Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ToastedAmphibian 01-21-08, 10:00 PM	Im trying to put togeterh a Sahuagan Mutant dervish {4 armed, 30ft land speed 60ft swim speed, bite attack, 4 talon(not usuable with weapons) and 2 rends when grappling or fighting in teh water, +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con, +4 int, +2 wis, -2 cha} The problem is this: On land: 4 iterative atacks 3 offhands x 3 attacks per off hand = 9 attacks 1 bite = 14 attacks. 5ft per attack= 70ft In Water: 4 itterative attacks 3 offhands x 3 attacks = 9 1 bite 2 rakes = 16 attacks, 80 ft Dervish gives a +15 speed bonus(Enhancment) meaning i cannot get close to makeing a full attack while danceing, in or out of the water, without some other kind of assistance. Dash and speed of thought arnt really worth it, as they basically = 5ft per feat, and i have only one feat to spare (Thinking of using it on 2 weapon rend :plotting: ) Is there any hope of getting other NON ENHANCMENT bonuses to speed, or am i stuck with boots and armor of speed + wands of expeditous retreat and cross class ranks in UMD (With a -2 CHA to boot) *Sigh, why do only barbarians get untyped speed boosts? Looking at making it a swordsage using desert wind dodge and the various desert wind boosts that add fire to all atacks for the round.
dman11235 01-21-08, 10:40 PM	Speed of Thought is +10 ft. There's scout, which has the really nice synergy with Dervish, and then Forest Reeve level 1 is +10 ft (CChamp). And then of course monk.
SkipSandwich 01-21-08, 10:56 PM	well, speed of thought is +10ft, but that still doesn't help you much as shanguin arn't naturally psionic. Boots of Skate would get you another +15ft enhancement bonus to land speed (so it wouldn't stack), but that ups to +30ft when going downhill (additional +15ft circumstance bonus). I'm going to assume you've already tried to fit a level of barbarian in your build, but if you haven't, try looking into the whirling rage varient from Unearthed Arcana. Light armor of quickness would give you a +5ft bonus to speed (untyped). So, +10ft from barbarian +15ft enhancement +5ft from armor of Quickness +30ft base=60ft, that's as close I I can get to what you need.
ToastedAmphibian 01-22-08, 02:06 AM	monk and scout are also both enhancment bonuses, and thus dont stack. Lame and sucky, but oh so painfully true. If only they worked like uncanny dodge.... But they dont. A level of barbarian would really hurt... sahuagin favored class is ranger and all. Armor of Quickness? Hmm, i missed that in the MIC when i looked, only saw the armor of speed. However, reread your MiC. In mine the armor of quickness is listed as +5 ft Enhancment Bonus :{
Rebel7284 01-22-08, 02:21 AM	Have your mage memorize a lot of haste spells? Also, if sticking with UMD, there are a bunch of alter self forms that grant a nice fly speed.
ToastedAmphibian 01-22-08, 07:07 AM	heh, well UMD is cross class all the way. And i have a -2 CHA Mod Even with a +2 tool, i still would need to be level 14 to have a 50/50 chance of activating a wand. Are there any other items that could help there? A ring of Device usage or something....
SkipSandwich 01-22-08, 07:55 AM	I got my Armor of Quickness from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, so I missed that particular bit of errata/update stating it to be a enhancement bonus
dman11235 01-22-08, 10:41 AM	I was suggesting either one or the other (monk/scout). Also, I find it wierd that you actually use favored class and such. Hey, if worse comes to worse, you'll just have to cut off your last four or so attacks, which won't hit anyway.
The_Shaman 01-22-08, 11:31 AM	Can't you have a persisted expeditious retreat? After all, at these levels the party mage probably can cast it.
ToastedAmphibian 01-22-08, 04:30 PM	Oddly, i dont think the party is likly to have a mage. The only guy in my group who ever seems to play casters just likes to blow stuff up.... Can you get meta-magiced wands? If so, what would be the cost for a wand of Persitent Retreat?
bkdubs123 01-22-08, 04:45 PM	So what do you want your class levels to be? Just because your favored class is Ranger doesn't mean you need to be a Ranger (of course the free two-weapon fighting feats help). You could do something like Ranger 2 Barbarian 2 Scout 5 (because you won't have the feats until level 9 anyway). What this gets you is a Rage per day, Improved Uncanny Dodge, free Two-Weapon Fighting (which you might be able to houserule as Multiweapon Fighting), and +10 untyped to landspeed, and +10 enhancement bonus to landspeed, oh and +2d6 skirmish. Now. There happens to be a wonderful prestige class from Oriental Adventures called Blade Dancer that fits your need perfectly. You have to be lawful to qualify, so you're going to lose that Rage (not a big deal at level 10 anyway) and the feats required are either required by Dervish, or Dervish gives it to you (Spring Attack). A single level DOUBLES your base land speed. Its not a bonus, it doubles your base. So that's 80ft land speed, 140 swim speed. Not too shabby eh? Build - Ranger 2/Barb 2/Scout 5/Dervish 3/Blade Dancer 1/Dervish 7 Feats - Level 1 - Dodge, Level 3 - Combat Expertise, Level 6 - Mobility, Level 9 - Weapon Focus (whatever). Everything else is up to you. You might want to take a flaw or two to get some other feats in there. Yes, you won't be getting to Dervish as quickly as possible, but its probably the most efficient way for you to get there. EDIT: ****. Nevermind, none of that works... scrap it. You need to be able to cast arcane or divine spells. You'd I suppose you could go with something like Monk 3/Ranger 4/Barb 2/Dervish 3/Blade Dancer 1/Dervish 7. Seems odd, but it could work.
ToastedAmphibian 01-22-08, 05:50 PM	..... I wasnt actually planning on taking ANY levels of ranger. And i have two racial hd anyways, so i wouldnt really be able to take dervish till around level 18 with your build :} Is oriental adventures a 3.5 wotc product? If so i might look into it. Apparantly you can apply metamagic feats to wands at creation, but the price and requierments for making them seem to be based off the resulting slot it would take. Persistant spelkl would make it a 7th level spell. However, it seems there is a feat in complete mage that lets you apply metamagic feats to spell trigger items. (Acording to another thread i just read) How much is a rod of Persistence? With the feat and the rod, i should be able to use a 750gp wand to get it for 24hours, long enough that i wouldnt mind having to try four or five times to get it up.
The_Shaman 01-22-08, 06:38 PM	Oddly, i dont think the party is likly to have a mage. The only guy in my group who ever seems to play casters just likes to blow stuff up.... Can you get meta-magiced wands? If so, what would be the cost for a wand of Persitent Retreat? Hmm, I know Incantatrices could do that, and maybe there was a feat... but other than that, no.
dman11235 01-22-08, 06:45 PM	Rods of persist don't exist...for a good reason.
ToastedAmphibian 01-22-08, 06:55 PM	Stupid multiclass penalties..... Trying to figure out if their is a way to go barb 1, psiwarrior 1 (speed of thought).............. Grafts? Are there any grafts that increase movment rate, and if so, are they enhancment bonuses? Where can i find grafts? BoVD, Libris Mortis, somewhere else? Im AFB right now...
bkdubs123 01-22-08, 07:07 PM	Oriental Adventures is 3.0 I believe, so it might require a bit of finagling on your part to get it accepted. It is a WotC product, so I guess that helps. Um... oh, what is the attack bonus on your racial HD, and do you get any racial feats?
ToastedAmphibian 01-22-08, 09:34 PM	Monstrous humanoid. So: Good Reflex and Will saves, 2+Int skillpoints per level, and Full BAB I get one feat at first level, as always, and i get multiattack as a racial bonus feat......... If your really that curious i can link you to it in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sahuagin.htm
Suspect_Unusual 01-22-08, 11:25 PM	Stupid multiclass penalties..... Trying to figure out if their is a way to go barb 1, psiwarrior 1 (speed of thought).............. Grafts? Are there any grafts that increase movment rate, and if so, are they enhancment bonuses? Where can i find grafts? BoVD, Libris Mortis, somewhere else? Im AFB right now... Lords of Madness, Races of the Dragon, Magic of Eberron, BoVD are the ones that come most prominantly to mind.
The_Shaman 01-23-08, 07:03 AM	IIRC Savage Species, Serpent kingdoms, and maybe the Fiend Folio had grafts too. I think SK had a tail graft that boosted your speed a little.
ToastedAmphibian 01-23-08, 05:42 PM	Tail graft? I already have a tail. That would be... odd.... Id have to rename myself Miles or something. Ill make sure to look through the grafts when i get home tonight. Currently im looking at: Racial 2/ Ranger 2/ Concecrated Harrier 1/ Blade Dancer 1/ Dervish 10/ swordsage 4 (Obviously not in that order) Concecrated Harrier is a kind of holy ranger Prc that gives spell casting at first level. Seemed a slightly better bet than ranger 4 for meeting the Blade Dancer spell req. I don't get nearly as many manuvvers, but i still get Burning blade, Searing Blade, and Infeno blade, so thats fine. My land speed gets up to 75ft (30base+30dancer+15dervish) and my swim speed gets up to 135ft so i should be able to get a full dance attack, atleast in ideal conditions. The skill reqs for all the prestige classes was pretty hard, but with 13 int (Needed for combat expertise) i managed to get eveyrthing together and dance maxed by level 12. So, thanks for the help guys. If you can think of any more speed boosters let me know, and ill let you know if i find anything usefull in the grafts. Edit: I wonder if being able to swim 61.364 miles per hour in a straight line will ever come in handy....
Rulebook 01-23-08, 05:56 PM	are you counting your LA in, or is this an BBEG?
Devigod 01-23-08, 06:04 PM	Instead of taking dervish, use pounce. You can replace the speed bonus a barbarian has with pounce, from a variant in C. Champion. This means that you make a full attack after a charge, which lets you move double your speed. Replace dervish levels with scout for additional damage and speed bonuses. Hope that helps.
Ralvuimego 01-24-08, 01:38 AM	Tail graft? I already have a tail. That would be... odd.... Id have to rename myself Miles or something. Ill make sure to look through the grafts when i get home tonight. Generally, when you get a graft they have to cut something off to open a slot. You don't actually get a new arm with a Ghoul Arm graft, your arm is replaced by the graft. Or at least that's my interpretation.
sally_jones 01-25-08, 11:27 PM	base speed is 30. one level of barbarian adds another 10. three levels of scout adds another 10. boots of striding and springing adds another 10. the feat run adds 5. dervish gets you 15. that all makes 80. since you are going multiple attacks, i would scrap the levels of scout and take 6 levels of spelless ranger. the build would be: Ranger 7 untyped speed/ Barbarian 1 untyped speed/ dervish 10
kalstrand 01-27-08, 03:19 PM	Except the boots, scout, and dervish all provide an enhancement bonus so they all overlap giving you only the highest of the three.
Devigod 01-27-08, 06:40 PM	Did everyone seriously completely skip over my suggestion? As above: Take out your barbarian bonus to get pounce, then you can charge and use a full attack! What does a charge do? It doubles your speed! 30 (base) + 10 (scout) + 10 (boots) ALL times 2 gives you 100. You gain full skirmish attacks without a lick of dervish. Seriously, unless you're not charging, you don't need much higher speed.
dman11235 01-27-08, 07:19 PM	We ignored it because it completely ignores the OP question. He's a dervish. He doesn't care about pounce, as long as he's got the movement speed he needs.
kalstrand 01-27-08, 10:22 PM	Did everyone seriously completely skip over my suggestion? As above: Take out your barbarian bonus to get pounce, then you can charge and use a full attack! What does a charge do? It doubles your speed! 30 (base) + 10 (scout) + 10 (boots) ALL times 2 gives you 100. You gain full skirmish attacks without a lick of dervish. Seriously, unless you're not charging, you don't need much higher speed. As a Dervish he can make a full attack and move his full speed at the same time. The catch is he has to move between each attack.
Devigod 01-29-08, 04:41 PM	Oh, my mistake, I totally missed that he wanted dervish. Sorry guys. It just seems to me a lot of trouble just to get a little extra movement speed and have to invest in a skill for the class. Sorry about my confusion there. But are there any upsides to taking dervish there instead of barbarian dip and then scout or maybe even fighter?
dman11235 01-29-08, 10:57 PM	The fact that you don't need to charge to do this? Seriously. Scouts need to move 10+ feet. Charge will let them, but then what? Dervish lets them do the "then what". Also, they get a damage boost when in a dance. It helps them keep out of direct melee. It looks cool. It lets them get into more strategic possitions. Another thing I forgot: Fist of the Forest is also +10 untyped. It got me thinking: monk/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries/FotF/Dervish. That...would be awesome. High unarmed damage (and it's slashing) +dancing and trancing=fun.