's
TaisharMalkier

06-04-04, 01:58 AM		Zug Zug.

I forgot to ask. What are you doing at night?


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-04-04, 10:47 AM		I will spend the night in a rope trick, and have my familiar keep watch at the opening. I would probably also alarm the interior of the rope trick spell with a mental ping to wake me up if anything escapes my familiar's sight and manages to crawl in here with me.
TaisharMalkier

06-05-04, 01:28 AM		Zug Zug.

The night passes uneventfully. In the morning, after about four hours of walking, someone attempts to scry you.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-06-04, 07:44 PM		Well seeing as the only real defence against scrying at this level, false vision, is useless I guess all I will do is continue hiding as usual with my hide check of +36 and not move to make any noise. I'll ready a spell if I or my familiar hear or see anything.
TaisharMalkier

06-10-04, 05:15 AM		Zug Zug.

Some seconds later, a large creature that looks like a tall, bipedal insect, with clawed hands and feet, powerful mandibles, and a long thick tail covered in razor-sharp spikes and three fierce, beautiful women with statuesque builds and flawless skin, large feathery wings, red glowing eyes, with longswords and shining red bows bows strapped across their back appear next to your image (20' away from you). They immediately look at you, and you have the feeling they know who they appeared next to is illusion.

You don't recognize the large creature (Knowledge: The Planes 11+12 = 23), you recognize the medium women as (Knowledge: The Planes 7+12 = 19) as Erinyes, a devil. You're willing to go out on a limb and bet the large one is a devil as well.


Initiative:
Ialldor 9 - 2 = 7
Devils 5 + 5 = 10

The large creature moves 15' over to you (AKA 10' away for him, 5' for you) his terrifying presence might scare those who are not pure of heart, but holds no no influence on you (Will Save: 20 + 17 = 37). A cone of cold rolls over you (Reflex 6 + 7 = 13), seeming freezing your very lifeblood (Damage 13D6 = 45.5 - 8 Hardness = 37.5). Your contingency goes off, placing statues randomly within 10' (I can't believe I actually need to figure out where they go...sigh). They appear in an almost protective position, as if they gods themselves are trying to protect you.

Diagram (z devil, x empty, o you, s statue):
xzzxx
sxssx
xxoxs
sxxxx
xxxxs

The Erinyes both fly 25' straight up in the air and shoot at you! The first one hits you easilly (15+14 = 29) and deals (8+6 = 13 - 8 = 6) 6 damage to you through your stone skin ^_~ - the arrow is slightly warm. The second one pegs you as well, another arrow lodging in beside the first (13+14 = 27) and deals (4+6 = 10 - 8 = 2) 2 damage to you. The third one lands another arrow (10+14 = 24) and deals (5+6 = 11 - 8 = 3) 3 points of damage.

You have taken a total of 48.5 damage out of 66.5. See the diagram above to see exactly where everyone is - the erinyes are 10 feet past the diagram, 25 feet in the air.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-10-04, 10:49 AM		Taishar! You're alive! I thought you dissapeared for a while there...

I presume from your text that I see them right? Not to interupt too much the flow of the thread but don't I get my readied spell first? Othewise I'm not going to bother even with detect scrying! :P
TaisharMalkier

06-10-04, 01:08 PM		Zug Zug.

"I'll ready a spell if I or my familiar hear or see anything."

I gather this as meaning that if my familiar or I see anything, I'll ready a spell. You actually need to say which spell you are readying if you are, and exactly what you want it to do - readied actions happen in split seconds, so need to be thought out ahead of time. I imagine it like a guy says to himself "the next orc that passes through that door I'm going to shoot", so it happens as soon as it could.

What spell would you have readied?

Thought I been checking this thread fairly regulairly (and that I posted last ;p). Shrug. Musta missed your post or something.



Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-10-04, 01:34 PM		I don't think you can technically "ready" a "readied action".
That would be like: I see something - I ready a spell - my readied action goes off on my readying a spell - blamo!
:P

I clearly meant to cast a spell as soon as I saw something.

I would dimension door some 600 feet away with the readied spell.

Does it say in 3.5 that you have to specifiy the spell you're going to cast? All you needed to do in 3rd edition was specify the action - cast a spell, attack, etc...
The example they use a specific spell is readied, but I don't think the rules state it must be specific. Hrm...

Of course, if it makes things simpler we can just work with the current circumstances of them just dropping on my silly old wizard and I'll word my readied action more carefully next time. No hard feelings, it's all a game.
In that case I dimension door 600 feet away (am I currently threatened? casting defensively in that case).
Thermanshs

06-10-04, 01:50 PM		Does it say in 3.5 that you have to specifiy the spell you're going to cast?
No it doesn't...otherwise counterspelling would worth almost zero and there would be NO point picking the feat improved counterspell...
Mutu

06-10-04, 02:25 PM		for the Zug Zug while it most recently showed up in Warcraft, they got it from the old movie "cavemen" that stared Ringo Star... the phrase "zug zug" in caveman means (trying to keep it clean) basicly for two people to "show their affection" for each other, and if you dont know what that means, then I phrased it correctly :)

However on topic, I am absolutly loving this thread...
TaisharMalkier

06-11-04, 02:53 PM		Zug Zug.

"Does it say in 3.5 that you have to specifiy the spell you're going to cast? All you needed to do in 3rd edition was specify the action - cast a spell, attack, etc...
The example they use a specific spell is readied, but I don't think the rules state it must be specific. Hrm... "

I guess it depends on how you interpet it. I interpet it as you have to ready a specific standard action - which includes picking a spell, and picking everything that needs to be done with a spell (like where you're going with teleport). It seems unrealisitic to me that you could choose which spell you are going to cast, and what it's doing in the space of a readied action, which happens PREVIOUS to the action that triggers it. Namely, it happens in a split second - how are you deciding what spell to cast, and casting it, in a split second?

If you want to ready a spell, you need to ready a specific spell, and declare the target/etc. I think the reason they use a specific spell as an example is because it has to be one.

Ready an action to counterspell isn't the same as casting a spell.

"I don't think you can technically "ready" a "readied action"."

That's not what I meant. I thought it meant that if you saw something around, you'd ready an action if they did something else.

You defensively Dimensional Door (no chance of failure) 600' away - I'll assume back the way you came. The terrain now is about the same as it was before you DDed - gently hilled plains.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-11-04, 03:03 PM		We run with your interpretation, you're the DM in this one!
I'm not interested in arguing, it really comes down to interpretation. I allow any readied spell so long as the component is at hand, readied partial charges with only the attack action and so forth. I've never read the rules that way but that's all part of the game, each DM interprets things slightly differently.

I'll heal myself using one of my limited wish spells to cure critical wounds.
What do they do?

Also what color are these creatures?
TaisharMalkier

06-12-04, 12:02 AM		Zug Zug.

You heal yourself for 4D8+14 (32) points of damage. You've taken 16.5 out of 66.5.

The Erinyes and the larger devil circle around, looking in all directions. They are about 600' away, 50' off the ground.

The Erinyes are a pale shade of blue/white, with red wings, and the larger one is blue.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-12-04, 12:41 AM		Shouldn't that be 4d8 (18 average) + 15 = 33 gained?

They're not fanning out to search and are instead all headed straight for me at top speed? How do they know where I am? My invisibility is not canceled and no known method of seeing through invisibility or illusions goes beyond 120 feet range? Even if they were to make a spot check at 600 feet that's -60 to the check?!

These are all things quickly going through Ialldor's brain.

I will pull out my scroll of project image and make my projected image of myself appear 250 feet away from me 45 degrees off the line between me and them. (So a little trigonometry and that should be 370 feet away from them). I'll make it begin to cast a spell. I'll have my permanent illusion behind them also begin to cast a spell, synchronized with the contingent illusions.
Zelphi

06-12-04, 06:56 AM		I'm just wondering... if you took number of pages in a spell book to account... would any of these wizard challenges fall over?
DungeonMaster

06-12-04, 11:53 AM		I actually listed all the pages used in my blessed book. I'm still very far from filling it up! :p
Sylvain

06-12-04, 12:05 PM		Forgive me for my interruption. As our wizardly hero stated, we probably shouldn't be arguing over rules, especially if the DM has already made his ruling, but I noticed something in the PH that might possibly effect the current situation.
PH 3.5 page 170, COUNTERSPELLS
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action (page 160). In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). This check is a free action.
To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself...
...If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect.
This is a really fun thread by the way. :)
PhaedrusXY

06-12-04, 02:54 PM		At least in the specific example of counterspelling, you absolutely can choose which spell to cast on the fly with a readied action. Otherwise, the only possible way to counterspell would be with Dispel Magic, unless you could somehow see into the future to predict what spell your opponent would be casting when you specified your readied action the round before he cast it. I don't see why it would be different for readying an action to cast a spell normally, instead of readying to cast a spell as a counterspell. You have to go through all the motions of spellcasting exactly the same in either case.

So Ialdor should have been able to Dimension Door away as soon as the devils appeared and took no damage. The only way I could see the devils beating him at this would have been if they had done the following:

1) Devil 1 readies an action to teleport them all to a location to be specified by Devil 2's scrying attempt telepathically.

2) Devil 2 Scries on Ialdor and telepathically sends an image of his location to Devil1 (free action to talk, presumably). Devil 1's readied action goes off, immediatly teleporting them.

Since this all happened in the same round, and the devils won initiative, Ialdor would not have gotten to go yet, and hence would not have even gotten to specify he was readying an action. They would have scried on him and gotten there in the same round.
Thermanshs

06-12-04, 03:14 PM		exactly what I said Phaedrus on the last post on the previous page
Sylvain

06-12-04, 11:34 PM		I'm also not sure why the fiends ignored his illusion, though I haven't read up on baatezu lately. The only way they'd get a save to disbelieve is by interacting with the illusion (attacking it for at least a round or two). Though, since they also saw where he was despite his invisibility, there's probably something special going on, or the devils are just special creatures.
Either way, sorry to interrupt. I think alot of people are following this thread, and I myself am especially curious to see how it goes.
Kick some diabolic tail Ialldor! :D
TaisharMalkier

06-14-04, 12:54 AM		Zug Zug.

Been having some computer problems lately. If I had had any more problems it would be a heap of molten metal ;p.

"They're not fanning out to search and are instead all headed straight for me at top speed? How do they know where I am? My invisibility is not canceled and no known method of seeing through invisibility or illusions goes beyond 120 feet range? Even if they were to make a spot check at 600 feet that's -60 to the check?!"

Yar, for some reason I forgot True Seeing had a range. For some reason I thought there was no range. Anywho, they circled around instead, untill you cast your illusion, then started heading towards you, to the distance previously noted (100' towards you, 500' away).

"I'm also not sure why the fiends ignored his illusion, though I haven't read up on baatezu lately. The only way they'd get a save to disbelieve is by interacting with the illusion (attacking it for at least a round or two). Though, since they also saw where he was despite his invisibility, there's probably something special going on, or the devils are just special creatures."

Cough, True Seeing.

"At least in the specific example of counterspelling, you absolutely can choose which spell to cast on the fly with a readied action. Otherwise, the only possible way to counterspell would be with Dispel Magic, unless you could somehow see into the future to predict what spell your opponent would be casting when you specified your readied action the round before he cast it. I don't see why it would be different for readying an action to cast a spell normally, instead of readying to cast a spell as a counterspell. You have to go through all the motions of spellcasting exactly the same in either case.

So Ialdor should have been able to Dimension Door away as soon as the devils appeared and took no damage. The only way I could see the devils beating him at this would have been if they had done the following:

1) Devil 1 readies an action to teleport them all to a location to be specified by Devil 2's scrying attempt telepathically.

2) Devil 2 Scries on Ialdor and telepathically sends an image of his location to Devil1 (free action to talk, presumably). Devil 1's readied action goes off, immediatly teleporting them.

Since this all happened in the same round, and the devils won initiative, Ialdor would not have gotten to go yet, and hence would not have even gotten to specify he was readying an action. They would have scried on him and gotten there in the same round."

I still believe you need to ready a specific spell - or ready to counterspell. For example, you can't ready an action to counterspell, decide you don't want to counterspell a fireball, and instead fireball something else - you need to decide ahead of time. Counterspelling, IMO, is a competely different type of action then casting. In either case, IMO, you simply aren't thinking - you are either casting the spell that you decided on previously, or you are counterspelling the specific spell they are casting - you don't need to think, because you are going to do the same action regardless of what they are going to cast.

Indeed, if he would have had Dimensional Door readied (as apparently he wanted to) he would have taken no damage.


Cheers
Mr.Waesel

06-14-04, 07:54 AM		See Invisibility has a range of sight, so that would work, were it not for the fact that they are using True Seeing.
DungeonMaster

06-14-04, 11:23 AM		Wow... Another reason I'm not qualified to run a 3.5 challenge thread. You're right Mr.Weasel, see invisibility in 3.5 is a personal spell and goes out to the limit of sight! It was a cone in 3rd edition.

No problem with the computer woes Taishar! I have had my fair share in my time and know exactly what it's like.

Now if they are searching I would not cast the project image spell immediately - can I get off some more spells? As they search I'm going to back off progressively.
Also, what do I know about devils? Not these specific devils but devils in general?

I actually agree with Phaedrus and the others (thanks guys!) but it's your ruling and I'm not going to question it. If I survive this one I'm going to dump my detect scrying spell though and pick up something weaker but unambigous like non-detection.
TaisharMalkier

06-14-04, 06:55 PM		Zug Zug.

They are circling around in a widening circle (picture a spiral). You estimate you have perhaps a minute before they pass near your location, assuming they stick with their current movement. This assumes you take at most a move action every round.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-15-04, 01:07 PM		10 rounds... hmmm... Ialldor is nervous, this is going to require some powerful magic and definitely some scrolls. Subtlety might win the day, but I am likely in need of brute force.

How are they circling? As a group or seperate?

1. I will start by casting limited wish spell resistance. SR 27.
2. Then plain old shield spell from scroll. +4 AC
3. Then plain old protection from evil.
4. Then assuming I keep all my gear and spellcasting ability per the rules of the games articles on 3.5 polymorph I'm going to turn myself into a stone giant.
Base Str 27, dex 15, con 19.
+4 to reflex saves +2 to fort saves
saves now at +15/+11/+17
+18 hp
AC: 33 = 10 base + 4 armor (spell) + 4 shield (spell) +2 dex + 11 natural +2
deflection (spell vs. evil)
What would be the DC of the roper's strands if I made my familiar into a roper out of curiosity?
5. Then true-seeing from scroll.
6. Then repulsion.
7. See invisibility with scroll (anything new I notice?)
8. Then greater heroism from scroll. Saves at +19/+15/+21.

Then depending on where they are I will project image from scroll and hit them with greater dispel magic to make sure they're not merely summoned.
Thermanshs

06-15-04, 02:17 PM		flashy flashy! I love it...the SR and the polymorph spells were ones of your best choices :thumbsup:
TaisharMalkier

06-15-04, 02:23 PM		Zug Zug.

They are circling as a spread out group, 50' between (AKA Erinyes, 50', then big Devil, then 50', then Erinyes).

"4. Then assuming I keep all my gear and spellcasting ability per the rules of the games articles on 3.5 polymorph I'm going to turn myself into a stone giant.
Base Str 27, dex 15, con 19. "

You keep any gear that can fit you appropriately. Which in this case would mean about anything.

The roper's strands would be DC 1/2 HD + str, or DC21.

You don't notice anything new from your detection spells.

Right now they are 70' away from you, and will be at your location at the end of next round (assuming you take a move action to move away).


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-15-04, 03:53 PM		Sorry I'm confused by the positioning: They were moving in a spiral pattern about the central area where I dimension doored out of right? So are they lined up relative to me? Are they heading for me or my projected image 250 feet on my left?
In 50 foot increments is it:

EDE

I

or

E
D
E

I
TaisharMalkier

06-16-04, 02:56 AM		Zug Zug.

It's around the first one, with more space inbetween them. They're heading for your actual position.

It's about:

--------------E
---------------
I-------------D
---------------
--------------E


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-16-04, 10:48 AM		I point my finger and utter "Deldreck" while a bolt of pure black energy leaps from it.
Empowered enervation on the largest one! SR checked at +19.
I grab hold of my rods of quicken and maximize.
Erple2

06-16-04, 02:46 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

A cone of cold rolls over you (Reflex 6 + 7 = 13), seeming freezing your very lifeblood (Damage 13D6 = 45.5 - 8 Hardness = 37.5).

Cheers

I thought hardness forced 1/4 damage first (for cold, specifically - fire and electricity do is 1/2, sonic does full) ? Statue gives a hardness of 8, which means the first 16 points of cold is ignored... So the actual damage should be 45.5 - 4 * 8 (hardness) = 12.5 damage?

(edit here):

I don't think that you are running the Statue spell quite right. You only get the hardness when in statue form, not in normal wizardly form - While you can change from wizardly form back into stone form as a free action, I'm not sure what the real meaning of the statement:

(From the SRD for 3.5 on the spell "statue")
"The subject of a statue spell can return to its normal state, act, and then return instantly to the statue state (a free action) if it so desires, as long as the spell duration is in effect."

is. Does it mean that from statue form, you can turn into a wizard, do somethign then transform back into a statue, or does it take an action to transform back into it's normal form? So my question is "what part of the statement does the '(a free action)' modify"? I think it's just the final transformation back into a statue, not the whole process. Oh well - that part I'm not 100% clear on...
DungeonMaster

06-16-04, 03:23 PM		I'm 100% sure it applies to both turning into and out of the statue state. If it didn't then the previous action would be typed (standard action, move equivalent, etc...).

I wondered about the cold damage with respect to hardness as well but I think Taishar is ruling that I'm not an object made of stone (my type does not change) but anything with hardness has that amount substracted from elemental attacks regardless. Which is fair and reasonable. The spell is very powerful and one of my favorites particularly for flavor.
Erple2

06-16-04, 03:37 PM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
I'm 100% sure it applies to both turning into and out of the statue state. If it didn't then the previous action would be typed (standard action, move equivalent, etc...).


I can see it that way, too, now that you mention it. I agree...


I wondered about the cold damage with respect to hardness as well but I think Taishar is ruling that I'm not an object made of stone (my type does not change) but anything with hardness has that amount substracted from elemental attacks regardless. Which is fair and reasonable. The spell is very powerful and one of my favorites particularly for flavor.

There are situational things that make it so hardness can be ignored for some things (like fire on paper, for example), but those are exceptions to the general rule that "things take 1/4 damage to cold if they have hardness". Besides, the spell description (from SRD) pretty specifically states "A statue spell turns the subject to solid stone", so yes, you ARE an object made of stone... It IS a 7th level spell, which is a similar power to Limited Wish, so it IS a pretty stinkin' powerful spell.
TaisharMalkier

06-16-04, 03:51 PM		Zug Zug.

At work, so will post combat when I can look at stats and such =p.

"There are situational things that make it so hardness can be ignored for some things (like fire on paper, for example), but those are exceptions to the general rule that "things take 1/4 damage to cold if they have hardness". Besides, the spell description (from SRD) pretty specifically states "A statue spell turns the subject to solid stone", so yes, you ARE an object made of stone... It IS a 7th level spell, which is a similar power to Limited Wish, so it IS a pretty stinkin' powerful spell."

Objects can't move. That's the defining feature of an object. Even an Animated Object is a creature not an object - because objects by definition have no strength and dexterity score. I think the way I run it is the fairest way, considering how overpowered it would be otherwise (for example, you'd have to be hit by more then 32 points of cold to take a single point of damage - off an hour per level spell).

Seems to me that changing is a free action, unless otherwise specified.


Cheers
PhaedrusXY

06-16-04, 04:04 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Objects can't move. That's the defining feature of an object. Even an Animated Object is a creature not an object - because objects by definition have no strength and dexterity score. Actually, and this is a technical little quibble, objects are defined as having no mental statistics, i.e. Cha, Wis, and Int. Intelligent items qualify as creatures, but have no Str, Dex, or Con. But they do have Int, Cha, and Wis. I can provide the relavent quotes, if you're interested.

From a balance perspective, I can kind of see why you'd rule as you did on the hardness thing. From a "Rules As Written" (RAW) perspective, his hardness should work exactly like it would for a real statue. And as someone said, it is a 7th level spell, so it's not like it shouldn't be powerful. And I thought part of the point of these threads was to play by the core RAW, with as little DM houseruling as possible?
Thermanshs

06-16-04, 04:39 PM		I agree with phaedrus,
It's the HARDNESS that cuts down damage,not the mobility thing.So an animated statue is still a statue,hard as it initially was and resistant to fire as it was...nothing changed about that.The mobility thing only changed it from an object into a creature so as it can be an effective challenge for a character otherwise a common object can't be defined as challenging for a character(except for traps and the like).
So I don't care if this seems overpowered or not(it doesn't for me).That's the way things work and the lawbreaking would come when a stone door (animated or not) takes fire damage as if it was a mass of dried grass.

so this stone statue should've taken 1/4 the normal cold damage amount as per what the srd says:
Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

and something irrelevant...taishar...why don't you use quotes when referring to another man's posts?
Do you not know how or do you prefer it the italics way?
If it's the first then here's how you should syntax your replies to show up as quotes:
(quote)(i)originally posted by"enter poster's name here" (/i)(b)enter text he wrote and you want to refer to here(/b)(/quote)

BUT replace the parenteses with brackets []
Erple2

06-16-04, 05:23 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

At work, so will post combat when I can look at stats and such =p.

Objects can't move. That's the defining feature of an object. Even an Animated Object is a creature not an object - because objects by definition have no strength and dexterity score. I think the way I run it is the fairest way, considering how overpowered it would be otherwise (for example, you'd have to be hit by more then 32 points of cold to take a single point of damage - off an hour per level spell).


My point about situational modifiers should have been more like "if an object is particularly susceptible to X elemental damage, then you may rule that the object's hardness does not 'halve' the damage (or quarter)". Objects can move, however, such as when a character is wielding it or wearing it (mostly irrelevant in this case). However, a thing does not have to be an "object" to have hardness (Animated Objects for example are constructs, not "objects").

Keep in mind, however, that that 1 hour/level spell IS a 7th level spell :). If that is a concern, some spell that does sonic damage should be used, then. I'd still contend that the Wizard should only have taken 12.5 points of damage from the cone of cold (however, when in statue form, I doubt that any reflex save would be possible...)

The point is that there are other lower level spells that are more useful against certain attacks than the Statue spell. Oh, the caster also doesn't have to breath, so is that too powerful? While in statue form, the caster isn't subject to poison or anything like that, so does that also mean it's too powerful? That is one of the perks of having hardness, I guess...


Seems to me that changing is a free action, unless otherwise specified.


I'd agree, then.


(edit - yeesh! I'm getting tired of posting a bunch of }'s instead of ]'s... :))
TaisharMalkier

06-16-04, 10:40 PM		Zug Zug.

Doing the challenge on next post.

I know how to do quotes....I prefer italics - everyone gets the fact that its quoted. I'll use your quote from the SRD as long as you provided it.

"Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness."

I am playing RAW. Everyone agrees he's not an object.

And if he was, he would have taken 3 points of damage, not 12.5, as you divide the damage before applying hardness as yourself quoted.



Cheers
TaisharMalkier

06-16-04, 11:00 PM		Zug Zug.

You attempt to Enervarate (? =p) the large Devil (I'm going to assume you move into range, as it's a range of close - they are now 50' above you and 10' in front of you). Your concentration wavers and you fail to overcome it's spell resistance (1 + 19)!

The large devil pushs past your repulsion (SR 15+19, Will Save 6+19) but only moves 5'. The Erinyes try as well (SR 2 + 19, 20 + 19, Will save 18 + 14) and they both manages to push past the repulsion by 5', and they both watch you, ready to strike.

The large devil breathes another cone of cold at you! You nearly dodge (3+15) but are engulfed again by ice (Spell resistance 17 + 13, 45.5 damage - 8 = 37.5). You've taken 53 out of 84.5.


Cheers
Sylvain

06-17-04, 03:54 AM		I don't know if anyone's still voting on the cold thing. I haven't read the rules myself on the specific spell, but if he's considered to be 'made of stone', then my vote is that he gets all the benefits that a statue (or a stone golem) normally would. And if there's supposed to be some difference between these two things (a construct and a similar unanimated object), I would suggest that there shouldn't be - or that a golem should have at least the capabilities of an inanimate object of the same material. In short, stone is stone.
Just throwing in some common sense if anyone needs it. :)
If not, sorry for interrupting.
TaisharMalkier

06-17-04, 04:39 AM		Zug Zug.

"I don't know if anyone's still voting on the cold thing. I haven't read the rules myself on the specific spell, but if he's considered to be 'made of stone', then my vote is that he gets all the benefits that a statue (or a stone golem) normally would. And if there's supposed to be some difference between these two things (a construct and a similar unanimated object), I would suggest that there shouldn't be - or that a golem should have at least the capabilities of an inanimate object of the same material. In short, stone is stone.
Just throwing in some common sense if anyone needs it.
If not, sorry for interrupting."

I agree with you in terms of realism. However, D&D isn't realistic. I'm going off the rules as written - that you need to be an object for elemental division to apply. A Stone Golem wouldn't divide elemental damage either.


Cheers
Thermanshs

06-17-04, 05:40 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
I'll use your quote from the SRD as long as you provided it.

You forgot to read the paragraph before this ;)
I think it's common sense why objects OR animated objects are energy resistant.Do you still beleive it's because they can move?Why not take an apparatus of kwalish then?It's still an object (a magical one to be precise) and it CAN move and attack etc.But it's still made of metal and has hardness of 15.Hence energy resistant

In short, stone is stone.
Exactly,and also agreed with your previous statements and sorry for the interrupting again...

A Stone Golem wouldn't divide elemental damage either.
Because golems are IMMUNE to magic.
Harliquinn

06-17-04, 08:36 AM		Originally posted by Thermanshs
Because golems are IMMUNE to magic.

Just to nitpick, golems aren't immune to magic (Though their descriptor for this power is Immunity to Magic). They are immune to all spells and spell-like abilities which give Spell Resistance, and they take different effects from a few spells. For instance a Dragon's Breath would do full damage to a golem (and it wouldn't be quartered first).

I can't find the references about objects taking less damage in the SRD. However, it would seem that if the wizard has an actual hardness, and since only objects have hardness, he is considered an object at the time. However, the GM may rule differently, and it could make sense the other way as well.
Thermanshs

06-17-04, 08:41 AM		well...you only clarified the spell immunity thing a bit...the logic stays the same....stone golems don't subtract cold damage because they are effectively immune to cold Dmg dealing spells.If you want a reference in the SRD you can either check it on my copy on the previous page or go to the 7th page of the Carying and exploration document(hard to guess this huh? :D) on the HP section...
jaelis

06-17-04, 08:43 AM		Why don't we just let DungeonMaster and TaisharMalkier do their thing? I'm quite sure that DM is perfectly capable of making his own arguments if he finds one of Taishar's rulings unacceptable. They don't need a flock of kibitzers.

jaelis
Thermanshs

06-17-04, 08:45 AM		we're trying to make this battle fair you know...and this full energy damage thing doesn't sound that logical to me(since the SRD says so TOO) but I have to admit what taishar pointed out that D&D generally trades realism for game balance
DungeonMaster

06-17-04, 10:19 AM		Man that is awful luck... I cast enervation from my projected image, which is in range, not myself though! The repulsion field is specifically up in the hope to protect against the cone of cold and other short range spells actually. No way I'm going to willingly get within 60 feet when I have a projected image. :P
I can't move and grab the rods in that round and I definitely want to ready the rods for what I do next.

I'm going to align my projected image with them so that I can hit them all in one line. I'll toss a maximized through rod empowered lightning bolt and then a quickened maximized lightning bolt. If I think the erinyes are readying to hit me with a spell I will fake spellcasting, at least the first few words and gestures, and use the quickened maximized lightning bolt first - which can't be disrupted, then follow through with the maximized empowered spell.
Harliquinn

06-17-04, 12:54 PM		Originally posted by Thermanshs
well...you only clarified the spell immunity thing a bit...the logic stays the same....stone golems don't subtract cold damage because they are effectively immune to cold Dmg dealing spells.

True but they aren't immune to the cold breath of a White Dragon, which an object would indeed have hardness and protection against.

While it's true the DM and wizard are capable of resolving issues, the point of the thread is also to comment on things. There is no harm in it, and we aren't really disrupting anything.
TaisharMalkier

06-17-04, 01:32 PM		Zug Zug.

"Man that is awful luck... I cast enervation from my projected image, which is in range, not myself though! The repulsion field is specifically up in the hope to protect against the cone of cold and other short range spells actually. No way I'm going to willingly get within 60 feet when I have a projected image.
I can't move and grab the rods in that round and I definitely want to ready the rods for what I do next. "

Hmmm....the projected image was a good 200' from the closest (which you didn't target), and the spell dosen't provide movement rates. It's likely to have the same movement as you do, which would mean it's unable to get close enough in a round to enervarate. What did you want to do then?

You can draw a weapon on the move. All rods are either heavy maces or light maces. I houserule it that you can draw wands too, but in this specific circumstance you can because they are weapons.

I'll wait to see what you want to do about Enervation before I do the actions.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-17-04, 02:14 PM		Hmmm.... I must admit I'm a bit lost in the positioning and the flow of the thread.
Did I get 10 rounds of actions back when you said a minute before they reach me? Did they get hit by my greater dispel? And they didn't move towards the illusion first?

I'm not 100% sure anymore do I get to create a duplicate image of myself every round for the duration of the spell within range or a one shot duplicate? If so how do you rule I can move it?

I'm not so much worried about the enervation than I am about the little drawings I've been making trying to figure out where things are. :P

My basic and simple plan was to use my secondary casting point, the projected image, so as to line them up for a good cooking. They can pehaps see through my illusions but they probably can't suspect the illusion can hurt them. :devil:
Thermanshs

06-17-04, 02:32 PM		Originally posted by Harliquinn
True but they aren't immune to the cold breath of a White Dragon, which an object would indeed have hardness and protection against.
Tricky tricky....:) You're right overe here that golems aren't immune to supernatural abilities.So GUYS! WHY DON'T WE REFER TO AN AUTHOR PUT AN END ON THIS SUBJECT?Should I send a mail to wizards customer service?
TaisharMalkier

06-17-04, 05:05 PM		Zug Zug.

"I'm not 100% sure anymore do I get to create a duplicate image of myself every round for the duration of the spell within range or a one shot duplicate? If so how do you rule I can move it? "

It shows up, and stays. You only get one. It specifically says in the spell you can take a move action to direct it what to do.

As things are now, they are 55' away from you (50' in the air, 5' in front of you). You could move the image (as move action) and use your standard/free actions to cast. The posistions are about the same as the last graph. Be advised I made a mistake - the large devil actually passed his will save for repulsion, and you failed to penetrate the Erinyes that failed it's save SR.

--E
---
I-D
---
--E

The devils are all 50' in the air, you are securely on the ground.

You could see no effect from your Greater Dispel. (If you're interested, rolls are 5 + 15, 7 + 15, and 14 + 15).

Hope that cleared everything up. Do you still want to do what you said previously?


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-18-04, 09:43 AM		No no, I understand THAT positioning. Even then that's wrong, they can't get within 150 feet of me since round 7 except for the lone Erinyes. Where is my projected image on the diagram? You said it's 200 feet away currently and I was under the impression that they flew towards it first, seeing as I was beyond detection range on round 9, and that I hit them with dispel magic on round 10. Then they would fly towards me on round 11.
If that's a fly spell then it can move at most 120 feet a round and so should lag behind the winged creatures right?

Either way, we can rearange the order of actions to arrive at the current situation for the consistency you want with my enervation ray range (failing regardless of course).

My current plan is to position the devils or my projected image to fry them with lightning. So if need be I'll run into position and use the edge of my repulsion field to line them up roughly. I'll cast a quickened fly spell on my projected image if I need that as well. I'm specifically avoiding the 60 foot range I know cone of cold has at all times.

Higher levels can certainly be a blast but the complexity is also that much greater... :P
TaisharMalkier

06-18-04, 05:18 PM		Zug Zug.

They never headed for your illusion. They continued with their spiral.

While I can't comment on fly speed, they were moving 100' a round, so it seems likely with a fly spell he could keep up.

"So if need be I'll run into position and use the edge of my repulsion field to line them up roughly. "

If you move, they don't. The repulsion field does not push them back. It says specifically in the spell. They are currently lined up though, in the air.

"The projected image can't cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells."

Direct quote.

Unless they come on the ground, I can't figure out a way you'd hit more then 1 of them with a Lightning Bolt. You might need a new plan =p.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-19-04, 12:55 PM		That's just plain sick what he did to project image. Oh that is disgusting. Unbeleivable. Anyways, I thought for a moment that the school of illusion had avoided molestation but I am sorely wrong. I will refrain from further comments here though.
You're right about the image, and what a damn waste of a 7th level spell.

Ok, just to clear a few more things up:

I didn't notice you said that they all saved against the repulsion.
I thought some of them had failed. My mistake again.

I've given up not looking at the monster entries, the 3.5 knowledge system is ridiculous. I'm a 14th level mage and even if I put full ranks into anything I'm going to know 2 things on average about a CR 7 stone giant at this level. By 20th level I will know on average 3...

Judging from the saving throw rolls and SR checks I think they under the influence of unholy aura. Could you have perhaps told me that they were surrounded by a malaevolant-darkness at some point? Don't I get a spell-craft or anything?
I think you only rolled for me dispelling 3 spells and the gelugon might fall out of the sky as it's fly spell might break.

Out-of-character why didn't they go towards my now-completely-crappy 7th level illusion? :P

So far out of 11 d20 rolls I've had 4 over 10, and only one of them when it counted (fear save).
20,20,15,14,9,7,6,5,3,2,1
They've had 8 d20 rolls and only 2 below 10, and not one bad roll when it counted.
18,17,17,15,13,10,5,6
If Ialldor's luck doesn't change soon he's cooked for sure. :P

I'm going to run directly towards my illusions and stone statues at 200 feet a round.
TaisharMalkier

06-19-04, 01:52 PM		Zug Zug.

Yar, your luck has been pretty bad.

He cast unholy aura before teleport. Going by RAW, there is no visual effect, so unless you had permanent magic detection or something similar you don't get anything.

"I've given up not looking at the monster entries, the 3.5 knowledge system is ridiculous. I'm a 14th level mage and even if I put full ranks into anything I'm going to know 2 things on average about a CR 7 stone giant at this level. "

Shrug. If you capped out ranks you would know 2 things on average about a stone giant (18 + 8 = 26 + 10 (avrg) = 36, 14 HD). A stone giant has quite a lot of HD for its CR. Most of the outsiders have equal HD to CR, so with capped out ranks you'd on average know 2-3 things about outsiders equal to your CR.

I remembered to roll for the fly spell after I looked up Dispel Magic again, it didn't dispel, but as I'm not positive I'll roll again when I get home.

They're devils. They're not stupid - they understand you are a mage who uses many illusions, and that to break invisibility normally you have to do an offensive action - as you didn't do an offensive action, they assumed you were trying to mislead you and ignored the illusion altogether.

I'll do the actions when I get home. Blonk.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-19-04, 02:01 PM		No problem, I've never rolled well in my entire life. Even when I'm not the one rolling clearly. Players like me as a DM for that though.

There is a visual effect to unholy aura though. It's the first line of the description, a maleavolant darkness covers them.
Erple2

06-19-04, 02:07 PM		Too bad you aren't a good cleric. One single spell would have probably worked wonders with these creatures: Holy Word. Boom, all of them, gone :)

Oh well. This is shaping up to be an interesting challenge. Though, I'm surprised that So far, you've only encountered demons/devils... Someone really wants you dead :)
Erple2

06-19-04, 02:36 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

If you move, they don't. The repulsion field does not push them back. It says specifically in the spell. They are currently lined up though, in the air.

"The projected image can't cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells."

Direct quote.


True, but he doesn't want to cast a spell on the Projected Image, he wants to cast a spell through it, which, finding the relevant passage in the SRD:

If you desire, any spell you cast whose range is touch or greater can originate from the projected image instead of from you. The projected image can't cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells. The spells affect other targets normally, despite originating from the projected image.

Which implies that the mage CAN actually cast a lightning bolt, originating at the shadowy double.. So he can do that.

Now, he does have to concentrate to move the shadow, but can he have the image "fly" into a line with the demon/devils, then cast lightning bolt, with the shadow being the originator?

(edit: I quoted the v3.0 SRD originally, now I quoted the 3.5 SRD.. oops).
Thermanshs

06-19-04, 05:15 PM		Taishar...why don't you use an electronic die-roller?It's the easiest thing on Greyhawk to use and WotC just released one!Check >>HERE<< (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20040517a) to download it or use it online!!!
TaisharMalkier

06-19-04, 10:44 PM		Zug Zug.

"Taishar...why don't you use an electronic die-roller?It's the easiest thing on Greyhawk to use and WotC just released one!Check >>HERE<< to download it or use it online!!!"

Oddly enough, thats the one I've been using the whole time ^_^.

"Which implies that the mage CAN actually cast a lightning bolt, originating at the shadowy double.. So he can do that."

He can cast as many lightning bolts from the image as he wants. He just can't cast fly on it =P.

When you start running towards the stone statues/illusions, the Erinyes send cold, cloying miasma of greasy darkness at you (SR 9 + 12, 11 + 12) but your resist the spells! (some decent luck for once ;p).

You run 200' to the north. They all teleport to your location, hemming you in ! (see map)

----dd----
----xx----
----xx----
--e----e--

x = you, e = erinyes, d = big devil

An aura of palpable fear radiates from the large devil, but you stand your ground! (10 + 21)

It's argueable that you can see the darkness, but you're right, I prolly should have said it ;p.

As for Holy Word, heres what would have happened:
Overcome SR 8 + 14, 1 + 14, 1 + 14, you don't penetrate their SR lol. I have to admit, that was a bit more futile then I would have thought (musta rubbed off from DM). If you had spell penetration or something similar the devil that failed woulda been gone thou ^_~.


Cheers
Thermanshs

06-20-04, 08:02 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Oddly enough, thats the one I've been using the whole time ^_^.
Oh...that "I have to go home to roll again" confused me:confused:
DungeonMaster

06-20-04, 12:11 PM		What did they ready their action against? :P
So I take it the fly spell was not dispelled?

I presume since you havn't said anything that they still have their bows in hand so I'm going to take a move action through the opponent's reach. I'll try and tumble (no penalty so why not?) as part of normal movement to avoid an AoO from any reach.
----dd----
----------
----------
--e----exx
---------xx


I've saved against the fear already so I can't be affected for 1 day.

I cast flesh to stone on the big devil and quickened maximized lightning bolt on the two erinyes.

No problem about the darkness, I just would have liked to have known.


As for Holy Word, heres what would have happened:
Overcome SR 8 + 14, 1 + 14, 1 + 14, you don't penetrate their SR lol.

3.5 holy word? They all die. Specifically the erinyes die without a save, and the gelugon is blinded, deafened and paralyzed for 1d10 minutes without a save - then I coup-de-grace it with a flame strike. Caster level 14 +1 orange ioun stone +1 good domain +4 bead of karma = 20. Spell penetration and greater spell penetration means SR checked at +24. No save, no SR. No die rolls. *poof* all dead.

:rant: Clearly project image was broken and needed nerfing compared to another "7th level" spell... And I mean lord forbid you can "hold monster" a single monster for more than a round with a will-save to boot... Anyways, this is old hat and everyone knows the 3.5 version is the most broken spell ever in the history of D&D.
If the gods of D&D are fair and just then we will get someone competent to design the 4th edition spell system.
Ok... that's enough rant. Back to my now pathetic wizard getting trashed.
:D
Erple2

06-20-04, 02:53 PM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster


3.5 holy word? They all die. Specifically the erinyes die without a save, and the gelugon is blinded, deafened and paralyzed for 1d10 minutes without a save - then I coup-de-grace it with a flame strike. Caster level 14 +1 orange ioun stone +1 good domain +4 bead of karma = 20. Spell penetration and greater spell penetration means SR checked at +24. No save, no SR. No die rolls. *poof* all dead.

That's not right: The creatures are not 10 fewer hit die than your caster level, so none of the die. The Erinyes would be Parlayzed, blinded and deafaned, but the nastier one would just be deafened. However, in 3.5, they now get a will save (at -4) or be banished from your plane.

:rant: Clearly project image was broken and needed nerfing compared to another "7th level" spell... And I mean lord forbid you can "hold monster" something for more than a round... Anyways, this is old hat and everyone knows the 3.5 version is the most broken spell ever in the history of D&D.
If the gods of D&D are fair and just then we will get someone competent to design the 4th edition spell system.
Ok... that's enough rant. Back to my now pathetic wizard getting trashed.
:D

Well, I didn't think that project image was all that broken. Actually, it's now a 7th level spell (used to be 6th). I'm not sure how it was nerfed. As for "hold person", it was essentially "save or die", which is a bit on the powerful side for a 2nd level spell. In reality, you only have 3+ rounds to actually kill the other person, but I can see how it needed a teeny bit of nerfing.

I'm excited to see what happens next!
DungeonMaster

06-20-04, 03:34 PM		Erple. The erinyes according to my 3.5 SRD are 9HD. My supposed cleric's caster level is 20. They die. No save. They might also be banished too....
Check it out. It adds up. 14th level, +1 caster level from the good domain, +1 caster level from the ioun stone, +4 caster levels from the bead of karma = 20th level caster. Evil creatures 10 HD or less die. *Poof*
Same thing for the previous challenge with the retreivers. *poof* all dead. Over in the matter of seconds if I was a cleric. All core.


Well, I didn't think that project image was all that broken.

That was sarcasm. :P
Project image 3.5 you can't cast anything save maybe invisibility on the image - 3rd edition just about anything.
It was 6th and is now 7th and thus supposed to be inline with spells like holyword.
I don't think it's the place to discuss spell balance but at 2nd level hold person has a pathetic DC and is by no means immediate death. A ring of freedom of movement will give you immunity to all hold spells and is by no means the only way around it (remove paralysis among others is likewise 2nd and works for many targets).

On with the show!
Erple2

06-20-04, 04:56 PM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
Erple. The erinyes according to my 3.5 SRD are 9HD. My supposed cleric's caster level is 20. They die. No save. They might also be banished too....
Check it out. It adds up. 14th level, +1 caster level from the good domain, +1 caster level from the ioun stone, +4 caster levels from the bead of karma = 20th level caster. Evil creatures 10 HD or less die. *Poof*
Same thing for the previous challenge with the retreivers. *poof* all dead. Over in the matter of seconds if I was a cleric. All core.


I forgot about all of your equipment. Yeah, that would be a brutal laying down of the smack against demons, if you were a cleric. But I guess that makes sense, that's one of the things that Clerics do best...

That was sarcasm. :P
Project image 3.5 you can't cast anything save maybe invisibility on the image - 3rd edition just about anything.
It was 6th and is now 7th and thus supposed to be inline with spells like holyword.
I don't think it's the place to discuss spell balance but at 2nd level hold person has a pathetic DC and is by no means immediate death. A ring of freedom of movement will give you immunity to all hold spells and is by no means the only way around it (remove paralysis among others is likewise 2nd and works for many targets).

On with the show!

Probably not. I'll send you a PM.

But I AM interested in seeing how this turns out!
TaisharMalkier

06-20-04, 09:25 PM		Zug Zug.

"3.5 holy word? They all die. Specifically the erinyes die without a save, and the gelugon is blinded, deafened and paralyzed for 1d10 minutes without a save - then I coup-de-grace it with a flame strike. Caster level 14 +1 orange ioun stone +1 good domain +4 bead of karma = 20. Spell penetration and greater spell penetration means SR checked at +24. No save, no SR. No die rolls. *poof* all dead. "

Yep, thats why Beads are pretty broken. Course, anyone that sends demons/devils at clerics trying to kill them is just asking for it...

"Oh...that "I have to go home to roll again" confused me"

I meant that I don't have my books with me at work. Not that I couldn't roll a dice.

"I presume since you havn't said anything that they still have their bows in hand so I'm going to take a move action through the opponent's reach. I'll try and tumble (no penalty so why not?) as part of normal movement to avoid an AoO from any reach. "

The Erinyes do currently have bows in hand. The bigger one never had a bow ^_~. Unfortunately, you can't attempt to tumble untrained.

You move where you said - the large devil takes a swipe at you with his claw (14 + 19) just managing to strike through the myriad of defensive spells you have up. You take 11.5 (D10 + 6) - 8 = 3.5 damage for a total of 56.5 out of 84.5.

You attempt to cast flesh to stone on the large devil but fail to overcome it's spell resistance (4 + 19!).

You cast quickened, maximized lightning bolt on the 2 Erinyes - you fail to overcome ones spell resistance (1+19) and break past the other's SR (17+19). She deftly dodges the brunt of the lightning bolt (19 + 11 = 30) but takes 30 damage! At this point you're wondering if you've been cursed by an evil god ;p (or at least the DM is ;p).

The large devil moves near you and breathes another cone of cold but fails to penetrate your spell resistance (9 + 14)! He draws a spear on the way as well.

The erinyes move the other side of you, drawing their longswords on the way. They watch you, ready to strike.

----dd--
----------
----------
----xx---
----xx---
----------
e-------e

They readied their actions to hit you if you moved or cast a spell previously. The fly spell was not dispelled, though for some reason I keep forgetting to write the number down ;p.


Cheers
Erple2

06-21-04, 12:23 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

"3.5 holy word? They all die. Specifically the erinyes die without a save, and the gelugon is blinded, deafened and paralyzed for 1d10 minutes without a save - then I coup-de-grace it with a flame strike. Caster level 14 +1 orange ioun stone +1 good domain +4 bead of karma = 20. Spell penetration and greater spell penetration means SR checked at +24. No save, no SR. No die rolls. *poof* all dead. "

Yep, thats why Beads are pretty broken. Course, anyone that sends demons/devils at clerics trying to kill them is just asking for it...


Maybe. But they aren't cheap, either. Plus only usable once per day (granted for like 10 minutes)...


The large devil moves near you and breathes another cone of cold but fails to penetrate your spell resistance (9 + 14)! He draws a spear on the way as well.

The erinyes move the other side of you, drawing their longswords on the way. They watch you, ready to strike.

Then there should be AoO's from at least a few of them, assuming they draw in close enough to be able to actually take an AoO...

Interesting how a few botched rolls really makes it a LOT harder to survive :)
DungeonMaster

06-21-04, 11:39 AM		Hmm... no, this isn't merely a few bad rolls, something is seriously wrong, there are some statistical incongruities here.

My caster level is 15 vs a caster level of 13, the dispel check is 24 so I need to roll a 9 or better to dispel a spell. That's a 60% chance of success, 40% chance of failure. To fail all 4 dispel checks is 0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4 = 2.56% probable.

The gelugon has now "saved" against enervation, repulsion and stone to flesh. It's SR of 25 is 25% effective against my caster level of 19 and it's saves are +19 vs my DCs of 24 with thus a 20% chance of failure. Against the repulsion or the stone to flesh spell that's 1-0.75*0.2 = 85% chance of success. The enervation + the repulsion + stone to flesh means 0.25*0.85*0.85 = 18% chance of nothing affecting it.

The individual Erinyes have the same piddly SR of 25% and their will saves are 5 worse than the gelugon. To come out un-scathed of the repulsion field that's 1-0.75*0.45 = 66.25%

For all three to have experienced no effect from any of my magic so far that's 0.0256*0.6625*0.6625*0.18= 0.2% chance of that happening

With yet another successful 25% SR check, straight in a row, against my lightning bolt this time at the 25% level that's 0.05% chance of that happening or quite effectively the odds are 1 in 2000.

Not to mention that in that same sequence we had the gelugon both beat my SR (13 vs 27) and me fail my save (+15 vs DC 20) which is 0.35*0.2= 7% probable.

For:
20, 20,18,17,15,14,9,8,7,6,5,3,4,2,1,1,1,1 + one more below 9 (dispel)
Average is 7.8 standard deviation is 6.77

Against:
19, 18,17,17,15, 14,13,10,9,6,5
Average is 13 standard deviation is 4.94

Not only is their average higher but their results are clearly better clustered around the higher average, with a lower deviation from the (higher) mean.

Now I'm all for continuing but this is not a statistically significant endeavor as it stands. That or I'm going to run out and buy a lottery ticket.
I suggest we simply re-roll everything on the krisinchico roller which has been very consistent so far under the name Ialldor.
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp
Erple2

06-21-04, 04:32 PM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
[B] A bunch of statistical stuff deleted/b]

And that is the problem with a lot of die rolling programs. I've seen ones where they seem to have the average relatively spot on, but tend to alternate good vs. bad rolls to get it that way. Perhaps a fair die is a better bet (I mean an ACTUALLY fair die, not a "well loved" die that a lot of people use that seem to roll well all the time)...

Of course, my dice seem to average out to fair, but for the wrong reasons. It seems that I roll well for knowlege checks and initiative, but never for when it really counts in the middle of combat. I recall last gaming session, it took me LITERALLY 8 rolls before I rolled above 4 on a d20. After that, I started seeing what I'd consider as a decent spread. Some people are just cursed, I guess!

Making a truly random number generator that generates a genuinely uniform probability function is VERY hard to do. I don't suspect that the majority of RNG's out there are as reliably uniform as you'd think..

I had one for the palm pilot that, while the average and spread looked pretty good, looking at a LOT of numbers, but when you considered any two pairs, they were very often clustered together, so, for example, Criticals were disproportionally confirmed...
TaisharMalkier

06-21-04, 04:42 PM		Zug Zug.

"My caster level is 15 vs a caster level of 13, the dispel check is 24 so I need to roll a 9 or better to dispel a spell. That's a 60% chance of success, 40% chance of failure. To fail all 4 dispel checks is 0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4 = 2.56% probable. "

You dispeled one of the Erinyes's Unholy Aura. The roll was posted - I didn't mention that you could see anything at the time because we didn't have the visual effect discussion yet. The chances of you only dispeling one is maybe 20%, but it's still quite conceivable.

"The gelugon has now "saved" against enervation, repulsion and stone to flesh. It's SR of 25 is 25% effective against my caster level of 19 and it's saves are +19 vs my DCs of 24 with thus a 20% chance of failure. Against the repulsion or the stone to flesh spell that's 1-0.75*0.2 = 85% chance of success. The enervation + the repulsion + stone to flesh means 0.25*0.85*0.85 = 18% chance of nothing affecting it. "

It saves 80% of the time, and SR blocks 1/4 the spells - that means 85% of the time it should be fine. Chances: 61.4% (.85% cubed) of nothing effecting it, or greater then average chance of nothing effecting it. On your math you actually penalized his chances of nothing effecting him from spell resistance, which should increase his chances.

"The individual Erinyes have the same piddly SR of 25% and their will saves are 5 worse than the gelugon. To come out un-scathed of the repulsion field that's 1-0.75*0.45 = 66.25% "

Shrug. You didn't penetrate one's SR (25% or so chance) and the other saved (+15, vs DC24, or pass 60% of the time). It dosen't seem that unlikely to me. 49% of the time they'd be unaffected (70% squared).

"Not to mention that in that same sequence we had the gelugon both beat my SR (13 vs 27) and me fail my save (+15 vs DC 20) which is 0.35*0.2= 7% probable. "

Shrug, 35% chance of beating SR, and 20% chance of failing the save is definately 7%.

I'm fine rolling everything on the Vacuum dice roller - I've been rolling them online anyways (and I can't believe that the Wizard's roller would be skewed). You have had very bad luck, but that's the way the game is - the dice introduce an element of chance. I've rolled 7 20s in a row before - statistically the chances of that are less then 0.000000004% or 1 in 250 million.

All dice rolls will now be under Ialldor.

What did you want to do?


Cheers
Erple2

06-21-04, 05:49 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

You dispeled one of the Erinyes's Unholy Aura. The roll was posted - I didn't mention that you could see anything at the time because we didn't have the visual effect discussion yet. The chances of you only dispeling one is maybe 20%, but it's still quite conceivable.

That's not quite right. The likelihood of dispelling all of them is a little under 13% (0.6^4), but the likelihood of only dispelling one of them is (0.4^3*0.6) or 3.84%. Funny how that probability is lower than dispelling all of them...


"The gelugon has now "saved" against enervation, repulsion and stone to flesh. It's SR of 25 is 25% effective against my caster level of 19 and it's saves are +19 vs my DCs of 24 with thus a 20% chance of failure. Against the repulsion or the stone to flesh spell that's 1-0.75*0.2 = 85% chance of success. The enervation + the repulsion + stone to flesh means 0.25*0.85*0.85 = 18% chance of nothing affecting it. "

It saves 80% of the time, and SR blocks 1/4 the spells - that means 85% of the time it should be fine. Chances: 61.4% (.85% cubed) of nothing effecting it, or greater then average chance of nothing effecting it. On your math you actually penalized his chances of nothing effecting him from spell resistance, which should increase his chances.

Except that Enervation provides no save, so the probability really is 0.85(Flesh to stone) * 0.85 (replusion) * 0.25 (enervation) or 18%, or way below half.


"The individual Erinyes have the same piddly SR of 25% and their will saves are 5 worse than the gelugon. To come out un-scathed of the repulsion field that's 1-0.75*0.45 = 66.25% "

Shrug. You didn't penetrate one's SR (25% or so chance) and the other saved (+15, vs DC24, or pass 60% of the time). It dosen't seem that unlikely to me. 49% of the time they'd be unaffected (70% squared).

Technically (unless there are effects that we don't know about), their save should be +14 (will save +4 resistance bonus from Unholy Aura), so the bonus is really .6625 squared (about 44%), but that's just nitpicking :)



You have had very bad luck, but that's the way the game is - the dice introduce an element of chance. I've rolled 7 20s in a row before - statistically the chances of that are less then 0.000000004% or 1 in 250 million.


hmm.. to roll 7 '20's in a row is 0.05^7 or roughly 1 in 1.28 billion...

I'm STILL very interested in seeing how Ialldor manages to squeeze himself out of this one.. Things are looking pretty grim for him, though. Clearly the fates are not smiling on him today...
TaisharMalkier

06-21-04, 07:31 PM		Zug Zug.

"That's not quite right. The likelihood of dispelling all of them is a little under 13% (0.6^4), but the likelihood of only dispelling one of them is (0.4^3*0.6) or 3.84%. Funny how that probability is lower than dispelling all of them..."

Your math is wrong. However, I'm not capable of doing it either (that's why I estimated). In this case, you are actually penalizing the odds by having one be dispeled, when in reality it makes the odds get better.

"Except that Enervation provides no save, so the probability really is 0.85(Flesh to stone) * 0.85 (replusion) * 0.25 (enervation) or 18%, or way below half."

You'd also need to hit with Enervation - which is no easy task, at +8 vs Touch of 18, 45% of the time he'd miss. So a total 66.25% chance of the spell not effecting him. Which would make the total .85 * .85 * .66 = 47.7% chance of not being effected by the three spells.

"hmm.. to roll 7 '20's in a row is 0.05^7 or roughly 1 in 1.28 billion..."

Yar, I forgot to multiply the last time. Regardless, luck goes up and down, which is the point I was trying to make.

EDIT: Added in need to hit with Enervation odds.



Cheers
Warspite

06-21-04, 07:59 PM		For the record the probability of dispelling exaclty one of the four spells is 4*(.6*.4^3) since there are four permutations or about 15.36%.

The full probability matrix is:

All dispelled (1*.6^4) = 12.96%
3 Dispelled (4*.6^3*.4) = 34.56%
2 Dispelled (6*.6^2*.4^2) = 34.56%
1 Dispelled (4*.6*.4^3) = 15.36%
0 dispelled (1*.4^4) = 2.56%

Given the horribly slanted statistics in this fight (yeah it could happen that way since it did), At this point if Ialador loses it really doesn't prove much except that if you roll 1's and your opponent rolls 20's your gonna loose.

Win loose or draw you may want to go back and reroll the die rolls in this encounter and see how much difference it makes.

Sorry to butt in. This is a great thread and I will go back to lurking.

Warspite
Erple2

06-21-04, 08:46 PM		Originally posted by Warspite
For the record the probability of dispelling exaclty one of the four spells is 4*(.6*.4^3) since there are four permutations or about 15.36%.

The full probability matrix is:

All dispelled (1*.6^4) = 12.96%
3 Dispelled (4*.6^3*.4) = 34.56%
2 Dispelled (6*.6^2*.4^2) = 34.56%
1 Dispelled (4*.6*.4^3) = 15.36%
0 dispelled (1*.4^4) = 2.56%



Oh well, I guess that's what happens when pseudo-statistics gets thrown into the mix! For the record, I was only off by a factor of 4 :)


Given the horribly slanted statistics in this fight (yeah it could happen that way since it did), At this point if Ialador loses it really doesn't prove much except that if you roll 1's and your opponent rolls 20's your gonna loose.

Win loose or draw you may want to go back and reroll the die rolls in this encounter and see how much difference it makes.


True, however, we'd have to do the combat a nearly infinite number of times to see what the real chance of success would be. Even then, it would only tell you the chance of success of Ialldor if the exact same series of steps is maintained.
Warspite

06-21-04, 09:22 PM		True, however, we'd have to do the combat a nearly infinite number of times to see what the real chance of success would be. Even then, it would only tell you the chance of success of Ialldor if the exact same series of steps is maintained.

Actually a couple of test runs would tell you if his steps had a reasonable chance of success. (Twenty five if you want to be statistically rigorous.) If you ran the dice two or three times and he failed in all of them that would be strong evidence that it wasn't just bad die rolls that killed him. Just like if he manages to pull this one out there is strong evidence of his great promise.

But this thread isn't about us debating statistical analysis.

Regards,

Warspite
TaisharMalkier

06-21-04, 09:30 PM		Zug Zug.

Shrug. I disagree that this encounter is not valid for judging the capability of the wizard. Sometimes you roll poorly. The argument was that a wizard is viable in any situation - any situation includes one in which luck goes against you.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-21-04, 11:16 PM		In a game that relies heavily on rolls, as long as everyone is 100% clear that this is a very fringe case scenario.
It's not just a question of Ialldor rolling badly, which he has, it's the monsters rolling really well. Even dead on CR is virtually impossible under such circumstances.

Anyhow, I double move disengage from them to not provoke attacks of opportunity and move towards my illusions and statues 100 feet. If AoO can't be avoided from the large devil because of positioning I'll simply run 200 feet.
TaisharMalkier

06-22-04, 02:14 AM		Zug Zug.

You run 200' towards your statues (the AoO was unavoided - only the first square is treated as not threatened) - the large devil takes a swipe at you with his spear but misses horribly (1 + 19), nearly dropping his weapon.

The two Erinyes attempt to cast Unholy Blight on you but fail (8 +12, 3 + 12) to overcome your spell resistance again! (note: the last 5~ or so times they failed to overcome your spell resistance, as I said, luck evens out).

They teleport to the same positions as previously, surrounding you.

----dd----
-----------
-----------
----xx----
----xx----
--e----e--

EDIT: Added Map


Cheers
PhaedrusXY

06-22-04, 03:24 AM		So you're letting them teleport as a free action, or one of them is using it's action to teleport all three? Either way is wrong. If it's the former, it's wrong because "at will" doesn't mean it's a free action. Teleport is a spell-like ability for devils and they certainly can't do it as a free action (unless they have the feat Quicken Spell-like ability). If you are saying one is using their action to teleport all three, then that doesn't work either. They can only teleport themselves + 50 pounds (unless they're actually casting the spell, not using a Spell-like ability... which I highly doubt).

I had a similar discussion with Dungeon Master in the 3.0 wizard's challenge when he was using the monsters extraordinary abilities as a free action. He never did agree with me, but everyone else did. :D

If the Erinyes cast Unholy Blight, then they don't get to teleport that round.
Thermanshs

06-22-04, 08:38 AM		Agreed with Phaedrus.Although I'm not paying that much attention to details such as counting actions or spells used the thing that creatures need a standard action to cast a spell-like ability is clear.
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 10:15 AM		I think there is a problem with the erinyes hitting me with both the unholy blight and teleporting in the same round, I certainly can't see how they do it.

Is it true that even if I have 10x10 facing that I can't get away from someone with similar 10 foot reach in 3.5? That seems really odd that similarly sized creatures could never disengange from each other in combat.
There should be no difference related to scale for disengaging. An ogre should be able to disengage from an ogre much like a human can disengage from a human. It would be really odd if not.

Either way, the plan is the same - get to the area with the statues. It should be only about 2-3 hundred more feet away right?

Luck certainly can change, it's the uninterupted string of events leading up to this that make it so improbable. Anyways, let's not argue anymore and move on!

Phaedrus: That acid was an Ex ability! :mage: They're free actions unless it says differently, as per MM. You still managed to kill one of them! :P
Thermanshs

06-22-04, 01:46 PM		DM,actually there IS a way for 2 large creatures to disengage without drawing AoOs.REACH! Most large creatures have a 10' reach so when they fight they fight from this distance.Unfortunately for you you start 5' from the enemy and thus draw an AoO normally.
TaisharMalkier

06-22-04, 02:23 PM		Zug Zug.

"So you're letting them teleport as a free action, or one of them is using it's action to teleport all three? Either way is wrong. If it's the former, it's wrong because "at will" doesn't mean it's a free action. Teleport is a spell-like ability for devils and they certainly can't do it as a free action (unless they have the feat Quicken Spell-like ability). If you are saying one is using their action to teleport all three, then that doesn't work either. They can only teleport themselves + 50 pounds (unless they're actually casting the spell, not using a Spell-like ability... which I highly doubt)."

Sorry I wasn't clear. They used their readied actions ("They watch you, ready to strike").

No, they can't teleport and attack.

"Phaedrus: That acid was an Ex ability! They're free actions unless it says differently, as per MM. You still managed to kill one of them! "

I disagreed then and I still disagree, but different thread, shrug.

Yes Thermanshs is correct, normally you can, but they are teleporting too close to you for you to be able to withdraw without taking AoOs.

You run 200' towards the statues! (FYI, they are about about 300' away - the original 600' dimensional door, and 100' or so of you backing away when they were spiraling).

The Erinyes and devil attacking your retreating form (Erin: 5+14, 10+14 | Dev: 7+19) but miss!

They teleport into their previous posisitions, surrounding you.


----dd----
----dd----
----xx----
----xx----
--e----e--



Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 02:24 PM		Hmm... an ogre is not very different than a large human. Whatever the ogre can do the human should do as well.

There's a size-dichotomy here that I don't think is kosher:

Human A and Human B are fighting, up close and personal. Human B can disengage from Human A without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Human A and Human B are now both under the effect of "Enlarge person" and fighting up close and personal. Now Human B cannot disengage from Human A without provoking an attack of opportunity?!

Irrespective, those are the rules but it goes onto my 4th edition check-list for sure.
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 02:34 PM		Since there's no way to properly disengage then I'm going to run yet again, 200 feet towards the statues.
TaisharMalkier

06-22-04, 02:37 PM		Zug Zug.

"Human A and Human B are now both under the effect of "Enlarge person" and fighting up close and personal. Now Human B cannot disengage from Human A without provoking an attack of opportunity?! "

You could argue that two large creatures right next to each other is not proper reach - when you fight someone, you generally fight them at arm's length. Two large creatures standing within 5' is like two medium ones in the same square (which is very hard to do, at least have them fight - the only way I could think of was if you and your ally squeeze into the same square then someone dominates one of you) - who would also provoke an AoO from the other if they withdrew. At least thats my view of it.



Cheers
Beamup

06-22-04, 02:40 PM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
Hmm... an ogre is not very different than a large human. Whatever the ogre can do the human should do as well.

There's a size-dichotomy here that I don't think is kosher:

Human A and Human B are fighting, up close and personal. Human B can disengage from Human A without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Human A and Human B are now both under the effect of "Enlarge person" and fighting up close and personal. Now Human B cannot disengage from Human A without provoking an attack of opportunity?!

Irrespective, those are the rules but it goes onto my 4th edition check-list for sure.

Purely an artifact of the grid-based system. The analog to two Enlarged people fighting in adjacent squares would be two normal-sized people 2.5 feet apart (instead of 5). But you can't do that on the grid. The reason one produces an AoO and the other doesn't is NOT that the sizes are treated differently, it's that they are closer together (on their own scale) in one case than the other.
TaisharMalkier

06-22-04, 02:40 PM		Zug Zug.

You run 200' towards the statues! (FYI, they are about about 100' away - the original 600' dimensional door, and 100' or so of you backing away when they were spiraling).

The Erinyes and devil attacking your retreating form (Erin: 12+14, 12+14 | Dev: 11+19) but miss!

They teleport into their previous posisitions, surrounding you.


----dd----
----dd----
----xx----
----xx----
--e----e--



Cheers
Arindor

06-22-04, 03:05 PM		Don't mean to interfere but didn't I read that the Erinyes are carrying bows? Doesn't that mean they don't threaten and therefore can't make AoO? If I missed something never mind and carry on.
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 03:09 PM		I double move disengage from the erinyes and take cover (limited of course...) behind the first of the statues. I drop my component pouch on the ground (free action) near the foot of the statue where they can't see it and quicken a prestidigitation to dirty it the color of the statue rock and make the grass grow thick around it.
TaisharMalkier

06-22-04, 03:20 PM		Zug Zug.

"Don't mean to interfere but didn't I read that the Erinyes are carrying bows? Doesn't that mean they don't threaten and therefore can't make AoO? If I missed something never mind and carry on."

They drew their longswords on the move. It was a ways back.

"I double move disengage from the erinyes and take cover (limited of course...) behind the first of the statues. I drop my component pouch on the ground (free action) where they can't see it and quicken a prestidigitation to dirty it the color of rock and make the grass grow thick around it."

The devil takes a swipe at you (5 +19) but misses again! You move behind a statue, then drop your spell component pouch on the ground (Sleight of Hand 5+2+4 (cover), Spot 12+16, 4+16, 4+25) but you are fairly certain they saw you drop it.

The Erinyes and the devil take off and fly 50' towards you - remaining just off the ground. The devil breathes a cone of cold at you (SR 8+13) but fails to overcome your SR! The Erinyes watch you, ready to strike.


EDIT: Added Spell Component Action


Cheers
Thermanshs

06-22-04, 03:27 PM		for the human A and human B examples I agree with Taishar.
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 03:40 PM		I'll quicken a daylight spell to draw their readied action.
I'll then pull out my scroll of forcecage and take a 5 foot step towards the coupled statues. I squeeze against them and forececage myself and the statues into a windowless 10 by 10 cell of force. There will be no room at all for them to teleport in.
TaisharMalkier

06-22-04, 05:08 PM		Zug Zug.

Ok, what are you going to do till your Polymorph wears off (which is what, like 13 minutes from now?).


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 07:13 PM		Well if I were a real wizard I would likely just make a wall of stone when it wears off, sleep and re-memorise and get the hell out of here, so Ialldor would be safe. But that's not the spirit of the challenges and everyone knows it's hard to kill a high level wizard.

I pull out my scroll of magic jar and attempt to posses a weak life force and then the strong life force and then the other weak life force, from the gem in my component pouch.
PhaedrusXY

06-22-04, 07:19 PM		If you don't want me butting in here, just say so and I'll stop...

I still don't understand exactly the order of actions for the devils. Are you condensing 2 rounds into 1 description? Just because they readied an action doesn't mean they get to go twice in a round, every round. Which is what it seems they are doing, unless you are condensing things for the sake of brevity.

If they ready an action, it takes up their action for that round. If the trigger they readied for doesn't happen before it is their turn again, they lose their action. If it does, the readied action occurs and their turn is over for that round. They get their turn on the next round as normal. If they ready an action every round, then that's all they get to do.

They can't both ready an action to cast Unholy Blight AND teleport every round. From all appearances that is what you are having them do. Please explain exactly the order of their actions, if this is not the case. I do not understand how they are doing what you say they are.
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 07:26 PM		I think he got the order of actions correct Phaedrus but I'll let him explain.

I've actually been searching for something I could have sworn I saw at some point that said if you ready an action then you can't make attacks of opportunity. I'm probably dreaming that up or it has been a houserule somewhen...
Sylvain

06-22-04, 07:32 PM		Originally posted by Thermanshs
we're trying to make this battle fair you know...and this full energy damage thing doesn't sound that logical to me(since the SRD says so TOO) but I have to admit what taishar pointed out that D&D generally trades realism for game balance
I think Wizards of the Coast trades realism for balance (a sad way of doing things in my opinion; I'm waiting for the Death Star to be taken out of SWd20 - it's obviously 'broken').
I personally think realism should usually overrule 'balance'.
Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
I agree with you in terms of realism. However, D&D isn't realistic.
It can be. In fact, I think before Wizards of the Coast took over, it was supposed to be.
Van Richten's Guide to the Created mentions that all golems - regardless of what materials they are made of - are incredibly resistant to damage. It seems only logical that a magical or animated object have the same (or higher) resistances than a mundane one.
I know that we're all past that, but my computer was infected with spyware (there are things worse than gelugons and erinyes even here on Earth) and so I haven't been on for a while. I just wanted to throw that in so sorry again for interrupting.
:)
TaisharMalkier

06-22-04, 07:50 PM		Zug Zug.

"I still don't understand exactly the order of actions for the devils. Are you condensing 2 rounds into 1 description? Just because they readied an action doesn't mean they get to go twice in a round, every round. Which is what it seems they are doing, unless you are condensing things for the sake of brevity. "

I want you to show me an example of where they do 2 actions in one round. The last time what happened was they took a move action, then readied an action. Iallador ran and they got their readied action. Then they went and teleported. I fail to see how that is not as the rules were intended.

"I pull out my scroll of magic jar and attempt to posses a weak life force and then the strong life force and then the other weak life force, from the gem in my component pouch."

BTW, just checked, you have it marked as a material component, and its a focus. Not that it matters much.

I assume you are talking about the devils. If so:

"While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of exsistence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures"

So you are unable to attempt to possess them while the forcecage is up, as it blocks line of effect.

EDIT: I can't spell possess


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-22-04, 08:07 PM		That's why I dropped it and then took a 5 ft. step ;)
Thermanshs

06-22-04, 08:43 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
I want you to show me an example of where they do 2 actions in one round. The last time what happened was they took a move action, then readied an action. Iallador ran and they got their readied action. Then they went and teleported. I fail to see how that is not as the rules were intended.
I'm not sure if I 100% understood what you said but Phaedrus remarks were all correct except from:When you ready an action and your triggered action goes off then you play again NOT on your REGULAR turn but after everyone else plays after your readied action.
So the shift changes when a readied action goes off in short terms.
ALSO:When your readied action is TRIGGERED you can do NOTHING apart from performing your readied action that round.NOT EVEN a 5ft. step.All you can do after your action goes off is wait till your turn comes again and you can act normally.


Originally posted by Sylvain think Wizards of the Coast trades realism for balance (a sad way of doing things in my opinion; I'm waiting for the Death Star to be taken out of SWd20 - it's obviously 'broken').
I personally think realism should usually overrule 'balance'.
Oh we SO MUCH agree.And I try keep realism over balance whenever I can in ma games.No matter how ridiculus it is for a 1st level barbarian cutting the head of a 20th lvl one it CAN HAPPEN DAMMIT! That was just an example :P
TaisharMalkier

06-23-04, 03:05 AM		Zug Zug.

Hmm, ate my reply.

"I'm not sure if I 100% understood what you said but Phaedrus remarks were all correct except from:When you ready an action and your triggered action goes off then you play again NOT on your REGULAR turn but after everyone else plays after your readied action.
So the shift changes when a readied action goes off in short terms.
ALSO:When your readied action is TRIGGERED you can do NOTHING apart from performing your readied action that round.NOT EVEN a 5ft. step.All you can do after your action goes off is wait till your turn comes again and you can act normally."

You are incorrect. When your readied action goes off, your iniative changes to when it went off (or just before the person who set it off's iniative). The turn basically is as this:

Devil Goes
Erinyes Ready action
Iallador sets off readied action (Erinyes ini changed to just before Iallador).

The next turn they are free to act, as they haven't acted that turn yet. Only when their readied actions happen before their iniative on a round can they not act.

Anyways, I forgot the numbers, but they are posted, anyways, you possess the Erinyes without Unholy Aura.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-23-04, 08:47 AM		Although I would like to jump for joy at my apparent change in fortune, I cannot but play fair, and so I inform you that I can still fail SR which is not trivial because it's a scroll that I didn't up in caster level on my sheet (although I'm 100% sure I intended to do so with the cash left over from my should-be-non-existent scroll of false-vision, but that's really my problem...). So as written on my character sheet that's a 5th level spell, minimum character level 9 vs SR 20, I need an 11. Let's roll!

*crossing fingers* *crossing fingers* *crossing fingers*
:schemes:

Hasn't it been many many rounds now for the others to still be protected by unholy aura?

(project image round, dispel round, enervation, run, stone to flesh, run, run, double move, hide in forcecage, cast magic jar, possession) = 11 rounds.
That was by and large my intent for the running and incurring all those attacks of opportunity, to drag them into a purely offensive mode of thinking (as well as positioning in my major creation statues being better).

They really should have flanked me back there. The gelugon would have hit me. ;)
Erple2

06-23-04, 09:51 AM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster


Hasn't it been many many rounds now for the others to still be protected by unholy aura?

(project image round, dispel round, enervation, run, stone to flesh, run, run, double move, hide in forcecage, cast magic jar, possession) = 11 rounds.


The Unholy Aura is an 'at will' function for the gelugon, it can re-initiate it at any time (as a standard action!), affecting itself and up to <caster level> other creatures in a 20 foot burst around it. It will still last for <caster level> rounds, however...


They really should have flanked me back there. The gelugon would have hit me. ;)

I'm surprised at how few people make use of flanking. It seems that people are, in fact, UNWILLING to get into flanking positions, for some unknown reason. They will purposely not move the extra 5 feet to give someone on their next turn flanking. Course, I've really only noticed that with players, and NOT the DM. What's even stranger, are those same DM's, when they are players, don't try to take advantage of flanking, citing silly things like "That non-spellcasting troglodyte in full plate armor and heavy shield with an AC of 31 that gets only one attack per round, who I've successfully saved vs it's stench, might take an attack of opportunity against my 9th level fighter with AC of 28 so I don't want to move the extra 5 feet to get around it" as justifications... Sheesh! I guess some people don't know when "taking one for the team" really IS justified.
DungeonMaster

06-23-04, 10:08 AM		Indeed Erple, but it has been many rounds, and they were flying 50 feet apart for quite some time before while searching for me.

While they could have bunched together for that spell, as Taishar told me they did but he didn't post it, the likelihood that they did it 1 round before meeting me is pretty slim?

If I fail to posses this erinyes I'm going to try for the other one actually, not the big devil. I'll go for him last.

I've never seen reticence towards flanking in any D&D game I've played. In my games people learn really fast that falling prone when engaging in purely missile combat is a priority, not just an option, and the lowly crossbow is then a useful weapon. Likewise flanking, higher ground and other positional modifiers are key to success, survival. Even simple yet effective tactics like "aid-another" are very useful! 10 crappy hobgoblins with a leader might not seem like a real threat until they give their leader +10-20 to his attacks and he power attacks full force...
orp

06-23-04, 10:55 AM		That's a really cool idea, the "aid another". Never thought of it myself. My poor, poor players...
Thermanshs

06-23-04, 12:49 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
You are incorrect. When your readied action goes off, your iniative changes to when it went off (or just before the person who set it off's iniative).
You said exactly the same thing but expressed in other words.
Erple2

06-23-04, 04:29 PM		Originally posted by Thermanshs
You said exactly the same thing but expressed in other words.
OK, but Taishar's explanation was a lot easier for me to understand :)

Essentially, you act on your readied action, and your action is done for this round. Your initiative changes to just before the action that triggered the readied action. I didn't think that your explanation was all that clear.

Oh well! Now to see what happens to Ialldor...
Thermanshs

06-23-04, 08:40 PM		actually Taishar's definition was the same as per the PH.I tried to express it the way it would be more sound to one that could even have no previous experience with the system.But I think I failed :(
TaisharMalkier

06-24-04, 03:38 AM		Zug Zug.

You attempt to possess the Erinyes (we'll say that unholy aura is off all of them - thou I think a few more rounds are left) as a full round action you succeed ! (19 + 9).

What would you like to do?


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-24-04, 11:49 AM		Assuming the positioning is the same as earlier - large devil 100 feet out and the two erinyes 50 feet forward and 50 feet up - then I'm going to swoop down and grab my component pouch. I'll listen to the telepathic commands and chatter they send my way of course and motion the large devil to stay back with my hand and the other erinyes to come forward to see what's in the pouch.

I'll pay attention to the erinyes' way of addressing the large devil (my lord, my commander, etc... before saying anything).
TaisharMalkier

06-24-04, 06:01 PM		Zug Zug.

Sorry I didn't mention where they were. As I mentioned previous, they are all on the ground. Wait that post got eaten. Anyways...they are all standing outside your forcecage in a cluster.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-24-04, 08:18 PM		Hmm... it must have gotten eaten because I didn't see you mention they moved. No matter, I estimated they would probably be poking about the wall of force to find a way in.

Do I get a surprise round for this hijinx? ;) I sure would accord one!

Are they sending any telepathic messages to me? Any names, curses, complaints?

I fly back 50 feet and hit them both with confusion DC: 22.
TaisharMalkier

06-24-04, 11:46 PM		Zug Zug.

I thought your spell component pouch was on the ground? I haven't had you do the previous post yet, because I didn't say where they were, etc. Did you want to:

"Assuming the positioning is the same as earlier - large devil 100 feet out and the two erinyes 50 feet forward and 50 feet up - then I'm going to swoop down and grab my component pouch. I'll listen to the telepathic commands and chatter they send my way of course and motion the large devil to stay back with my hand and the other erinyes to come forward to see what's in the pouch.

I'll pay attention to the erinyes' way of addressing the large devil (my lord, my commander, etc... before saying anything)."


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-25-04, 08:41 AM		Arg. I'm lost again. My pouch is still on the ground? I'll pick it up gingerly and "investigate it" cursing in infernal. Then I'll hit them with confusion and fly back 50 feet.
That is the simple plan without knowing detailed positioning or how you're breaking things up here in terms of rounds, surprise round or whatever and these actions do count a lot of course.
TaisharMalkier

06-25-04, 06:09 PM		Zug Zug.

Doing it round by round for now (you'll see why in a sec).

You head to your pouch and pick it up, cursing in infernal. Unfortunately, you didn't realize they haven't said a word out loud yet - presumably communicating telepathically. They look at you (erinyes) then look at the unconscious mage in the force cage (that's just in character - OOC, sense motive to determine charm/dominate, 4+23, 18+16). The ice devil moves over to you and attempts to start a grapple (touch attack can't miss, Ice devil grapple check 13+24, your grapple check 20+12). You are now grappled.

The Erinyes moves over as well and attempts to Charm Monster but you save! (Will save 15+12).

EDIT: Note: while you haven't exactly charmed/dominated it, I thought it fit the best - the only other thing that would work would be opposed Disguise / Spot checks, which in this case would be impossible for you to pass.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-26-04, 12:46 PM		Hrmm... I certainly didn't say I was cursing "out loud". I was specifically listening for telepathic messages about curses, names and so forth but you never replied to me about that. If they're all sitting there in silence I'm definitely not an idiot and going to break the silence.

I think the sense motive check for determining possession is fair and reasonable considering there is no mechanic for determining it. That should probably follow the same rules then, taking a minute or more to get a real grip on the situation. I can understand immediate action as long as there's an obvious clue or cue that something's wrong (like me hitting them with a spell of course :p ). I'm a bit doubtful even in the advent that I were to curse out loud, which I didn't do, that that would trigger a devil's warning sensors - aren't these fiends from the pits of hell? Isn't blasphemy their game? That's of course entirely at your discretion I would just find it very odd even were they reading my mind to be surprised by blasphemous thoughts. (A heavy circumstance modifier to the check? like -10?)

I know they changed the grapple rules in 3.5, but I don't remember to what they changed the rules to. Regardless of the outcome, can the devil grapple me while still holding it's huge spear? or does it have to first drop it? Also when you get a hold in 3rd edition you do damage as per an unarmed strike and that doesn't seem to be the case here?
In 3rd edition you move into the target's square as well, if there's not enough room you can't grapple, just hold. Can the gelugon move into my square between the force-cage and statues?
Although there is a slim chance, any attack roll can miss on a roll of a 1 so it's not trivial to not roll it.
orp

06-27-04, 08:45 AM		I remeber reading somewhere that when you possess a new body, all the spells that are in effect on your person move with you.

That's because the spells are cast on "you", not on the body.

I don't think there are any core rules on this - it's a matter of interpretation.
TaisharMalkier

06-27-04, 01:17 PM		Zug Zug.

Apparently I wasn't clear.

"Hrmm... I certainly didn't say I was cursing "out loud". I was specifically listening for telepathic messages about curses, names and so forth but you never replied to me about that. If they're all sitting there in silence I'm definitely not an idiot and going to break the silence. "

Well, I had to assume it, considering you can't curse telepathically, because you can't use it's ability. Regardless, the check would have happened anyways.

"I think the sense motive check for determining possession is fair and reasonable considering there is no mechanic for determining it. That should probably follow the same rules then, taking a minute or more to get a real grip on the situation. I can understand immediate action as long as there's an obvious clue or cue that something's wrong (like me hitting them with a spell of course :p ). I'm a bit doubtful even in the advent that I were to curse out loud, which I didn't do, that that would trigger a devil's warning sensors - aren't these fiends from the pits of hell? Isn't blasphemy their game? That's of course entirely at your discretion I would just find it very odd even were they reading my mind to be surprised by blasphemous thoughts. (A heavy circumstance modifier to the check? like -10?) "

While there isn't one for Possession, there is for Charm and Dominate, and Disguise/Spot checks for acting. I think these are close enough. Spot check dosen't take an action at all, and I think sensing an enchantment wouldn't take that long. Even if they had a -10 modifier, they would have passed. Disguise prolly would have fit better (Disguise check to impersonate someone) which they also would have beat you. Shrug.

"I know they changed the grapple rules in 3.5, but I don't remember to what they changed the rules to. Regardless of the outcome, can the devil grapple me while still holding it's huge spear? or does it have to first drop it? Also when you get a hold in 3rd edition you do damage as per an unarmed strike and that doesn't seem to be the case here? "

Yar, he dropped his spear. I forgot about it. What I'm talking about him grapling is the Erinyes you have possessed not you yourself (no he can't move into the space you are at in the forcecage).

Attack roll = 6.

"I remeber reading somewhere that when you possess a new body, all the spells that are in effect on your person move with you.

That's because the spells are cast on "you", not on the body.

I don't think there are any core rules on this - it's a matter of interpretation."

Shrug, I completely disagree. You still are casting an enchantment of some type on yourself - your spells just don't fly around with your consciousness. Regardless, we are playing RAW.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

06-27-04, 07:27 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Well, I had to assume it, considering you can't curse telepathically, because you can't use it's ability. Regardless, the check would have happened anyways.

No but I can sure curse in my head or under my breath, and I don't understand why they would get an immediate check to notice my possession of the erinyes by cursing any which way. I can certainly understand a check, but not instantaneous.


While there isn't one for Possession, there is for Charm and Dominate, and Disguise/Spot checks for acting. I think these are close enough. Spot check dosen't take an action at all, and I think sensing an enchantment wouldn't take that long. Even if they had a -10 modifier, they would have passed.

Sensing an enchantment takes at minimum a minute. Those are the rules as written. I'm not trying to impersonate the Erinyes, merely picking up a bag then hitting them with a spell and moving, 6 seconds. I'm not trying to act in character, not even talking to them, since you seem to indicate by not saying anything about it that they're clearly not talking/telepathing to me.


Yar, he dropped his spear. I forgot about it. What I'm talking about him grapling is the Erinyes you have possessed not you yourself (no he can't move into the space you are at in the forcecage).

I understand that, it's just that my bag is behind a statue which has 5 feet away a forcecage. There should only be 5 foot space of clearance where the component pouch is - even in the situation where you have them hit me without so much as an initiative roll it can't move into my square to grapple me because it's too small a space for it to fit in.

I agree with you fully that the spells in place should be on my own body and not my soul, even though there are no such rules in the book. That's a perfectly reasonable stance to take.
TaisharMalkier

06-27-04, 11:15 PM		Zug Zug.

"Sensing an enchantment takes at minimum a minute. Those are the rules as written. I'm not trying to impersonate the Erinyes, merely picking up a bag then hitting them with a spell and moving, 6 seconds. I'm not trying to act in character, not even talking to them, since you seem to indicate by not saying anything about it that they're clearly not talking/telepathing to me."

It says generally a minute, not always. Immediately many things would tip them off - the way you moved, if you didn't reply from things said previously, etc. I guess now that I think about it it would fit a disguise/spot check better, despite being an enchantment of some kind, as you are trying to act like the Erinyes.

"I understand that, it's just that my bag is behind a statue which has 5 feet away a forcecage. There should only be 5 foot space of clearance where the component pouch is - even in the situation where you have them hit me without so much as an initiative roll it can't move into my square to grapple me because it's too small a space for it to fit in. "

He can squeeze into it (you can squeeze into half your space, and as he's large, he can fit into a 5' square).

He didn't roll iniative because you were still going in iniative order. You went, then they went.


Cheers
orp

06-28-04, 08:27 AM		From the 3.0 FAQ:

"A personal range spell goes where you go. When you take over a body with magic jar, any personal range spell you had before the takeover goes with you..."

That's where I got it from.

It doesn't appear in the 3.5 FAQ, though.
DungeonMaster

06-28-04, 08:39 AM		Taishar I've agreed in the past with your rulings, even with those I don't actually agree with (readying a spell, counterspell, false vision, etc...). That's just being polite and I think that's critical to the success of D&D, that the player accept the DM's rulings, even the slightly nonsensical ones. It's part of the game and no real fruition comes out of arguing at every step.

Now I'm trying my best to politely refuse your current ruling. You can't just say "they instantly know you've possessed the Erinyes" and waffle between a sense motive check and a disguise check - only after I point out that it takes a fair deal of time to determine someone is enchanted/dominated. There is no RAW reason for them to be doing that, there isn't even a RAW way to detect possesion! You're making it up on the fly and in all ways it is penalising the wizard.

I don't even care that you basically positioned them right beside each other at the last moment without posting any such movement, that you refuse to have them telepathically communicating with me at all (despite now referencing that as a reason for why they'de instantly attack), that I don't even get a surprise round for something that is hellishly surprising at least in my books. Just roll the saves for confusion is all I'm asking and move me to where the damn gelugon can't charge me in 1 round. There's still a pretty good chance that neither are confused!

Fair is fair, they got to avoid 50% of my best magic, I kept them busy with a well thought out strategy to make them not think of defense while risking physical and magical injury for many rounds, now my luck has changed and they shouldn't suddenly be privy to made-up rules that make it amazingly easy for them to avoid my magic's brunt.
Thermanshs

06-28-04, 09:13 AM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
You can't just say "they instantly know you've possessed the Erinyes" and waffle between a sense motive check and a disguise check - only after I point out that it takes a fair deal of time to determine someone is enchanted/dominated. There is no RAW reason for them to be doing that, there isn't even a RAW way to detect possesion! You're making it up on the fly and in all ways it is penalising the wizard.
Agreed, figuring out when a person is enchanted sure takes some time and if it's not an hour then it's definitely not 6 secs.
Derlwyn

06-28-04, 02:54 PM		Excuse my interruption,

I must say, I have been a fan of this and the other challenge threads. I find them very entertaining and I find myself constantly checking back to see if the battle continues.

As a player that has yet to formally DM in a session, I naturally find that the DM is always against me and yadda yadda yadda. In truth I know that he is not and simply following the rules for a situation that I have managed to put myself in.

There have been times throughout the Devil part of this challenge where I have felt that TaisharMalkier is being somewhat anti-player. Though even those times are justified through a certain way a reading the rules. This time, however, I think that TaisharMalkier realized that DungeonMaster has come up with a wicked strategy that will spell doom for his devils and they too will go the way of the Retrievers. At the risk of sounding like a player, I think the DM (meaning TaisharMalkier, not DungeonMaster) is wrong in this case.

TM, at times you have neglected to correctly respond to things that DM has wanted to know:
I'll pay attention to the erinyes' way of addressing the large devil (my lord, my commander, etc... before saying anything).

You never say that he hears any of this, therefor he would not speak until he knew the proper way to speak.

Are they sending any telepathic messages to me? Any
names, curses, complaints?

Now to give you credit TM, you do say:
I haven't had you do the previous post yet, because I didn't say where they were, etc. Did you want to:

However, DM was so confued by this point he decided to take the initiative and progress this challenge rather than waiting for another non-comittal repsonse. I applaud DM (Dungeonmaster)for his tactics and his uncanny ability to deal with the rulings that TM has made. In my opinion, TM, you either need to just take the scenario back to just after DM has possesed the Erinyes, or like DM has requested, move him to a position where the Geulgon can't charge him right away. If not for a sense of clarity as to what the heck is going on, then at least in the interest to keep this challenge thread going. I'm not sure for how much longer DM will continue with this.

Thank You
TaisharMalkier

06-29-04, 02:51 AM		Zug Zug.

I didn't reply about any conversation as there was none. I pointed out above that sense motive is usually, not always. In this particular case it seems unlikely that it would take very long considering they've been standing next to the devil the entire time. Sense motive is typically when you don't know the person very well - in this case, there is a drastic difference in how they act. I'll compromise on this but I still believe that that isn't how its suppose to go according to the rules.

You attempt to cast confusion on the devils and move back 30' (you are now around 60' away from them, with a couple statues in the middle between you). (Spell Resistance can't fail, 18+19, Will saves 15+10, 1+15, the Ice Devil is confused).

The Ice Devil moves 40' towards you and breathes a cone of cold (Confusion Roll = 9/100). He overcomes your SR with ease (20 + 13) - you attempt to deftly dodge, but you are unused to this new body and falter (3+9) - you take 35.5 (13d6-10) points of cold damage (35.5/85 hp).

The Erinyes moves 30' to the side and attempts to charm Monster - (Will save 11+12) but you resist.


Cheers
Qube

06-29-04, 09:13 AM		"instead of trying to find broken spells: try combining spells: acid fog (limmits enemy speed to 5 ft, deals 2d6 acid damage) + summon monster (something with acid resistance, like a tannari).

try using spells with diffrent saves (memorize hold person (will), fireball (reflex), poison (fort)), or no save (summoning) for creatures with spell resistance.

try using spells in a second way (instead of trying to dissintegrate the monster with the good fortitude save: dissintegrate the floor: instant pitt trap)

shoot melfs acid arrows on enemy casters (they must make concentration checks for continues damage) or summon a monster with grappling to prevent casting

do NOT underestimate the unseen servant: he can 'detect' traps, enemies, ... he is a henchmen for half a day for only a lvl 1 spell (in combination with augmented summoning he becomes even more usefull)

the use of presize shot (no -4 if target is in melee) or magic missle is not to be underestimated for a summoner

do not mistake conjuration and summoning: a spell-focus conjuration doesn't help the summonings, but it aids melfs acid arrow, fogs, ...
later you can take the augmented summoning feat to boost up your beasts

a metarod of quickening is what the doctor orders in allmost any situation: the great problem with summoning is that it takes a full round: use the metarod to cast the first spell it in a standard action. and make sure that the summonend monster stopts the enemy from approaching you: this will give you the advantage of having the ability to cast the next summonspell as a full round action

do not engage in every combat: every class has its dissavantages: even the raging barbarian with a +5 vorpal briiliant energy forst burst shocking burst elfenbane holy greataxe stands helpless against an elfen archer on a clif. Try not to engage demons and devils (their teleportationskills, spell and other resistances can be fatal for any conjuror who forgets to summon celestials), nor beholders with their antimagic cones

a final word:
'A lone mage is doomed to die, while a summoner's friend are never far away' "


- Rafe, master summoner "why none survive the summoner"
DungeonMaster

06-29-04, 08:32 PM		Thank you Taishar. We both agree on the use of sense motive as appropriate for the situation, it's just the speed at which the skill can be used to determine something is very very wrong that is contentious. While I'm certain it's possible to invent a whole lot of backstory to have the other devils react instantly to my picking up a bag - I think the general opinion is more time would be required in the average situation, like the skill indicates as an average of 1 minute.

In third edition it was a hard set minimum of one minute, not generally one minute to gain information from a subject so there is certainly room to interpret sense motive as instantaneous in 3.5. I understand where you're coming from, it's just very much in disfavor of the wizard to have it work that way in this exceptional circumstance not even technically covered by the skill.


I'll take a 5 foot step forward in infernal I'll say "run now or you will be next - live to see another day for I am too much for your to handle, you have been deceived..." as I commit suicide in dramatic fashion so as to chill their blood, a full round action coup-de-grace, driving my sword deep down my throat until the vile black blood froths through devil fangs, falling forward on my knees and covering the bleeding form with convulsing wings. I chose to fail the fortitude save to survive the coup-de-grace.
I will regain possesion of my body and turn to face the erinyes a look of cold pure death in my eyes.
TaisharMalkier

06-30-04, 03:06 AM		Zug Zug.

The Erinyes flys 100' straight up in the air. The Ice Devil attacks the forgecage futilely (91).


Cheers
Qube

06-30-04, 05:19 AM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
I chose to fail the fortitude save to survive the coup-de-grace.
[/B]

you can't choose to fail the fortitude save of coup-de-grace: it is not a spell. As far as i know, you can only choose to fail the save of a spell

reality: you can try to commit suicide, but it can fail.
Mutu

06-30-04, 08:25 AM		Originally posted by Qube
you can't choose to fail the fortitude save of coup-de-grace: it is not a spell. As far as i know, you can only choose to fail the save of a spell

reality: you can try to commit suicide, but it can fail.

Well while it is arguable that you can fail a suicide, i do think (when you dont care at all about the body you are in) jamming a sword down your throat will probably kill you :)
Qube

06-30-04, 11:13 AM		Originally posted by Mutu
Well while it is arguable that you can fail a suicide, i do think (when you dont care at all about the body you are in) jamming a sword down your throat will probably kill you :)

but jamming a sword down your enemies throat woun't?
Mutu

06-30-04, 11:19 AM		Originally posted by Qube
but jamming a sword down your enemies throat woun't?

Yeah i would assume it would...

and say i do a coup and chop off an elfs head... explain how a fort save would allow them to survive that?

if there is a Fort save for coups (on immobile creatures, esp those who are unconsious) my group doesnt use it, losing your head you die no fort save :)
Qube

06-30-04, 11:26 AM		Point taken
Mutu

06-30-04, 11:29 AM		Man i love this thread...

very impressive way to break morale AND kill one of the arch evil fiends :)

cat wait to see what happens next :)
DungeonMaster

06-30-04, 03:16 PM		Hmm... I don't have my books with me (and have been very busy of late) and I was always under the impression you could fail any saving throw willingly, regardless if it's a spell, a pit-trap, or anything in fact. Isn't there a rule that you can always allow yourself to be hit as well? Maybe I'm thinking second edition but that definitely needs to be in there otherwise it leads to absurdity. "Hit my bare immobile neck, I swear you'll miss 1 out of 20 times!". I know the coup-de-grace does not require an attack roll.

I'de say roll it and if it comes out as a 20 then we can all have a good laugh at how my wizard was not able to kill himself! Otherwise the damage would be 2d8+14 two handed and thus average DC 33 so it can't survive without a 20. If I were really a min-maxer I probably would have risen to 100 feet and plummeted as a guided missile to my death on top of one of the other devils. But I prefer this "death" for it's appeal and flourish.

Wouldn't the gelugon just babble incoherently since he can't attack me?

I will dismiss my forecage and move 40 feet towards the fallen erinyes. I'll have my familiar jump out and grab my component pouch.
TaisharMalkier

07-01-04, 04:43 AM		Zug Zug.

"Wouldn't the gelugon just babble incoherently since he can't attack me? "

Shrug, it's arguable (not that it matters much). I think the way they say it they try to do the action if it's possible, otherwise they babble. Given that it theoretically possible to attack you, he tried to. Shrug.

I'm fine with it failing automatically. I'm not certain on the rules, nor do I care much.

You dismiss the force cage and move towards the dead Erinyes. You have your familiar move to it, and pick up the pouch. Next turn he can bring it to you and you can take your normal actions.

The erinyes continues to fly away from you. She now is quite a distance away from you (maybe 300').

The ice devil (17) attempts to summon some bone devils to aid him (25) - 2 bone devils appear next to him.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

07-01-04, 09:51 AM		I step forward 40 feet towards the ice-devil and the erinyes and maximized-empowered lightning bolt them!

If my trig is right then I should be able to hit them both with my 250 foot long stroke of lightning arced upwards. If necessary I combat cast the spell. (I don't think I can fail)

Summoning takes a full round, as a spell-like ability it's just like a spell, he may need to make one heck of a concentration check. It also doesn't threaten opponents while summoning.
Qube

07-02-04, 01:27 PM		Originally posted by DungeonMaster
Hmm... I don't have my books with me (and have been very busy of late) and I was always under the impression you could fail any saving throw willingly, regardless if it's a spell, a pit-trap, or anything in fact. Isn't there a rule that you can always allow yourself to be hit as well? Maybe I'm thinking second edition but that definitely needs to be in there otherwise it leads to absurdity. "Hit my bare immobile neck, I swear you'll miss 1 out of 20 times!". I know the coup-de-grace does not require an attack roll.


well, you can try and take the hit, but if the other guy is so incompetent that he could even hit a wall with a touch attack (a lvl 1 wiz who has STR 6 and fumbles his attack toll (so an attack of -1) you could say ...

i play that you can willingly fail a save vs spell (because the PHB says so) and you can willingly fail a reflex-save (just try and get hit) or a will save (you put up no resistance in your mind), but you can't controll your oun body: ontherwise some of the players would get drunk after 1 glass of the cheapest ale.
TaisharMalkier

07-03-04, 04:19 AM		Zug Zug.

"If my trig is right then I should be able to hit them both with my 250 foot long stroke of lightning arced upwards. If necessary I combat cast the spell. (I don't think I can fail)"

I mentioned the Erinyes was 300' away from you. As try as I might, I can't imagine how you can hit both with a 250' shot of lightning...

Spell like abilities are a standard action unless otherwise noted. It's not otherwise noted. I looked up Summon and in no way did it even imply that it took more then a standard action.

What did you want to do taking in mind what I posted?


Cheers
Thermanshs

07-03-04, 07:16 AM		I think that would be a full round action becase this ability is the equivalent of the spell...but that's just me...
DungeonMaster

07-03-04, 09:56 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
I mentioned the Erinyes was 300' away from you. As try as I might, I can't imagine how you can hit both with a 250' shot of lightning...

Hmm... I thought you said she flew 100 feet up and then flew to be roughly 300 feet away from me. She can't move faster than 200 feet a round, and can't climb faster than 100 feet a round, even at a full run.
So I assumed she moved 100 feet up and 200 feet away as fast as she can, in which case she's fried if I move 40 feet forward and cast it.

Unless there was a gross miscalculation made then spell like abilities function much like spells and in the 3rd edition PHB it states clearly on p.158:
"A spell like ability has a casting time of 1-action unless otherwise noted in the ability or the spell description ."
Otherwise you have astral projection illithid taking over the universe very very quickly. ;)
All summon spells have 1 round casting time, regardless of level.

Of course I could be wrong and this is another 3rd to 3.5 change.

I'll wait and see if anyone can find anything else concerning this change and if it's as you describe I'll whip out my scroll of mislead and cast it instead of lightning bolt.
I'm away for a couple of days, probably till late monday, going to a conference in Vancouver.
Derlwyn

07-03-04, 03:10 PM		Just my 2pp,

I believe there are two ways to interpret the Summon spell-like ability. In the MM it states that using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless otherwise noted, that provokes an AoO unless used when casting defensively. It does not say anything in the Ice Devil description that says it takes more than a standard action.

However, the spell Summon states that it takes a full round action. Also the Summon (Sp) in the MM states that the ability can summon other creatures as though casting a Summon Monster spell, implying that it requires a full-round action.

Could go either way IMHO, and in situations like this the DM gets the final say.

I don't think the Erinyes could be 300ft away. Using the Run x4 rules and flying (and the positioning over the last few rounds), it could only be max 210ft away if she flew straight up both rounds. If she flew 100ft up in the first round and 200ft away in the second (again using the positioning from the last few rounds), she be around 285 ft away. If he takes a 40ft move in its direction he would be close enough to use the 250ft lightning bolt.
TaisharMalkier

07-05-04, 04:40 AM		Zug Zug.

""A spell like ability has a casting time of 1-action unless otherwise noted in the ability or the spell description ." "

There is no spell summon baatzeru (or wtf you spell it). Nowhere in any of my books can I find where anything with summon in the title takes a full round to cast.

Nowhere did I continue to say she flew straight up. I said away from him, which I guess I should have clarified. Regardless, the point is that he wanted to hit both the ice devil and the erinyes. Considering he's standing fairly close to the ice devil now, I fail to see how you could move 40' and hit both. If you want though, you can burn the chick.


Cheers
Thermanshs

07-05-04, 06:10 AM		Yeah.....neither do I know a summon baatzeru spell....
There IS however a spell like ability called summon baatezu that almost every baatezu has access.And the MM states that it's the equivalent of a x level spell. So now the problem is if this is stated for detecting purposes etc. or if this indicates that this ability's duration is the same as the spell.
Anyways, I'm dropping a line to wizards customers' service for more info.
PhaedrusXY

07-05-04, 06:21 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
""A spell like ability has a casting time of 1-action unless otherwise noted in the ability or the spell description ." "

There is no spell summon baatzeru (or wtf you spell it). Nowhere in any of my books can I find where anything with summon in the title takes a full round to cast.ALL the Summon Monster spells have a casting time of 1 round. Look in your PHB again. Summon Baatezu is basically a variation of a Summon Monster spell that only summons other devils. And as has already been pointed out, spell-like abilities function the same as the spells they reproduce, unless otherwise noted. Here is the relavent quote from the 3.5 SRD on that: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.

<snip>

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

If you say the devils can use their summoning ability as a standard action, I call foul on this one. There is no way that is not you interpreting things unfairly against the player. On everything else I could see things from both sides, but not here.
Thermanshs

07-05-04, 06:28 AM		Oh! Thanks Phaedrus! And I wondered where the heck this text originated! Anyways I sent the feedback so that the authors could have the final word.
Ghallen

07-05-04, 10:15 AM		By "the authors" you don't mean Cust Serv, do you?
Beamup

07-05-04, 11:26 AM		Originally posted by PhaedrusXY
Summon Baatezu is basically a variation of a Summon Monster spell that only summons other devils.

The thing is, though, this is not explicit. They are both [summoning] effects with the word "Summon" in the name. This does not necessarily mean that they are the same spell.

It's certainly a reasonable position that Summon Baatezu is based on summon monster, but since there is no explicit statement that this is the case, it's also possible to conclude that it isn't directly based on any spell, and so defaults to a standard action. OTOH, unless you conclude that Summon Baatezu is based on summon monster, there is no way to set a duration for it.

All in all, either interpretation is at least credible. Equating it to summon monster is certainly the cleaner and more obvious choice, since that sets its duration, but it's not 100% clear.
Thermanshs

07-05-04, 03:05 PM		Originally posted by Ghallen
By "the authors" you don't mean Cust Serv, do you?
Customers service yes...I mentioned it on the post before the one you commented.
DungeonMaster

07-05-04, 07:08 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
The Erinyes flys 100' straight up in the air. The Ice Devil attacks the forgecage futilely.


I'm back! I think you did say she flew straight up as the above quote so I'm not sure how she can move out of range. I would very much like to fry her some with this lightning bolt.

I don't think it's 100% fair however that I keep retracting my statements of actions contingent on rules applications. I will boldly step forward and fry them both regardless because I said so. It would be good however tedious to have a mini-map of positioning since this gets to be contentious and is important with all these ranged and area effects.

If Derlwyn could provide a 3.5 MM page number to back up that Summon, regardless of type is as though casting a summon monster spell then I think it's 1 round to use and can thus be disrupted by my lightning bolt. We are trying to play as close to the rules as intended with as little DM interpretation added as possible.

I think as a summon spell the summoned creatures get to act immediately, which might benefit the gelugon if my lightning bolt happens to fizzle on his SR. Of course they might have to deal with the gelugon in person too because of his current affliction... ;)
Derlwyn

07-06-04, 03:00 AM		The Summon(Sp) in the MM is in the glossary on page 315. The fact that it says the ability can summon creatures as though casting a Summon Monster Spell IMHO means that it would take a full round. Though, it also implies that the spell-like ability is like a summon monster spell in the sense that it can summon a creature. :confused: The wording is not clear in any sense. I would say regardless that it takes a full-round, but I am not DM'ing.

DungeonMaster, if you are hoping that the spell might be disrupted, judging from the history of the rolls, I don't think it would ever happen. Considering the Ice Devil succeeded in the 50% chance of the spell failing in the first place, and it also succeeded in a pretty high concentration check to cast on the defensive (otherwise drawing an AoO), and all while confused mind you.

We are trying to play as close to the rules as intended with as little DM interpretation added as possible
Heh, isn't that comment in violation of rule 0? Could it be true D&D without DM interpretation??

Anywho, keep this challenge up, and on the up and up, I love it!
Thermanshs

07-06-04, 08:27 AM		Originally posted by Derlwyn
Heh, isn't that comment in violation of rule 0? Could it be true D&D without DM interpretation??
Yes it IS true.The DM isn't kind of god in a game.He MUST be objective not only going by the rules but keeping all things said consistent,so his only special role is to be the all-knower.
Having the last word? Yes.Only in special and unclear cases or when players debate among them about stupid things.
Archangel

07-06-04, 10:21 AM		3 things:
- Wizard has 2 hp more then it should (since he added con bonus as he was lvl 15)
- Wizard has created numerous items but has not payed any XP (he should be lvl 13)
- Wizard uses his lesser Metamagic Rods with too high a level of spells (like empowered Enervation a 4 + 2 = 6 lvl spell)!
- at one time DM rolled a SR check and got 1+19=20 and said it missed but there is no critical miss on as SR check and Errines has SR 20!
Thermanshs

07-06-04, 11:17 AM		- Wizard has 2 hp more then it should (since he added con bonus as he was lvl 15)
Dunno...really?
- Wizard has created numerous items but has not payed any XP (he should be lvl 13)
He has,that's per the rules Taishar set.
- at one time DM rolled a SR check and got 1+19=20 and said it missed but there is no critical miss on as SR check and Errines has SR 20!
Yeah,there's no failure on 1's for SR checks.
DungeonMaster

07-06-04, 04:14 PM		You're right Archangel, I do have listed 2 more hp. :embarrass
My mistake, I will correct it as soon as this current combat is over. I must have mistook my caster level and character level in that breif instant because I got the rolled hitpoints correct.
My empowered enervation is not from rod, I have it memorized as such (and it unfortunately failed).
Metamagic applied to a spell does not change any level dependent effects. A maximized empowered fireball takes up an 8th level slot but remains a 3rd level spell, with a DC of 10 + 3 (level) + etc... It fails to affect even someone protected by a minor globe of invulnerability, while cone of cold would go straight through. Thus a minor metamagic rod can maximize an empowered lightning bolt because it's only a level 3 spell, despite taking up a 5th level slot, it's still only a 3rd level spell.
Quite generally metamagic rods are considered horribly broken, but in this sort of challenge I'm more than glad to have them on my side. :D
They effectively give me many higher level spell slots that I couldn't otherwise be casting.
Archangel

07-07-04, 03:09 AM		- Wizard has created numerous items but has not payed any XP (he should be lvl 13)
He has,that's per the rules Taishar set.

If those are the rules then this fights are not by the core rules as was the purpose of this thread. It is all a one big House Rule!

Metamagic applied to a spell does not change any level dependent effects. A maximized empowered fireball takes up an 8th level slot but remains a 3rd level spell, with a DC of 10 + 3 (level) + etc... It fails to affect even someone protected by a minor globe of invulnerability, while cone of cold would go straight through. Thus a minor metamagic rod can maximize an empowered lightning bolt because it's only a level 3 spell, despite taking up a 5th level slot, it's still only a 3rd level spell.

How did you come up with this? Metamagic rod is just like using a normal feat but it is free and does not increase spell level. And when you use 2 metamagic feats without the rod you just pile spell slot adjustment of first before determining the final spell slot after using the second MM feat. So it's the same with a Rod, you add a metamagic adjustment to the original spell level and if it is more then the allowed of the Metamagic Rod you can't use that rod!
TaisharMalkier

07-07-04, 03:37 AM		Zug Zug.

"If you say the devils can use their summoning ability as a standard action, I call foul on this one. There is no way that is not you interpreting things unfairly against the player. On everything else I could see things from both sides, but not here."

Really...if I recall correctly, on the sense motive argument, you thought the other way as well. Well, I'm going to point out something. In the challenge you ran, you pointed out that (Ex) abilities are free actions unless otherwise noted. Despite the fact that the majority of the people thought that it should be a standard action because it was an attack of some type, it was run as a free action, because that was what the rules explicitly stated. The rules explicitly state that its a standard action unless otherwise noted.

"- at one time DM rolled a SR check and got 1+19=20 and said it missed but there is no critical miss on as SR check and Errines has SR 20!"

The Erinyes has Unholy Aura on her, which gives SR 25.

"Metamagic applied to a spell does not change any level dependent effects. A maximized empowered fireball takes up an 8th level slot but remains a 3rd level spell, with a DC of 10 + 3 (level) + etc... It fails to affect even someone protected by a minor globe of invulnerability, while cone of cold would go straight through. Thus a minor metamagic rod can maximize an empowered lightning bolt because it's only a level 3 spell, despite taking up a 5th level slot, it's still only a 3rd level spell. "

This is indeed correct. Regardless of how much metamagic you throw on a spell (with the obvious exception of Heighten) it remains the same level spell - still blocked by Globe of Invulnerability, still can be metamagiced with lower level rods.

Feel free to change your action, as I didn't post what would happen as a result of that action.


Cheers
Derlwyn

07-07-04, 03:53 AM		The rules explicitly state that its a standard action unless otherwise noted.
The only problem is that it is otherwise noted if you take the reading of the Summon ability in the MM a certain way. Everything related to Summoning states that it takes a full-round action to complete the spell.
Thermanshs

07-07-04, 06:43 AM		Originally posted by Archangel
If those are the rules then this fights are not by the core rules as was the purpose of this thread. It is all a one big House Rule!
I told ya that he HAS PAYED IN XP as Taishar pointed right from the start he has to for every magic item he creates/-ed.
I can't see where your problem lies.Maybe reading more carefully could help you ;)
Archangel

07-07-04, 07:37 AM		How when he is still lvl 14 and by the rules no extra xp was given for item creation?
Go read the first post if you don't believe me!
Harliquinn

07-07-04, 11:41 AM		this post is starting to turn way too argumentative, especially from people not involved in the action (Wizard and DM).
PhaedrusXY

07-07-04, 07:15 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

"If you say the devils can use their summoning ability as a standard action, I call foul on this one. There is no way that is not you interpreting things unfairly against the player. On everything else I could see things from both sides, but not here."

Really...if I recall correctly, on the sense motive argument, you thought the other way as well. Well, I'm going to point out something. In the challenge you ran, you pointed out that (Ex) abilities are free actions unless otherwise noted. Despite the fact that the majority of the people thought that it should be a standard action because it was an attack of some type, it was run as a free action, because that was what the rules explicitly stated. The rules explicitly state that its a standard action unless otherwise noted.Actually, what you quoted was from a post by me, not DM. But now that you put it that way, I do get a little satisfaction out of the way you are ruling it. :smirk:
DungeonMaster

07-07-04, 08:56 PM		Originally posted by PhaedrusXY
Actually, what you quoted was from a post by me, not DM. But now that you put it that way, I do get a little satisfaction out of the way you are ruling it.

Except of course this is very different as there seems to be text that specifically
makes the ability a 1 round casting. ;)

Can anyone post the relevant summon(Sp) text from the 3.5 MM on p.315? If it says as though casting a summon monster spell, it's 1 round casting, not a drop of doubt about it.
artificial penguin

07-07-04, 10:43 PM		Yes, it says as though casting Summon Monster. Just checked it.

/ap
Erelamar

07-08-04, 02:04 AM		pg142 - 3.5 Players Guide
Spell-like Ability: "The casting of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."

pg315 - 3.5 Monster Manual
Summon (Sp): A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, bu it usually has only a limited choice of success (as specified in the creature's entry).

pg285-288 - 3.5 Players Guide
Summon Monster I-IX: 1 round casting time.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Now being privy to this information, it would appear that it would take a full-round action for the Ice Devil to bring in Bone Devils. About the distance of the Erinyes I have no idea, though I would say that if she's running away at the moment, then just concentrate your efforts on the Ice Devil.

That aside, I am enjoying this thread, mostly DungeonMaster's creative wizard ways of which I have every intention to utilize myself and wish to see more out of him.
aramil99

07-08-04, 06:37 AM		Originally posted by Erelamar
pg142 - 3.5 Players Guide
Spell-like Ability: "The casting of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."

pg315 - 3.5 Monster Manual
Summon (Sp): A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a [B]summon monster spell, bu it usually has only a limited choice of success (as specified in the creature's entry).

pg285-288 - 3.5 Players Guide
Summon Monster I-IX: 1 round casting time.

End of story. It takes a full round casting time to summon monsters, whether by spell or spell-like ability.

Originally posted by Taishar Malkier
Nowhere in any of my books can I find where anything with summon in the title takes a full round to cast.

Try 3.5E Player's Handbook, pp 285-289, for about 20 examples of spells with "Summon" in the title that ALL require an entire round to cast. (SM I-IX, SNA I-IX, plus a few others like "Summon Instrument", "Summon Swarm", etc). Actually it is rather the OPPOSITE of what you state --- EVERY summoning spell has a casting time of 1 (full, complete, entire) round.

Note that "Casting Time: 1 round" is NOT the same thing as "Casting Time: 1 full-round action". Maybe that is where you are confused.
Zelphi

07-08-04, 08:20 AM		As for choosing to fail attacks... I don't think you can.

Whilst you can make yourself "helpless" or even flat footed. You can't force the success of an attack unless you actively try to jump into it - which results in an AC penalty.

Even then, people can fail their own attacks through any number of ways.

Whilst you may make yourself Helpless, it doesn't mean they've taken the CDG action to exploit it.

It doesn't matter if you stand around and don't try to dodge blows if they can't overcome your AC to role for damage.

A save is your own maintained defense. The DC is provided by the attacker.
An attack role is their attack role, the DC is a fixed variable of the defender.

If magic worked in some bizzare way where you'd have to overcome the defenders DC
Or if defenders against an attack had a DC to resist a blow
then it might be different.
DungeonMaster

07-08-04, 07:41 PM		I think that pretty much settles it! It's 1 round to cast and so I'm going to move up as previously described and fry them both with maximized empowered lightning bolt, something I've been iching to do for a while now...
Who knows? I could get unlucky and miss on the SR. The osyluth then get to act immediately since they're summoned so it might be bad for me.
Come what must!
TaisharMalkier

07-09-04, 05:28 AM		Zug Zug.

You can say it settles it all you want. There is no Summon Baatzeru spell - therefore, going with RAW, which is what this suppose to be about, it's a standard action. When it says it's like a summon monster, it's refering to the effects, not the in depth duration/casting/etc of the spell. For example, if it was like a summon monster spell the way you are reading it, it would last 1 round/level, when it clearly states that it does not.


Cheers
Zelphi

07-09-04, 08:21 AM		Whilst I haven't been entirely following this thread post to post (and it's quite confusing).

If you're complaining about the Ice Devils summon ability

Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an ice devil can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 bearded devils, 2d4 bone devils with a 50% chance of success, or another ice devil with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.

It's not even a spell like ability

They don't even have a summon ability as a Spell like ability.

So it's a spell, but its not a specific spell - and seeing as it's like a 4th level spell - it's not too hard a concentration check.

It also only lasts for 1hour and it does say "as though casting". So 1 round action...

not that it matters so much... just let them get on with it.
Neverborn

07-09-04, 10:59 AM		It's not a spell, it's an ability thats the equivalent of a spell...
As for the time it takes... the different texts mentioned can be read both ways... It's all a matter of interpretation!

There is only one way to solve this, go with the DM's (Taishar) interpretation, as is the way these things are worked out when both sides stick to their guns.

As for DungeonMaster frying both Erinyes in one go, Taishar's last comment on this was that this is not possible, again, there is a difference in perspective on how the contenders are arranged, and once again, i suggest to go with the DM's view...

This discussion is better suited to be posted elsewhere on the boards, where it will not clutter the challenge thread...
Sparks The untouchable

07-09-04, 12:07 PM		I'll happily take up the chanenge if it is still open.

I also fell the need to piont out that constructs are the wizards bain. That magic immunity really :censored: them up.
anti magic feld is not a cool thing to run into either.

For the channage:

can i use piont buy? ( for the wiz i only need one or two good scores)

can i use 3e? (3e hast is the wizs best freind)

If not it cool.
Derlwyn

07-09-04, 03:29 PM		I realize that this challenge thread has now become embedded in a couple of debates. And believe me when I say that I really want to see this challenge progress. So I pose this directly to TaisharMalkier;

Ignore for a second that it states that a spell-like ability uses up a standard action unless otherwise noted. True there is no Summon Baatzeru spell, but how is this summon ability so fundementally different from other summon spells. The fact that it is listed as a spell-like ability is rather inconsequential. The mechanics of the ability are identical to every aspect of the other summon spells, so why would the casting time be different?

Also, if you believe that the Erinyes is about 300ft away and that DM cannot strike both the Erinyes and the Ice Devil with the same 250ft lightning bolt, can you please show your distance calculations that prove he cannot do it.

I would really like to see this challenge continue, and I apologize for adding to the debates, but I do believe that input on the matter at hand is important so it can be cleared up quickly.

Thank You
DungeonMaster

07-09-04, 08:11 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
There is no Summon Baatzeru spell

There doesn't need to be one. There is a Summon ability and by definition it's a summon ability.

therefore, going with RAW, which is what this suppose to be about, it's a standard action.

No. By raw it's as though casting a summon monster spell . That coupled with the very definition of a spell like ability which specifically mentions it's only 1-action if the spell is 1-action, which in this case it isn't.


When it says it's like a summon monster, it's refering to the effects, not the in depth duration/casting/etc of the spell.
For example, if it was like a summon monster spell the way you are reading it, it would last 1 round/level, when it clearly states that it does not.

If it was like a summon monster spell it would have no chance to fail either right? It does have a chance to fail. The summon ability specifically mentions that it has usually a limited chance for success. It is referencing the summon ability of demons and devils in all respects. There's no real room for interpretation.


At this point though, I'm too tired to care anymore and I'll just take an action that is yet again defensive and so regardless of 1-action or 1 round you can have your osyluth. That way we can keep going and not have any further argument on the subject, which I'm completely uninterested in. I'm going to pull out my scroll of mislead and cast mislead and have it move away to the right of me, say 50 feet.


Man, I just realised even mislead got butchered. Oh the horror. I'm going to cry. Ok I'm not concentrating on it at all and after the first 3 rounds it's just going to stand there and dodge blows jumping quickly left and right.

I'm likely going to stop after this challenge Sparks, if I lose we might want a tie-breaker though. ;)
TaisharMalkier

07-10-04, 04:16 AM		Zug Zug.

"For the channage:

can i use piont buy? ( for the wiz i only need one or two good scores)

can i use 3e? (3e hast is the wizs best freind)

If not it cool."

Sure thing. 25 point buy, and it's 3.5 (as stated in title...).

Just a final comment on the summon thing:

"If it was like a summon monster spell it would have no chance to fail either right? It does have a chance to fail. The summon ability specifically mentions that it has usually a limited chance for success. It is referencing the summon ability of demons and devils in all respects. There's no real room for interpretation. "

But if you say it's like the summon monster spell, it's contradicting itself. In one place, it's saying 1 ro/level, in one its saying an hour. Irregardless...

On the Erinyes: She started 30' from Phae (give or take), moved 100' directly up, then 200' directly away, for a total of (100^ + 230^ square root equals roughly 251 feet away - in addition, he would have to move to line up the shot, as it were, a good 15' around, which would add 15' to the distance, leaving it at 266 feet or so.

You cast Mislead from the scroll - your image moves 50' to the side of you.

The Erinyes flys 300' towards you.

The ice devil (Confusion Roll - 15) flys in the air slightly to a centralized location between the devils and a dark cloying miasma oozes from them!

The bone devils charge your location! They radiate with fear, but you are unaffected (no chance to fail) and they attempt to sting you with their tails (12+14, 10+14) and fail to break past the myriad of defensive enchantments.


Cheers
aramil99

07-10-04, 12:35 PM		You, Taishar Malkier, have not commented on or acknowledged your gross, astounding lack of understanding of how summoning works.

I refer specifically to where you stated that you were unaware of *any* summoning spell that required an entire round to cast.

Specifically, I refer to your quote right here:

Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

Nowhere in any of my books can I find where anything with summon in the title takes a full round to cast.


Have you now managed to locate any "anything with summon in the title" that takes a full round to cast?

For example, have you seen any of these spells?

Summon Monster I
Summon Monster II
Summon Monster III
Summon Monster IV
Summon Monster V
Summon Monster VI
Summon Monster VII
Summon Monster VIII
Summon Monster IX
Summon Nature's Ally I
Summon Nature's Ally II
Summon Nature's Ally III
Summon Nature's Ally IV
Summon Nature's Ally V
Summon Nature's Ally VI
Summon Nature's Ally VII
Summon Nature's Ally VIII
Summon Nature's Ally IX
Summon Swarm
Summon Instrument

(Hint: 3.5E Player's Handbook, pp 285-289)

Have you noted yet that ALL of those spells require a complete, entire round to cast? Completely and totally in contradiction to your statement that "[n]owhere in any of my books can I find where anything with summon in the title takes a full round to cast"?

First let's establish whether or not you are now finally clear on the plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face fact that all those summoning spells require a complete, entire round to cast.

It's really rather difficult to attach much credibility to your bizarre, convoluted interpretation that "summon" abilities take only a standard action when used by a monster, when by your own statement you do not even correctly grasp the casting time of plain, normal summoning spells.
Harliquinn

07-10-04, 02:16 PM		Chill.
DungeonMaster

07-10-04, 02:17 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
But if you say it's like the summon monster spell, it's contradicting itself. In
one place, it's saying 1 ro/level, in one its saying an hour. Irregardless...

No Taishar, it's not. You're specifically ruling things that contradict the rules as written. By your token the Summon ability then has no range and so you could summon your ally on the surface of the nearest moon, into the center of the nearest town and probably also works accross planes of existence as well since there's nothing saying you can't do that either. The world should be over-run with devils and demons. You're specifically ignoring information on the very description of the ability in the MM. In fact in the SRD for 3.5 I can't even find mention that it lasts 1-hour. That's a 3rd edition rule. There is no room for interpretation.
I really have no problem losing by the rules, that's what's "supposed" to happen if the CR is indeed extremely tough, fringing on overpowering.
I'm continuing, but I'de like to make it clear that it has clearly dipped into the arena of no longer by the RAW rules. That's all I'm saying.
If you really honestly want to retain credibility that this is by raw rules then please roll the SR and saves for the Gelugon and Erinyes against my lightning bolt and lets continue from there. It's really not that bad! I could still fail the SR check! I have a 1 in 4 chance of doing so.
Otherwise, we're continuing, which I'm willing to do of course because people want closure and have otherwise clearly enjoyed the thread, and it is a good thread, but it's clearly not RAW rules anymore. We've distinctly crossed that threshold. I really don't want to see the thread degenerate into arguments, so please everyone else: no more comments on this issue. We go one way or the other, at Taishar's motivation and work with.


On the Erinyes: She started 30' from Phae (give or take), moved 100' directly up, then 200' directly away, for a total of (100^ + 230^ square root equals roughly 251 feet away - in addition, he would have to move to line up the shot, as it were, a good 15' around, which would add 15' to the distance, leaving it at 266 feet or so.

I am not Phaedrus! :P
Ialldor does not need to move to line up the shot, he has 10 feet reach and it starts from my finger-tips. He doesn't even need to hit every square the creature occupies, just one, in 3.5 terminology.


The Erinyes flys 300' towards you.

Impossible. She can't move more than 200 feet a round, again! She should be 100 feet up in the air and 30 feet from the gelugon's position or some combination in-between.


The ice devil (Confusion Roll - 15) flys in the air slightly to a centralized location between the devils and a dark cloying miasma oozes from them!

Who gainst the unholy aura? If he hits the bone devils with it then he's not able to hit the erinyes. It's only 20 foot range, it's one or the other, not everyone.


They radiate with fear, but you are unaffected (no chance to fail) and they attempt to sting you with their tails (12+14, 10+14) and fail to break past the myriad of defensive enchantments.

I CAN fail those checks. A roll of a 1 on the save is always a failure. I'm pointing this out again because I want fair challenge Taishar. That's really all I'm interested in.
I am improved invisible as well, and they can't detect it. So there's a % roll as well but that you could roll after AC of course, just reminding. Are you letting the erinyes' telepathic directions allow them to target my square exactly with attacks?
TaisharMalkier

07-11-04, 04:56 AM		Zug Zug.

Obviously we disagree on what the RAW is. I disagreed with you on Ex attacks as free actions - as did everyone else I saw comment. As I recall, you still did them as free actions.

"Ialldor does not need to move to line up the shot, he has 10 feet reach and it starts from my finger-tips. He doesn't even need to hit every square the creature occupies, just one, in 3.5 terminology. "

You are incorrect. It must originate from your own square - I'd find the quote if it mattered.

"In fact in the SRD for 3.5 I can't even find mention that it lasts 1-hour. "

I don't know about the SRD but it very clearly states in the MM how long it lasts.

"Impossible. She can't move more than 200 feet a round, again! She should be 100 feet up in the air and 30 feet from the gelugon's position or some combination in-between."

Creatures with good manueverability move at double speed when descending. Theoretically she could move 400' in a round.

"Who gainst the unholy aura? If he hits the bone devils with it then he's not able to hit the erinyes. It's only 20 foot range, it's one or the other, not everyone. "

It's a 20' burst, not range. They all moved into position to receive it.

"I CAN fail those checks. A roll of a 1 on the save is always a failure. I'm pointing this out again because I want fair challenge Taishar. That's really all I'm interested in.
I am improved invisible as well, and they can't detect it. So there's a % roll as well but that you could roll after AC of course, just reminding. Are you letting the erinyes' telepathic directions allow them to target my square exactly with attacks?"

I forgot about always 1 (you pass both). Yes, they can't see through your invis, but there was no need to roll percent chance as neither hit. I am letting them target your exact square as messages are free actions and im fairly sure through telepathy you could precisely tell someone what square someone was located in.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

07-11-04, 01:15 PM		I would appreciate it that everyone else stays out of this discussion for just a moment, it really should be just between Taishar and myself and it doesn't seem to want to die. At some points I ask for people with the actual books to input information because I don't have them and there seems to be some discrepancy between the SRD and the books.

Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Obviously we disagree on what the RAW is. I disagreed with you on Ex attacks as free actions - as did everyone else I saw comment. As I recall, you still did them as free actions.

Taishar, I want to re-open that debate. There's a profound difference between what I ruled and what you're ruling now.
Show me, in the 3rd edition rules, how it is not a free action for the digester to use it's acid-spit.

The 3rd edition MM p.7:
Special Abilities
Extraordinary : Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, don't go away in an antimagic field, and are not subject to anything that disrupts magic. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted.

The digester's acid spit entry:
Acid Spray (Ex): A digester can spray acid in a cone 20 feet long, dealing 4d8 points of damage to everything in the area.Once a digester uses this ability, it can’t use it again until 1d4 rounds later. The creature can also produce a concentrated stream of acid that deals 8d8 points of damage to a single target within 5 feet. In either case, a successful Reflex save (DC 17) halves the damage.

There is no mention of the ability being a standard action, it defaults to the rules for Special abilities, and it is then a free action.

To top it off, the digester itself is a pretty damn weak monster for it's CR if you don't use the Ex spit as a free action, to which Phaedrus, the player agreed!

We're not dealing with the same case here in this challenge, at all.
We have specific 100% clear mention under Spell like abilities:

pg142 - 3.5 Players Guide
Spell-like Ability: "The casting of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."

pg315 - 3.5 Monster Manual
Summon (Sp): A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell , but it usually has only a limited choice of success (as specified in the creature's entry).

From the 3.5 SRD description under Devil traits :
—Summon (Sp): Some devils share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of devils summoned are noted in each monster description).

Is the above line in the 3.5 MM under devil traits? Yes or No?

It is by the rules, impossible for them to summon in 1-standard action.
It is a spell like ability, it works exactly like a spell except it has no material components, no somatic or verbal components and no XP cost.

Now even if you did this once, I wouldn't care too much. I've got a tough skin. It's really bothering me that you've done this twice now. I didn't look at the retreiver entry while the challenge was going on, afterwards, I did and it is a Spell-like ability that you made into a free-action for them. They just knew my exact location without even a standard action to cast it, even after I moved.


You are incorrect. It must originate from your own square - I'd find the quote if it mattered.

It does, please do, it's very relevant. If so, I'll retract my claim that I can hit both of them with my lightning bolt. That's what I've been basing that on.


I don't know about the SRD but it very clearly states in the MM how long it lasts.

That's all I have to work off of. I can beleive it's true, it was that way in the 3rd edition MM and I trust you that it's true. It does not in any way inviolate the above text however, which you're claiming it does. I just can't see where you're taking room for interpretation. There doesn't seem to be any!


Creatures with good manueverability move at double speed when descending. Theoretically she could move 400' in a round.

No, that's a misapplication of the rules. You cannot rise 10 feet above the ground then claim to dive for 400 along a more or less straight line above the ground. That's just plain wrong Taishar. She can at best move 100 feet down using 50 of her movement. That gives her 150 movement remaining and she is 200 feet away laterally from the Gelugon.


It's a 20' burst, not range. They all moved into position to receive it.

Unless you specifically positioned those Osyluth somewhere behind the actual gelugon then you can't have them both get the unholy aura and get a charge. I'm getting extremely frustrate with you moving things around and positioning things while not telling me. These are rather important ''details".


I am letting them target your exact square as messages are free actions and im fairly sure through telepathy you could precisely tell someone what square someone was located in.

Does this not strike you as advantaging them, no spot checks or even listen checks to target my exact square on hearsay at a charge no less? I can cope with this however, it's a liberal interpretation, it doesn't violate any rules. It's heavily in my disadvantage, but I can cope with it.
After further reflection I'm having a much harder time coping with the above.

We can of course continue with your scenario, but really I'm no longer certain what it proves because it's misapplying rules. Tell me Taishar, are we here to test the 3.5 rules or not? I've already won once, your initial claim that the wizard will lose 100% of the time has been proven wrong. So why try and further disadvantage by breaking the rules? I don't get it.
Thermanshs

07-12-04, 11:08 AM		As replied from WotC customers' service by mail
The spell-like ability to summon possessed by demons and devils is a standard action to perform, and the summoning lasts for 1 round per caster level.

I wish this matter ended now...:)
TaisharMalkier

07-14-04, 03:10 AM		Zug Zug.

Hmmmm....interesting....

Apparently I was thinking of something else. For some reason I swore I looked it up. But yah, dosen't list duration, so 1 round/level.

My entire argument was that it dosen't specifically state the type of action - therefore it reverts to the default type (which is standard). This is essentially the same argument that you used (every other breath weapon was a standard action).

"Have you now managed to locate any "anything with summon in the title" that takes a full round to cast?"

You clearly misunderstood me. I can find plenty of things that are summons that take 1 round to cast (which is different then a FRA btw) but I am unable to find a specific phrase that states something along the lines of: All spells and abilities that have Summon in the name take 1 round to cast.

Anywho, this thread is continually giving me a headache. After this encounter, I'm done.

Note: I hardly threw the hardest challenge at you - I can think of a ton that are harder. I wanted to start it off fairly easy. In addition, if you were in an enclosed space, you would have had to run away.

"No, that's a misapplication of the rules. You cannot rise 10 feet above the ground then claim to dive for 400 along a more or less straight line above the ground. That's just plain wrong Taishar. She can at best move 100 feet down using 50 of her movement. That gives her 150 movement remaining and she is 200 feet away laterally from the Gelugon. "

Shrug, they don't state it, but that makes sense to me. The chick moves 250' towards the gelugon, and dosen't get dark miasmaed.

The devils both charged you after he cast it, he moved into position near them and cast it...I fail to see how the positioning is at all difficult - as long as he is within 20' of one of them it works.

"Does this not strike you as advantaging them, no spot checks or even listen checks to target my exact square on hearsay at a charge no less? I can cope with this however, it's a liberal interpretation, it doesn't violate any rules. It's heavily in my disadvantage, but I can cope with it.
After further reflection I'm having a much harder time coping with the above."

Under the rules of the game you can essentially talk for as long as you want. I can't say 20 feet in front of you, strike ahead? I could follow those directions in real life.

"It does, please do, it's very relevant. If so, I'll retract my claim that I can hit both of them with my lightning bolt. That's what I've been basing that on. "

"A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square"

A final note - the main reason this thread gives me such a headache is apparently everyone assumes I'm out to get the player. Every single ruling I have said is what it has been played as in every game I've been in or DMed. A few haven't come up before, but every one that has was ruled that way before this challenge. All devil/demon summoning is a standard action, etc.



Cheers
Erple2

07-14-04, 12:43 PM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
Zug Zug.

Hmmmm....interesting....

Apparently I was thinking of something else. For some reason I swore I looked it up. But yah, dosen't list duration, so 1 round/level.


No, youre right: under summon (p 315 in monster manual), it specifically states that "Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour", which can be easily (and IMO correctly) interpreted as "they last an hour".


My entire argument was that it dosen't specifically state the type of action - therefore it reverts to the default type (which is standard). This is essentially the same argument that you used (every other breath weapon was a standard action).


In the absense of other rules, I'd agree with this. However, now it's interpretation time: It quite clearly states in the Monster Manual that the Spell-like ability of Summon is: "A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success...". The question now becomes: How much is the Summon Spell-like ability like casting the summon monster spell? It clearly states at least two differences in the Summon description, namely there is usually a limited chance of success, and that the creature lasts for one hour. Do those two limitations dictate the only cases where the Summon Spell like ability differes from the "summon monster" spell? Does that mean for all other purposes, do we look to the summon monster spell (full round action to cast) itself for everything else related to that Spell-like ability, or do we default to the standard "Spell like ability" rules (standard action)? I believe that is where this issue is most wonky for this "debate". I can grudgingly (now) see both sides of the story, and see how both of them hold weight.


You clearly misunderstood me. I can find plenty of things that are summons that take 1 round to cast (which is different then a FRA btw) but I am unable to find a specific phrase that states something along the lines of: All spells and abilities that have Summon in the name take 1 round to cast.


And that is the problem. That phrase doesn't exist. (see above for discussion).

Either way, fun stuff!
DungeonMaster

07-14-04, 07:58 PM		Taishar, I'm really not interested in making the challenge a headache, and I'm sorry if I made it such for you, and I would prefer to resign than have it that way. I'm actually really interested in testing the rules - in many ways I deplore the 3.5 changes to arcane spells and if I wanted to further my "agenda" as some people have called my comments on these boards I would want him to die.
But I'm more than anything interested in seeing how a high level wizard holds out, using all of my tricks and tactics that still sort of work, and fighting as hard as I possibly can to keep the wizard alive, and perhaps victorious over the monsters, which I've grown to realise have in fact been nerfed in roughly the same proportion as the players.
Indeed 3.5 is looking more like a consistent a rule-set to me from these challenges. It has it's problems (like the holy word combo which ends both of these in 1-action) but overall I've grown to appreciate that there was more work done on 3.5 than I previously thought. Skip did re-balance the monsters to accomodate the new nerfed system. In essence sure disintegrate sucks compared to before, but so do beholders now as a result and so everthing more or less averages out. The wizard's spells are largely nerfed but then again so are the demons and devils, the gelugon's wall of ice is gone for instance. It's reasonably consistent, as a ruleset, looked at without comparison to 3rd edition.
I still would play my adopted edition of course, but I'll no longer claim as I have in the past that the monsters were made stronger and the players made weaker - this challenge thread has really proved that to me.


As for my actions, I'm not dead yet, far from it. I'll accept the ruling on the standard action Summoning and I'll make no further comment.
I'm lost in the positioning, can I line up the erinyes and the gelugon and hit them with a bolt of lightning this round?
Otherwise I'll pull out my scroll of dispel magic and take a 5 ft step back and attempt to dispel the summoned devils.




This is essentially the same argument that you used (every other breath weapon was a standard action).

No, the argument I used was that breath weapons are usually a standard action as defined in the DMG and I provided the example of the hell-hound that is a free-action breath-weapon it can use while bitting. Digester acid also is not a breath weapon, it's not listed as such, but if it were, then even then it would be reasonable to use it as a free action if it was extraordinary.


Under the rules of the game you can essentially talk for as long as you want. I can't say 20 feet in front of you, strike ahead? I could follow those directions in real life.

It is debatable, I'm probably not good at estimating to within 5 feet something that's 40 feet away at a charge. As a DM I would require a spot check DC 20 to at least learn the general area, but as I've said, I can live with your ruling.



"A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square"

Gotcha. I was wrong then to say I could hit both of them.


A final note - the main reason this thread gives me such a headache is apparently everyone assumes I'm out to get the player. Every single ruling I have said is what it has been played as in every game I've been in or DMed. A few haven't come up before, but every one that has was ruled that way before this challenge. All devil/demon summoning is a standard action, etc....

Well here we have distinct differences. False vision, readied spell and summoning are the most clear cut differences. I think the debate is good, so long as it doesn't get out of hand, which it maybe has. No two people play the rules identically similar, no two gaming groups, even with very near to black and white rules. For the online community, in my previous challenges I've accepted some online community decisions. Phaedrus really really really wanted to have a solar polymorph form, and we argued for about a page on it and I finally let him have it. In the end, as a DM, you pick your fights and try to do the best with what's grey area. I've never run or seen run the haste spell as giving the player an extra action on the turn he casts the spell, but I yeilded to the online pressure. I notably didn't yield on the sheild spell despite potentially ambigous wording. I think the real difficulty in DMing is dealing with the black and white rules that don't allow any room for interpretation and are bad. A good system has few of these.
TaisharMalkier

07-18-04, 05:16 AM		Zug Zug.

"As for my actions, I'm not dead yet, far from it. I'll accept the ruling on the standard action Summoning and I'll make no further comment.
I'm lost in the positioning, can I line up the erinyes and the gelugon and hit them with a bolt of lightning this round?
Otherwise I'll pull out my scroll of dispel magic and take a 5 ft step back and attempt to dispel the summoned devils. "

You can zap them both - as well as one of the summoned devils (essentially both the summoned devils are at you, the ice devil is a bit back from them, and the erinyes is a bit back from the ice devil). I'll assume that's what you want to do?

"It is debatable, I'm probably not good at estimating to within 5 feet something that's 40 feet away at a charge. As a DM I would require a spot check DC 20 to at least learn the general area, but as I've said, I can live with your ruling. "

Shrug. Irregardless, with your rule they would pass on a 1, which would obviously come to the same result.

Not that you're suppose to know, but the Gelugon still has crazy wall of ice. It just dosen't really work in this situation.

"Well here we have distinct differences. False vision, readied spell and summoning are the most clear cut differences. I think the debate is good, so long as it doesn't get out of hand, which it maybe has. No two people play the rules identically similar, no two gaming groups, even with very near to black and white rules. For the online community, in my previous challenges I've accepted some online community decisions. Phaedrus really really really wanted to have a solar polymorph form, and we argued for about a page on it and I finally let him have it. In the end, as a DM, you pick your fights and try to do the best with what's grey area. I've never run or seen run the haste spell as giving the player an extra action on the turn he casts the spell, but I yeilded to the online pressure. I notably didn't yield on the sheild spell despite potentially ambigous wording. I think the real difficulty in DMing is dealing with the black and white rules that don't allow any room for interpretation and are bad. A good system has few of these."

I'm fine with debate - the main reason this thread is giving me a headache is because it seems that certain people who will remain nameless appear to feel the need to attack me, instead of merely chiming in with their opinion/rules quote. In one instance, they're helping. In the other, they're not. And just for the record, I wouldn't have even left Polymorph up for debate, considering it was errated, and thus considered the rules. For example, if shapechange occured, it would be 1 HD per CL instead of 2 (at which it's still super powerful). You can argue it all you like - the rules say its one way, completely clearcut. As for getting the first round as haste or not, I'd say it's up to interpetation, but as long as you didn't give them the last round or did give them the last round (the round in which it expired) so you got the correct number of partial actions it would be fine. Shrug. I think half the problem is when you don't think of what the spirit of the rule(s) is designed to be, instead taking the most literal version in your mind.

Anywho...


Cheers
Thermanshs

07-18-04, 06:15 AM		Originally posted by TaisharMalkier
For example, if shapechange occured, it would be 1 HD per CL instead of 2 (at which it's still super powerful).
I think it was errated to 1 HD/CL too (unless that was what you meant,sorry for the interruption if that's the case)
Nylkran

07-18-04, 01:55 PM		I have never noticed this thread before I read the first to pages and to my astonishment DungeonMaster is still alive, I have played wizards or sorcerers at almost all the campaings I have played of D&D, (which is like 4i n the past year or so), since I haven't read the entire thing, I do have a couple of question:

1) There appear to be only one encounter per day which makes a considerable increase in the changes of any class to survive, am I correct on this assumption?

2) If my understanding is correct the point of the thread is to inspect the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 in regards of a wizard, if so is there a veredict yet or is it to soon? my instinct and experiences tell that arcane casting has being considerably reduced, I await for the opinion of those involve in the experiment.

3) In your first encounter you used you Maximized Rod on you Empowered Fireball, according to my understanding of the rules you can't use the Rod because is a 5th level spell since it takes a fifth level sloth, (even tough it saves like a 3th level spell), am I mistaken on my understanding of the rules?

4) Again on your first encounter you casted the spell on the best of cases it did 90 damage since the Retrievers have 135, why did the DM said that some unimportant stuff happened and you win, they easily could las another round which could have killed you.

I am not asking this question to anyone in particular although I assume that DungeonMaster and TaisharMalkier are the more qualified to answer then since they are engaing on the experiment.
Warspite

07-18-04, 02:42 PM		Hiya Nylkran, Welcome to the thread and I would suggest that you take the time and read it as there is lots of great stuff in it.

I will go ahead and answer your questions as all the answers are contained in the thread so It requires no interpretation on my part.

1) One of the initial assumptions is that the character replaces all spells and replenishable items between encounters so you are correct one encounter per day.

2) Dungeon Master has given an initial opinion that while the wizard has been heavily nerfed in 3.5, the monsters have also been equally nerfed so things appear to balance out. This is an initial opinion and I would be interested if anyone has additional opinions on this one.

3) Fireball is a third level spell. Even when enhanced with metamagic it is still a third level spell (it is still blocked by a minor globe of invulnerability, it's save DC has not increased.) and so it is still eligible to be enhanced with a minor metamagic rod.

4) TaisharMalkier ruled that the seekers had no chance to kill Dungeon Master at that point and Dungeon Master had sufficient additional spells to finish them off so he declared a win for Dungeon Master without the need to play out the tedious details of exactly how he killed them.

Hope this helps.

Warspite
TaisharMalkier

07-20-04, 08:59 PM		Zug Zug.

Warspite is correct on all counts. No matter how much metamagic you add to something (with the obvious exception of heighten spell) it remains at its original level - it is still stopped by a globe of invuln for example. The retreivers had no chance to kill him because they were unable to fly - they would have been a much more difficult challenge in an enclosed area, but it seemed kind of a "ok you are in a room standing next to 20 devils, they attack you die" sorta thing ;p.


Cheers
DungeonMaster

07-20-04, 11:51 PM		I lost track of the thread because of the crazy busy conference... sorry about that.

I'll fry all three of them with maximized empowered lightning bolt and move.
Can you draw a diagram of where everything is roughly now Taishar? My brain is full of other things and I'm afriad I'm not going to be able to keep track anymore without a diagram. I'll decide where to move after the results of my lightning bolt and with a better idea of where things are.

Actually distance factors into spot checks and it can be really quite hard to see something invisible even with decent spot skill. But no matter.

Nylkran: I'll take that as a compliment that I'm still alive ;)
bigpolar

08-08-04, 12:36 AM		I was really hoping to see how this would turn out! What happened guys?