Post/Author/DateTime	Post
colecor 10-24-04, 08:34 PM	I played 2nd edition psionics in a Dark Sun for years and I don't understand 3e psionics. We converted over our 2e Dark Sun charecters to 3e when 3e first came out and I *hated* 3e psionics. It just made no sense. The point of psionics in 2e was that they were different than arcane magic, ie, you could do things in magic you couldn't do in psionics, and vice versa. Specifically what you couldn't do with 2e psionics was deal damage (except for a few exceptions, but such powers had their limitations). Now in 3e, specifically in the 3.5e 'expanded' psionics book, I see psionic disintegration. This makes no sense to me. Isn't the point of a sorcerer that he/she can cast spells without memorizing? A 14th level sorcerer can cast disintegrate 3 times per day. A 13th level wizard can cast disintegrate once per day. A 13th level psion can cast disintegrate 13 times a day. The psion only has one power/spell less than then the wizard, can cast *any* of their powers at will and can cast in any armor with no chance of failure. How does this not make sorcerers kind of useless? I'm not being a troll. I actually plan on allowing psionics in a eberron campaign that I'm running. Some of the ideas are kind of cool. Do psions overpower wizards/socerers in people's campaigns? Do people just not allow some powers? Feedback and experiences would be apprciated.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 10-24-04, 08:59 PM	I must say, it seems that almost anyone looking at 3.5 psionics for the first time thinks it's broken. I must then say, no, psionics is in no way broken. Not even a little. It seems like it is from your example, but let's go through it. First of all, this is a bad example because blasting is what psions do best. When it comes to doing as much damage in as shortest a time as possible, psions are the winners. However, this comes at a considerable price. In your example, while the psion can cast disintegrate many more times than a wizard or sorcerer can, that means that they are casting nothing else for the entire day. (And if you think it's super-powerful to cast nothing but disintegrate then you need to get some more experience.) One of the main benefits psionics has is that it is very versatile, but this does not make it broken. There are many things wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, etc. can do that psionics cannot. Probably the best advice I can give you is to either visit some of the other "psionics are broken" threads that are floating around, or wait for BlaineTog to reply, as he will explain it much better than I can.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-24-04, 09:35 PM	I played 2nd edition psionics in a Dark Sun for years and I don't understand 3e psionics. We converted over our 2e Dark Sun charecters to 3e when 3e first came out and I *hated* 3e psionics. It just made no sense. The point of psionics in 2e was that they were different than arcane magic, ie, you could do things in magic you couldn't do in psionics, and vice versa. Specifically what you couldn't do with 2e psionics was deal damage (except for a few exceptions, but such powers had their limitations). Now in 3e, specifically in the 3.5e 'expanded' psionics book, I see psionic disintegration. This makes no sense to me. Isn't the point of a sorcerer that he/she can cast spells without memorizing? A 14th level sorcerer can cast disintegrate 3 times per day. A 13th level wizard can cast disintegrate once per day. A 13th level psion can cast disintegrate 13 times a day. The psion only has one power/spell less than then the wizard, can cast *any* of their powers at will and can cast in any armor with no chance of failure. How does this not make sorcerers kind of useless? I'm not being a troll. I actually plan on allowing psionics in a eberron campaign that I'm running. Some of the ideas are kind of cool. Do psions overpower wizards/socerers in people's campaigns? Do people just not allow some powers? Feedback and experiences would be apprciated. Not really. Disintegrate is an excellent attack spell, but it isn't really the best spell for pure damage dealing. THe sorcerer/wizard spell list is still, by far, the best spell list/power list around. The sorcerer is still an excellent class to be (despite some design flaws -- see my sig for my corrections) for the above reason. Sorcerers furthermore have vastly more stamina as far as spells go than psions do. While psions get more milage out of their highest level powers than sorcerers do, sorcerer not only get more milage out of each spell (since they do more damage per spell slot than psions do per power point) in addition to simply having more spell slots than the equivelent psion power points. In other words, psions are awesome if they start pumping out power points like mad, but they run out quickly, whereas a sorcerer has far more staying power. As a result, psions have to ration their power points more than a sorcerer otherwise would for spell slots. Speaking of spell slots vs. power points, augmentation of powers is an excellent thing for psion powers. However, each power point only ever equals 1d6, whereas even a first level sorcerer spell can mean as much as 5d6 against one creature (as per the DMG spell creation guidelines) in addition to having cantrips. If a psion has the ability to rip through their power points in one battle, however, (such as a major battle that'll essentially be the only battle the psion participates in that day), psions can show off their real power and can tear up -- like how a mage can be the same way after doing major preparations for a major battle -- a single encounter, but will likely burn through most or all of their power points, whereas a sorcerer or possibly even a wizard will still keep kicking.
RayOMan 10-24-04, 10:42 PM	2nd Edition Psionics was broken. That is the 2nd Edition Psionic Handbook was way broken. The Skills and Powers version eliminated the Wild Talent that had more PSPs than a 20th level Psionic. 3.0/3.5 Psionics isn't broken, IMO. As a matter of fact the 3.0 version of Psionics seemed to be weaker than magic. I have not read the entire 3.5 Expanded Psionic book yet so I can't comment on it.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 10-24-04, 11:47 PM	3.0 psionics was very stupid, mostly because they weren't willing to completely ditch the utterly nonsensical 2nd edition version of psionics. It got much better with the advent of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. The XPH streamlined psionics and got rid of the moronic psionic combat.
BlaineTog 10-24-04, 11:53 PM	I played 2nd edition psionics in a Dark Sun for years and I don't understand 3e psionics. We converted over our 2e Dark Sun charecters to 3e when 3e first came out and I *hated* 3e psionics. It just made no sense. The point of psionics in 2e was that they were different than arcane magic, ie, you could do things in magic you couldn't do in psionics, and vice versa. Specifically what you couldn't do with 2e psionics was deal damage (except for a few exceptions, but such powers had their limitations).The XPH (3.5 Psionics) is really much different than the PHB magic system, although the two have a number of similarities. Overall, it feels much different to play a Psion than a Sorcerer. And they did this by things far more subtle than completelly different systems or taking out extremely generic effects (ie damage dealing). For starters, it uses Power Points. Then, it goes on to use the 6 discipline system (which takes a lot of really nice powers away from you). Finally, most of the powers work much differently than any arcane analouge (wow. I can't spell); those that don't and those that are virtual clones generally are ones that the Psion should have anyway, and in some cases have a few small but significant differences (example: Minor Creation is a 4th level spell but a 1st level Shaper power). In other words, they are still quite different, but similar enough so that the XPH slides right in without forcing the DM to learn an entierly new rules set. Now in 3e, specifically in the 3.5e 'expanded' psionics book, I see psionic disintegration. This makes no sense to me. Isn't the point of a sorcerer that he/she can cast spells without memorizing? A 14th level sorcerer can cast disintegrate 3 times per day. A 13th level wizard can cast disintegrate once per day. A 13th level psion can cast disintegrate 13 times a day. The psion only has one power/spell less than then the wizard, can cast *any* of their powers at will and can cast in any armor with no chance of failure. How does this not make sorcerers kind of useless?A) The [PHB] sorcerer was already useless, but let's not open *that* can of worms. B) The sorcerer has significantly greater stamina than the Psion. Very significantly. The Psion is pretty much the only "caster" that has to worry about running out of "spell slots" (other than the highest level spell slots, obviously). C) The sorcerer gets a significant number of spells that work better/differently than similar Psionic Powers and also has some effects that the Psion can't approach duplication of (specifically Illusion). Do psions overpower wizards/socerers in people's campaigns?Absolutelly not. Psions are, in fact, better balanced than Sorcerers and Wizards. Do people just not allow some powers?We don't allow Energy Missile (because of the absurd DC) or Psychic Reformation (which is so horribly broken). Other than that, though, nothing's been banned. Probably the best advice I can give you is to either visit some of the other "psionics are broken" threads that are floating around, or wait for BlaineTog to reply, as he will explain it much better than I can.:D
smrtgmp 10-25-04, 07:44 AM	Didnt read through everything, but I noticed the OP said there wasnt disintegrate in 2nd edition psionics. Not true. My psionicist used it all the time. That is all.
Thorak 10-25-04, 08:26 AM	Something that's only been tangentially mentioned is that, with 3.5 psionics, you can have a Psion who can nuke things ridiculously more effectively than a similarly-leveled Sorceror or Wizard. However, and this is a big however, if he's doing so he'll run out of nuke-power far before the Wizard or Sorceror runs out of spells. As it stands, they're balanced. The Psion gains flexibility with each power, but loses on overall daily power.
Stuntman 10-25-04, 03:53 PM	Didnt read through everything, but I noticed the OP said there wasnt disintegrate in 2nd edition psionics. Not true. My psionicist used it all the time. That is all. Beat me to the punch. Yes, 2E psionics had Disintegrate. Not only that, while a 2E mage (wizard) had to be level 12 to use it, a 2E psionicist (psion) can use it around level 5 or 6. This is one of the reasons I think 2E psionics was horribly broken.
Kilamar 10-25-04, 04:20 PM	It was not broken, just not very elegant. You burned most of your PSP and had around 50% chance of success which did not get better at higher levels. Additionallly targets could make saves which improved with their level. That way a low level Psionic had a higher chance to succeed against a target of his level than a high level one, unfortunately the low level one could try only once and had to sit around for most the remaining day to recharge. Nonetheless, the 3.5 Version is far superior, ruleswise, to the 2.0 Version which was just too clunky for my taste. Unfortunatley they got rid off most of the fluff any style of the Psionics. The 3.5 Psion is just a Sorcerer in different colored clothes. Kilamar
Harliquinn 10-25-04, 05:03 PM	Something that's only been tangentially mentioned is that, with 3.5 psionics, you can have a Psion who can nuke things ridiculously more effectively than a similarly-leveled Sorceror or Wizard. However, and this is a big however, if he's doing so he'll run out of nuke-power far before the Wizard or Sorceror runs out of spells. As it stands, they're balanced. The Psion gains flexibility with each power, but loses on overall daily power. Just some basic information and comparisons to fuel the debate :) Psion vs. Sorcerer/Wizard - Level 10 - Main Attribute: 20 (Int/Cha) Psion Base Power Points/Day: 88 Bonus Power Points/Day:: 25 Total Power Points/Day:: 113 Total Number of Powers: 21 Highest Level of Power: 5th ======================== Sorcerer Base Spells/Day: 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 3 Bonus Spells/Day:: 0 / 2 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 Total Spells/Day:: 6 / 8 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 4 Total Number of Spells Known: 9 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1 (Total:24) Highest Level of Spell: 5th ======================== Wizard Base Spells/Day: 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 2 Bonus Spells/Day:: 0 / 2 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 Total Spells/Day:: 4 / 6 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 3 Total Number of Spells Known: All / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 4 (Total:21+All 0th) (This assumes only gains new spells at base level progression) Highest Level of Spell: 5th ======================== Comparisons: Number of Power Points the Sorcerer would theoretically have: 142 (# of spells of level * power point cost) Number of Power Points the Wizard would theoretically have: 96
Haldrik 10-25-04, 06:12 PM	Number of Power Points the Wizard would theoretically have: 96 Don't forget, Arcane spells have "bonus power points". For example, a 10th level Wizard casts Fireball for a mere "5 pp", but gets 10d6 damage out of it which is equivalent to "10 pp". Wizards get "buy 1, get 1 free". :cool:
BlaineTog 10-25-04, 06:48 PM	The 3.5 Psion is just a Sorcerer in different colored clothes.*sigh* No it is not. They have vastly different spells/powers, and since both class focuses very very strongly on their spells/powers, thats all that really matters.
deathmaster35 10-26-04, 09:38 PM	I'm not being a troll. I actually plan on allowing psionics in a eberron campaign that I'm running. Some of the ideas are kind of cool. Do psions overpower wizards/socerers in people's campaigns? Do people just not allow some powers? Feedback and experiences would be apprciated. I think the 3.5 psionics are poorly constructed, it looks like it wasnt fully playtested. I dont allow it in the games I run and probably never will. Who cares they dont get to cast as many low level spells as a sorcerer or wizard? The high level spells are where the good stuff is anyways, and then can cast more than anyone.
BlaineTog 10-26-04, 09:49 PM	I think the 3.5 psionics are poorly constructed, it looks like it wasnt fully playtested.It does looks a bit like that. Of course, playtesting it prooves how well balanced it is. The high level spells are where the good stuff is anyways, and then can cast more than anyone.Au contrair. Careful analysis of the powers prooves that higher level powers arn't really that much more powerful than lower levels powers (if you spend the same # of power points; it's the # of power points spent that determines the power of the power, not the power's level). A power is higher level because its counters aren't in abundance until higher levels. Take a look over the 9th level powers. They can do some pretty awesome stuff... but they arn't really all that much more potent than augmented powers (if at all). Compare them to 9th level spells and you'll see what I mean.
Rerednaw 10-26-04, 10:17 PM	I played 2nd edition psionics in a Dark Sun for years and I don't understand 3e psionics...<SNIP> How does this not make sorcerers kind of useless? <SNIP> Do psions overpower wizards/socerers in people's campaigns? Do people just not allow some powers? Feedback and experiences would be apprciated. While there are individual powers that are far beyond their normal power level, particularly if in the hands of clever players (i.e. Psychic Reformation and the much-malinged Energy Missile) I think that overall Psionics in 3.5 is much more balanced. In fact, I haven't even banned any of the powers. Just like I haven't banned any spells from the game either. Keep in mind that as a typical campaign progresses, a party is expected to have multiple encounters between resting time. The 'fire everything and forget' approach will enable you to wins hands down the first time, but then you are completely out for the rest of the day. Even more than Sorcerors (see comparison above) a Psion must use his powers sparingly. A 10th level arcane caster casts a 3rd level spell and gets 10d6 area of effect damage. A 10th level psion manifests a 3rd level power and has to spend the equivalent of a 5th level slot for 10d6 of damage. That effectively means he has used up one manifesting or 'casting' of his maximum level power. While the arcane caster still has his 5th level spell slots in storage. Now like the sorceror, the psion gets to choose when and where he uses his powers, so there is that versatility. But even more so than the sorceror, the Psion has a restricted list of powers inherent to a discipline. You want to learn the Psionic equivalent (and a much suckier version in my opinion due to 1/10 the duration AND an xp cost) of Shapechange? Then you will not be able to learn the Psionic equivalent of Mass Teleport Circle. Or True Creation. Or Psychic Chirurgery. Whereas a sorceror can pick and choose his 9th level spells and a wizard can learn them all! I like Psionics because of personal perference and the 'flavor'. No channeling of an outside force, whether divine or arcane, this is all power contained within my character and he cannot be cut off from it, short of some serious mojo (like anti-magic or the equivalent catapsi). No messing with material components (albeit only a feat or two difference), no verbal, no somatic. Just the power of him. Meaning? I can 'cast' while gagged, tied up and stripped to my skivies. (Or course any mid-to high level arcane/divine caster worth his salt has a contingency or teleport for just such an occasion). But again, there is the tradeoff. 9th level spells are more powerful, in general, than the 9th level psion powers. Psionic revivification is weak. (The 5th level equivalent is only available to one discipline and it incur an XP cost upon the Psion and it has a serious time limit.) Psionic Restoration is 2 levels higher than the divine equivalent (but no material component either). And there are other examples. I'd suggest you try playtesting a few characters and run them through successive encounters. In the long run, they pretty much even out. Cheers.
darczero 10-26-04, 11:10 PM	You understood 2nd edition Psionics, and 3.0 is giving you trouble? I can understand 3.5 (I myself am still having a tiny bit of trouble wrapping my mind around it, but I don't have the book yet), but 3.0 is a cakewalk compared to 2nd ed. The 2nd edition Psionicist could have Disintegrate by 3rd level, assuming they had Telekinesis as their primary discipline. And they could use it, maybe once or twice per day at that level, if they didn't use any other powers. 3.0 Psionics was simply spells under a different cloak. And they didn't generally improve based on advancement. Same basic story in 3.5, except that the psion can "Augment" their powers, spending more PP to achieve higher effects. By my estimates, a Psion that augments a power to the equivalent spell's highest potential, and does so for a roughly equal number of powers at each power level as the spellcaster would be casting spells, would get almost exactly the same milage out of their power points as a Sorcerer. In overall spells/powers per day, the wizard is left in the dust, but learns many more, and (if they know what to expect) can make much more efficient use of their superior knowledge than a psion or sorcerer can of their limited power/spell selections. Overall, if used on a balanced level, the three classes are theoretically balanced at the non-epic levels. After 20th, the Wizard, with their continued gain of spells at each level, somewhat outshines the rest, but only in that regard. All three classes can continue to get more powers/spells per day, if they continue to increase the relevant ability modifiers (the Psion doesn't even have to do that much, they simply continue to get more), or if they take the right feats (which are barely worth it until very far into Epic). And as for what powers, if any, I don't allow in my games, I don't yet allow 3.5 Psionics; as I stated, I don't yet have the book. Not because they seem broken or anything like that, they are just another spellcasting class that no one has asked to play. Given enough time to read over the system (classes and powers) in advance, I'd probably allow the psionics system as a whole. I have enough experience dealing with the "Unexpected" to get by.
Rerednaw 10-26-04, 11:42 PM	By my estimates, a Psion that augments a power to the equivalent spell's highest potential, and does so for a roughly equal number of powers at each power level as the spellcaster would be casting spells, would get almost exactly the same milage out of their power points as a Sorcerer. In overall spells/powers per day, the wizard is left in the dust, but learns many more, and (if they know what to expect) can make much more efficient use of their superior knowledge than a psion or sorcerer can of their limited power/spell selections.<SNIP>... Overall, if used on a balanced level, the three classes are theoretically balanced at the non-epic levels. After 20th, the Wizard, with their continued gain of spells at each level, somewhat outshines the rest, but only in that regard. All three classes can continue to get more powers/spells per day, if they continue to increase the relevant ability modifiers (the Psion doesn't even have to do that much, they simply continue to get more), or if they take the right feats (which are barely worth it until very far into Epic). ...<SNIP> Actually, none of the spell casting classes get additional spells per day or powers points per day. Like the spell casters, a Psion's bonus PP is based upon his primary stat. A spell caster taking an additional spell slot at epic effectively gains an 10th level slot. A psion gains 19 power points which is equivalent. Each time a caster take the same feat, he can get a single slot of a higher level, the psion gains the previous total +2 which is exactly the same. So in a sense it is even. Cheers.
Ovistavin 10-26-04, 11:56 PM	[/size] Actually, none of the spell casting classes get additional spells per day or powers points per day. Like the spell casters, a Psion's bonus PP is based upon his primary stat. A spell caster taking an additional spell slot at epic effectively gains an 10th level slot. A psion gains 19 power points which is equivalent. Each time a caster take the same feat, he can get a single slot of a higher level, the psion gains the previous total +2 which is exactly the same. So in a sense it is even. Cheers. I think darczero was refering to the fact that wizards still add 2 spells/level to their spellbook after becoming epic. Psions and Sorcerers need to take feats to gain additional powers/spells that they know.
mr.unknown 10-27-04, 01:13 AM	someone mentioned earlier that a wiz/sor can automatically increase the power of their spells via higher caster LVs, whereas psions can only do so through spending more power points, thus that's the equivalent of spending higher spell slots. but the trade off is, some powers allow what i call double heightening. whereas a wiz/sor's fireball does more damage without higher cost as the game progresses, the save DC still reflects that of a 3rd LV spell, unless heighten spell feat is used. when the psion augments the damage done to that of a wiz/sor, the DC increase by 1 for every power point spent augmenting it. IE. a 10th LV wiz w/ 20 int. casts heightened fireball using a 5th LV spell slot (which is equal to 9 power points), the DC of the ref. save is 10+5 (INT)+5 (spell LV) = DC 20. if the spell was not heightened & only a 3rd LV slot was used, the DC would be 18. now compare it to a 10th LV kineticist's energy ball (the psion has 20 int as well). the power costs 7 pp (equal to 4th LV spell slot) & does 7d6 damage. the DC would be 19 (equaled to a 7th LV wiz who heightened fireball to 4th LV). now the augment to this power is that for every 1 additional point spent, the damage increase by 1D6 & DC increases by 1. so at 10th LV, this psion's augmented energy ball will do 10D6 but the DC will be 22. so the trade off here is that a wiz/sor can spend low LV spell slots (& thus cast damage spell more often than psions), but the psion's power (however few times he's able to manifest it), is harder to resist. not only that, the psion can manifest a energy ball in various forms to negate energy resistance, or bump up a DC by 2 more using electricity, or attain automatic bonuses to damage using fire/cold. fireball can't do any of the above. just comparing these two powers, it would seem that the psion is overpowered, but again, his knowledge of powers is even more limited than a sor, & furthermore, he can't cast nearly as many times as a sor. could.
GRAOUH !!! 10-27-04, 04:58 AM	From SRD, epic psion Powers: The psion’s manifester level is equal to his class level. The psion’s base power points do not increase after 20th level. Each time the psion attains a new level, he learns two new powers of any level or levels that he can manifest. I've played 2nd psions. An adult black dragon "helpless" around 8th level is what I call broken. You waste 1 round for the contact, just have a -7 (if I remember well) on your check, and things you can do just with attack modes on the second round are crazy. Detonate to make your enemies naked very easily, nothing was said about golems… Disintegrate, save or die at fifth level. It became worst with the will and the way, lol. Planar transposition was beautiful (I think it's the right name), you were able to shift an area of your plane with one of the plane of your choice, I don't have to say that they were many uses for this. You were also able to summon planar energies… There's a thing with "teleport others", you are able to teleport a non willing creature where you want, you just have to have a mental contact with her… And this power to rigidify your enemies… I will stop there, because there are too many examples ! There are many good reasons to not go again with 2nd Ed. psionics, lol.
Rerednaw 10-27-04, 09:21 AM	someone mentioned earlier that a wiz/sor can automatically increase the power of their spells via higher caster LVs, whereas psions can only do so through spending more power points, thus that's the equivalent of spending higher spell slots. but the trade off is, some powers allow what i call double heightening. whereas a wiz/sor's fireball does more damage without higher cost as the game progresses, the save DC still reflects that of a 3rd LV spell, unless heighten spell feat is used. when the psion augments the damage done to that of a wiz/sor, the DC increase by 1 for every power point spent augmenting it. IE. a 10th LV wiz w/ 20 int. casts heightened fireball using a 5th LV spell slot (which is equal to 9 power points), the DC of the ref. save is 10+5 (INT)+5 (spell LV) = DC 20. if the spell was not heightened & only a 3rd LV slot was used, the DC would be 18. now compare it to a 10th LV kineticist's energy ball (the psion has 20 int as well). the power costs 7 pp (equal to 4th LV spell slot) & does 7d6 damage. the DC would be 19 (equaled to a 7th LV wiz who heightened fireball to 4th LV). now the augment to this power is that for every 1 additional point spent, the damage increase by 1D6 & DC increases by 1. so at 10th LV, this psion's augmented energy ball will do 10D6 but the DC will be 22. so the trade off here is that a wiz/sor can spend low LV spell slots (& thus cast damage spell more often than psions), but the psion's power (however few times he's able to manifest it), is harder to resist. not only that, the psion can manifest a energy ball in various forms to negate energy resistance, or bump up a DC by 2 more using electricity, or attain automatic bonuses to damage using fire/cold. fireball can't do any of the above. just comparing these two powers, it would seem that the psion is overpowered, but again, his knowledge of powers is even more limited than a sor, & furthermore, he can't cast nearly as many times as a sor. could. Well we are comparing a 3rd level spell to 4th level power. And Energy Ball scales the save DC at +1 every 2 Power Points. Or basically the same effect as heighten spell (as the spell caster already gets the free damage scaling). As far as saving throws, Spell Focus automatically applies to one school of spells. When a Psion wants to use the equivalent of Spell Focus, he has to expend his psionic focus. And then spend a full-round AoO provoking action to regain his focus. When a Psion wants to Empower, Extend, Maximize, Quicken, he has to: 1) expend the equivalent power points as if casting a higher level spell 2) expend his psionic focus I think all in all, it balances out. Cheers.
mr.unknown 10-27-04, 09:37 AM	i guess double heightening only applies to energy stun & energy missile.
Kilamar 10-27-04, 04:48 PM	No it is not. They have vastly different spells/powers, and since both class focuses very very strongly on their spells/powers, thats all that really matters. There are some original ones, but most are very similar. And as long as you are not flavour oriented but look for the best bang for the buck you will probably choose powers that are very similar to arcane powers. Add to that the spontanous power use and you end up with something that is very similar to a sorceror. Look at the power lists from 2E and 3.0/3.5, you will see the difference. Kilamar
Templar_Prime 10-27-04, 08:39 PM	The biggest problem with psionics in D&D is that they're treated like magic. And it's only been getting worse as the systems evolve.
colecor 10-28-04, 07:32 PM	Firstly I agree with whoever said that 2e psionics was broken as well. In some ways very broken. I totally agree with that. I played it extensively in Darksun and it really needed some 'modifications' to work properly. So I'm not in love with it either. What it did do however is justify a new class. This is my whole arguement as to why 3/3.5e psionics is broken. 2e psionics allowed you to do things that other classes couldn't, and wouldn't allow you to do things other classes could. Was there psionic disintegration in 2e? I don't remember that. It wasn't in the main book as far as I remember (I don't own it though). Maybe it was bad example. The point is that you couldn't do mass damage like fireball; probably because whoever wrote the 2e psionics book thought that if you wanted to do mass damage, you should be a wizard. And that's my thought as well. Psionisist shouldn't be able to deal mass damage. They shouldn't be able to cast classic wizards spells like knock and fly. And they definitely *definitely* shouldn't be allowed to heal, ie, psionic restoration, body adjustment. Body adjustment is ridiculous. It would sort of be reasonable if there was no obvious options for abuse, but there is, in the form of empathic transfer. Lets say 'Grok' the willy half-orc needs 50 points of healing. A 12th level cleric would probably either just cast heal or use up a bunch of cure spells, which would probably end up being 2 cure critical (4th level), 3-4 cure moderate (3rd level).. so on and so forth, depending of what spell slots the cleric wanted to give up. A 12th level psychic warrior casts empathic transfer at maximum for 11pp, taking only half the actually damage. Then uses body adjustment augments it with 8 power points for a total of 11. A 12th level psion would be similar but would have far more pps to spend and less of a hp reserve to suck up other people's damage. Now 22pp is the equvalent of 2 6th level slots, a lot for psychic warrior, but that pretty damn good for a class thats not suppose to be a healing class. Letting psionics mimic powers of the other classes is very unbalancing. Psionics already has cool, useful powers that the other classes don't have, like mindlink and synesthete.. I would like to see some of the old 2e powers like all round vision and heightened senses in 3e, but I can always just add them in myself.
colecor 10-28-04, 07:35 PM	The biggest problem with psionics in D&D is that they're treated like magic. And it's only been getting worse as the systems evolve. I agree. That's my other problem. If it's just 'magic', what's the point? It's suppose to be 'mind powers', which are different. In the case of 3/3.5e, one would probably go with psionics because they appear to be more powerful (which is my other problem).
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 08:00 PM	What it did do however is justify a new class. This is my whole arguement as to why 3/3.5e psionics is broken. Except that this claim has no basis on reality. People have said this about virtually all of the classes that WotC has released. Psionisist shouldn't be able to deal mass damage. They shouldn't be able to cast classic wizards spells like knock and fly. And they definitely *definitely* shouldn't be allowed to heal, ie, psionic restoration, body adjustment. And why not? Why must healing be such a "sacred cow" of the cleric (and druid?) Body adjustment is ridiculous. It would sort of be reasonable if there was no obvious options for abuse, but there is, in the form of empathic transfer. Utter crap. Body adjustment is 3rd level and has a "personal" range. Cure light wounds is 1st level and has a range of touch. Body adjustment heals, on average (spending no additional power points beyond that of a 3rd level power) 6.5 points of curing power. (1d12) Cure light wounds is a 1st level spell with a "touch" range. On average, at 1st level, heals 5.5 points of curing power. (1d8+1) Cure light also, at fifth level, heals 1d8+5 points of damage (average of 9.5 points of damage) even though it is still a 1st level spell using a 1st level spell slot. This is just the beginning, however. The cleric and druid's healing power is vastly superior to the psion's which is strictly limited to mostly personal spells. Claiming this as proof of the psion being overpowered is ludicrous. In addition, using empathic transfer to heal others with these inferior curing powers is extremely inefficient. Using Use Magic Device to use curing wands is more efficient than this and saves valuable power points. Lets say 'Grok' the willy half-orc needs 50 points of healing. A 12th level cleric would probably either just cast heal or use up a bunch of cure spells, which would probably end up being 2 cure critical (4th level), 3-4 cure moderate (3rd level).. so on and so forth, depending of what spell slots the cleric wanted to give up. Right. A 12th level psychic warrior casts empathic transfer at maximum for 11pp, taking only half the actually damage. Then uses body adjustment augments it with 8 power points for a total of 11. A 12th level psion would be similar but would have far more pps to spend and less of a hp reserve to suck up other people's damage. Now 22pp is the equvalent of 2 6th level slots, a lot for psychic warrior, but that pretty damn good for a class thats not suppose to be a healing class. Letting psionics mimic powers of the other classes is very unbalancing. Psionics already has cool, useful powers that the other classes don't have, like mindlink and synesthete.. I would like to see some of the old 2e powers like all round vision and heightened senses in 3e, but I can always just add them in myself. Psionics doesn't "mimic" the powers of other classes. Just because powers like body adjustment has the same result (that is, it heals damage) doesn't mean the psion or the psychic warrior is a "healing class" or is good enough with these powers to "mimic" these classes to any stretch of the imagination. These emthods you've mentioned are very inefficient and suck down power points readily. Bards are better at being a party's healing power than a psion is. Even if the psion -could- mimic even the bard's curing abilities, it still isn't "overpowered" in any way, shape, or form. all round vision? Heightened senses? -catfall -precognition, defensive/offensive -sense link -detect hostile intent -elfsight -danger sense -umbiquitous vision (this is your all-round vision) -aura sight -detect remote viewing -correspond - ... etc. There are -plenty- of sense-enhancing powers. In fact, it's one of the psion's fortes and I didn't even dip into telepathic or clairsentient powers.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 08:04 PM	I agree. That's my other problem. If it's just 'magic', what's the point? It's suppose to be 'mind powers', which are different. Yes, but another problem is integrating psionics into a core game without the unknowledgeable people having to learn a bunch of new rules, which was the case in psionics prior to 3.5. Now, however, because psionics and magic interact as the default rule, learning a bunch of new rules to make psionics work in a game isn't (entirely) necessary. However, these "mind powers" have uniqueness that doesn't have to translate to a completely different system, which the 3.5 system does very well. In the case of 3/3.5e, one would probably go with psionics because they appear to be more powerful (which is my other problem). Hardly. There's a lot magic, in general, can do that psionics can't. There's also a lot psionics can do that magic can't. There are strengths and weaknesses to both. But if they had the same strengths and weaknesses, then what would be the point of having two seporate classes, hm? I've seen, more often that what I'd like, is that people view things like psionics or generally anything different that's similar to what they're used to as "more powerful." This problem also plagues anything made by players with homebrew stuff. Because it's different than what, say, is in the PHB, the mentaity dictates that it is more powerful. Thus, the result is something that is underpowered rather than overpowered or balanced. I think people view psionics, mistakenly, in this fashion, unless it is blatently and overly weak, such as what 3e psionics was.
BlaineTog 10-28-04, 08:15 PM	The biggest problem with psionics in D&D is that they're treated like magic.This is a good thing. It means the DM doesn't have to learn an entierly new system, which means the DM is more liekly to allow it, which means the players are more likely to use it, which means more groups are more likely to buy it, which means the market for Psionic stuff is larger, which means more Psionics supplementals (and that most supplementals will at least mention Psionics in passing; Libris Mortis has a bit of Psionics in it, as does Eberron). What it did do however is justify a new class. This is my whole arguement as to why 3/3.5e psionics is broken.The new classes are still justified, for a number of reasons. Spontaneous casting had a huge problem: spells were designed with preperation-based casting in mind. The XPH powers were designed with spontaneous manifesting in mind. Hence, it works much better. I cannot stress enough how much different a Psion feels from a sorcerer or wizard. Yes, a number of powers overlap a number of spells. They have to. In order to be a viable class, the Psion needs to be able to at least partially fill the role of "Arcane Caster." Otherwise, the party is better off without one, and that's bad. 2e psionics allowed you to do things that other classes couldn't, and wouldn't allow you to do things other classes could.This is still true, just not for some things as generic as dealing damage. Psionisist shouldn't be able to deal mass damage.Why not? There are many examples in fiction of people being hurt and killed by the power of the mind. Letting psionics mimic powers of the other classes is very unbalancing.No it most certainly is not. Playtest the class. It's balanced. It's actually probably better balanced than the caster classes. Psionics already has cool, useful powers that the other classes don't have, like mindlink and synesthete.And they also miss out on cool, useful spells that the other classes get (Illusion is one big one that they don't get).
shadow mage 10-28-04, 08:36 PM	Letting psionics mimic powers of the other classes is very unbalancing. Psionics already has cool, useful powers that the other classes don't have, like mindlink and synesthete.. I would like to see some of the old 2e powers like all round vision and heightened senses in 3e, but I can always just add them in myself. By this logic psionics shouldn't have telekinesis...
deathmaster35 10-28-04, 08:41 PM	No it most certainly is not. Playtest the class. It's balanced. It's actually probably better balanced than the caster classes. I always find the wording "better balanced" amusing. People use it often to explain why something is better that other things.. because after all, more powerful=better balanced.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 08:47 PM	I always find the wording "better balanced" amusing. People use it often to explain why something is better that other things.. because after all, more powerful=better balanced. In some cases, yes. However, Blainetog meant, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong,) that the class's strengths and weaknesses are less likely to be too weak to be playable or too powerful as an individual character class. Unlike the wizard, for example, it's "peaks" of power and "valleys" of weaknesses are more narrow, whereas a class like the wizard has mountainous peaks (that allow it to dominate a game completely and utterly) and deep, dark abyssal valleys (that essentially put the wizard into a position to where it isn't any more useful than the villiage idiot.) This same truth holds to all of the core spellcasting classes in contrast in some form or another. The sorcerer being the best source for comparison, as its valleys and peaks are most in line with each other. In other words, this does not translate to "more powerful" to being equal to being "better balanced." It means just that: Better balanced.
shadow mage 10-28-04, 08:57 PM	In some cases, yes. However, Blainetog meant, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong,) that the class's strengths and weaknesses are less likely to be too weak to be playable or too powerful as an individual character class. Unlike the wizard, for example, it's "peaks" of power and "valleys" of weaknesses are more narrow, whereas a class like the wizard has mountainous peaks (that allow it to dominate a game completely and utterly) and deep, dark abyssal valleys (that essentially put the wizard into a position to where it isn't any more useful than the villiage idiot.) Well, village genius, 'cause if Int 18 ever becomes "idiot" then damn... Anyway, I fail to see how 3.x psionics are in any way, shape, or form broken. The only possible abuse I can tell would be augmenting, which was conveniently fixed by the rule not allowing any power to be augmented past the user's manifester level. The only power that comes to mind as being way out there is energy missile, as the both the damage and the DC rise point for point when augmented, and I houserule that particular power out. There are enough energy powers that one like that has no purpose. Otherwise, the only major difference (and biggest argument) is between psions/wilders and wizards/sorcerers in particular. The argument is: "psionics can let a person cast SO many higher level powers compared to a wizard or sorcerer's few". Now, that would almost hold water until you look at how damned fast you burn power points when using "SO many higher level powers". That said, unless a series of proven examples can prove psionics to be "broken" (ie unbalancing to an overal campaign atmosphere) than there is nothing broken about them.
colecor 10-28-04, 09:20 PM	Except that this claim has no basis on reality. People have said this about virtually all of the classes that WotC has released. Fair enough. I'm willing to playtest the class in any case. I will change my opinion after trying it. And why not? Why must healing be such a "sacred cow" of the cleric (and druid?) IMO healing should be the sacred cow of clerics (and sometimes paladins). Why? Because this is what makes the cleric class useful. Paladins gain healing but must abide by a 'code of ethics'. If other classes have healing, then there's no reason for anyone to every be a cleric. That's why wizards and sorcerers don't have healing. Healing in general is unbalancing. Obviously it makes players somewhat cavalier about injury, ie, dealing it and taking it. Letting everyone heal themselves just compounds that, and at some point it's going to become a problem. My buddy is having a problem right now as a dm because certain members of our party are attacking everything that moves because they 'might be evil' then restraining them and healing them up because it's just easier/safer then dealing subdual damage. Utter crap. Not really. They aren't clerics. They can heal themselves. They can heal others with a moderate pp cost. I rest my case. A psion can heal 50 hp of damage with an equvalent of two 6th level slots. Then they can blast people with fireball-like powers. Something a cleric *can't* do. Psionics doesn't "mimic" the powers of other classes. Just because powers like body adjustment has the same result (that is, it heals damage) doesn't mean the psion or the psychic warrior is a "healing class" or is good enough with these powers to "mimic" these classes to any stretch of the imagination. These emthods you've mentioned are very inefficient and suck down power points readily. Bards are better at being a party's healing power than a psion is. Even if the psion -could- mimic even the bard's curing abilities, it still isn't "overpowered" in any way, shape, or form. all round vision? Heightened senses? -catfall -precognition, defensive/offensive -sense link -detect hostile intent -elfsight -danger sense -umbiquitous vision (this is your all-round vision) -aura sight -detect remote viewing -correspond - ... etc. There are -plenty- of sense-enhancing powers. In fact, it's one of the psion's fortes and I didn't even dip into telepathic or clairsentient powers. I haven't read the new book cover to cover, it does seem that psions, etc, have a lots of options.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 09:20 PM	Well, village genius, 'cause if Int 18 ever becomes "idiot" then damn... I was gonna say "commoner," but I though villiage idiot would be more colorful. Besides, smart or not, "useless" is still something all a wizard's power can come to in certain situations. Furthermore (on a different topic,) "18" is not the average INT of wizards. Technically speaking, it'd be 15, 16, or even 17 because of the elite array. Granted most people roll their stats and end up with higher numbers, but I think it's funny when people (incorrectly) assume and balance their characters based off of rolls that end up with, say, 18, 17, 15, 14, 14, 10 -- for example. Or better ability scores than that, even, when the elite array (well, 28 pt. buy or slightly better, which is higher, but still close) is supposed to be the "average" that all this balance is based off of. Then people gripe about class balance to one end or another. But that's a whole 'nother rant. That said, unless a series of proven examples can prove psionics to be "broken" (ie unbalancing to an overal campaign atmosphere) than there is nothing broken about them. agreed.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 09:34 PM	Fair enough. I'm willing to playtest the class in any case. I will change my opinion after trying it. That's good. I like a person who is willing to put things to the test rather than argue something they've little experience in playing or interpreting as far as their strengths and weaknesses go. IMO healing should be the sacred cow of clerics (and sometimes paladins). Why? Because this is what makes the cleric class useful. Paladins gain healing but must abide by a 'code of ethics'. If other classes have healing, then there's no reason for anyone to every be a cleric. That's why wizards and sorcerers don't have healing. Not necessarily. Besides healing straight hitpoint damage, clerics are also excellent secondary combatants and can cure an assortment of other, worse ailments. Healing is something the cleric is good at, but it isn't the only thing the cleric is good at. In fact, being relegated to the healing battery, in my experience on the boards, is a had thing. Healing in general is unbalancing. Obviously it makes players somewhat cavalier about injury, ie, dealing it and taking it. Letting everyone heal themselves just compounds that, and at some point it's going to become a problem. My buddy is having a problem right now as a dm because certain members of our party are attacking everything that moves because they 'might be evil' then restraining them and healing them up because it's just easier/safer then dealing subdual damage. It sounds like those players are just being reckless and aren't having any consequences for it. This sounds more like a problem with the DM than healing in general. Not really. They aren't clerics. They can heal themselves. They can heal others with a moderate pp cost. I rest my case. how many power points, total, did this psion use in one "casting?" The cost to do this is hardly moderate or "overpowering." The problem you stated above with the cleric shouldn't even be a problem. Healing is a large part of what clerics do. With a massive and inefficient use of power points, a psion can sort of heal other people, but not nearly as often or anywhere near as well with anywhere near the effectiveness as a cleric using moderate-level powers. Not a good use of power points. Body adjustment is mostly a self-heal in emergencies and a psion isn't even very good at that, either. A psion can heal 50 hp of damage with an equvalent of two 6th level slots. Then they can blast people with fireball-like powers. Something a cleric *can't* do. Right. Clerics can heal 150pts of damage with one sixth level spell slot and "blast" someone with flame strike, a 5th level spell. Unlike clerics (or the arcane casters, for that matter) a psion must always use the equivelent of his "highest level spell slot" or a number of power points equal to his/her caster level in order to be competitive. Something no other caster needs to do. (a 10th level psion must use 10 power points (the equivelent of a 5 and 1/2 level spell slot to do the damage of a wizard's fireball at the same level.) I haven't read the new book cover to cover, it does seem that psions, etc, have a lots of options. Indeed. Their mental powers, except for kineticists, are much more subtle than wizards or sorcerers. That is, their best powers are often the ones that have the least overtly powerful effects.
BlaineTog 10-28-04, 09:35 PM	IMO healing should be the sacred cow of clerics (and sometimes paladins). Why? Because this is what makes the cleric class useful.:rofl: :heehee Clerics are the best healers, but they are good for faaaaar more than just that. Like melee. Then they can blast people with fireball-like powers. Something a cleric *can't* do.Not true. Clerics have a number of direct-damage-dealing spells. Altough strictly speaking, you have to either play a kinetecist to be able to use a fireball-like power, or blow a feat. And direct-damage-dealing powers/spells are still underpowered (although the XPH makes it much less so for Kinetecists).
colecor 10-28-04, 10:51 PM	It sounds like those players are just being reckless and aren't having any consequences for it. This sounds more like a problem with the DM than healing in general. Yes. I suppose my point is that in dnd people are much more cavalier about taking damage then would be in reality or say, shadowrun. Which is fine to a point, after all, it is a game, but at some point it gets totally unbelievable. how many power points, total, did this psion use in one "casting?" The cost to do this is hardly moderate or "overpowering." The problem you stated above with the cleric shouldn't even be a problem. Healing is a large part of what clerics do. With a massive and inefficient use of power points, a psion can sort of heal other people, but not nearly as often or anywhere near as well with anywhere near the effectiveness as a cleric using moderate-level powers. Not a good use of power points. Body adjustment is mostly a self-heal in emergencies and a psion isn't even very good at that, either. I disagree with that because, yes it's not as good as cleric healing, but it's the *breadth* of powers that I'm talking about. Also the use of power points versus spell slots mitigates some of the drawbacks of using more power points. I mean what wizard at high level really uses a light spell anyway? Higher level spells tend to supercede lower level ones. This makes higher level slots more valuable, something that's a non-issue with psionisists. I think my argument of a psion casting 11 disintegrates and a wizard only 2 still holds water because of this fact. And also that the psion can cast this unprepared and wearing armor. Clerics can heal 150pts of damage with one sixth level spell slot and "blast" someone with flame strike, a 5th level spell. Unlike clerics (or the arcane casters, for that matter) a psion must always use the equivelent of his "highest level spell slot" or a number of power points equal to his/her caster level in order to be competitive. Something no other caster needs to do. (a 10th level psion must use 10 power points (the equivelent of a 5 and 1/2 level spell slot to do the damage of a wizard's fireball at the same level.) We're agreed that clerics can heal better. Flame strike is 'okay', but cleric spells never deal massive damage the way wizard/sorcerer spells do. They deal less damage and are higher level. Massive area effect damage is the forte of the wizard/sorcerer (among other talents). The problem that I have is tossing all these various abilities into one class without the thought that it may be underpowering other classes. But I'll get a better idea of how they work when they get played.
colecor 10-28-04, 11:09 PM	:rofl: :heehee Clerics are the best healers, but they are good for faaaaar more than just that. Like melee. Not true. Clerics have a number of direct-damage-dealing spells. Altough strictly speaking, you have to either play a kinetecist to be able to use a fireball-like power, or blow a feat. And direct-damage-dealing powers/spells are still underpowered (although the XPH makes it much less so for Kinetecists). Well, I suppose you've all convinced me they're not *totally* overpowered.. However my group has been playing for 20 years, and are very clever at plus/minusing, ie, they *will* take one level of rogue to make all the 'good' skills into class skills. The introduction of savage species was just retarded. I mean *obviously* that book is broken but *obviously* WotC shouldn't release books like this.
BlaineTog 10-28-04, 11:10 PM	Yes. I suppose my point is that in dnd people are much more cavalier about taking damage then would be in reality or say, shadowrun.Yep. Because the standard D&D setting is fantasy-epic in scope; the hero's are supposed to be able to take massive amounts of damage. I disagree with that because, yes it's not as good as cleric healing, but it's the *breadth* of powers that I'm talking about.Psions only get 36 of them known. Higher level spells tend to supercede lower level ones.Ah, but higher level powers don't tend to supercede lower level ones. The power of a manifestation is based far more off the number of power points spent than the level of the power. This makes higher level slots more valuable, something that's a non-issue with psionisists.Actually, its still an issue. Virtually all powers manifested have to use up a "highest level spell slot." I think my argument of a psion casting 11 disintegrates and a wizard only 2 still holds water because of this fact.11 disintigrates and nothing else. [quoite]And also that the psion can cast this unprepared and wearing armor.[/quote]Spontaneous casting is overrated; its powerful, to be sure, but not more powerful when coupled with limited "spell" selection. And armor is a nonissue. We're agreed that clerics can heal better. Flame strike is 'okay', but cleric spells never deal massive damage the way wizard/sorcerer spells do.They generally don't deal massive amounts of area-effect energy damage, yes. Clerics and Druids are better for it. Direct-damage-dealing spells are underpowered anyway. The problem that I have is tossing all these various abilities into one class without the thought that it may be underpowering other classes.Truly, this is a nonissue. The XPH was playtested before it went into print. And it is well balanced.
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-28-04, 11:12 PM	Yes. I suppose my point is that in dnd people are much more cavalier about taking damage then would be in reality or say, shadowrun. Which is fine to a point, after all, it is a game, but at some point it gets totally unbelievable. True, but I can't really say that any game I've participated in has had this problem. With or without Clerics and/or druids. I disagree with that because, yes it's not as good as cleric healing, but it's the *breadth* of powers that I'm talking about. Also the use of power points versus spell slots mitigates some of the drawbacks of using more power points. I mean what wizard at high level really uses a light spell anyway? Higher level spells tend to supercede lower level ones. This makes higher level slots more valuable, something that's a non-issue with psionisists. I think my argument of a psion casting 11 disintegrates and a wizard only 2 still holds water because of this fact. And also that the psion can cast this unprepared and wearing armor. Yes, but there are two problems with that logic. 1) there are a *lot* more sorcerer/wizard spells (and methods allowing the mages to heal themselves, such as through summoning spells (being the most well known.) This is evident simply by looking at the two books. Most psion powers are themed, similarly to how the bard's list is themed. THe psion's powers are themed around the disciplines and their respective "things." The arcane spell list has a much greater breadth of spells. As a second point, psions, in order to do damage *at all* they have to expend as many power points as they can. Unlike sorcerers or wizards, who can count on, say, their third level spells to do up to their caster level in d6 damage, psions must always use their full power points, which essentially meams that the psion isn't really getting a lot out of their higher level powers. We're agreed that clerics can heal better. Flame strike is 'okay', but cleric spells never deal massive damage the way wizard/sorcerer spells do. They deal less damage and are higher level. Massive area effect damage is the forte of the wizard/sorcerer (among other talents). Right. The problem that I have is tossing all these various abilities into one class without the thought that it may be underpowering other classes. But it isn't. The psion doesn't have as much of a breadth of powers as the arcane casters. But I'll get a better idea of how they work when they get played. Yes.
shadow mage 10-29-04, 01:04 AM	Well, I suppose you've all convinced me they're not *totally* overpowered.. However my group has been playing for 20 years, and are very clever at plus/minusing, ie, they *will* take one level of rogue to make all the 'good' skills into class skills. The introduction of savage species was just retarded. I mean *obviously* that book is broken but *obviously* WotC shouldn't release books like this. Er, no offense amigo but when do your little groups' interests reflect those of the rest of the consumer body of WotC products? I personally love the flavor of psionics, WAY more than magic, so of course I feel naturally drawn to psionics and have had much experience with it. Until you really use something in a game you can't exactly say that you know it's balanced/unbalanced (notice I didn't say broken/unbroken). By "books like this" I'll assume you mean Savage Species, a comment on which I can agree (feral template... :twitch: ), but XPH? Broken? Once again, HOW?
colecor 10-29-04, 01:40 AM	Er, no offense amigo but when do your little groups' interests reflect those of the rest of the consumer body of WotC products? I personally love the flavor of psionics, WAY more than magic, so of course I feel naturally drawn to psionics and have had much experience with it. Until you really use something in a game you can't exactly say that you know it's balanced/unbalanced (notice I didn't say broken/unbroken). By "books like this" I'll assume you mean Savage Species, a comment on which I can agree (feral template... :twitch: ), but XPH? Broken? Once again, HOW? I guess my question is then.. in your campaigns do you and your group tend to choose psionisists over arcane or divine spellcasters?
BlaineTog 10-29-04, 01:58 AM	Heh heh... My group has: a cleric, a wizard, a psion shaper (that's me), and (soon) a bard. If we want to powergame, we play Clerics or Druids, not Psions.
hiryuu 10-29-04, 02:28 AM	The biggest problem with psionics in D&D is that they're treated like magic. And it's only been getting worse as the systems evolve. This is the biggest problem, not that they're treated as magic, but that people refuse to see them as such. Psionics are magic. They're breaking the laws of normal universe phsyics (i.e. ours) up the wazoo. Like, with a blatant disregard for conservation of matter and energy, and the fact that it's impossible for the power of the mind (which is inside the body and has no muscles) to pick up and manipulate objects, set fires, and perform other sundry feats of psychokinesis (that's why we have hands, you know). So, basically, it's supernatural, which means it's magic. Magic is any attempt at using the supernatural to influence events. That's what it's always meant. Using your sheer willpower to set things on fire or Michael Ironsides making someone's head explode = impossible in the real world = a form of magic, just as much as wiggling your fingers and speaking in gibberish to blow up some orcs. I wish people would get over it.
BlaineTog 10-29-04, 02:32 AM	hiryuu, What's your point?
TheDarkestOfAngels 10-29-04, 03:11 AM	the biggest and probably only difference between D&D psionics and D&D magic is the source of the power. Divine Magic comes from gods. Arcane Magic "involves the direct manipulation of mystic energies." (The exact source varies from campaign world to campaign world.) Psionics comes from the mind. They are all very similar to the effect that they all require mental processes of one kind or another to manipulate. This is where the distinction lies, it seems.
Babs 10-29-04, 04:53 AM	You know, the thing that i don't like about psionics is that yu ain't simply able to capture them as dm. A psion can always use their powers (except if there out of pp). Even when they are prisoned, blindfolded, mouthfolded and got a couple of manacles around their arms and legs they still just can blast the guards away and free themselves. Besides. I think psions are a bit of allright but the one class which is overpowered is the psychic warrior. Fighter feats AND spell-casting in armor :confused:
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 10-29-04, 06:41 AM	You know, the thing that i don't like about psionics is that yu ain't simply able to capture them as dm. A psion can always use their powers (except if there out of pp). Even when they are prisoned, blindfolded, mouthfolded and got a couple of manacles around their arms and legs they still just can blast the guards away and free themselves. Besides. I think psions are a bit of allright but the one class which is overpowered is the psychic warrior. Fighter feats AND spell-casting in armor :confused: That's what you don't like about psionics? Jeez, I think that's one of the major things that makes psionics super-cool, that a psion can stand there, not moving, not speaking, hands in pockets, and unleash flaming doom upon his enemies (let's all sing the doom song!). And the fact that psions can cast while all bound and gagged is also cool, and certainly not unbalancing. As for the armor thing, how many times must it be said? Arcane spell failure means exactly nothing. The only reason wizards and sorcerers can't wear armor is because traditionally they don't. Try completely removing arcane spell failure, I gaurantee you won't notice a significant power increase in the arcane casters. Besides, clerics own psychic warriors. They can cast in armor, too, and they have more and more powerful spells than psychic warriors do. PsiWars are certainly not broken. And colecor, believe me (and everyone else) that psionic classes are hardly superior to the other casters. There's really no reason to always pick the psionic classes over the others. You also shouldn't get hung up on the psions' ability to nuke. Nukes are never that great. People always go, "Ooo, fireball," when they should be going, "Ooo, major image." Don't be taken in by the massive damage of meteor swarm, instead be awed by the awesome power of shapechange and gate.
shadow mage 10-29-04, 06:44 AM	I guess my question is then.. in your campaigns do you and your group tend to choose psionisists over arcane or divine spellcasters? Well, I tend to choose psionics over arcane users, at the exclusion of divine spellcasters (I like the self-suficient idea, being some god's lapdog doesn't sit well with me ;) ). While the rest of my group prefers not to delve into psionics, I've proven that said psionics in campaings are not at all unbalancing and are actually very fun. Psionics are magic. They're breaking the laws of normal universe phsyics (i.e. ours) up the wazoo. Like, with a blatant disregard for conservation of matter and energy, and the fact that it's impossible for the power of the mind (which is inside the body and has no muscles) to pick up and manipulate objects, set fires, and perform other sundry feats of psychokinesis (that's why we have hands, you know). So, basically, it's supernatural, which means it's magic. Magic is any attempt at using the supernatural to influence events. That's what it's always meant. Using your sheer willpower to set things on fire or Michael Ironsides making someone's head explode = impossible in the real world = a form of magic, just as much as wiggling your fingers and speaking in gibberish to blow up some orcs. I wish people would get over it. Well, according to default rules there is a psionic/magical transparency rule. Using this (which most DMs prefer) keeps the game a lot more simple and more balanced. As far as physics goes, remember that dragons live in D&D. Orcs live in D&D. Christ, Gods interract with their disciples in D&D. The laws of physics as we know them can't really apply (even though there is such thing as relative realism). You know, the thing that i don't like about psionics is that yu ain't simply able to capture them as dm. A psion can always use their powers (except if there out of pp). Even when they are prisoned, blindfolded, mouthfolded and got a couple of manacles around their arms and legs they still just can blast the guards away and free themselves. Not really. A lot of those blast psionics require you to see your target, and all of them have some sort of visual/audio/olfactory/etc. "giveaway" that occurs when a power is manifested. As a guard one might wonder why the bound gagged blindfolded manacled man is glowing and has literal fire in his eyes. Although, unconscious a psion doesn't do so well, so if he's bound/gagged/etc. it would probably make sense to just knock him out... [returns to topic] Besides. I think psions are a bit of allright but the one class which is overpowered is the psychic warrior. Fighter feats AND spell-casting in armor :confused: Actually, this is balanced almost exclusively by MEDIUM BASE ATTACK. It takes them a good bit longer to meet prerequisites for these fighter feats, and their manifesting isn't even great. It's perfect for the class. I've played two psychic warriors and never once managed to push them into the "broken" or "overpowered" area, and admittedly that was a goal for both characters. Please explain how they might unbalance a campaign?
Naeron 10-29-04, 12:15 PM	And colecor, believe me (and everyone else) that psionic classes are hardly superior to the other casters. There's really no reason to always pick the psionic classes over the others. You also shouldn't get hung up on the psions' ability to nuke. Nukes are never that great. People always go, "Ooo, fireball," when they should be going, "Ooo, major image." Don't be taken in by the massive damage of meteor swarm, instead be awed by the awesome power of shapechange and gate. Absolutely. The direct damage spells have not significantly increased their damage numbers since AD&D without the use of metamagic. However in 3E the Hit Points of most creatures have increased by anywhere between 50% (Ogres) to 300% (Ancient Dragons).
hiryuu 10-29-04, 01:23 PM	hiryuu, What's your point? Yeah, I should probably clarify my point. Psionics = magic. They should not be different. The rulesets are slightly different (I prefer the psionics casting method much more than I like the Vancian magic system), but they should all be subject to the same bad stuff that happens to mages (which is why I did not like the "anti-psionic" feats, as there were no "anti-arcane/divine" options). For the most part, they are: dispel magic, antimagic fields, and so on by default cut off psionics. My other point: psionics belong in fantasy just as much as magic. Someone mentioned that they're not magic, I explain that they are. That's the point, I suppose. Well, according to default rules there is a psionic/magical transparency rule. Using this (which most DMs prefer) keeps the game a lot more simple and more balanced. As far as physics goes, remember that dragons live in D&D. Orcs live in D&D. Christ, Gods interract with their disciples in D&D. The laws of physics as we know them can't really apply (even though there is such thing as relative realism). Sure they do. Magic is just an exception. Barring magic, all other laws of physics apply normally. Gravity, the flow of time, applying force, and so on all work exactly how they do around here, it's just that someone with the knowhow or that special "something" can decide otherwise for a short time period. Orcs could plausibly exist, they're just really big hairy guys with axes or what have you. Dragons, a bit of a stretch, yeah, but they're magical creatures anyway, and we already said magic is the exception. My point still remains: psionics and magic may be the exception, but they still bust up the laws of physics and take their lunch money, they just do it with a different source (or at least think they do. what if psions are getting their power from the same place as everyone else and just think it's all in their head? Deadlands has a neat variation on this.).
Rerednaw 10-29-04, 01:48 PM	Yeah, I should probably clarify my point. Psionics = magic. They should not be different. The rulesets are slightly different (I prefer the psionics casting method much more than I like the Vancian magic system), but they should all be subject to the same bad stuff that happens to mages (which is why I did not like the "anti-psionic" feats, as there were no "anti-arcane/divine" options). For the most part, they are: dispel magic, antimagic fields, and so on by default cut off psionics. I agree. So much so that for just about every 'anti-psionic' feat and power in my game also have a similar effect on magic, or there is a psi to magic equivalent for psions to take. Cheers.
Haldrik 10-29-04, 04:18 PM	Anti-psionic feats: Because of psionics/magic transparency, the anti-psionic feats apply to arcane and divine magic too. The DM "translates" each one as closely as possible.
colecor 10-31-04, 02:51 PM	You know, the thing that i don't like about psionics is that yu ain't simply able to capture them as dm. A psion can always use their powers (except if there out of pp). Even when they are prisoned, blindfolded, mouthfolded and got a couple of manacles around their arms and legs they still just can blast the guards away and free themselves. Besides. I think psions are a bit of allright but the one class which is overpowered is the psychic warrior. Fighter feats AND spell-casting in armor :confused: Err.. monks with escape artist? I wasn't that impressed with psychic warrior. I mean at 10th level base attack bonus is +7/+2 as opposed to a fighter's +10/+5. You can always multiclass to a caster. If I'm a fighter I like to get that attack bonus really really high. Usually there's spellcasters in a party anyway. For building totally self-sufficient charecters however it looks good. Ever heard of bladesingers before?
colecor 10-31-04, 02:58 PM	And colecor, believe me (and everyone else) that psionic classes are hardly superior to the other casters. There's really no reason to always pick the psionic classes over the others. You also shouldn't get hung up on the psions' ability to nuke. Nukes are never that great. People always go, "Ooo, fireball," when they should be going, "Ooo, major image." Don't be taken in by the massive damage of meteor swarm, instead be awed by the awesome power of shapechange and gate. Those are 9th level spells though :-)
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 10-31-04, 03:25 PM	Maybe you missed it... I didn't say shapechange and gate are more powerful than fireball (obviously they are), I said they are more powerful than meteor swarm. My point is that the "nukes" are almost never the most powerful spells available to any class, at any level. Illusions and things like shapechange and gate are some of the most powerful and useful sor/wiz spells there are, and psionicists get nothing like these.
BlaineTog 10-31-04, 03:43 PM	My point is that the "nukes" are almost never the most powerful spells available to any class, at any level.Well, nuker spells are really effective from about levels 5 to 9. After 9th, however, they become increasingly pointless, and before 5th they are just pathetic.
Lina_Inverse 10-31-04, 05:59 PM	someone said other classes shouldnt heal or no one would play clerics?wow you dont know much about D&D do you? clerics are the SECOND strongest class in the game,first being druids.wizards a DISTANT,DISTANT third. who cares about nukes?no smart player uses them,save or dies are strictly better.oh wait psions SHUCK at save or dies,so they get the best nukes,good for them. battlefield control spells are better than nukes too,wizard is still KING of those(wall of force,primatic wall,rock to mud etc.) psions are prolly the weakest pure caster.but they compare well to rogues who are the most balenced class(near smackdab in the middle of the power curve,useful in many situations,about where the monsters are for CR etc.)
RayOMan 10-31-04, 06:14 PM	Clerics are useful without healing in 3.0/3.5. With the right buff spells the cleric can out tank the fighters. With the right spells clerics can hold their own against any class on an individual basis, IMO. The clerics are the best class, from a mechanics point of view, IMO. IMO healing should be the sacred cow of clerics (and sometimes paladins). Why? Because this is what makes the cleric class useful. Paladins gain healing but must abide by a 'code of ethics'. If other classes have healing, then there's no reason for anyone to every be a cleric. That's why wizards and sorcerers don't have healing.
shadow mage 10-31-04, 10:34 PM	battlefield control spells are better than nukes too,wizard is still KING of those(wall of force,primatic wall,rock to mud etc.) lol, When that fully augmented energy missile hits you your mind tends to change a little. Or the fully augmented energy burst, or cone, or... ;) psions are prolly the weakest pure caster.but they compare well to rogues who are the most balenced class(near smackdab in the middle of the power curve,useful in many situations,about where the monsters are for CR etc.) Now, I will agree that psionics in general are fine, not broken at all, but I would never go so far as to say psions are near the weakest pure caster. The sheer versatility and augmentable powers makes for widely varying uses, add a little power here, a LOT of power there, or no power over there, you get the drift. Use steady damage against armored foes and nuke it out against lightly armored foes (namely mages and similar lightweights). And remember, wall of ectoplasm and energy wall are incredible spells and shouldn't be underestimated. They are the ultimate in battlefield control, since they can cut off groups or single out individuals very effectively. Originally Posted by colecor IMO healing should be the sacred cow of clerics (and sometimes paladins). Why? Because this is what makes the cleric class useful. Paladins gain healing but must abide by a 'code of ethics'. If other classes have healing, then there's no reason for anyone to every be a cleric. That's why wizards and sorcerers don't have healing. Not a code of ethics, really no more than any character acts regarding alignment. A chaotic good character should act chaotic good, otherwise it's a DM's job to tell him to mark a different alignment on his paper judging by how he's acting. Regardless, according to Magic of Faerun sorcerers and wizards do have healing now in the form of a seventh level spell called Simbul's sistosomethingdweomer, which converts spells into hp based on level of the spell. BUT that's noncore, so your point's still valid enough.
Haldrik 10-31-04, 11:24 PM	To me it makes more sense for Clerics to spontaneously cast their Domain spells. *IF* they have the Healing Domain, then they should spontaneously cast Cures.
Lina_Inverse 11-01-04, 12:02 AM	lol, When that fully augmented energy missile hits you your mind tends to change a little. Or the fully augmented energy burst, or cone, or... ;) lets do a comparision.shall we? im hit with energyball for 10d6+10,im a lvl10 wizard. i have a 18con(14base+4item) and rolled slightbelow average,2 on every die. 62 hp,now unless he deals near max damage AND i save ill live. now if that were an instant death spell,i would die automaticlly if i fail my save.i have a fort of +7,his save DC would be 21(15base,4int,2magic) so i need a 14 or higher to live.clearly the better choice is the save or die.against monsters who have 3 or more times the hp the comparision just gets worse,and monsters are the primary opponent. Not a code of ethics, really no more than any character acts regarding alignment. A chaotic good character should act chaotic good, otherwise it's a DM's job to tell him to mark a different alignment on his paper judging by how he's acting. Regardless, according to Magic of Faerun sorcerers and wizards do have healing now in the form of a seventh level spell called Simbul's sistosomethingdweomer, which converts spells into hp based on level of the spell. BUT that's noncore, so your point's still valid enough. correct,i somewhat miss when you lost a level for changeing alingment,doing so ussually means poor roleplaying(ill fill in CN but really act NE,or fill in CG and act NE).on the other hand there are situations that dictate alingment change so *Shrugs*
Occams_Razor 11-01-04, 02:01 AM	I don't know that the system is broken, but there is a really potent psion in my group right now, we're all about 3rd-4th level, and his damn astral constructs (I think he has augmented them somehow, and he's not a straight psion) frustrated the DM to the point that he added a bunch of orcs to this one room, so suddenly we were facing off against 12 d**n orcs, and me with a monk who is forced to tank by the other two fighter types who consider consider me to be a tank also, I mean, D**N. But I think it might be that the player has worked the system a bit, since he's the only person who really has a sound grasp on psionics in the group, but I think the solution is more understanding, not changes to the rules. Besides, the guy is glass, I think he's barely got 13 hps. hehe.
colecor 11-01-04, 03:18 AM	someone said other classes shouldnt heal or no one would play clerics?wow you dont know much about D&D do you? I said if other classes could heal it would make clerics less powerful, which is a totally different arguement. The opinion in this thread seems to be that psionic healing is limited compared to clerical healing, so it's kind of a moot point anyway.