Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hresna 07-28-04, 02:58 PM	alright, 4 lvl18 wiz vs 4 lvl18 druids. playing fields can be anything on the material plane. who do you think would win? fyi, my money is on the druids
JoshRodriguez 07-28-04, 03:40 PM	I would win. I would win big cash-money prizes. Seriously, though, it'd be pretty even. Wizards can summon fiendish tyrannosaurs to deal with the druid's animal companion, but that'll cost them a highly-valuable preporatory round in which a druid can simply charge in and start hacking. Constant trip attacks make wizards weep. But if the druids can't maintain pressure, the wizards can even the field in no time flat. Who knows, man? Who knows.
The_Ditto 07-28-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by JoshRodriguez Constant trip attacks make wizards weep. Disagree ... what's so hard about casting while prone?? :smirk: .. now, if you want to talk about Grapple .. that certainly reduces the options .... :rolleyes:
ConfusedUs 07-28-04, 04:30 PM	The druids. They can heal, have animal companions, can heal, and summon nature's ally beats the crap out of summon monster. And they can heal. Not to mention spells like creeping cold and the like are a good match for fireball/etc
rogue_lettuce 07-28-04, 04:34 PM	Ok.... My animal companion grapples your wizard. My druid proceeds to kick thirteen shades of cack out of your wizard. Repeat that tactic with all the druids. Druids win.:D
Ganurath 07-28-04, 06:06 PM	This assumes simultaniety. Round 1: Druid1 summons a big and nasty and becomes a big and nasty with WS. Wizard1 blasts Druid1. Druid2 summons something else that is big and nasty and becomes a fast and nasty. Wizard2 blasts Druid2. Druid3 blasts WizardX and becomes a big and nasty. Wizard3, if not WizardX, will blast Druid3. If WizardX, will most likely fail concentration because druid attack spells HURT. Druid4 blasts WizardY and becomes a fast and nasty. Wizard4, if not a blasted Wizard, will blast Druid4. If Wizard4 is blasted, Wizard4 miscasts. Round 2: BigNasty charges Wiz1, lays down the hurt. FastNasty flies into Wiz2, lays down the hurt. Druid1, using Natural Spell (a must for Druids) takes a move action toward Wiz1 and blasts him. Wiz1 inevitably fails concentration between BigNasty and Druid1's assaults, move action away. Druid2 makes a move action toward Wiz2 and blasts him. Wiz2 fails concentration, move action away. Druid3 hits Wiz3 with Quickened Creeping Cold and charges, laying down the hurt. Wiz3, for fairness to the Wizs, passes concentration and blasts Druid3 again. Druid4 casts a healing spell on his teammates and makes a move action to get his buddies between himself and the wizards. Wiz4 blasts Druid1, seeming the prominent threat since he is not being attacked. WizX and WizY are dead, unless one of them was Wiz4. Either way, the loss of one or more likely two of their buddies turns things against team Wiz. Druids will win, because they can outmuscle, outmanuever, and outheal the Wizards.
DarkenDivine 07-28-04, 06:10 PM	Think I'll try to play a druid now.
pres_man 07-28-04, 06:11 PM	actually wildshape is a standard action, so unless summon was prepared quickened, then they could only do one. :D
Hresna 07-28-04, 06:38 PM	you can take a feat that allows you to wildshape as a move action instead from MotW. as well as the natural spell feat that let's u cast while wildshaped. Heh, this all stems from a friend who thinks his wizards would win no matter how hard i tried with druids... but seriously, if u think about it. If all 4 of the druids were pretty spaced out and used a summon nature's ally spell to get 1d3 or 1d4+1 animals and animal growthed them... that's a hell of a lot more guys that could help. even with the summoning elementals, that would rid you of a flying wizard since air elementals have a fly speed and are deent fighters (vs a wiz who is not melee oriented). and that's only if they all used summon spells the first round and animal growthed on the second. i had been thinking of 1 druid being shapechanger, 1 being caster (offensive), 1 defensive caster and 1summoner. any tactics that would blow a set of 4 wizards out of the sky though? chances are the only way we'll settle this argument is to actually have a battle between em all eventually...
Seyluun 07-28-04, 07:21 PM	Obviously, it would be 100% dependant of initiative roll. Assuming simultaneous actions, it will heavily depends of the locations of the team members. Also, knowing if buff are allowed before the beginning would help. And if you think than you will ever have the time or the need to heal in this fight, then you need to play a bit more at high level.
Krelios 07-28-04, 07:24 PM	We using the pre-errata 3.5 Shapechange? If we are, the wizards win. Actually, they win either way... Wish.
SOKAR 07-28-04, 07:39 PM	Well, there are a few factors that will need to be considered. If the Druids are Gnomes on riding dogs facing Wizards with celestial Familers, the wizards would win. If the Druids have Dire tigers and the wizards have toads, the druids will win
masterofmayhem 07-28-04, 07:46 PM	Or . . . Wizards all cast time stop, then summon, summon, summon, summon, time stop, summon, summon, summon . . . . and then they activate their rings of blink and laugh at the druids.
Hresna 07-28-04, 07:49 PM	alright, let's try and create a hypothetical scenario here. big open fields with scattered plant and animal life. no pre-buffing rounds or anything as such. all types of metamagic feats are allowed and the druids most definitly do not have riding dogs... ooc, how would the wizards have the upper hand if they had celestial familiars?
ArchonXVI 07-28-04, 10:38 PM	I assume magic items would be allowed if you could make them.
Hresna 07-28-04, 10:53 PM	yea, but nothing that would exced the price given in the DMG for a lvl 18 PC (starting gold) and nothing from the epic handbook
ArchonXVI 07-29-04, 12:17 AM	If each of the wizards stood close to eachother, and each wizard had several forcecubes, it wouldn't even be somewhat fair. Not to mention 3 of the mages could cast limited wish for -7 to their saves (while in the forcecube), and then one with necromancy focus could cast wail of the banshee.
angryman 07-29-04, 12:47 AM	Hmmm...interesting question. Assuming no buffing and simultaneous initiative, I would give the wizards the edge. Round 1- All 4 wizards cast Quickened Improved Invisibility and an empowered, energy subbed sonic- Chain Lightning. Druids, with their poor Dex and Ref save would likely fail against the 67d6 from taking one primary and three secondaries. Each druid takes an average of 201 damage, which without buffs would kill all of them. I would grant that each druid has 18 CON and rolled high average HPs...162 HPs, and that's being quite generous. Let's say that two survive, badly injured. There are now four invisible wizards out there somewhere. Druids cast True Sight, Quickened Flame strike and wild shape. Two wizards are terribly hurt. Round 2- One wizard casts Realty Maelstrom, hillariously gating a random druid to somewhere else, or at least making him get out of melee range...the other three cast Meteor Swarm on the last druid, centering each attack on him, dealing 96d6 damage. they then loot the corpses and fight over the cool items they find. hehe...
acvar 07-29-04, 01:21 AM	Whoever has inititive will probably win. If the wizards have inititive then they cast time stop and do whatever they do to kill the druids. Not sure the best method but i am sure they have something they can use to kill the druids. Force cages and cloudkills come to mind. If the druids get init. then they all cast greater whirlwind centered on the mages and they have 1d10 plus rounds to do whatever they want while the mages are taking 6d6 per round. During thier free turns they can cast miasma on the mages so even if they do survive the GW they will be unable to cast any spells when the get out.
ElvenEnigma 07-29-04, 01:32 AM	I'd have to go with the wizards. Time Stop is just awesome. If they all cast that and then set up delayed fireballs (casting one each round that time didn't flow) around the druids that would be insane damage. Shapechange is much more versatile than wildshape and grants you supernatural abilities (like a beholder's eye rays). Not to mention one (or all of the wizards) could drop a MDJ on the druids....ouchies. And if they managed to get off an Otto's Irrestible Dance via their familiars (or some other means) that would be the end of the druids. But yeah, it really depends on who goes first. Peace
Kinitaro 07-29-04, 10:00 AM	Its all about drown....i hit and the bastards are down.
Hresna 07-29-04, 01:34 PM	simultaneous initiative makes more sense than the 4 wiz or the 4 druis acting before the enemy does. thing is, by lvl 18, druids (and maybe wizards, i'd have to check) can cast invulnerability to elements, thus nulifying any dmg that a ton of delayed blast fireballs can do or if they chose to be invulnerable to lightning dmg, that screws up the chainlightning tactic. I can't remember if it's invulnerability to all or u pick one but even at that. 2 of them take lightning and 2 of them take fire and that can seriously hurt the wizards chances to win, no?
Elgonn 07-29-04, 01:39 PM	The outcome is totally dependent on how many and which books are in play.
Thermanshs 07-29-04, 02:12 PM	wizards win 100% of the time. You seem to have forgotten about contingency (once some savage spellcasters with beasts beyond their feet threaten me activate antimagic field) So EVEN IF the druids manage to win initiative (which is unlikely since wizard's favor dexterity and have more feats to spend on imp. init.) they are blocked by antimagic fields...no summons can approach them...no fire seeds and similar crap.... then the wizards just......play! dozens of combos for 100% success just to mention some 1.time stop-->reverse gravity-->prismatic wall 2.quickened cone of cold(maximized with rod)+meteor swarm 3.time stop-->reverse gravity-->gate to negative energy plane or similar hostile enviroments-->dimensional anchor 4.time stop-->multiple walls of force to trap them inside a cube-->cloudkill inside the trap-->dimensional anchor 5.maze-->summon+summon+summon+delayed blast fireballs+bla...bla... are you done yet? don't beleive anyone can doubt these plans... :behold:
Blakk_Magemaster 07-29-04, 02:23 PM	Druids win hands down! A wizard unprepared is a wizard dead.
Thermanshs 07-29-04, 02:30 PM	same as "a fighter without sword and armor is a dead fighter"..... OF COURSE HE IS!!! SO WHAT!!!!??? What fighter would go in a duel without his arms and what FOOLISH wizard would go unprepared?
detectevil 07-29-04, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs wizards win 100% of the time. You seem to have forgotten about contingency (once some savage spellcasters with beasts beyond their feet threaten me activate antimagic field) I don't think you understood Antimagic Field. That is the worst possible spell a wizard could ever cast in a situation like this. "Dammit... my spells are out. Hey, Rex, go grab that d4 roller with poor BAB while I sharp my scimitar." Again, I will go for the Druids, because they are not a party of 4, but a party of 8. Their animal companions are pretty much like having another party of fighters with them. A small group of Dire Lions can rake one or two wizards, rendering them completely useless, while the rest of the druids focus on the rest.
Blakk_Magemaster 07-29-04, 03:17 PM	I agree with detectevil , Druids have the upper hand no matter which way you shoot it.
Pentar 07-29-04, 03:24 PM	Originally posted by Blakk_Magemaster I agree with detectevil , Druids have the upper hand no matter which way you shoot it. Why..? What if the Wizards all have improved familiars and have casted all sorts of nice little permanent enchantments on them to make them uberized familiars like the Druid's pet? People always underestimate the familiar... Eitherway, this type of hypothetical argument is pointless. You can go back and forth on ifs and what ifs until the cows come home (and go back out again) and still not achieve anything. Either side could win, because both sides have a lot of power by that point in time. The variations in character possibilities are endless. What about magical items? Permanent effects? Prestige Classes? It's all too muddled.
JoshRodriguez 07-29-04, 03:30 PM	Druids would win. End of story. I hear you say "how?" Well, it's pretty easy. I read in the bathroom stall at the WotC office that four druids can summon Captain Planet to their aid. Unless the wizards know "Create pollution" or "Crude Oil Jet" or something they're toast. I'm pretty sure that that's 100% offical.
The_Ditto 07-29-04, 04:30 PM	Originally posted by JoshRodriguez Druids would win. End of story. I hear you say "how?" Well, it's pretty easy. I read in the bathroom stall at the WotC office that four druids can summon Captain Planet to their aid. Unless the wizards know "Create pollution" or "Crude Oil Jet" or something they're toast. I'm pretty sure that that's 100% offical. hmm, I think you're right ... unfortunately it takes 5 wizards to summon Voltron ... :rolleyes:
the Horc 07-29-04, 04:38 PM	Originally posted by JoshRodriguez Druids would win. End of story. I hear you say "how?" Well, it's pretty easy. I read in the bathroom stall at the WotC office that four druids can summon Captain Planet to their aid. Unless the wizards know "Create pollution" or "Crude Oil Jet" or something they're toast. I'm pretty sure that that's 100% offical. I was sure there were 5 Planeteers. Wind, Water, Earth, Fire, Heart.
the Horc 07-29-04, 04:45 PM	Let's see... It takes: 5 Druids to summon Captain Planet, 5 Wizards to summon Voltron, 5 Monks to summon MegaZord (and a bard for the DragoZord)...
Ashenai 07-29-04, 08:45 PM	Have you people not _seen_ level 18 wizards in action? Lemme tell you how the battle would go. Wizard 1: Time Stop. Acid Fog. Delayed Blast Fireball. Delayed BLast Fireball. (time stop ends, one DBF probably goes off) Druid 1: Uh, flail around in the Acid Fog. Try to get out. Wizard 2: Time Stop. Dimension Door over a Druid. Prismatic Sphere. Reverse Gravity. (time stop ends, one druid falls up into the prismatic sphere, auto-frags into tiny chunks). Druid 2: Um, can't see out of the fog, can only move 10'. Cast some buff, or I dunno. Wizard 3: Time Stop. Dang, one of these guys' dire bats or whatever is nearly out of the fog. Forcecage. Couple more Delayed Blast Fireballs, 'cause they go boom! Do I really need to go on? Druids are really powerful... but they have nothing to match level 9 wizard spells.
Thermanshs 07-29-04, 09:22 PM	Hmmm...people tend to ignore contingency and its effects... Detectevil.....are you SO SURE that ALL these dire lions are gonna win initiative and go rake the wizzies? And yes...antimagic field is one of the best options to combine with contingency against a spellcaster...if you think you can depend on your animal companions to win the duel then I don't think you know much of spellcasting... ALSO: what if the effect to be brought in by the contigency would be dimension door 100 feet above the druids' heads?hmmm.... Why don't we bring this fight in the core colliseum to test who's gonna win? all these claims are as stable as a dwarf in full plate balancing on a tight rope...
Xaev-MSU 07-29-04, 09:53 PM	The druids could always shapeshift into 50 HD Dragons. :) Or, the Druids could sneak up on the Wizards without them even knowing it by being too small to see, or they could let the Wizards walk past them and then ambush them by turning back into dragons from their tree forms. Then again the Wizards can do the same. This contest totally depends on who goes first and what the two parties knows about what's going to happen. If the two groups met unexpectedly on the road, having just their normal prepared spells, then the druids win. However, if the Wizards have time to prepare then they will probably win, unless, of course, more than one druid goes first.
the Horc 07-29-04, 09:55 PM	Originally posted by Xaev-MSU The druids could always shapeshift into 50 HD Dragons. :) . Maybe if the GM running the fight was drunk off his ass.
the Horc 07-29-04, 10:08 PM	Originally posted by Xaev-MSU The druids could always shapeshift into 50 HD Dragons. :) . Maybe if the GM running the fight was drunk off his ass.
Xaev-MSU 07-29-04, 10:10 PM	Originally posted by the Horc Maybe if the GM running the fight was drunk off his ass. Haha, go read what Shapeshift does. I don't think you understand. However, as rediculous as it may be, both sides have access to it.
Xaev-MSU 07-29-04, 10:15 PM	Originally posted by the Horc Maybe if the GM running the fight was drunk off his ass. Haha, go read what Shapeshift does. I don't think you understand. However, as rediculous as it may be, both sides have access to it.
Ashenai 07-29-04, 10:18 PM	Haha, go read the errata on Shapeshift.
the Horc 07-29-04, 10:22 PM	Originally posted by Xaev-MSU Haha, go read what Shapeshift does. I don't think you understand. However, as rediculous as it may be, both sides have access to it. If by Shapeshift you mean Shapechange, it is you who are mistaken, for you cannot become a creature's whose HD is greater than your caster level. Last I checked, 50 > 18. Even if we were dealing with super epic characters, or third party cheesiness combinations that man was not meant to know, there is still the 25 HD cap on Shapechange.
Seyluun 07-29-04, 10:23 PM	If contingency is allowed, wizards win, but i think it count as "buffing" (even if no wizard above level 10 will ever, ever go out without some contingency). Of course, chances are Wiz will win all the same. Quick notes: Shapechange is errated and allow only hd=level of the caster, not double. DBF would burn away an Acid Fog. Maximized Subbed Meteor Swarm hurt. In fact it hurts so much than no other trick is needed.
Xaev-MSU 07-29-04, 10:26 PM	Originally posted by the Horc If by Shapeshift you mean Shapechange, it is you who are mistaken, for you cannot become a creature's whose HD is greater than your caster level. Last I checked, 50 > 18. Even if we were dealing with super epic characters, or third party cheesiness combinations that man was not meant to know, there is still the 25 HD cap on Shapechange. My bad, yes, I mean Shapechange. With shapechange, at level 18, you can become a 36 HD creature up to colossal size or down to Tiny. Shapechange allows you to change into something up to twice your hit dice up to 50 HD. In this case, however, I was mistaken, the druids could only assume the form of something with 36 HD. Nevertheless, they could still become dragons if they so wished.
Ashenai 07-29-04, 10:48 PM	Perhaps now would be a good time to brush up on the errata concerning Shapechange. Preferably before contributing further to this thread... :P
SOKAR 07-29-04, 11:46 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai Perhaps now would be a good time to brush up on the errata concerning Shapechange. Preferably before contributing further to this thread... :P Could you drop me a link to where this erreta is written? I would like to see it for myself.
the Horc 07-30-04, 01:09 AM	Originally posted by Xaev-MSU My bad, yes, I mean Shapechange. With shapechange, at level 18, you can become a 36 HD creature up to colossal size or down to Tiny. Shapechange allows you to change into something up to twice your hit dice up to 50 HD. In this case, however, I was mistaken, the druids could only assume the form of something with 36 HD. Nevertheless, they could still become dragons if they so wished. You're confusing Gate and Shapechange. From the SRD: Shapechange Transmutation Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed. You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms. You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. Focus: A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.) Gate Conjuration (Creation or Calling) Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, XP; see text Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: See text Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction. Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate. The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side. A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not. Planar Travel: As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel. You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed. Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below). If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time. A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell. If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane. Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you. Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type. XP Cost: 1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function). Emphasis Mine
the Horc 07-30-04, 01:12 AM	Never mind, I have an old copy of the SRD. I see where he's coming from. They've decheesed it.
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 03:23 AM	Originally posted by Ashenai Haha, go read the errata on Shapeshift. :heehee pity they changed it though :sad:
Failut 07-30-04, 03:48 AM	LOL to the Anti magic. Any Wizard who casts this becomes a fighter with no feats, a horrid BAB, and really low hit points. Just to quote the SRD on Anitmagic field: An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. So, you would contingency an antimagic field and remove any defence/offence that you may have had?
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 04:57 AM	I do not need any magical defenses to protect me...all I need is keep safe from spells till the wizard's round finally come :) NONE of the combos I wrote is barred by the field... ;) (note that I also mentioned dimension door...nothing is solid here)
amodman 07-30-04, 04:58 AM	wizards easy. They'll most likely survive long enough to time stop, greater invis, and then rain uber destruction upon their foes. If some are still alive after that...they can't SEE the wizards. So while their bumb chucking around figuring out what just happened, the wizards then rain uber destruction again and...battle OVER. Some high level wizards could take out armies.
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 05:00 AM	or do something 10 times better than plain invisibility....PROJECT IMAGES!!!
Failut 07-30-04, 05:21 AM	Originally posted by Thermanshs I do not need any magical defenses to protect me...all I need is keep safe from spells till the wizard's round finally come :) NONE of the combos I wrote is barred by the field... ;) (note that I also mentioned dimension door...nothing is solid here) Well, none of the combos that you wrote are barred by the field , if you drop the field. As long as it is up, you can not cast any spells. Not even through your familier. All the druids would have to do that that point is sick their pet on you while they roll up and start wacking you with what ever weapon they have in hand. Note that with AntiMagic Field up, you can not even remain invisable. You are a target for all non-magical attacks, that is all. If you can prove that this is wrong, point to me the page in the one of the 3 core rule books. Or even better, in the PhB that overrides all others because this is a standard spell.
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 05:34 AM	Originally posted by Failut As long as it is up, you can not cast any spells. Not even through your familier Now I see why you insisted on that thing...not meaning to insult you but you're wrong.....as per the spells says (or go ask an author if you may doubt my interpretation...) antimagic DOES NOT prevent a wizard from casting spells...it only SUPPRESSES spells brought within.. So a wizard could perfectly throw fireballs while surrounded by the field BUT if he threw them on himself then the fireball wouldn't work in the field's area ONLY. And invisibility is a petty spell for this occasion...taking my above ruling for granted I could use project images beyond the field's range and do MUCH BETTER!
Failut 07-30-04, 05:56 AM	Originally posted by Thermanshs Now I see why you insisted on that thing...not meaning to insult you but you're wrong.....as per the spells says (or go ask an author if you may doubt my interpretation...) antimagic DOES NOT prevent a wizard from casting spells...it only SUPPRESSES spells brought within.. So a wizard could perfectly throw fireballs while surrounded by the field BUT if he threw them on himself then the fireball wouldn't work in the field's area ONLY. And invisibility is a petty spell for this occasion...taking my above ruling for granted I could use project images beyond the field's range and do MUCH BETTER! I am going to qoute and highlight the spell from the SRD : Antimagic Field Abjuration Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 10 ft. Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: See text An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines. An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.) A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field. Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this. Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field. Arcane Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron or iron filings. The Red highlighed section states that no spells operate in the field. I read that as the caster can not cast any spells in that field since magic does not operate. This might just be the way that I see it, but I do not see anything in the text that would allow you to cast out of the field.
Will Brandiman 07-30-04, 06:19 AM	Originally posted by Failut The Red highlighed section states that no spells operate in the field. I read that as the caster can not cast any spells in that field since magic does not operate. This might just be the way that I see it, but I do not see anything in the text that would allow you to cast out of the field. I agree 100% and with the greatest respect to Thermanshs, this is definitely the way the spell is supposed to work. Nothing magic works inside the AMF. You cannot cast spells. You cannot drink potions (well, you can but they'll just be funny-tasting water). You cannot use any magical items. You are just a guy with (on average) about 80 HP, no decent weapons and a lousy BAB. And you will very shortly be dead.
Hresna 07-30-04, 10:35 AM	you people all seem to be ignoring the fact that playes aren't stupid. They would realise there is an antimagic field and run out of it in seperate directions so not to be easy grouped targets or anything like that. Not only that, but they also have transport spells that rival dimension door and teleport so they can easily evade spells such as acic fog. Not only that, but a druid has only to meld into stone and take refuge in the earth if he realizes that the wizards all cast improved invis on themselves and he can just wait it out. Alright, to make things easier, NO quipment (except material components and spellbooks) and the books that could be used would be the core books, Masters of the Wild, Tome and Blood, Songs and Silence, Sword and Fist, Exalted Deeds, MM1, MM2. not to mention that by lvl 9 spells, both druid AND wizard get shapechange as a spell so it wouldn't tip the balence of power to either since they both get it and they can both use any metamagic feats. Druids can cast quickened spells too. Not to metion empowered, hightened or widened ones...
the Horc 07-30-04, 11:43 AM	Originally posted by Failut LOL to the Anti magic. Any Wizard who casts this becomes a fighter with no feats, a horrid BAB, and really low hit points. Just to quote the SRD on Anitmagic field: I believe the term you are looking for is "Commoner"
magicbehere 07-30-04, 12:10 PM	Originally posted by detectevil Again, I will go for the Druids, because they are not a party of 4, but a party of 8. Their animal companions are pretty much like having another party of fighters with them. So the Wizards can have Improved Familiars, at level 18 that opens them up to some pritty powerful outsiders. I dont think a Dire Lion can beat a 10 HD Feind
amoeba 07-30-04, 01:05 PM	These threads have been done to death and are really pointless. There are too many factors involved and people are too entrenched in their favorite class to make unbiased opinions. Most high level "duels" come down to initiative. I don't even know why the original poster made it a 4 druid vs 4 wizard fight as opposed to a 1v1 duel. In any case, in my humble opinion, the duel should go to the wizards. Many bring up the point that the druids have animal companions and how screwed the wizards would be should the animal companion get the wizard in to a grapple. I propose that this is a non-issue. First, the wizard can cast a quickened dimension door to get out of the grapple. Or before the grapple, the wizard can limited wish for a freedom of movement, or the wizard can quicken fly and simply be unreachable for the dire tiger, etc... The wizard simply has many mobility and battlefield control spells while the druid has close to none. The only flying option for druids are either airwalk or wildshape in to a flying form, both are inferior to the fly spell. The druid has no teleportation magic except word of recall, which is nearly useless in this case as you have to designate place beforehand. Transport through plants would work if fighting in a forested area. The lack of teleportation magic causes the druid to be extremely vulnerable to spells like forcecage. The Druid can pull shapechange cheese to turn in to one of many extraplanar creatures with teleport at will but that is a testament to the brokenness of shapechange and not the greatness of the druid class itself. Even if we do suppose that the druid has an answer for forcecage, he is still very vulnerable against no save spells such as irresistable dance and maze which effectively take you out of combat while the wizards go to school on your comrades. A viable first round tactic would be for the wizards to maze all 4 of the druids and then quicken fly, move 60 feet straight up, allowing them to be invulnerable to the animal companions. While the druids are in the maze, the wizards spend their time buffing and attempting to mind control the animal companions. When the druids come back from the maze, selective irresistable dance and forcecages allow 1 if any of the druids to act in any 1 turn. I just don't see how a team of druids answers this tactic.
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 05:01 PM	Originally posted by Will Brandiman Nothing magic works inside the AMF.You cannot drink potions (well, you can but they'll just be funny-tasting water). You cannot use any magical items. So far TOTALLY agreed. You cannot cast spells. THIS IS where my objection starts...the spell mentions NOTHING about spellcasters being UNABLE to cast spells while enclosed by the field...the only thing that happens is spells taking effect WITHIN the field....so as I said before you can perfectly use freely your components to cast fireballs and throw them OUTSIDE THE field (where the druids stand) -Still having a doubt? -Go to wizards home page and send a line to customers' service on the "support" link....they can have the final word....
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 05:06 PM	Originally posted by amoeba The Druid can pull shapechange cheese to turn in to one of many extraplanar creatures with teleport at will but that is a testament to the brokenness of shapechange and not the greatness of the druid class itself. Agreed with whatever you've so far said apart from this....teleport at will is a spell like ability...unfortunately shapechange grants you extraordinary and supernatural ONLY. So take a double vote for wizards...
amoeba 07-30-04, 05:39 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs So far TOTALLY agreed. THIS IS where my objection starts...the spell mentions NOTHING about spellcasters being UNABLE to cast spells while enclosed by the field...the only thing that happens is spells taking effect WITHIN the field....so as I said before you can perfectly use freely your components to cast fireballs and throw them OUTSIDE THE field (where the druids stand) -Still having a doubt? -Go to wizards home page and send a line to customers' service on the "support" link....they can have the final word.... Thermanshs, think about it. If AMF allowed you to cast spells within it, it would be the most broken spell ever. A 6th level spell that blocked out all magical effects but allows you to cast freely? Does that really make sense? Every caster would get it and mem it every day. Why would there even be a need for the broken initiate of mystra if they can already cast within an AMF? you can't cast in AMF.
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 08:38 PM	If the spell says nothing about casters being unable to cast spells when in a AMF then I insist on this....it ain't a broken spell even the way I interpret it,transform into a commoneer for just magic immunity?Why not cast spell resistance instead? As I said before...customers' service would have the final word...I'm dropping them a line,the response would come next week hopefully. And EVEN IF this comes as YOU said (casters cannot cast spells when in AMF) then they can dismiss the spell once their turn comes...the combo works either way...let's not stuck on this matter anymore, Failut and Will Brandiman,despites you may be right on that point the result is EXACTLY THE SAME for me...wizards remain unaffected by magic so the druid's can pray for mercy once my combos go off...
Failut 07-30-04, 09:49 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs So far TOTALLY agreed. THIS IS where my objection starts...the spell mentions NOTHING about spellcasters being UNABLE to cast spells while enclosed by the field...the only thing that happens is spells taking effect WITHIN the field....so as I said before you can perfectly use freely your components to cast fireballs and throw them OUTSIDE THE field (where the druids stand) -Still having a doubt? -Go to wizards home page and send a line to customers' service on the "support" link....they can have the final word.... You wanted the final word, well I did just that, and here it is. : My question to them was : I have a question on Antimagic field, when this spell is active on you, can you cast out of it onto other targets who are outside the field? the answer that I received was : Dear Failut, If you are in an antimagic field, you may not cast spells at all. Good Gaming! *Please quote this email in any reply.* **************************************** *** Chris Customer Service Department Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 **************************************** *** And their answer seem consistant with the antimagic spell. If you make it so that you can cast out of it, it becomes a much higher level spell that pretty much gives you spell immunity to all spells without a check. That would either be about a 9th level spell or not mortal magic. Even the other spells that offer some kind of spell immunity only offer it up to "x" level spell or just give you a SR.
Thermanshs 07-30-04, 10:14 PM	The world collides beyond my feet :eek: Anyways...combo's functionality remains the same ;)
Druid Roxors 07-31-04, 03:35 AM	Although my money goes to the wizard, there are some tactics Druids can use to compensate. Even within the core rules. It all depends on Initiative/preparedness.
DarkStevenson 07-31-04, 07:50 AM	since the druids are 18th level here's some things they could do a) if the wizards are not flying -transform into an earth elemental (as big as possible) go in the ground and hit them from below (or grapple them) -if the wizard readies an action versus attack then he would have to use either a touch spell (which would provoke an attack of opportunity and potentially disrupt the spell) or a spell that targets something (and since the druid is an elemental most target person stuff won't work on him) but that would still provoke an attack of opportunity causing the exact effect as above b) if the wizards are flying -you can either: -transform into an air elemental and either grapple him or slap him silly with your tornado - dispell the fly and use the above mentioned tactic c) finally another good tactic is: -summon as many (flying or not) creatures as you can (fire elementals would be nice tou counter the fireball effect) in one round -go into the earth as an earth elemental on the next round by the time the mages get rid of your summons you can surface cast the summon again and mole your way to safety btw if you don't have to have a visual contact with where your summons appear (if you are 30ft below ground level and you can say I want it to appear 30 ft above me) you don't even have to come out of your hiding place (: neat. But I don't know if that can happen because I don't remember the rules about targeting
angryman 08-01-04, 07:53 AM	Having played a million wizards, there are three things wizards should ALWAYS take care to be prepared for- 1- grapples...dimension door, its got no somatic components and can be cast in a grapple, but not a pin. Get a ring of Freedom of Movement...repulsion 2- trips- not really a huge problem, see 1. 3- getting hit by things- a minor problem that can be gotten around by stoneskin, ironbody -if you're keen-, fly, blink, invisibility, repulsion, antipathy, prismatic sphere, mirror image, overland flight etc...and a beefy con. And theres contingency- my character's was "if im significantly hurt, cast Stoneskin", boring but effective. Or Complex Contingency from Faerun...this is insane, however... Most of these posts rely on something getting into melee...wizards should be of getting away from big things that can eat them.
SmiloDan 08-01-04, 09:55 AM	Don't forget that a lot of the creatures druids can summon and turn into have tremorsense, which allows the druid to target the square the greater invisible wizard is. There is still that 50% miss chance due to concealment to deal with....but that's what Blindfight is for. Or True Seeing. :rolleyes: I play an elf druid archer 13 right now, and we have a 13th level mage in the party (a DMPC). I am pretty sure I can take her in a one on one battle right now. And she's a crazy multiclass: Wizard 5/fighter 1/spellsword 1/warmage 6 (I think). She did lose a level of spellcasting from the fighter level, but she's still pretty potent. She's an evoker with Transmutation and Enchantment as her banned schools, and that actually weakens her a lot. No buffs! And speaking of buffs, won't most of these 18th level dudes and dudettes have Permanent buffs on? And druids DO tend to have high Dex since their armor is kind of sucky. If the druids are allowed equipment, a Monk's belt is key. My druid has one, and it adds 7 to his AC, (6 from wisdom, 1 from being a "5th level monk"), and coupled with a 22 Dex (stat boosters rock!) and a Ring of Protection +2, his AC is 25. Not too bad. His animal companion is a wardog that wears barding, so the animal has an AC in the mid-30s. Best in the party. That being said, the timestop strateegeree and the extra metamagic feats wizards get could be the gamestoppers. An empowered, maximized Flame Strike is still nasty, since half of that divine energy can't be nerfed by Protection from Elements and the like.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin 08-01-04, 11:24 AM	This is a rather interesting scenario...unfortunately there are too many variables to figure who would be the clear winner... 1. spells memorized (time stop = druids dead) 2. initiative (if all 4 druids go before the 4 wizards, the wizards are screwed) 3. equipment (are we talking naked wizards + druids or are they loaded) 4. distance apart (are the druids stand right next to the wizards) overall i'd say wizards would win just cuz they have spells that can make a bigger boom, but on the other hand druids might win cuz they can engage in melee combat and wizards don't necessarily have all the convient spells needed to beat a druid on hand...i really don't know the answer, this is like one of those life altering questions like...what is the purpose of life? why are we here? is there a God? in a fight between 4 wizards and 4 druids who would win?...time to find the dhalilama
ClementWillowbreaker 08-01-04, 11:46 AM	Ok, Im not going to read this entire thread (since I just started on these forums) to just see if this little thing has been mentioned before, so sorry if it has. Four wizards or druids is a CR24 encounter. So either side is facing an encounter 4 levels higher than themselves- meaning each side is going to get blasted out of existence, and one person might survive on a good saving throw. It is just luck at that point- complete chance if one wins. A more realistic gauge of their strength is to see if a group of 4 lvl 20s can quickly and consisently defeat a party of 4 lvl 16s- a CR20 encounter, or 2 lvl 18s for the same. Dnd isn't about even combat, because in an even battle, each side dies a lot.
Thermanshs 08-01-04, 06:06 PM	Why are you so confused? things are simple...since AMF doesn't let you cast spells when within it (and animal companions are a threat) then go towards the contingency+dimension door 100 feet above the druids' head thing....so wizards have the key even if the druids play first (unlikely though). From then on the party begins! :D
Zelphi 08-02-04, 06:20 AM	If they Wildshape into an animal.... Wizard can just Polymorph other until they either fail the save... or they run out of Wildshapes... Is this 3.0 or 3.5?
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 01:18 PM	Here is a story that will prove how badass druids actually are... Two weeks ago my party got captured in a mission gone bad. we were about to be put to death and i yelled out of i am going to die i am going to go out fighting, i am a level 12 druid. there is a level 13 wizard in my group. i challenged him to a deathmatch. then the entire group said yeah i want to go out fighting so here we are in this battle royal. now we dont have any equipment or weapons and there is a beholder watching us so there is no spell casting until it blinks. so we start fighting and the wizard starts out with a dagger. immediatly the fighting classes make a mad dash for it the rogue of the group grapples him and the wizard loses the dagger as soon as its my turn i cast drown and he is down. i then get grappled. i get slipped a short sword and roll a natural crit and tear this clerics head off. then the two fighting class players are fighting each other. until one breaks free and starts attacking me. which is stupid i thought and he gets backstabbed adn dies. myself and a the rogue are released and i take the corpse of the wizard. Now here comes the best part. i implanted a huge budding Assassin vine with a plant growth spell casted on it into his body with a Templar Stasis and then waited for him to use his last resurrection and then released the TS and his body exploded...the temple had to close down the room that they did the resurrection on it because the plant kills everything in site. DRUID POWER
masterofmayhem 08-02-04, 01:22 PM	Uhh . . . not to sound cynical or anything, but all you really proved was that wizards suck in an AMF, and that lots of criticals go a long way . . . ;) EDIT: Whoa, hold on there. The rogue grappled someone?? Err . . . why? I'm a little confused. Why was everyone trying to kill the wizard? He wasn't exactly a threat, seeing as how there was no way to cast spells and all.
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 01:27 PM	id like to see a wizard take me down with one shot.
amoeba 08-02-04, 01:33 PM	people should stop using examples from their own campaigns.
masterofmayhem 08-02-04, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by Kinitaro id like to see a wizard take me down with one shot. Meaning no offense, but he could. If you use the optional rule of death when you roll 3 20s in a row, that's one way. Or he could coup de grace you. Or he could get lucky and bull rush you off a cliff. He could even trick you and teleport both of you into a volcano. He could poison you. He could also roll three ones in combat and the DM could rule that he accidentally killed you. Can anyone think of any more? ;) EDIT: BTW, I'm still curious. Why was everyone trying to kill the commoner-- err, I mean, wizard when they were in the AMF?
meabolex 08-02-04, 01:46 PM	Oh what silly arguments (: Well, I might as well present my silly argument. . . The druids do not have access to the teleporting spells. How exactly is a druid going to stand a decent chance against 4 characters with wands of dimension door? The wizards also all get to go first thanks to moment of prescience (+20 on initative rolls). The wizards go first and they can move hundreds of feet in a standard action -- or a free action if they have quickened dimension door. Add in time stop for some buffs (including possibly another moment of prescience, (quickened) greater invisibility, and shapechanging into a choker during the time stopped virtual rounds, protection from energy: lightning/fire), summons, and teleportation. Add in some delayed blast fireballs during the time stops. Throw in some fire-immune summons to hold the druids up temporarily. Poof, the druids are dead before they get to do anything. Even with protection from energy: fire, the wizards can deal more than enough fire damage to use up the PfE: fire and kill the druids. Add archmage levels to further grind the druids to a pulp. A ranged-touch Otto's Irresistable Dance is bad, bad news -- so are sonic delayed blast fireballs.
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Kinitaro id like to see a wizard take me down with one shot. Gate to negative energy plane+quickened telekinisis(sustained force through the gate no save allowed)...cheers! people should stop using examples from their own campaigns. Yeah! focus on this issue and show us what you got!can anyone withstand my combos?
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 01:53 PM	druids have a seventh level spell called master earth, this allows us to move anywhere on the earth. this is just like teleport. as long as teh ground is not been modified by a worked stone. so i could earth move to a higher plain and wildshape to a rhino or something thencharge off of the cliff and catch the wizard if it comes to a kamakazi attack also the druid can animal shape into an eagle and start dive bombing the wizards with flamestrike or murderuous mistand stay out of danger and still be able to do damage.
amoeba 08-02-04, 01:54 PM	Actually there is a save when you try to violent thrust a creature.
masterofmayhem 08-02-04, 01:55 PM	Originally posted by meabolex The wizards also all get to go first thanks to moment of prescience (+20 on initative rolls). The wizards go first and they can move hundreds of feet in a standard action -- or a free action if they have quickened dimension door. Good point. Originally posted by Kinitaro id like to see a wizard take me down with one shot. Originally posted by Thermanshs Gate to negative energy plane+quickened telekinisis(violent thrust through the gate no save allowed)...cheers! A good one, but I think he meant, "I'd like to see a wizard take me down in one shot without his precious magic." Or something like that.
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 01:57 PM	Kinitaro...no offense meant from me either but your tactics are funny...you asked for one shot one kill and I told ya my combo...you cannot escape from the negative energy plane unless you have some kind of plane shifting spells which you don't...so you're doomed to die without a save...what a shame...:(
amoeba 08-02-04, 01:57 PM	Originally posted by Kinitaro druids have a seventh level spell called master earth, this allows us to move anywhere on the earth. this is just like teleport. as long as teh ground is not been modified by a worked stone. so i could earth move to a higher plain and wildshape to a rhino or something thencharge off of the cliff and catch the wizard if it comes to a kamakazi attack also the druid can animal shape into an eagle and start dive bombing the wizards with flamestrike or murderuous mistand stay out of danger and still be able to do damage. Is this master earth spell core? Also, to the other post, I'm not sure you can use moment of precience to add to your initiative roll as its neither an ability check nor a skill check, and of course not an attack or AC.
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 02:03 PM	Originally posted by amoeba Actually there is a save when you try to violent thrust a creature. yeah...you're right...I was sure one use of the spell allowed no save and I was incorrect...change it to sustained force then...it works equally well.....(I'm editing my previous post)
masterofmayhem 08-02-04, 02:06 PM	Originally posted by Kinitaro so i could earth move to a higher plain and wildshape to a rhino or something thencharge off of the cliff and catch the wizard if it comes to a kamakazi attack Round 1: wizzy casts quickened greater invisibility and timestop. He then throws say, 4 delayed blast fireballs at you. Round 2: fireballs detonate, druid dies. If the druid doesn't die, he uses his spell to go to the top of the cliff and turns into a rhino. Round 3:Wizard uses timestop again, more pain. If the druid is somehow still alive, he charges the invisible wizard as a rhino, even though he doesn't know where the wizard is. Need I go on? Originally posted by Kinitaro also the druid can animal shape into an eagle and start dive bombing the wizards with flamestrike or murderuous mistand stay out of danger and still be able to do damage. . . . And the invisible wizard could throw fiery death at you from wherever he is. EDIT: Just FYI, the "tactics" I used here are only in response to Kinitaro's tactics, not necessarily how I think wizards would win.
amoeba 08-02-04, 02:10 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs yeah...you're right...I was sure one use of the spell allowed no save and I was incorrect...change it to sustained force then...it works equally well.....(I'm editing my previous post) Sustained force only works on objects. If the object is possessed by a creature, the creature can make a save to prevent the object from moving.
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 02:11 PM	you have some good stuff, i have only been playing a couple months and havent made my way to a wizard yet. but hey each class has their own stuff. also i forgot the master earth spell is from faeruns...mybad
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by amoeba Also, to the other post, I'm not sure you can use moment of precience to add to your initiative roll as its neither an ability check nor a skill check, and of course not an attack or AC. sure you can...it's a dexterity check much as an attack is a strength/dexterity check
amoeba 08-02-04, 02:21 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs sure you can...it's a dexterity check much as an attack is a strength/dexterity check That is a very liberal interpretation. An attack is not just a strength/dexterity check as its modified by other things, like say BAB. thats why attack, ability, skill, AC are all listed seperately in the moment of precience description. Initiative roll is not a straight dex check as its modified by feats like improved initiative, blooded, etc... Also, all the spells (foresight, kelper's skittish nerves) I've ever known that modified initiative rolls, explicitly state initiative in the spell description. Unfortunately kelper's skittish nerves is not a PHB spell and both wizards and druids have foresight in 3.5 so going by the book, wizards and druids are pretty even on initiative modifier unless if you make the argument that druids need 4 primary stats (str,dex,con,wis) while wizards only need 3 (dex,con,int) and thus the wizard's dex might be slightly higher. You can also make the argument that due to the druid's lack of bonus feats, he would be more hardpressed to take improved initiative. But that seems the only advantages the wizard has over the druid initiative wise.
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 02:21 PM	Originally posted by amoeba Sustained force only works on objects. If the object is possessed by a creature, the creature can make a save to prevent the object from moving. can you tell me then which use of the spell forces a subject backwards without a save? (I don't have the PH with me) IIRC there's another use performing special combat actions so it must be this one...
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 02:26 PM	Originally posted by amoeba That is a very liberal interpretation. An attack is not just a strength/dexterity check as its modified by other things, like say BAB. thats why attack, ability, skill, AC are all listed seperately in the moment of precience description. Initiative roll is not a straight dex check as its modified by feats like improved initiative, blooded, etc... Improved initiative is also modifed by a feat as you've pointed out,AC is ALSO a CHECK rather than a fixed number.The way it was suggested as a fixed number was for practical reasons (quicker combat) that's why you can roll for AC as a variant rule in the DMG. And attack is also not a pure check as it is modified by feats etc...still an ability check though very much as all checks (skills,SR,save,dmg....all receive modifiers)
acvar 08-02-04, 02:32 PM	Please everybody that thinks that druids are going to HTH the mages to death you are mistaken. Druids are full spellcasters and although they are the best HTH in the game they are much better spellcasters then HTH'ers. The druids have several spells that the wizards simply can not easily deal with. Without previous buffs or very specific combos designed just to counter them if the druids go first the druids win. Greater Whirlwind will kill the mages most often while allowing the druids d10 rounds to prep for any wizards that survive thier ride. Miasma simply makes the wizards useless. They can not breath, thus they can not speek, thus they can not cast spells, which means they are now effectavly commoners. Add to that the fact that the spell will also most likely kill them and you have a 6th level spell that ends the battle. As I said before it all depnds on who goes first.
Slasher X 08-02-04, 02:32 PM	Wizards would win due to contingency Contingency with teleport will allow them to escape disasters should they lose the initative. Then they can time stop, gate, disjunct the druid. 4 wizards using gate = +4 solars!!!
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 02:41 PM	Acvar...you have yet to understand that the druid's WON'T play before the wizzies since contingency or moment or presience (as meabolex pointed) is on....so the wizards play first whatever happens...
amoeba 08-02-04, 02:49 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs can you tell me then which use of the spell forces a subject backwards without a save? (I don't have the PH with me) IIRC there's another use performing special combat actions so it must be this one... There are none that does not require a save. You can read the SRD. The closest you can get is a bullrush attempt with the combat maneuvers option of telekinesis, this is an opposed check so druid still has a chance of succeeding. Also with bullrush rules, you can't really push him back that much.
acvar 08-02-04, 02:57 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs Acvar...you have yet to understand that the druid's WON'T play before the wizzies since contingency or moment or presience (as meabolex pointed) is on....so the wizards play first whatever happens... And what part of previous buffs did you not understand. It has not been stated whether previous buffs are allowed, and in most TAG events they are not allowed. And even if you are allow the buffs ahead of time I also stated quite clearly that the mages needed specific combos to avoid the spells such as contigency. The big question is what contigency do you use. Do you defend against the whirlwind with your teleport, or do you defend against the miasma? Again without before game buffs which is the norm for these events whoever goes first wins.
amoeba 08-02-04, 03:01 PM	Originally posted by acvar Please everybody that thinks that druids are going to HTH the mages to death you are mistaken. Druids are full spellcasters and although they are the best HTH in the game they are much better spellcasters then HTH'ers. The druids have several spells that the wizards simply can not easily deal with. Without previous buffs or very specific combos designed just to counter them if the druids go first the druids win. Greater Whirlwind will kill the mages most often while allowing the druids d10 rounds to prep for any wizards that survive thier ride. Miasma simply makes the wizards useless. They can not breath, thus they can not speek, thus they can not cast spells, which means they are now effectavly commoners. Add to that the fact that the spell will also most likely kill them and you have a 6th level spell that ends the battle. As I said before it all depnds on who goes first. A wizard must fail 2 reflex saves inorder to be caught in the whirwind. A wizard only needs to quicken an enlarge to get out as the whirlwind only picks up medium and small creatures. 3.0 miasma was broken and was not core. I mean, why don't we play with 3.0 haste while we're at it? Miasma was nerfed and rewritten in complete divine to have a shorter duration. Even that was considered broken and thus miasma was errataed again to have a fort save:negate. Since there is a fort save now, it would be better for the druid to simply hit the wizard with a finger of death/slay living or some such. In any case, the druid's casting options are limited. To counter miasma, a wizard simply needs to limited wish for a hero's feast. To counter death spells, limited wish death ward. Wizards can also up their survival rate by doing a contingency: polymorph (some high con form). In any case, these arguments are pointless like I said. There is always a counter to anything. It is my opinion that the wizard is stronger in 1v1 duels should he know that the duel is coming. That does not mean the wizard is a stronger class. A more accurate measure would be like the challenge threads where both classes are pitted against equivalent CR monsters.
amoeba 08-02-04, 03:05 PM	Originally posted by acvar And what part of previous buffs did you not understand. It has not been stated whether previous buffs are allowed, and in most TAG events they are not allowed. And even if you are allow the buffs ahead of time I also stated quite clearly that the mages needed specific combos to avoid the spells such as contigency. The big question is what contigency do you use. Do you defend against the whirlwind with your teleport, or do you defend against the miasma? Again without before game buffs which is the norm for these events whoever goes first wins. This is a good point regarding preduel buffs. I find that a good rule to implement is that any 1hour/level buffs are allowed but nothing of any shorter duration. At these levels (18), its pretty much guaranteed that hour/level buffs are up ALL the time.
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 03:06 PM	exactly
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 03:08 PM	Originally posted by acvar Again without before game buffs which is the norm for these events whoever goes first wins. If you allow previous buffs is like putting a sleeping mage against a rogue above his head ready for a coup de grace....TOTALLY UNFAIR! so everything goes on equal terms....no previous buffs (contingency can be prepared beforehand and last as much as you like and moment of presience from the previous day) Amoeba...yeah...I guess that would be the bull rush attempt...hell! even 1 foot back can throw the druid into the gate...it specifically mentions that you cannot be "half-into" the other side of the plane...once you touch the gate you're in...
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 03:15 PM	Originally posted by Kinitaro exactly that was in regards to Acvar
amoeba 08-02-04, 03:15 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs If you allow previous buffs is like putting a sleeping mage against a rogue above his head ready for a coup de grace....TOTALLY UNFAIR! so everything goes on equal terms....no previous buffs (contingency can be prepared beforehand and last as much as you like and moment of presience from the previous day) Amoeba...yeah...I guess that would be the bull rush attempt...hell! even 1 foot back can throw the druid into the gate...it specifically mentions that you cannot be "half-into" the other side of the plane...once you touch the gate you're in... well, you still have to beat them on the check so the chance of success is as good as a save spell if not worse as the druid can get crazy bullrush bonuses due to size or extraordinary strength.
acvar 08-02-04, 03:18 PM	I clearly said greater whirlwind. Can you read? Greater Whirlwind can be used by the druids to hit the mages without a save allowed if they form them on the mages in question. I was not aware of the errata for miasma. Where can that be found? And just how are you going to do a limited wish to counter miasma. You can not cast any spells with a verbal componet since you can not breath. Attempting to breath causes immediat unconsiousness and death. This has nothing to do with personal preferences. Without previous buffs the side that goes first wins. With previous buffs Its all up in the air since both sides have numerous tricks to use against the other. As others have pointed out this is not a usefull tool in determining the power of the classes.
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 03:24 PM	Originally posted by amoeba well, you still have to beat them on the check so the chance of success is as good as a save spell if not worse as the druid can get crazy bullrush bonuses due to size or extraordinary strength. then you can try a (quickened with rod) reversed gravity or a bigby's hand if opposed strength checks are a problem ;)
amoeba 08-02-04, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by acvar I clearly said greater whirlwind. Can you read? Greater Whirlwind can be used by the druids to hit the mages without a save allowed if they form them on the mages in question. I was not aware of the errata for miasma. Where can that be found? And just how are you going to do a limited wish to counter miasma. You can not cast any spells with a verbal componet since you can not breath. Attempting to breath causes immediat unconsiousness and death. This has nothing to do with personal preferences. Without previous buffs the side that goes first wins. With previous buffs Its all up in the air since both sides have numerous tricks to use against the other. As others have pointed out this is not a usefull tool in determining the power of the classes. Actually I read your whole post very carefully. Where is this greater whirlwind spell? I certainly cannot find it in either the 3.5 or the 3.0 SRD. I found a whirlwind spell thats druid 8, I find it highly unlikely that there is a greater version 1 level higher, but hey anything is possible. With regards to the miasma counter, I was referring to Hero's feast which made you immune to all poisons which would be cast and eaten hours prior.
acvar 08-02-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by amoeba Actually I read your whole post very carefully. Where is this greater whirlwind spell? I certainly cannot find it in either the 3.5 or the 3.0 SRD. I found a whirlwind spell thats druid 8, I find it highly unlikely that there is a greater version 1 level higher, but hey anything is possible. With regards to the miasma counter, I was referring to Hero's feast which made you immune to all poisons which would be cast and eaten hours prior. It is in the Complete Divine book. And again you mention a previous buff. I have never been involved in a TAG event that allowed previous buffs. Usuing this kind of logic the Druids could have uesed diplomacy to have any number of spells cast upon them by some friendly mages before the battle. No previous buffs or it all becomes pointless.
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 03:34 PM	i think its funny that all of these moves are being done all at once...now i know for a fact taht it is going to be hard to get your team to go at the same time. and it does take an entire action to take out a rod....
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 03:44 PM	Originally posted by Kinitaro i think its funny that all of these moves are being done all at once...now i know for a fact taht it is going to be hard to get your team to go at the same time. and it does take an entire action to take out a rod.... move action to draw rod+standard action to cast gate+free action to cast quickened reverse gravity(as enhanced with rod)=1 round
amoeba 08-02-04, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by acvar It is in the Complete Divine book. And again you mention a previous buff. I have never been involved in a TAG event that allowed previous buffs. Usuing this kind of logic the Druids could have uesed diplomacy to have any number of spells cast upon them by some friendly mages before the battle. No previous buffs or it all becomes pointless. I believe that 1hour/level buffs should be allowed but thats just my opinion. When do you ever not have 1hour/level buffs up in a high level campaign? Whats the point of having different durations then? In any case, the wizard can always silence dispel magic. Besides, this is non-issue as miasma is non phb. here is the link to the thread regarding miasma. Scroll to near the bottom. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=253313&highlight=miasma
Thermanshs 08-02-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by amoeba I believe that 1hour/level buffs should be allowed but thats just my opinion. When do you ever not have 1hour/level buffs up in a high level campaign? Whats the point of having different durations then? Exactly...NO WIZARD travels without contingency pre-cast...and once it goes off the same day he casts another one... And please note core stuff only...if splatbooks enter the duel then things go wild...
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 03:55 PM	Originally posted by amoeba I believe that 1hour/level buffs should be allowed but thats just my opinion. When do you ever not have 1hour/level buffs up in a high level campaign? Whats the point of having different durations then? In any case, the wizard can always silence dispel magic. Besides, this is non-issue as miasma is non phb. here is the link to the thread regarding miasma. Scroll to near the bottom. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=253313&highlight=miasma yeah druids can take natural spell, still spell, slient spell so silence really wouldnt work.
Will Brandiman 08-02-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs Improved initiative is also modifed by a feat as you've pointed out, Correct. According to the PHB, Initiative is in fact a Dex check so if the wording of the spell says it can affect Dex checks then it will work. AC is ALSO a CHECK rather than a fixed number.The way it was suggested as a fixed number was for practical reasons (quicker combat) that's why you can roll for AC as a variant rule in the DMG. And attack is also not a pure check as it is modified by feats etc...still an ability check though very much as all checks (skills,SR,save,dmg....all receive modifiers Incorrect. Neither AC nor attack rolls are checks. Again, look in the PHB if you want clarification. It's all in the Glossary.
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by amoeba I believe that 1hour/level buffs should be allowed but thats just my opinion. When do you ever not have 1hour/level buffs up in a high level campaign? Whats the point of having different durations then? In any case, the wizard can always silence dispel magic. Besides, this is non-issue as miasma is non phb. here is the link to the thread regarding miasma. Scroll to near the bottom. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=253313&highlight=miasma yeah druids can take natural spell, still spell, slient spell so silence really wouldnt work.
amoeba 08-02-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by Kinitaro yeah druids can take natural spell, still spell, slient spell so silence really wouldnt work. uhm, I meant silenced dispel magic not the silence spell. silenced dispel magic on the miasma, specifically.
Kinitaro 08-02-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by amoeba uhm, I meant silenced dispel magic not the silence spell. silenced dispel magic on the miasma, specifically. ah ok
Blakk_Magemaster 08-02-04, 04:44 PM	Exactly...NO WIZARD travels without contingency pre-cast...and once it goes off the same day he casts another one... And please note core stuff only...if splatbooks enter the duel then things go wild... First off, saying every wizard travels with the spell contingency is an assumption. Second, even if they did, it doesn't mean that the contingency is going to be specifically for a druid encounter. A wizard doesn't wake up one day and say "Hmm, I'm going to unexpectically run into some druids, let me prepare..." I'm sorry it doestn't work that way. The only way to look at this accurately, is to look at the average wizard at 18th level and the average druid at 18th level, and match up their weaknesses and strengths against the other. And I guarentee that you'll find the druid comes out on top.
amoeba 08-02-04, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by Blakk_Magemaster First off, saying every wizard travels with the spell contingency is an assumption. Second, even if they did, it doesn't mean that the contingency is going to be specifically for a druid encounter. A wizard doesn't wake up one day and say "Hmm, I'm going to unexpectically run into some druids, let me prepare..." I'm sorry it doestn't work that way. The only way to look at this accurately, is to look at the average wizard at 18th level and the average druid at 18th level, and match up their weaknesses and strengths against the other. And I guarentee that you'll find the druid comes out on top. please provide some support as to why you think the druid will come out on top. I think everybody in this thread has attempted to match up and average wizard against an average druid. You are right that the contingency will not be specifically setup for a druid encounter. However, something like" contingency : polymorph, whenever I am targetted with a fortitude save spell" is general enough. I have yet to have anybody address the druid's mobility/planar travel/teleportation weaknesses. I really hope this thread is closed as both sides will stick to their guns. I still believe that in a one on one fight, there are two many weapons on the wizard's side that the druid has no answer for (read my first post on page 3 regarding maze, forcecage, irresistable dance, fogs). Whereas the druid's main strengths of wildshape, animal companion, are mostly negated by the wizard's mobility. The druid is very powerful when the party faces creatures with high SR and good saves, where the only solution is to beat it through pure melee damage. There are many situation in a typical campaign in which the druid is more powerful. However, in a 1on1 duel, the druid has problems against the wizard.
acvar 08-02-04, 05:17 PM	Man I knew that people on these boards were powergames for the most part but this takes the cake. Any DM that would allow you to cast a contigency spell triggered on any spell that requiers a fort save should be taken out back and promptly shot so that this sort of sillyness does not propogate.
Daoud 08-02-04, 05:34 PM	The wizards win: Continguicy, Prismatic Sphere, and Wish trump the many cool things available to high level druids
amoeba 08-02-04, 05:37 PM	Originally posted by acvar Man I knew that people on these boards were powergames for the most part but this takes the cake. Any DM that would allow you to cast a contigency spell triggered on any spell that requiers a fort save should be taken out back and promptly shot so that this sort of sillyness does not propogate. Thats true, that is a bit of metagaming. Typically when I allow this, I make the player make a spellcraft against the spell cast to see if they know what it is, then the contingency goes off if the spellcraft is correct. If you find that a bit too munchkin, then you can always go with the contingency mirror image : whenever a spell is targetted on me. Although this has problems with the order of what goes off first. A large part of the problem is the wording of contingency and how "smart" the contingency is. Anyways, I'll entertain the notion that the wizard does not have contingency. What would the druid's tactics be? and once again, are we stipulating that the 2 groups meet randomly in a forest somewhere and duke it out? are hour/level buffs allowed?
Blakk_Magemaster 08-02-04, 05:51 PM	This is what I was talking about. Going into tactics is what makes this an initiative and buff encounter. You have got to look at the average of each class and pin the abilities against each other. Cause, for every Wizard tactic you come up with, I can come up with one for the Druid that will counter.
amoeba 08-02-04, 06:09 PM	Originally posted by Blakk_Magemaster This is what I was talking about. Going into tactics is what makes this an initiative and buff encounter. You have got to look at the average of each class and pin the abilities against each other. Cause, for every Wizard tactic you come up with, I can come up with one for the Druid that will counter. I agree with you. but what do you mean by pin the abilities against each other? Wizards have no great abilities. they have crappy saves, crappy HP, and crappy BAB. However, they make it up with a great spell list. Thats the only thing that they got going for them. So yes, if the druid has an answer for the myriad of spells that the wizard can cast, then yes the druid wins. However, my point is that certain spells on the wizard's just can't be countered by the druid. Notice how I'm only saying the druid and not cleric. If this was a wizard vs cleric thread, then I would wholeheartedly give my vote to the cleric. Unfortunately the Druid's shapeshift + animal companion abilities do not make up for a slightly inferior spell list in the area of a 1 on 1 duel. How does the druid counter a maze or a irresistable dance or a forcecage+quickened dimensional anchor? There are no spells on the druid list which counters these things. Nor are there items in the DMG which counters these things. A wizard or cleric would have less problems as they have spell resistance, spell immunity, spell turning, mind blank, etc etc.....
Thermanshs 08-03-04, 11:19 AM	about the triggering condition of contingency: first off thanks for calling us powergamers when you come into a thread directly asking for our deadliest tactics and you've never asked for how we use to play. Triggering condition:once my life is in serious danger activate x spell. Is this general enough so as to be banished from your powergamer list?
Blakk_Magemaster 08-03-04, 11:31 AM	Originally posted by Thermanshs about the triggering condition of contingency: first off thanks for calling us powergamers when you come into a thread directly asking for our deadliest tactics and you've never asked for how we use to play. Triggering condition:once my life is in serious danger activate x spell. Is this general enough so as to be banished from your powergamer list? That's still powergaming.
amoeba 08-03-04, 11:38 AM	Lets just all drop the powergaming/defense of powergaming posts. Everybody in this thread powergames. From putting your highest roll in to your primary stat to choosing a correct spell list, everything has an aspect of optimization. There is nothing wrong with powergaming. The previous discussion regarding contingency triggering conditions however, related to metagaming (using out of game knowledge/concepts inside the game). Inside the game, there is no concept of a fort save, etc....
Thermanshs 08-03-04, 11:39 AM	Originally posted by Blakk_Magemaster That's still powergaming. Very much as when a character eats a banana
Thermanshs 08-03-04, 11:42 AM	Originally posted by amoeba Everybody in this thread powergames. From putting your highest roll in to your primary stat to choosing a correct spell list, everything has an aspect of optimization. That ain't called powergaming...a powergamer is one who powergames in a SERIOUS game....not one brought into an arena and told: show me what you got boy! Inside the game, there is no concept of a fort save, etc.... So MY later suggestion is clear and general enough so as NOT to be meta-thought and fit this purpose.
Cross Hatch 08-03-04, 11:53 AM	The real winner depends Why are these characters attacking each other? Was the Druid told to hunt down the Wizard and kill him? Was the Wizard told to do the same to the Druid? Did they just stumble across each other in the middle of a city and think, "hmm..he looks like a good target!" When you are dealing with spellcasters at this level, the winner is determined long before the encounter begins.
Senlus 10-28-04, 05:11 AM	Can we use Magic of Faerun? Then why not casting Black Blade of Disaster? If I score a 18, 19 or 20 I score a critical and you are DISINTEGRATED. No ts. Just a pile of dust. However it's a pity you can't take some nice magic items the druids may have.... I think there's nothing more powerful than 9°level-wizard spells in D&D. I'll put my money on wizards, but I agree with whom says that initiative is REALLY REALLY an important factor
beaver1024 10-28-04, 10:44 AM	How does the druid counter a maze or a irresistable dance or a forcecage+quickened dimensional anchor? There are no spells on the druid list which counters these things. Nor are there items in the DMG which counters these things. A wizard or cleric would have less problems as they have spell resistance, spell immunity, spell turning, mind blank, etc etc..... In order to use irrestiable dance, the wizard must close to touch range. With the druid's animal companion that is always a bad idea. The druid can dispel the dimensional anchor. However even while in the forcecage, the druid isn't helpless and can continue casting spells. The forcecage can be bypased by shapechanging into a blink dog and dimension dooring out of there. Wildshaping into a plant gives all of Mind Blank's benefit plus more defensive bonuses. It's basically initiative as to who would win remember druids have finger of death/baleful polymorph as save or die spells as well. However an unprepared druid has an edge over an unprepared wizard due to wildshape and animal companions. edit: Forgot to add. Qual's feather token: tree + tree stride will act the same as a multiple use dimension door. Qual's feather token: tree + transport via plants will also do the trick.
MaverickWolf 10-28-04, 10:56 AM	The wizard simply has many mobility and battlefield control spells while the druid has close to none. The only flying option for druids are either airwalk or wildshape in to a flying form, both are inferior to the fly spell. Wrong. I was gonna read the whole thread, but it's putting me to sleep, and that struck me as something to respond to. At 18th level, druids have access to Elemental Wildshapes. Air Elemental shape is VASTLY superior to a flying Wizard.
Nithendil 10-28-04, 02:28 PM	Ok, this is insane. If this is going to be even the slightest bit of a "logical duel" there needs to be some rules and limits. Comparing 18th level casters to each other is a feat in itself, much less without knowing who has what buffs on them. So here is what I suggest for our game of "what-ifs." 1. Everyone is at 14th level. It comes out to an initiative contest if you use anything higher than 7th level spells. That, and I have yet to even see a campaign with anyone over 14th level. This also assumes each person has gear appropriate for their level, and appropriate stats. 2. No buffs before-hand, including contingencies, wildshape, or summons. Magic fields are variable in this world, and magic tends to not stick around for too long before it is dispelled in an ever-moving null-zone. At the start of the battle, you can assume everything works normally, including any magic gear they have. 3. Core rules only. 4. They are both aware of each other, 130 feet away, traveling towards each other on a grassland road, and recognize each other as enemies. There is shrubbery, some trees and a lake with rock formations nearby, but the terrain is mostly grassland. 5. Each group can “memorize/prepare” spells to counter the other. It is well known that enemy casters travel on this road. 6. Here is the order: (I assumed equal mods for each, and rolled it with a dice server.) 1st: Wizard #3 2nd: Wizard #2 3rd: Druid #3 4th: Druid #2 5th: Druid #4 6th: Wizard#1 7th: Druid #1 8th: Wizard #4 Which group would win, the druids or wizards?
Varrik 10-28-04, 03:32 PM	6. Here is the order: (I assumed equal mods for each, and rolled it with a dice server.) 1st: Wizard #3 2nd: Wizard #2 3rd: Druid #3 4th: Druid #2 5th: Druid #4 6th: Wizard#1 7th: Druid #1 8th: Wizard #4 Which group would win, the druids or wizards? That's it! The wizards win. Especially if they are working together and not trying to outgun/outshow each other. Honesty, Wizards have so many tactical, mobility, battlefield control, offensive and defensive options that I think it'd be impossible for the druids to win. The only way the druids could win would be to gain initiative and right off the bat cast a spell with enough power that the wizards, even if they make thier saves, couldn't survive. (Assuming they haven't prepared immunties/resistances/and have suitable items ahead of time.) And we all know wizards load up bigtime on these types of items. Examples Wizard3 casts timestop and casts a force cage or two for his teammates and himself. They are now immune to anything short of disitegrate, which the druids don't have. Now wizards 1,2,3,4 can buff up at their leisure. And determine their strategy based on what the Druids come up with. or Wizard3 casts an enlarged solidfog on druids. Wizard casts enlarged cloudkill so that it overlaps the soldfog. Druid 2,3,4 need perform a move to get out of the cloud at which point they have one action to shapechange or summon something or attack. Wizard 1 now gets his turn. etc etc etc. or Wizard 3 casts a quickened resilient sphere and a regular resilient sphere on Druids 1 and 2, thus eliminating two opponents from the game. Wizard dimension doors him and a buddy to the other side of the druids, thus ensuring that no spell effect can catch all of them at once. or Wizard 3 casts a non-magical movement limiting spell such as a wall of stone or Iron so that it confines the Druids. Wizard 2 casts his enlarged anti-magic field transfering the spell (not sharing) to his bat familiar which now flies and hovers 10ft or so over the Druids heads. Druids, now unable to shapechange, get out bows and arrows, or maybe have an animal companion attack the familiar. Wizards, prepare, or attack, as they've previously stategized. or the Druids Shapechange, the Wizards shapechange (but the Wizards share their Shapechange with their familiars thus doubling their forms) and everybody attacks. blah blah blah The list goes on and on and on.... But usually, and especially with the initiative rolls above, I give it to the Wizards, hands down.
beaver1024 10-28-04, 07:11 PM	The proposed condition is all characters are 14th level so no timestops.
Nithendil 10-28-04, 07:31 PM	I've always seen the animal companion keeping the initiative of the druid, for simplicity. Do others usually rule differently? Well, due each companion possibly having different modifiers, well assume the companion has the same initiative as the druid.
The Simbul 10-28-04, 07:46 PM	Instead of spending five pages trying to argue who has what, what sourcebooks can and cant be used, and what spells as prepared, why dont you just use the official D&D mascots for the Wizard and Druid class Mialee and Vadania, who incidentally are given 18th level stats, cinluding equipment and spells prepared, available off the WoTC website, both of them were created at equal levels with equal ability score arrays, and who presumably have equal wealth in equipment.: Mialee: Female elf wizard 18; CR 18; Medium humanoid; HD 18d4+39; hp 84; Init +6; Spd 30 ft.; AC 30, touch 18, flat-footed 24; Base Atk +9; Grp +9; Atk +9 melee (1d6/18-20, rapier) or +16 ranged (1d8/x3, masterwork composite longbow); Full Atk +9/+4 melee (1d6/18-20, rapier) or +16/+11 ranged (1d8/x3, masterwork composite longbow); SQ elf traits, familiar benefits, spell resistance 18; AL N; SV Fort +12, Ref +16, Will +16; Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 30, Wis 13, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Appraise +13, Concentration +23, Knowledge (arcana) +31, Knowledge (nature) +13, Knowledge (the planes) +31, Listen +5, Search +22, Spellcraft +33, Spot +5; Alertness, Empower Spell, Greater Spell Penetration, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Toughnes. Elf Traits: Mialee is immune to sleep spells and effects, and gets a +2 racial bonus to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects. She has low-light vision and familiarity with the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite), and short bow (including composite). She gains a +2 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks, and when she passes within 5 feet of a secret door she can make a Search check as if she were looking for the door. Familiar Benefits: Mialee has a raven familiar. She gains the benefit of the Alertness feat whenever he is within 5 feet of her. She also gains the following benefits from her familiar. Empathic Link (Su): Mialee can communicate telepathically with her familiar at a distance of up to 1 mile. The master has the same connection to an item or a place that the familiar does. Scry on Familiar (Sp): Mialee may scry on the familiar as if casting the spell scrying once per day. Share Spells: Mialee may have any spell she casts on herself also affect her familiar if the latter is within 5 feet at the time of casting. She may also cast a spell with a target of "You" on her familiar. Touch: Mialee’s familiar can deliver touch spells for her. Wizard Spells Prepared (4/7/7/6/6/6/6/4/4/3; save DC 20 + spell level or 21 for enchantment, evocation, necromancy, or transmutation spells): 0 -- arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, read magic; 1st -- charm person, identify, mage armor, magic missile, magic weapon, protection from evil, sleep; 2nd -- bull's strength, cat's grace, darkvision, resist energy (2), scorching ray, see invisibility; 3rd -- dispel magic, fireball, greater magic weapon, haste, protection from energy, suggestion; 4th -- charm monster, greater invisibility, ice storm, polymorph, stoneskin (2); 5th -- baleful polymorph, cone of cold (2), hold monster, teleport, wall of force; 6th -- chain lightning, disintegrate, greater dispel magic (2), mass suggestion, true seeing; 7th -- ethereal jaunt, finger of death, insanity, prismatic spray; 8th -- horrid wilting (2), power word stun, prismatic wall; 9th -- power word kill, time stop, wail of the banshee. Spellbook: 0 -- acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, message, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue; 1st -- charm person, identify, mage armor, magic missile, magic weapon, protection from evil, sleep; 2nd -- bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, darkvision, daze monster, invisibility, knock, Melf's acid arrow, resist energy, scorching ray, see invisibility, web; 3rd -- clairaudience/clairvoyance, deep slumber, dispel magic, fireball, fly, greater magic weapon, haste, hold person, invisibility sphere, lightning bolt, protection from energy, suggestion; 4th -- charm monster, confusion, dimension door, greater invisibility, ice storm, Otiluke's resilient sphere, polymorph, scrying, stoneskin, wall of fire; 5th -- baleful polymorph, cone of cold, dominate person, hold monster, overland flight, telekinesis, teleport, wall of force; 6th -- chain lightning, disintegrate, flesh to stone, greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, shadow walk, true seeing; 7th -- delayed blast fireball, ethereal jaunt, finger of death, forcecage, greater teleport, insanity, limited wish, power word blind, prismatic spray; 8th -- greater shout, horrid wilting, mass charm monster, polymorph any object, power word stun, prismatic wall, protection from spells, screen; 9th -- dominate monster, energy drain, etherealness, imprisonment, mass hold monster, meteor swarm, power word kill, time stop, wail of the banshee, wish. Possessions: Robe of the archmagi, ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +2, +5 mithral buckler, rapier, masterwork composite longbow, 20 arrows, bracers of health +4, gloves of Dexterity +6, headband of intellect +6, bag of holding (type 1), flying carpet (5 ft. by 5 ft.), tome of clear thought +5, potion of cure serious wounds, scroll of time stop, wand of magic missiles (9th), backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, ink and pen, sack, sheets of parchment (5), spell component pouch, pearls for identify (2), stoneskin dust (6), mirror for scrying, ointment for true seeing (4), ruby dust for forcecage, spellbook, 3 sunrods, 1 day trail rations, waterskin. Mialee's Familiar: Male raven familiar; CR --; Tiny magical beast; HD 1/4 d8 (effective 18d8); hp 42; Init +2; Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average); AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 21; Base Atk +9; Grp -4; Atk +13 melee (1d2-5, claw); Full Atk +13 melee (1d2-5, claw); Space/Reach 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.; SQ improved evasion, low-light vision, speak Elven, speak with master, spell resistance 23; AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +13; Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 6. Skills and Feats: Bluff -1, Concentration +21, Escape Artist +3, Hide +10, Listen +6, Search +11, Sense Motive +3, Spot +6; Weapon Finesse. Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex save for half damage, Mialee's familiar takes no damage on a successful save and half damage on a failure. Speak with Master (Ex): Mialee's familiar can communicate with birds. Such communication is limited by the intelligence of the conversing creatures. Vadania: Female half-elf druid 18; CR 18; Medium humanoid; HD 18d8+54; hp 135; Init +2; Spd 20 ft.; AC 27, touch 12, flat-footed 25; Base Atk +13; Grp +15; Atk +20 melee (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar) or +20 ranged (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar); Full Atk +20/+15/+10 melee (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar) or +20/+15/+10 ranged (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar); SQ a thousand faces, animal companion (dire bear), elven blood, half-elf traits, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure, timeless body, trackless step, venom immunity, wild shape (Tiny to Huge animal or plant 7/day, Small to Large elemental 2/day), woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +23; Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 24, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Concentration +24, Diplomacy +1, Gather Information +1, Handle Animal +20, Knowledge (nature) +26, Listen +8, Ride +4, Search +2, Spellcraft +22, Spot +8, Survival +30; Combat Casting, Far Shot, Natural Spell, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll, Track, Weapon Focus (scimitar). A Thousand Faces (Ex): Vadania can change her appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell, but only while in her normal form. Animal Companion: Vadania has a dire bear as an animal companion. She gains the following benefits from her companion. Link (Ex): Vadania can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action. She gains a +4 bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding her companion. Share Spells (Ex): Vadania may have any spell she casts upon herself (but not any spell-like ability she uses) also affect her animal companion as long as the latter is within 5 feet of her at the time of casting. She may also cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. Vadania and her companion can share spells even if they normally do not affect creatures of the animal type. Half-Elf Traits: Vadania is immune to magic sleep spells and effects. She has a +2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects, a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks, and a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks (already figured into the statistics given above). Nature Sense (Ex): Vadania gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Nature) and Survival checks (already figured into the statistics above). Resist Nature’s Lure (Ex): Vadania receives a +4 bonus on saves against the spell-like abilities of fey creatures. Timeless Body (Ex): Vadania cannot be magically aged. She still dies when her time is up. Trackless Step (Ex): Vadania leaves no trail, and cannot be tracked, unless she chooses to. Venom Immunity (Ex): Vadania is immune to all poisons. Wild Shape (Su): Vadania can assume the form of any animal of Tiny to Huge size. She can also assume the form of plant creatures of the same size range. She can assume the form of a Small to Large elemental. She can assume animal and plant forms seven times per day, and elementals twice per day. Woodland Stride (Ex): Vadania can pass through undergrowth at full movement. Druid Spells Prepared (6/7/7/7/6/5/5/4/3/2; save DC 17 + spell level): 0 -- detect magic, detect poison, know direction, light, read magic, resistance; 1st -- endure elements, entangle, magic fang (2), obscuring mist, speak with animals (2); 2nd -- barkskin (2), bear's endurance, bull's strength, delay poison, heat metal, resist energy; 3rd -- call lightning (2), greater magic fang (2), poison, protection from energy (2); 4th -- dispel magic, flame strike (2), freedom of movement, ice storm, rusting grasp; 5th -- animal growth, commune with nature, tree stride, wall of fire (2); 6th -- fire seeds, greater dispel magic, liveoak, stone tell, transport via plants; 7th -- creeping doom, fire storm, true seeing, wind walk; 8th -- finger of death, sunburst, whirlwind; 9th -- elemental swarm, storm of vengeance. Possessions: +5 hide armor, +5 heavy wooden shield, ring of protection +4, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar, belt of giant strength +4, periapt of wisdom +6, cloak of resistance +5, boots of speed, ring of feather fall, bag of tricks (rust), bag of tricks (tan), druid’s vestment, vibrant purple ioun stone (stores 3 spell levels), pink ioun stone (+2 Con), pearl of power (1st), orb of storms, pearl of power (2nd), pearl of power (3rd), pearl of power (4th), pearl of power (5th), potion of invisibility, scroll of barkskin (caster level 6th), backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, holly and mistletoe, sack, 1 day’s trail rations, waterskin. Vadania's Companion: Male dire bear animal companion; CR --; Large animal; HD 16d8+67; hp 139; Init +2; Spd 40 ft.; AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 20; Base Atk +12; Grp +27; Atk +23 melee (2d4+11, claw); Full Atk +23 melee (2d4+11, 2 claws) and +18 melee (2d8+5, bite); Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft.; SA improved grab; SQ devotion, evasion, low-light vision, scent, tricks (attack, come, defend, guard, heel); AL N; SV Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +11; Str 33, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10. Skills and Feats: Hide -2, Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +16; Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (bite). Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Vadania's companion must hit with a claw attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Devotion (Ex): Vadania's companion receives a +4 morale bonus on saves against enchantment effects. Evasion (Ex): Against effects that allow a Reflex save for half damage, Vadania's companion takes full damage on a failed save and no damage on a successful save. Scent (Ex): Vadania’s companion can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. ************** You can find the other iconic D&D characters here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/dnd/rwiconics)