Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 12-14-06, 10:23 PM	I've been reading various threads about the Deepwood Sniper (a PrC I've always loved from Masters of the Wild). It was never updated to 3.5, which could be for one of two reasons: It's fine the way it is, or It's broken, and based off of obsolete, 3.0 mechanics. So what I decided to do is revamp the class, removing the crit multiplier increasese, and the concealment reductions, as well as the consistant aim (re-roll an attack) abilities. Here is what I have. It has the same fluff as the original, so I won't bother typing it out. Let me know what you think! :D What I'm looking for is feedback on the class as presented, not a debate as to whether or not the 3.0 version is okay. Deepwood Sniper Hit Die: d8. REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become a deepwood sniper, a character must fulfill all the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks. Feats: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow or crossbow). CLASS SKILLS The deepwood sniper’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier. CLASS FEATURES All of the following are features of the deepwood sniper prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Deepwood snipers gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies. Safe Poison Use (Ex): At 1st level, a deepwood sniper can use poison without any chance of poisoning herself. Range Increment Bonus (Ex): With each level the deepwood sniper gains, the range increment of her projectile weapons increase by +10 feet (added after all multipliers). Improved Critical (Ex): At 2nd level, the deepwood sniper gains the Improved Critical feat. This feat must be applied to the bow or crossbow for which she has taken the Weapon Focus Feat. She gains this feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Bonus Feat: At 3rd level the deepwood sniper gains a bonus feat, selected from the following list: Alertness, Crossbow Sniper, Deadeye Shot, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Penetrating Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Reconnoiter, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting, Shot on the Run, and Stealthy. She must still meet the prerequisites as normal. She gains an additional bonus feat at 6th and 9th levels. Take Aim (Ex): A 4th-level deepwood sniper can gain a +2 bonus on her attack rolls against a stationary target by aiming carefully. She also gains an additional 1d6 percision damage to the attack, if within 30 feet. This damage does not apply to creatures immune to critical hits. The extra damage is not multiplied during a critical hit. Taking aim is a full-round action, and if the target moves more than 5 feet during that period, the bonus is lost. No additional benefit exists for spending more than 1 round aiming. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level, and the precision damage increases to +2d6 damage. Weapon Specialization: A deepwood sniper of 5th level or higher gains Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat. It must be applied to a bow or crossbow with which the sniper has taken the Weapon Focus feat. Ranged Precision: At 6th level, a deepwood sniper adds 30 feet to the range of all precision based damage (including her take aim ability, as well as sneak attack, sudden attack, and skirmish, as well as any others she might have). Camouflage (Ex): A deepwood sniper of 7th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. Greater Critical (Ex): At 10th level, the threat range of her bow or crossbow becomes tripple its original value. So a crossbow's critical would become 15-20x2, and a bow's would become 18-20x3. This ability is applied to the bow or crossbow with which she gained the Improved Critical feat for at 2nd level. level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Safe poison use, range increment bonus +10 ft./level 2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Improved Critical 3th +3 +1 +3 +1 Bonus feat 4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Take aim +2 5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Weapon specialization 6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Bonus feat, ranged precision 7th +7 +2 +5 +2 Camouflage 8th +8 +2 +6 +2 Take aim +4 9th +9 +3 +6 +3 Bonus feat 10th +10 +3 +7 +3 Greater Critical EDIT: 12/16/06 - reworked abilities
RobbyPants 12-15-06, 08:54 PM	:bump: Any comments? Good? Bad? Broknzer?
ArochanoX 12-16-06, 03:42 AM	It looks good. It may be even underpowered. Though the "keen arrows" -ability comes too early. That is the most powerful ability of this prc as it is now. I'd bump it around level 3. Also get rid of the bonus feats and give some unique abilities instead.
spiderboy4 12-16-06, 03:45 AM	looks pretty good but I don't have the book in front of me to compare. I have a player who is considering taking this for his scout. I might have to do it the old fashioned way but I love it when someone else does the work. I'll post ideas once I see the class from 3.0.
The_Shaman 12-16-06, 07:51 AM	A bit weak imo, but let the others say too. At least a +1 to crit modifier on later levels would have been nice.
Ultimatecalibur 12-16-06, 09:18 AM	Move Keen Arrows to 2nd level and change it to granting the Improved Critical feat when using a bow or crossbow you have weapon focus in (same effect different wording). Move Ranged Precision down to about 5th level. Remove Safe Poison Use. Add a +1d6 precision damage when you make an attack without moving or taking a 5ft step at 3rd, and increases it at 6th and 9th levels. The capstone ability could be as suggested a +1 crit multiplier.
JasonOrlandoHawk 12-16-06, 09:36 AM	I would personally retain the Improved Critical Multiplier b/c that was a large portion of what made the 3.0 class worthwhile/flavorful. I'd say it at least needs that ability in there once. I agree on moving the Keen Arrows to a higher level, and dropping another ability down a bit. Ranged Precision doesn't really fit well here b/c the class doesn't have any precision based damage. While a Rogue, Ranger, or Scout could possibly make use of this ability, characters from other classes would have a wasted level. Either add precision based damage or replace the Ranged Precision ability. Safe Poison Use needs to stay. Did the original class have any prerequisite ranks in survival? Considering the flavor, it would seem appropriate. (I don't have the book in front of me.) I don't know about Weapon Specialization. For some reason, it seems bland in this class. I'm not sure what to replace it with, or if it should be replaced, but something feels off. Bonus Feat list is fine as is. Overall, the class does need something else to bring up to the right power level. The Improved Critical Multiplier would definately be a step in the right direction. I would also consider a few simple, but useful stealth/awareness abilities. Maybe the character only takes a -10 penalty on Hide Checks following a ranged attack roll OR the character only takes a -1 penalty on Spot checks for each 20 feet away the target is. Lastly, you either need to add some precision based damage OR replace Ranged Precision w/ another ability. To make the class more interesting to multiple classes, I would probably replace the ability. Give me some time to think on a good replacement.
keith187 12-16-06, 12:52 PM	This was a long range combat class. Adding in abilities that make you have to be within 30ft is moving in the opposite direction. You're forcing a class that used to be all about insane ranges for their attacks into being a close combat archer. Yet you don't let them fire safely from melee. In my experience DWS has always been a solid PrC the way it was printed. I'd keep the improved crit multiplyer, but put them at lvl 5 and again at lvl 10. We kept the Concealment reduction, but changed it to lessening the AC bonus a person would get from cover. Not full cover though. The magic weapon was moved to 3rd, and grater magic weapon was added at 6th.
RobbyPants 12-17-06, 11:01 AM	Thanks for all the responses everyone! :D I'll try my best to respond to all the points. Firstly, I do agree it's underpowered. I figured it was best to err on this side first and add abilities to it. The Keen Arrows ability is worded as in the MotW 3.0 DWS, and was originally a level one ability. I could bump it back, but this was how the class was made to begin with. I put the Ranged Precision ability at 10 level only because I had an empty level. I agree that this certainly isn't a good capstone ability, and I should probably add in some type of precision damage on the Take Aim ability to make this more useful (perhaps +1d6 at level 4 and +2d6 at level 8). This would be within 30 feet (until Ranged Precision is gained). I'd probably drop it to about 6th level. I could set the 10th level capstone ability to either adding +1 to the crit multiplier (so a keen crossbow would be 17-20 x3, and the keen bow would be 19-20 x4) or maybe increasing the threat range further instead (so the keen crossbow would be 15-20 x2, and the keen bow would be 18-10 x3). Mechanically they're about the same, but I think increasing the threat range has less potential for abuse. I put in the weapon specialization partially for flavor (as they're bow/crossbow specialists), and also to give them the prereq for Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing), found in the PHB II. I liked the customizing ability of the bonus feats, but I do feel they're a bit bland. If I find enough stuff to fill in the class, I'll probalby pull them out, and then add in a few fixed feats (that the player doesn't choose) at particular levels. The idea of being able to snipe with only a -10 on the Hide (as opposed to the standard -20) is a nice ability, and might go well for a 10th level ability (this would stack very well with the Camouflage ability!). No promisies as to when I'll do it, but I'll try to post a re-work in the near future. Thanks again for all your responses! I'm open to new ones on these ideas too.
RobbyPants 12-17-06, 01:37 PM	Okay, I reworked the class (and edited to original post to reflect so): I changed the Keen Arrows ability to Improved Critical (applying to one bow or crossbow for which the DWS took Weapon Focus). This ability was moved to 2nd level. I moved Safe Poison use to 1st level. I added precision damage to the Take aim ability (+1d6 at 4th level and +2d6 at 8th). She has to be witihn 30 feet for it to work. I moved Ranged Precision down to 6th level (and it applies to the damage from Take Aim). I added a Greater Critical as a capstone ability. The threat range for the bow or crossbow becomes tripple what it originally was (15-20x2 for a crossbow and 18-20x3 for a bow). I didn't add it in yet, but I'm still toying with the sniping idea suggested ealier (dropping the -20 Hide penalty down to -10). If I add it, it will probalby replace the Camouflage ability.
RobbyPants 12-18-06, 07:49 AM	Robby Pants: * Casts Resurection* Thread: I'mmmm Aliiiive! Robby Pants: Good to see you again Thread: I lost a level Robby Pants: At least you're alive again Thread: Meh... --------------------------------------------------------- So, any comments on the re-build?
SamiPeikko 12-18-06, 08:13 AM	Those critical improvement abilities were the reason this class could be abused in 3.0, so I was happy about how you had overcame this problem until I reached lvl 10 ability. I think it is a bad idea. Also is there a reason why you are limited to bows and crossbows? How about slings and more exotic projectile weapons?
RobbyPants 12-18-06, 08:49 AM	Those critical improvement abilities were the reason this class could be abused in 3.0, so I was happy about how you had overcame this problem until I reached lvl 10 ability. I think it is a bad idea. The original MotW printing had something like keen arrows as well as 2 or 3 crit multiplier increases (so a bow would be either 19-20x5 or 19-20x6). The build I have caps it at a "double keen", which only tripples the original threat range (making the bow 18-20x3). I don't feel it's over-powered for a capstone ability. Most PrC abilities are about bending the rules a bit, so long as they stay within reasonable constraints. I still nerfed the 3.0 verson substantially by not increasing the crit multiplier at all. Also is there a reason why you are limited to bows and crossbows? How about slings and more exotic projectile weapons? The original MotW printing only limited it to projectile weapons (so I guess slings would count), but in the prereqs, they made you take Weapon Focus (any bow or crossbow). Because some of my ablilities are tied to the weapon for which the PC took Weapon Focus, that's where the limiation came from. I supposed I could add slings, but it seems very sub-optimal.
RobbyPants 12-18-06, 03:47 PM	Does anyone else feel the 10th level capstone ability is overpowered? If so, why?
The_Shaman 12-18-06, 06:13 PM	Bah, overpowered. To be frank, I consider the 3.0 edition good as it is. Yes, when you do a critical, they feel it. So, let's see, (1d8+12)x5 + 1d6 +4d10 (burst longbow) = 80-ish damage. Great. Well, it's only right - because at that time, when a wizard criticals an orb of X (complete arcane, say polar ray from the SRD) you can expect something along the lines of 17d6 x2. I'd say it can do no worse than anything the sniper could pull off. Criticalling an empowered, sonic admixtured orb of acid (spell level 9 if I'm calculating it right)? That's brutal.
ksbsnowowl 12-18-06, 07:59 PM	The original 3.0 class as found in Masters of the Wild is just fine in a 3.5 game, save for perhaps reworking anything dealing with concealment or cover (I forget if the concealment rules changed or not). WotC has already introduced a PrC in 3.5 that grants a Crit Threat Range increase AND a Critical Multiplier increase (Thayan Gladiator, Champions of Ruin), so retaining the same ability for the Deepwood Sniper shouldn't be a problem.
SamiPeikko 12-19-06, 07:51 AM	In 3.0 I designed a build around Warsling Sniper. It had in it some Deepwood Sniper and Peerless Archer also, I think. Back then all Crit enhancements did stack, and sligs were treated like bows. I armed this guy with a warsling with multiple elemental burst abilities. In average this monster woud crit once a round, and deal 10d6 +20d10 of mixed elemental damage on a crit. So this is what you should be kind of trying to avoid. Take the weapon with highest crit multiplier, add two or 3 elemental bursts to it, and give this to your archer, and then ask yourself if it is balanced.
ksbsnowowl 12-19-06, 08:18 AM	In 3.0 I designed a build around Warsling Sniper. ... Back then ... sligs were treated like bows.No they weren't. Citing an illegal build does not show the DWS to be overpowered. Again, if crit multiplier increases were so anathema to 3.5, then WotC would not have themselves introduced such a class.
RobbyPants 12-19-06, 01:48 PM	Perhaps the 3.0 DWS isn't overpowered. I'll leave that debate up for a different thread. I had two main reasons for doing this rebuild: The 3.0 DWS may or may not have been overpowered, but the super crit bonuses did have potential for abuse. Also, I wanted to pull out the concealment reductions (as I haven't seen a 3.5 precedence for it). I wanted to modify the flavor slightly. Anyway, as it stands, what do you all think of the rebuild as presented? How is the power progression? Do you see any weak or broken points? I'm also considering working in a concealment reduction where a 50% is treated as 20%, and a 20% is treated as 0%. I'd consider this above the 3.0 concealment reduction only because it seems (from what I've seen) that the 3.5 concealment come either at partial (20% miss) or full (50% miss). Would that be a good capstone ability (by itself or in conjuction with the Greater Critical)? Thanks in advance :)
Elthbert 12-19-06, 03:33 PM	Well since anything 3.0 that has not been redone or outright forbdden is still a valid rule, I don't see why a new deep woods sniper is needed at all--- the origional is completely legit. Why change something that works?
RobbyPants 12-19-06, 04:02 PM	Well since anything 3.0 that has not been redone or outright forbdden is still a valid rule, I don't see why a new deep woods sniper is needed at all--- the origional is completely legit. Why change something that works? Perhaps the 3.0 DWS isn't overpowered. I'll leave that debate up for a different thread. I had two main reasons for doing this rebuild: The 3.0 DWS may or may not have been overpowered, but the super crit bonuses did have potential for abuse. Also, I wanted to pull out the concealment reductions (as I haven't seen a 3.5 precedence for it). I wanted to modify the flavor slightly. Anyway, as it stands, what do you all think of the rebuild as presented? How is the power progression? Do you see any weak or broken points? I'm not saying it needs a rebuild. All I'm saying is that some people have debated the issue, and I decided to post this rebuild, and I'm curious what people think of it. What I'm looking for is whether or not the PrC listed in the OP is a decent class or not. ;)
RobbyPants 12-21-06, 10:50 AM	Last chance... Does the PrC as posted in the OP look good? Too strong? Too weak? I was considering putting a concealment reduction in somewhere as well, where a full concealment would drop from 50% to 20& miss, and partial concealment would drop from 20% to 0% miss. Is it a good idea? What level would be a good insertion point, and what ability (if any) should it replace?
RobbyPants 01-11-07, 12:30 PM	:bump: I have a player in my game that will be taking this PrC next level. I'm just curious for any "last minute" responses from anyone. How's the class as presented look?
Finarin Panjoro 01-11-07, 01:31 PM	I like what you've done. I have two suggestions, both power ups. Add an improved sniping ability early on (maybe 3rd level) . Something like: Improved Sniping: The Deepwood's Sniper may re-hide after making a ranged attack from hidden as a free action and gains a bonus on the Hide check to re-hide equal to his class level. Also something to make him a little more lethal at 10th level: Deadly Shot: If the Deepwoods sniper studies a target for three rounds without being detected he may make a special attack which has a chance to kill or paralyze the target. The target must be within 60 feet and suffer damage from his Take Aim ability (anyone immune to that damage is immune to the death effect). An effected target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 10 +1/2 the Deepwood Sniper's Class level +his Wisdom modifier. Alternatively you could give the target a penalty on his save versus death from massive damage (making the sniper's critical hits more deadly) or allow the Sniper to force a save versus massive damage with a lower damage amount. Maybe something like: Critical Damage: Any single arrow shot by a Deepwood's Sniper that inflicts 40 points of physical damage (damage from energy does not count toward this total though it would count toward the 50 point total for a normal massive damage save) forces the target to make a Fort Save DC 15 or die. At 10th level the Fort DC becomes 20. Only target's subject to death from massive damage are subject to this save and it replaces the normal save for death from massive damage (the target does not make two saves if the arrow does more than 50 points of damage). Nice job.
JiCi 01-11-07, 02:18 PM	Not bad for a conversion. I like it. How about adding some bonus to Hide and Move Silently ? Something like +2 per level ? We're talking about a stalker here, so closely silently and remain hidden is something important.
RobbyPants 01-12-07, 10:43 AM	I like what you've done. I have two suggestions, both power ups. Add an improved sniping ability early on (maybe 3rd level) . Something like: Improved Sniping: The Deepwood's Sniper may re-hide after making a ranged attack from hidden as a free action and gains a bonus on the Hide check to re-hide equal to his class level. Thanks. It's a nice idea, but the free action would allow them to get a full attack (but that might be what you had in mind). I like the class-level bonus idea... Also something to make him a little more lethal at 10th level: Deadly Shot: If the Deepwoods sniper studies a target for three rounds without being detected he may make a special attack which has a chance to kill or paralyze the target. The target must be within 60 feet and suffer damage from his Take Aim ability (anyone immune to that damage is immune to the death effect). An effected target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 10 +1/2 the Deepwood Sniper's Class level +his Wisdom modifier. Alternatively you could give the target a penalty on his save versus death from massive damage (making the sniper's critical hits more deadly) or allow the Sniper to force a save versus massive damage with a lower damage amount. Maybe something like: Critical Damage: Any single arrow shot by a Deepwood's Sniper that inflicts 40 points of physical damage (damage from energy does not count toward this total though it would count toward the 50 point total for a normal massive damage save) forces the target to make a Fort Save DC 15 or die. At 10th level the Fort DC becomes 20. Only target's subject to death from massive damage are subject to this save and it replaces the normal save for death from massive damage (the target does not make two saves if the arrow does more than 50 points of damage). Nice job. So you're thinking something like the assassin's death attack, but at a range? Interesting... As a matter of opinion, what do you think of this ability for 10th level (in addition to the Greater Critial ability already there)? Ignore Concealment (Ex): When rolling to overcome concealment, the deepwood sniper treats partial concealment (20%) as 0% and full concealment (50%) as 20%. Not bad for a conversion. I like it. How about adding some bonus to Hide and Move Silently ? Something like +2 per level ? We're talking about a stalker here, so closely silently and remain hidden is something important. Thanks. +2 per level seems a bit much, but perhaps adding their class level as a bonus would work well... Thanks to the both of you for the suggestions. I'll have to consider everything before adding it in. Any other ideas?