Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XrP-Leon 04-01-05, 08:31 PM	Which, in your oppinion, is better? Why so?
XrP-Leon 04-01-05, 08:54 PM	That was kinda... worded poorly. We are about to run a 5th level campaign. We have a War Mage, Cleric, Barbarian, and Me (As an archery based fighter, or a ranger with the archery weapon style). I'be never played as an archery based character. So, in your oppinion, which would be better; fighter or ranger? Right now and later, what are the perks of each in comparison to each other?
Tony Vargas 04-01-05, 09:03 PM	(Edit: OK, you changed the question on me, a little). Y'know, we were just discussing this. ;) It depends on what else you want to do besides archery, and what kind of archery you're intent on - what sort of tactics you envision the character using. As a Ranger, you'd be alble to have good stealth and alertness skills, which'd be desireable if you're planning on setting ambushes, scouting ahead of the party and so forth. Rangers have a lot of other nifty things going for them - minor spells, an animal companion, tracking and survival and so forth. If any of those are apealing, quite apart from archery ability, the Ranger would be a fine choice. Also, if you can predict with some confidence what sorts of foes you'll be facing over the course of the campiagn, the ranger's FEB can be pure gold. As a fighter, you'd have few skills, but more hps. Instead of FEB to boost your archery damage, you'd use Weapon Specialization - a bonus that aplies to anything you shoot, not just specific targets. That's a plus. You'd also be able to pick up more archery feats, and pick most of them up earlier. That's worth it if you want a lot of feats - if you're going to be pulling feat-intensive tricks like Shot on the Run, or if you want to start with a vital feat like Precise Shot, or if you don't want all three of the ranger archery feats, or even if you just want a few non-archery feats at some point, and more control over which ones you get when. In the sense of pure mundane ability with the bow, the fighter can be the superior archer, and will be a generally tougher and more capable combatant outside of archery, as well. In terms of peripheral abilities (like being able to hide from people until you shoot them, or spot them before they spring thier ambush on you) the ranger is much more capable, making him, of course, the superior, well ranger. At 5th level, as a Ranger, you can have up to three archery feats, one of which is Rapid Shot. Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot would be good choices. As a 5th level fighter, you could have up to 5 archery feats, and they can be any you meet the prerequisites for. You can take Weapon Focus & Specialization and Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot to increase attack and damage modifiers (and avoid penalties). You could concentrate on Full Attacking by taking Rapid Shot, or you could take Shot on the Run and do 'snapshots' from behind cover. You could take PBS & Rapid Shot to full attack at range, but also take Quickdraw and TWF to instantly switch to melee full attacks once the enemy closes (making you a less 'dedicated' archer). In either case, 6th level brings you two more feats. In the case of the ranger, one is Multishot. The composition of your party doesn't do too much to make the decision for you. The barbarian can obviously handle the close-in stuff, and the Cleric may well be able to help, but, at the same time, the barb may have listen, survival and even track. So, in either case, there may be some redundancy. You don't have a Rogue, so the Ranger's scouting ability might be a plus, if the party puts up with that function at all (some groups don't like lone scouts eating up play time), but, whatever you do, the lack of trap-finding could hurt (you'll have to just put the barbarian in the lead and let him count on his 'trap sense' - and the Cleric's healing). ... Anyway, playing a 3.5 archer can be a little frustrating. It's very easy for cover penalties to come up, in 3.5, and -4 for soft cover is significant. Since bows don't do huge damage in one hit, so you want to full attack a lot, but that limits you to 5' steps - while your high-DEX means you can wear light armor and have a good move. :rolleyes: And, of course, firing into melee is also -4. Precise Shot and, later, Improved Precise Shot will make your life a lot easier, by negating penalties. Good luck.
XrP-Leon 04-01-05, 10:14 PM	Thanks. That's really the kind of responce I was looking for. I think, for now, I will go with the fighter, I like it's flexability, and ability to be ranged and melee with effectivness. Thanks a lot for the reply. Well, I guess it's time to make my character as I read through Xizat-DM's fighter refix thread :P Thanks again.
Jell_Moo 04-01-05, 10:20 PM	You definitely want to be a Ranger in this case. Your party lacks a true skillmonkey, so the Ranger is a much better option. Things like Spot, Listen, Survival, Hide and Move Silently work very well for an archer. A high Reflex save and eventually Evasion makes you better equipped to deal with area effect/direct damage spells. The trick for a good archer is that you need to have Precise Shot ASAP. Without it, you won't be hitting. If I were you, I'd go: Human Rogue 1/Ranger 4 This gives you the all important Trapfinding, and you can take maxiumum ranks in things like Disable Device. The Fighter is way too limited in this role. He can use a bow well enough, but he really lacks the out of combat ability. You'll get much more mileage out of a pure Ranger or a Rogue/Ranger.
thinkhard 04-01-05, 10:49 PM	yeah. You definately need a skill monkey. The barbarian will take over the role of meatbag/damage dealer for you.
CzarGarrett 04-02-05, 11:02 AM	I'd suggest the Ranger. Now whether or not you'll go pure ranger is more of a style decision for yourself.
XrP-Leon 04-02-05, 03:13 PM	But.. also, if you're trying to compare a ranger to a fighter, it can't come close. In ranged and/or TWF, a fighter just dishes out more damage, and can take more. Even if it's ranged oriented. On the flip, comparing a fighter to a ranger, the fighter can't do anything for skills. So... My group seems to be more combat oriented, with roleplaying. So, I don't really need the skills, I need the combat ability. Even though a fighter doesn't have skills, it's still a person, so youhave plenty of RP aspects... So, I think, for this campaign, I will go with the fighter.
fractal 04-03-05, 01:42 AM	But.. also, if you're trying to compare a ranger to a fighter, it can't come close. In ranged and/or TWF, a fighter just dishes out more damage, and can take more. Even if it's ranged oriented. On the flip, comparing a fighter to a ranger, the fighter can't do anything for skills. So... My group seems to be more combat oriented, with roleplaying. So, I don't really need the skills, I need the combat ability. Even though a fighter doesn't have skills, it's still a person, so youhave plenty of RP aspects... So, I think, for this campaign, I will go with the fighter. The Fighter doesn't deal much more damage with comparable stats. If you're a Human Fighter at level 5, you might have Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Far Shot. With, say, 16 Dex and 14 Str, and a +1 Composite Longbow +2 Str, that's: +10 Attack (+11 within 30'), and 1d8+5 Damage (+1 more within 30'). If you're a Human Ranger at level 5, you might have PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Far Shot. With the same stats and item, that's: +9 Attack (+10 within 30'), and 1d8+3 Damage (+1 more within 30', +2 or +4 more vs Favored Enemies). Plus you get skills, spells, and miscellaneous class features. I'd say that if you're able to make any sort of educated guess as to a good Favored Enemy, the Ranger will be equal or better at just about everything.
Trance Kuja 04-03-05, 03:05 AM	You could get alot more outta the guy multiclassing inbetween ftr and rngr till you can reach a good archer prc. I just made a 4th lvl archer for an upcoming campaign and he has 2 lvl ftr and 2 lvls ranger. if you human that gives you 3 any choice feats, 2 ftr feats, track, and rapid shot from the ranger, since 3rd lvl ftr won't give anything special take another lvl of ranger for free endurance and a bump to skill points and your only losing an average of 1 hit point from taking a d8 instead of a d10. Order of the bow initiate would be a good choice for a prc to boost your damage unless your fighting tons of undead, constructs, and other things immune to precision damage. My guy got EWP(elven double bow) from the A & E guide since my DM ruled that rapid shot would work for it since it takes a move action to reload. now i can reload it like a normal bow. it gives me two 1d8 arrows fired with a single attack role at a -2 penalty and with rapid shot i can get off 4 arrows with two attack rolls at a -4 penalty but with the extra feats from ftr u can easily afford to get weapon focus to alleviate some of the negatives. my guy can make both of his "double shots" at a +6 bonus because of my dex, weapon focus, and +1 double bow so you have a pretty good chance to hit with your one man archery squad.
Lina_Inverse 04-03-05, 03:25 AM	neither.both suck. your level 5,fighters become worthless in 2-3 levels. rangers are always worthless. be a druid,or if you need a skill monkey wizard.
Roxlimn 04-03-05, 09:18 AM	I second fractal's assessment. If you can predict favored enemies with any degree of reliability and you're looking for at least Rapid Shot in your build, Ranger 5 equals or betters anything you can get with Fighter 5. Even better, if you pick Human, Half Elf, or Dwarf, you can later dip into Fighter 2 for a fast injection of 2 bonus feats, if you feel like you need it. Even if you don't value skill encounters, Ranger is the better choice for this group. Every encounter in the wild is initiated by a Spot check, and none of your comrades are reasonably proficient in that. Avoid the ambushes and take the Ranger. Even for dungeon encounters, Spot or Listen often means the difference between a reasonable fight and a difficult ambush. If your DM isn't big on Survival checks and Track, ignore the Ranger's Track feat (because your DM will be). Don't take Survival, take some other more useful skill. In fact, if you find you have too many SP to benefit from, dump Int for more of any stat you feel like choosing. Highly suggest Ranger 5 Archer over Fighter 5 ARcher for practically any campaign in which FEB will come into play. PS: Even if you feel like melee feats are important, if you feel like Rapid Shot and Manyshot are strong feats and must-haves for your character concept, still take Ranger. You can still take melee feats with your normal slots and allow Rapid Shot and Manyshot alone to take care of the Archery things. While it's true you won't be able to shoot worth anything in melee, with the melee feats, you're pretty much assuming you'll mix it up anyway when you can't use your bow.
Sakaki22 04-03-05, 11:26 AM	Hey, I'm playing an archery-based character for the first time as well. My first (and only) piece of advice is to take a guess as to how many arrows you'll need, and buy multiples of that amount. Yeah, for this adventure, I definately packed 60 arrows. One day of low combat, and I'm down to 32. That ain't gonna work.
Roxlimn 04-03-05, 12:15 PM	If you're an Archer character and your DM tracks ammunition (as I do), then be glad and disturbed. Glad because you can actually list down all those weird material arrows on your sheet and it'll be totally fair when you say you have them on you when they're called for. Distutrbed because ammunition will always be a concern until you can get a Quiver of Ehlonna, which finally makes ammunition keeping more of a book keeping chore that a dire threat. Let's crunch some numbers shall we? Let's assume you fire 2 arrows per round for 5 rounds for every encounter 4times a day. Full attacks all the time may not be fair, but 5 rounds is really not the longest you'll be fighting, and there are times you will face more than 4 fights per day, so the estimate is OK enough. Going by the estimate, you will need 2 quiverfuls of 20 arrows each per day, on the average, possibly more. If you foresee going for a week without seeing civilization, you'll need 14 quiverfuls of 20 arrows each (probably necessitating a mount to carry them), or a slightly smaller number and the Bowyer skill and time and material to craft arrows. This is a conservaive estimate. Sometimes, you will run out of arrows for various reasons. So please, even if you're an Archer, pack a Greatsword!
StormCrow42 04-03-05, 02:07 PM	If you're keeping track of amunition, also remember that you can recover 50% of your misses. This is especially useful for exotic ammunition.
Chosen of Bane 04-03-05, 02:21 PM	Best build, go Ranger 6/ Fighter 4 and then a 10 level PrC (Order of the Bow Initiate?). That gives you 3 fighter bonus feats, the first two ranger combat style feats, two favored enemies, and access to weapon specialization. So, at 5th level I would probably go with Ranger 3/ Fighter 2. This also takes care of some of the skill deficiency fighters have.
stamhaven 04-03-05, 03:41 PM	If non core base classes are allowed, mixing in scout from CV (or going all scout) can be fun and get some of the prestige archer flavor earlier on with skirmish damage. Scout style makes for better ammunition efficiency encouraging single shots that hit harder over gatling gun style archery. Also extra speed can keep you at range skirmish can help with melee if you need it too in certain cases. I'd steer clear of OotBI as written (mostly because it has requirements that don't mesh well with its class features as well as dicey interaction other archery feats that seemed meant to augment non full attack style (manyshot and shot on the run). To me its a great idea for a class just needs a better integration to 3.5 rules. Possibly loose rapid shot and add zen archery as a req (leave out the stacking from 3.0), then change sharpshooting to Improved Precise Shot (sharpshooting should have been eliminated when IPS was introduced in 3.5 IMO), and lastly allow Shot on the Run and Manyshot to work with ranged precision-just to the lead arrow on manyshot like any precision damage (maye add banked shot again just because it was cool to shoot off walls). I know that's all a decent power hike to the order of the bow, but makes it better integrated with both the theme and existing material.
XrP-Leon 04-03-05, 11:13 PM	Oh, cool. I actually started a worthwhile thread. Thanks for the ideas, I'll run the scout and OotBI past my DM.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 04-04-05, 02:15 AM	But.. also, if you're trying to compare a ranger to a fighter, it can't come close. In ranged and/or TWF, a fighter just dishes out more damage, and can take more. Even if it's ranged oriented. On the flip, comparing a fighter to a ranger, the fighter can't do anything for skills. So... My group seems to be more combat oriented, with roleplaying. So, I don't really need the skills, I need the combat ability. Even though a fighter doesn't have skills, it's still a person, so youhave plenty of RP aspects... So, I think, for this campaign, I will go with the fighter. Especially with the Complete Warrior, I cannot disagree more. Improved Precise Shot (make the extra attack without the -2 penalty on all attacks) and Improved Favored Enemy (add +3 damage to your favored enemies) are great feats. I would have a high strength Ranger, regardless. Feats like Power Attack and Favored Power Attack come in handy for the ranger as well. I helped a new player do their Ranger build. Two Handed Sword, Composite Longbow with Strength bonus. Started with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. 2nd level gets Rapid Shot, 3rd takes Power Attack, 6th level Many Shot and Craft Arms and Armor, 9th level take Improved Rapid Shot, 11th Improved Precise Shot, 12, 15, and 18 your choice of Favored Power Attack (with a two handed weapon, deal out 3 points of damage for every 1 point penalty you subtract from your to hit roll), Improved Inititive and Improved Critical your weapon (usually the two handed sword since the Power Attack, Favored Power Attack and Improved Critical will deal out massive amounts of damage, even with one hit. Criticals will mutiply the damage. But you could get away with a Scabbard of Sharpness since you won't be using your sword that often). Spot and Listen are uber important for your rear line character. He is less likely to be flat-footed, should have a descent Inititive Modifier, and will be able to before a Full Round Attack option during every combat. He won't need the best armor, but will need the best weapons (which you could take Craft Arms and Armor at 6th level, weapons and armor at half the cost is very handy). This will make you versitile and damage heavy. Even with a 14 strength, you can boost with magic items to 20 at higher levels, but I would focus on ending in a even damage bonus for the extra 50% damage using a two handed weapon (you won't be using a shield either way). A Composite Longbow with 14 str will do 1d8 + 2 str + 1 Point Blank Shot. Get a hold of Bane arrows (I believe the cost is 166 gp 4 cp per +1 Bane arrow that will be a +3 arrow +2d6 dmg versus your Bane Target). I also recommend Holy based upon the campaign setting. Most evil creatures like to fight regardless. You can even take undead as a Favored enemy with Favored Power Attack since you can still add the extra damage (plus most undead have a low AC) The Fighter is your tank. He has High AC from Heavy Armor. He will be flat footed most of the time from surprise. You Ranger is your Surprise archery machine gun. The Fighter can reproduce the damage, but can't negate the surprise. This advantage plus all the others (Evasion, descent Will save will 14 Wisdom, spells, extra skills, Endurance and Hide in Plain Sight) means your Ranger can do more than just shoot a bow. He can scout, he can surprise others, he can have a good chance of getting a Full round attack with his bow every combat round. If you are really concerned over the number of feats, take two levels of Fighter. You get to keep Hide in Plain sight, lose a 5th favored Enemy (basicly two +2 bonuses) in exchange for 2 feats. You could lose 4 levels of Ranger (losing Hide in Plain Sight) to gain the Weapon Specialization. I don;t think it is worth it, but that is your choice.
Eaglos 04-04-05, 03:24 AM	The eternal question that will haunt us forever. Choosing either of the two depends on your style of play. One is a guy in heavy armour that can also fire a bow and two is a guy in light armour that can also wield a sword. The thing is that a fighter can be a "ranger" but not the other way round. You see, the ranger does not have exclusive archery-related feat. So, anyone can pick the those feats and become a ranger. Favoured enemy totally depends on the DM's discretion and could be useless. Divine spells, well yeah a ranger can cast some of them but you would be better off if your cleric did that part. Most of the times when the party's ranger chooses to cast instead of aim death is a few rounds away. So, take a human fighter, equip him with a composite longbow, give nifty archery feats and you would ok. If you want a skill monkey that would be able to do some damage multiclass between a rogue and a fighter.