Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Bishop 04-22-04, 06:57 PM	I need some help because we are playing tonight and I haven't been able to figure things out in a timely enough fashion. I have made a 3e cleric of Pelor, and I have chosen Healing and Sun as my domains. He has a 14 Wis, if it matters. I can't figure out how to pick my spells. Do I get to choose from all spells all the time? Or is there something more akin to 'available' spells that a mage might have in their spellbook? I am really at a loss and appreciate any help in advance! Thanks, w.
Father Dale 04-22-04, 08:37 PM	As a cleric, you get access to all the spells on the cleric list. Its not like for a wizard or a sorcerer, where you only can choose from the spells that are in your spellbook or the spells that you know, respectively. You get them ALL. Do remember that you can only use your domain spell slots for your domain spells and not the regular spells from the cleric list. And also remember that as a cleric of Pelor you can spontaneoulsy cast "cure" spells. So don't prepare cure spells, prepare other spells and then when you need to cure just swap it out. Oh, your 14 wisdom hurts as a cleric. Thats your most important stat by far. Is 14 your best score? If not, then your character is really going to be hurting unless your DM is planning on using very weak opponenents. In our games, if you don't have at least one 15 you get to reroll your stats. If you can, switch that 14 out for your best stat, if you have a higher one. Typically, a cleric will start with 16, 17, or 18 in wisdom, depending on how good his stat roles are, with an occasional 15 if you roll pretty bad.
Darth K'Trava 04-22-04, 09:04 PM	A 14 Wisdom isn't too bad for a 1st level cleric. It could be worse, granted.... But that'd be the primary stat to raise at 4th, 8th and onward.... and later getting a Periapt of Wisdom would help tremendously as it ups the DCs of your spells and any bonus spells you'd get of various levels.
The Bishop 04-22-04, 09:13 PM	Thanks guys. And I rolled a fourteen as my highest stat, using the organic gen method. So, I'm pretty much screwed. w.
Jaerom Darkwind 04-22-04, 10:42 PM	Originally posted by The Bishop Thanks guys. And I rolled a fourteen as my highest stat, using the organic gen method. So, I'm pretty much screwed. w. You're going to want to avoid anything offensive that allows a save, then, since your DCs are going to be extremely low.
Ozar 04-23-04, 12:13 AM	Originally posted by The Bishop Thanks guys. And I rolled a fourteen as my highest stat, using the organic gen method. So, I'm pretty much screwed. w. Man, that's really bad luck. Just checking, you DID use the 4d6, drop the lowest method and not just 3d6, right?
The Bishop 04-23-04, 11:52 AM	Originally posted by Ozar Man, that's really bad luck. Just checking, you DID use the 4d6, drop the lowest method and not just 3d6, right? Yes. And then reroll the lowest stat, and then switch two. It wasn't a great day. As long as the GM takes it into consideration and doesn't populate the campaign with a bunch of 18s, I should be okay. Or I will die quickly and have to roll a new character. w.
The Bishop 04-23-04, 11:55 AM	Originally posted by Jaerom Darkwind You're going to want to avoid anything offensive that allows a save, then, since your DCs are going to be extremely low. At least until that Wis gets higher somehow, right? w.
Sir Ferdinand 04-23-04, 01:15 PM	By The Bishop: Originally posted by Jaerom Darkwind You're going to want to avoid anything offensive that allows a save, then, since your DCs are going to be extremely low. At least until that Wis gets higher somehow, right? Jaerom Darkwind is exaggerating a lot here. Your DCs for the spells aren't extremely low. They're average. With Wisdom 16 (a very good score already) your spell DCs would be only 1 higher, so according to Jaerom Darkwind, your spell DCs would still be very low. Wisdom 18 would give you low DCs and Wisdom 20 could give you decent DCs... according to JD. So as you can see, he's exaggerating. While Wisdom 14 for a Cleric is a bit low, it's still enough. And at 4th, 8th, etc. levels you'll get to add 1 bonus to Wisdom, and at 8th level for example, you should have enough money to buy Periapt of Wisdom +2 at least. So at 8th level, you would have Wisdom 18 which is a very good score. Another way to raise your spell DCs is to cast Owl's Wisdom (2nd level spell) which gives you 4 Wisdom for 1 minute per level. In combat it's very useful if you cast spells which require saves. And as for not choosing Healing domain according to Father Dale (at least that's how I viewed it), don't listen to him. Healing domain is very useful domain especially at lower levels, and at higher levels it can be useful as well. At least in our game, we run out of healing spells every now and then, so an extra healing spell is always useful.
Father Dale 04-23-04, 08:26 PM	No, thats not at all what I said. The healing domain is a great domain. I never said it wasn't. I can see how what I said could mean don't prepare any cure spells "as domain spells", as I didn't specificy what kind of spells I was talking about. But then again I didn't specify that I was including domain spells either. Although I specificly talk about swapping out spells, and that only applies to non-domain spells. Regardless... Its certainly not necessarily a bad idea to prepare domain cure spells. It will depend on the circumstances, i.e. what you are planning on doing that day, what kinds of encounters you have been facing or are likely to face, what other spells you are preparing, what other domain spells are available, how many spells you get all together. examples: Heal is of course a great domain spell, and I doubt I would prepare fire seeds in its place unless I pretty much knew I was going to be needing exploding acorns or berries. Plus, heal can't be swapped in like a cure spell anyways. At lower levels I would probably use cure light wounds as the lvl 1 domain spell instead of endure elements, but at higher levels with a bunch of low level spells available that probably won't get used and which can be swapped out for cure light wounds anyways, I probably would prepare endure elements instead, as you never know it might just be handy. But if I had a scroll of endure elements I probably would just go with the cure light wounds anyways. So as for preparing cure spells in domain slots, it really all depends on the circumstances...
Eldren 04-24-04, 12:01 AM	You aren't "screwed" for having a 14 in Wisdom as a Cleric, but it makes life a little more difficult than if you had a higher score (as most lower scores tend to do...). While it's important for the purposes of having a higher Will save and increasing the Difficulty Class for saves against the spells you cast at others, the real importance of Wisdom for a Cleric is how high a level of spell it allows the character to cast. Starting off with 14, however, is fine, as long as you put all of your stat increases into Wisdom as you go up. The unfortunate reality of this is that you aren't going to be able to cast 9th level spells by the time you reach 17th level, as if you put all your points from leveling into Wisdom, and receive nothing else to bump Wisdom up, you're only going to have an 18 Wisdom when you reach 16th level. At 17th level is when you first have access to 9th level magic, but you aren't going to be able to cast it until you're 20th level if you receive no other boosts to Wisdom. This locks you off from vital spells like True Resurrection and Miracle. At the very least, True Resurrection is going to be a life-saver (literally) at that level, and much preferred to the lesser death-erasing spells, because with that you don't lose a level from being brought back to life. It's a little suboptimal, but it's still workable. However, I'd do everything in your power to get some kind of one-point boost to Wisdom, outside of your level-based stat increases, before you reach 17th level, so that when you hit that point, you'll have the needed Wisdom of 19 to cast 9th level magic.
fractal 04-24-04, 12:21 AM	Originally posted by Eldren It's a little suboptimal, but it's still workable. However, I'd do everything in your power to get some kind of one-point boost to Wisdom, outside of your level-based stat increases, before you reach 17th level, so that when you hit that point, you'll have the needed Wisdom of 19 to cast 9th level magic. Shouldn't a character of that level just about always have a magic item that adds at least +2 to his or her primary stat?
Sir Ferdinand 04-24-04, 07:09 AM	Shouldn't a character of that level just about always have a magic item that adds at least +2 to his or her primary stat? Yes he should, and I think Eldren knows it very well. I think he just gave an example of a character with low Wisdom without any magic items, but of course a Cleric even at much lower levels will have some Wisdom boosting magic item.
Father Dale 04-24-04, 09:59 AM	While a 14 starting wisdom isn't unplayably bad for a cleric, it is as low as it can possibly be without being unplayably bad. What is going to matter though is: What are your other scores? Do you have some 7s and 8s in there as well? What are the scores of the other people in your party? If they all have a few 16s and 17s, you aren't going to be able to hang with them all that well. What kinds of things are you going to be facing? If your DM likes to throw out encounters that are a little bit higher than normal, you are indeed going to have problems. You will have a tough time effecting things with your spells, and after 5th lvl, you won't be getting bonus spells on your higher lvl spells. Basically though the effects are probably going to be this: - your spell DCs are 1-2 lower than most clerics of your level - your wis save is 1-2 lower than most clerics your level - you get 1-2 less spells per day than most clerics your level. - you have no option but to increase wisdom every four levels, otherwise you will get stuck not being able to cast your higher level spells. Although like I said, it will come down to what your other stats are, what your parties stats are like, and what kind of things you will be facing as well. If everyone else has much higher stats than you, you might want to consider asking your DM to let you reroll.
Darth K'Trava 04-24-04, 09:01 PM	Originally posted by fractal Shouldn't a character of that level just about always have a magic item that adds at least +2 to his or her primary stat? Not at 1st level. One doesn't usually have stat boosting items till at least 6th level, in most cases.
Sir Ferdinand 04-25-04, 04:25 AM	Not at 1st level. One doesn't usually have stat boosting items till at least 6th level, in most cases. But he was talking about high level characters. Eldren was talking about casting 9th level spells, yet he mentioned that even if a Cleric would put all natural ability score increases to Wisdom, it wouldn't be enough at 17th level. And what I and fractal were talking about was indeed high level character, not 1st level character.
The Bishop 04-26-04, 01:04 PM	Okay. I got nothing lower than 10, which is 'average' for a character. At least in theory. I got a couple 12s and a couple 11s, and that's prety much it. I'll post the actual scores when I get home today. The fighter in the party is roughly equivalent, with the rogue having at least a couple 16s, maybe 3 of them. I see the rogue as being unbalancing, either the cleric and the fighter getting their asses kicked all the time or the rogue just stomping everything and outshining the others. As for getting modifying magic item for the Wis score, I don't have anything to do with that until I have enough dough and the requisite level to buy something like the periapt. Everything else is in the DMs hands at this point. I really don't like playing with an unbalanced party. But the biggest unbalancing factor I have eve encountered is an apathetic DM, one who just runs the module as is without taking into account the dynamics of the party and creating scenarios where each class is needed, regardless of UberBadassity. w.
Nick Soapdish 04-26-04, 01:18 PM	Originally posted by The Bishop I really don't like playing with an unbalanced party. But the biggest unbalancing factor I have ever encountered is an apathetic DM, one who just runs the module as is without taking into account the dynamics of the party and creating scenarios where each class is needed, regardless of UberBadassity. That's probably the biggest problem that you'll be facing then. You'll actually be able to handle acquiring the periapt of wisdom yourself if you take Craft Wondrous Item, although if there's a wizard in the party, they'd probably be better suited for it. You can do it as early as 3rd level, although you probably don't have the gold to do much with it then.