Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Varrik 03-13-06, 09:02 PM	Can 4 or 5 Wizards survive as an adventuring group? I ask this, because I've seen a lot of character party optimization questions, and I've always thought, clever use of any combination of classes, should be able to triumph. Not easily, mind you. They would need to play to their strengths and reduce their weaknesses. Has anyone ever played in a magic heavy group and thrived? Any stories of how you managed to be effective or tales where this combo worked really well for you?
robinscw 03-13-06, 09:19 PM	Why not? 1. Evoker-Blast away, lots of enlarge and widen spell 2. Enchanter-Dominate Person and Dominate Monster for short-term thieves, tanks, healers 3. Conjurer-Summon Monster, Summon Undead, Summon Elemental Swarm, etc. 4. Abjurer-Dispel Magic, Wall of Stone, Prismatic Wall, Resist Energy, Banishment 5. Transmuter-Stoneskin, Fly, Tenser's Transformation You're gonna spend lots of cash on healing, but you could make the party work if you were really committed to it.
bholdr_mage 03-13-06, 09:22 PM	4 wizards? Sure. Just make sure they all "specialize" (Not actually in a certain school mind you, but as in "taking different spells than the others") in other spells. A conjurer is great for the "beef." He can summon critters and send them into combat while he uses a wand or other spells on different opponents. An abjurer/transmuter is great for buffing up the party, or for doing a high AC build. A wizard with an 18 dex, shield, mage armor, cat's grace, expeditious retreat and the dodge, mobility, spring attack feats, make for a great taunter. An evoker can supply the firepower, nuff said. And an illusionist/enchanter can do what the others can't. Whether these are specialist wizards or not, it doesn't matter. But they do need to have access to many of the spells from the above listed schools. Diviners are also overlooked and can be pricey but quite expensive. Necromancers can be fun in evil campaigns, but even with all the splat books, the other schools (aside from universal) totally outnumber this school in number of spells. By the way WotC! Heads up! Lets see MORE spells from the necromancy school. Look at the comparison between necromancy and evocation or transmutation in the PHB ALONE! Necromancy has like 3-4 1st level spells, while the other two have like 20...at EVERY level! What happened to skull trap from baulder's gate? Where's the damage spells? This isn't Magic: the gathering! Evocation is not "red." It shouldn't get "all" the damage spells. Necromancy is not "black." It should get all the "loose life/power/yadda for some other benefit" ability spells, but that shouldn't be all it gets. Conjuration is not "green." Yes it does deal damage but only through their critters cast. Abjuration is not "white." Give it a damage spell like Sue Storms blast ability. :rant: :banghead: Ok, I'm off my soap box. Thanks.
Milo HoBo 03-13-06, 09:22 PM	An easier group would be 4 or 5 clerics, and this would still be magic heavy. They would fail to have the more roguish, skill-monkey aspect, but are more than effective.
robinscw 03-13-06, 09:23 PM	For a magic heavy group that's not all-Wizard.... 1. Healer 2. Archivist 3. Artificer 4. Binder 5. Totemist This gives you two semi-tanks, an artificer for wondrous items like lockpick rings, a Healer, and an Archivist capable of learning nearly any spell in the game. It wouldn't stand up at the character op boards but my gaming group is having fun with it.
Suzaku455 03-13-06, 09:34 PM	What about 5 druids?
Morotis 03-13-06, 09:37 PM	why use 4 wizards? Try 4 Sorcerers! Each choosing spells to accent each personal ability and effectivly slaughter everything within casting range. Having each wizard (or sorcerer) multiclass to a class that better suits their specialized type. The transmuter takes fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger etc... The Envoker well... umm.... ah.... becomes a.... ________ The Enchanter can be a cleric or druid The Conjurer would be a rogue, nothing sweeter then rapid summoning a dire bear next to the enimies during the surprize round! The Illusionist would go bard...
Chrono Nexus 03-13-06, 11:19 PM	My current group is composed of 3 arcanists. One wizard and two sorcerers- our total combined equipment value is something like that of one fourth level character. Our average party level is four. We are constantly being challenged by enemies many CR's above our own, with less than advantageous conditions. Nearly every fight is a near to-the-death battle. The DM is merciless, and as far as I can tell has never fudged a roll. If we three did not intrinsically know our character and the rules of DnD, and if even one of us did not have a talent for stratedgy, we would have all been dead long ago... The difficulty of playing a group made entirely of arcanists at low levels is like... Ninja Gaiden's hardest setting, or Co-op on Halo2 using the legendary setting (and no energy shields). We each can only cast from two arcane schools (of course I chose Chronomancy and Transmutation). The others chose Evocation/Necromancy and Conjuration/Illusion. To read more about the arcanist campaign, go to www.dndcreations.schtuff.com (http://www.dndcreations.schtuff.com)
robinscw 03-13-06, 11:23 PM	Chronomancy? Is that house rules?
Chrono Nexus 03-13-06, 11:27 PM	No, Chronomancy is a supplement that adds time-related spells and magic to the game. It also pools/pulls spells from other schools (esp. trans. and div.). Some may claim it is unnessecary, but that does not mean it is bad for play. The Net Book of Time has some valuable additions to the school (many are broken or underpowered), but mostly I am making it myself.
GreyGriffin 03-14-06, 12:26 PM	No, Chronomancy is a supplement that adds time-related spells and magic to the game. It also pools/pulls spells from other schools (esp. trans. and div.). Some may claim it is unnessecary, but that does not mean it is bad for play. The Net Book of Time has some valuable additions to the school (many are broken or underpowered), but mostly I am making it myself. Sooo... it's house rules.
ninjarabbit 03-14-06, 12:34 PM	It could work, one would be a gish or hexblade, one would be an arcane trickster, one would be a mystic theurge, and the other could be a dread necromancer or warmage.
Esponer 03-14-06, 12:59 PM	For a magic heavy group that's not all-Wizard.... 1. Healer 2. Archivist 3. Artificer 4. Binder 5. Totemist This gives you two semi-tanks, an artificer for wondrous items like lockpick rings, a Healer, and an Archivist capable of learning nearly any spell in the game. It wouldn't stand up at the character op boards but my gaming group is having fun with it. Interesting concept. I don't know about some of the classes, but I do know that the healer tends to be on the weak side. For a feel that kept away from divine (the archivist, in my opinion, feels more arcane), I would replace the healer with a shugenja. They're more interesting and are quite powerful, especially relative to the healer. As for all wizards, it's much easier starting at higher levels. One of them would want to try to focus on polymorphing himself into a machine. Clerics do it better, despite not normally knowing polymorph, but wizards can still do well at higher levels. It also depends on how many levels in a spellcasting class you need to define yourself as a wizard, i.e., if a classic gish (wizard/spellsword/eldritch knight) is permissible.
Keenath 03-14-06, 01:51 PM	The biggest weaknesses of an all-wizard group would probably be the surprise round and the skirmisher. If they don't have warning, the enemy can get surprise, and at that point you have badguys standing next to you while you try to cast. Sure, sure, five foot step, cast defensively, but as a caster, you want that standoff range. Moreover, it takes a lot of time to summon a creature for tank-duty, and that could be a big issue, since you need to survive that long on your cruddy little d4. Skirmishers are an issue when they start evading your tank and hitting you in the head. Sure, that's a problem even when you have fighters and barbarians around, but since you'll lack even second-line fighters, there's not really anybody to slow down or hold off the skirmishers while your magic gets into place.
TrajanCavalous 03-14-06, 04:11 PM	With the right builds it is very possible. At least 1 of the wizards should have high Wisdom and take the feat from Complete Divine that gives an arcane caster access to the spells in a domain, you choose the healing domain and then take the feat in the same book that allows you to spontaneously cast cures. This is very useful!! At least 1 should have high Con and Improved Toughness and be able to stand toe to toe with bad guys. Relying on summoned critters for this is not enough. A dwarf is a great choice for this. Heck, dwarf is a great choice for all kinds of wizards.
Wolf72 03-14-06, 05:50 PM	sure they can ... you might want to investigate hiring some NPC bodyguards (warrior npc class, or spend more for a pc class)
robinscw 03-14-06, 06:34 PM	I know...I'm a sucker for a healer with a Coatl companion...It's my Buddhist nonviolence character. I'm still trying to understand how shugenja are useful..I actually have a thread devoted to it on here
Earthcrosser599 03-14-06, 07:01 PM	4 or 5 wizards each casting Magic Missile would own. Maybe have a fighter or barbarian to sit there and block for a few rounds.
Tony Vargas 03-14-06, 07:11 PM	Can 4 or 5 Wizards survive as an adventuring group? It'd be really tough. Conventional wisdom says /especially/ at low levels. The problem is, of course, that they all have the same strengths. With careful coordination of spells learned, they could have quite a variety of spells on tap at the begining of each day, though. There are a lot of ways you could take up the slack, though. For instance, 4 or 5 Wizards would have a very tough time, but a Spellsword (or Eldritch Knight(, Guild Mage (or Loremaster or Archamage), Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge, while all having Wizard levels, could handle standard challenges more consistently, while having something of the same flavor. Obviously, cohorts, planar allies, constructs, and the like could take up some of the slack of non-wizard classes at higher levels, too. Has anyone ever played in a magic heavy group and thrived?I've run for magic-heavy groups in earlier editions (ironically, because I wanted a 'low magic' game, and gave out very few items - it made casting that much more important, by contrast), and it certainly worked just dandy back then. 3E makes having non-casters like rogues and frontliners a bit more important, though. You can get around the lack of any character type with the right spell - but it's hard always have the /right/ right spell on tap at the right time.
Votan 03-14-06, 07:27 PM	Interestingly, the best idea that I have for a campaign at the moment would start with 4 or 5 high elf wizards. I think I'd be able to work in some really nifty themes with such a party -- especially if we started at first level. The only thing that is concerning is that I'd be worried that everybody would start multi-classing at level 2 to create a diversity of abilities. If I ever get a chance to try it, I'll report back . . .
robinscw 03-14-06, 09:36 PM	4 or 5 wizards casting magic missile would be useless compared to the damage potential of 4 wizards casting fireball, cone of cold, meteor shower, etc. Magic Missile, while always wonderful, doesn't have high enough numeric effects to matter at higher levels. As for a party...I still say even with 4 wizards it's totally doable...unless your dm hates you and consistently tries to prove that it won't work. Kinda like when the dm knows you specialize in fire so only selects creatures that are fire immune or when your fighter gets ghost touch weapons so the DM stops using incorporeal creatures. It's always up to the DM to be good, and create a game that challenges and compliments your character builds....or to be evil and prove that there's a creature combination out there capable of ruining everyone's day.
Earthcrosser599 03-15-06, 02:48 AM	4 or 5 wizards casting magic missile would be useless compared to the damage potential of 4 wizards casting fireball, cone of cold, meteor shower, etc. Magic Missile, while always wonderful, doesn't have high enough numeric effects to matter at higher levels. Especially since wizards of any level can cast Cone of Cold and Meteor Swarm. Thank you for showing me my error.
SwiftFox 03-15-06, 05:15 AM	4x warforged artificers... can handle anything. And by handle, I mean blow up :D
robinscw 03-15-06, 10:09 AM	Earthcrosser.....your sarcasm is unneccessary, there's no need for that kind of flame on these boards...I was simply pointing out that in a party of wizards there are far better options than the standard magic missile. If you're actually playing with 4 wizards at level 1, the 15-20 magic missiles you have per day are hardly impressive as you have a max damage output of 100...even if it is unblockable.
robinscw 03-15-06, 10:11 AM	Wow swiftfox....vicious idea...I think I'll play it out this weekend...thanks for the plot of my players one session adventure
Votan 03-15-06, 10:21 AM	Earthcrosser.....your sarcasm is unneccessary, there's no need for that kind of flame on these boards...I was simply pointing out that in a party of wizards there are far better options than the standard magic missile. If you're actually playing with 4 wizards at level 1, the 15-20 magic missiles you have per day are hardly impressive as you have a max damage output of 100...even if it is unblockable. Most of the interest in such a game is levels 1 to 5. By levels 12+ (assuming even a modest availabiltiy of options -- say the Complete Series) a part yof 4 wizards will be deadly. Somebody will pick up Arcane Disciple for healing. Likely you will see another one as a Daggerspell mage of some kind. The third could end up as a gish by aking classes like Eldritch Knight, Spellsowrd and Dragonslayer (or doing it the hard way with Sacred Exorcist to just build up hit points). Even without this diversity, the sheer number of prepared arcane spells will make many challenges easy and only a few annoying ones likely to even slow the party.
Varrik 03-15-06, 10:31 AM	Great replies, thanks everyone. The concensus seems to be that yes, it can work, but with difficulty. Although it gets noticably easier at higher levels. It's a fascinating idea, really. Especially if you can get your team to coordinate tactics and focus. Are there any feats/abilities that work well in a team setting? i.e. the metaconcert for Psions? Perhaps one could set-up their own Mage of the Arcane Order guild or something. IIRC, Red Wizards have some type of group power-up don't they? (But I also remember thinking that it sucks.) >> Silkfox - OMG, 4x warforged artificers sounds devastating.
NotBruce 03-15-06, 11:25 AM	Well this was a plan that I had for a game that started but never played. (back in 3.0) The players Psion-constructor Wiz-(blast/utility) Sor-(new guy to casting,/summoner) There was(is?) a feat that allows astral constructs to last 1 min per lvl instead of 1 round per lvl. The general plan for taking down a dungeon was to stay at a mage type tower. Teleport to where we want to attack summon an army and send them in and then go home, and drink coco. The next day do it again.
SwiftFox 03-15-06, 12:03 PM	Yeah, 4x warforged artificers is pretty nice, especially when theyre all duel-wielding wands for extra metamagic-stacking mayhem... sure, it burns through the charges quick, but the amount of reliable damage they can dish out from even low levels is impressive. I was in a campaign with just ONE of these guys; he wore a bandolier of 50 wands and would dish out 200+ dmg a round when the situation called for it. He was only 7th level :eek:
robinscw 03-15-06, 12:36 PM	Cooperative Spell would be the feat that's supposed to make casting in groups fun...check out Player's Guide to Faerun...I don't remember it working that well though
Armoracia Rusticana 03-15-06, 02:34 PM	Personally I am quite fond of Favored Souls. They can make nice group, too.