Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Destindbomb 03-20-08, 06:57 PM	There is always mention of that one specific 5th-man class (bard) that one could use to round out it's party's abilities. With the many, many books to come out since then, I was wondering, what other classes could be considered support. I really only know of three off the top of my head: Bard Dragon Shaman Marshall I would like a list of classes that most people believe is a good 5th-man class. I saw that somebody posted somewhere on the forums about a group of all support style characters, and I'm going to suggest a game like that. It'll probably be something like a political of espionage game. Anyway, I was just gonna ask others to throw in a class that would be considered in this list. Many thanks in advance!
teshen 03-20-08, 07:06 PM	Factorum, from Dungeonscape Society Mind. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=506284) Also the Sublime way marshal (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=752414) is better... actually anything with the right white raven stuff could perform well in a support role.
runestar 03-20-08, 07:09 PM	The ghaele eladrin progression from SS can make for a very potent support class, given its ability to use cure light wounds and aid at will at 8th lv.
Jaxgaret 03-20-08, 07:28 PM	Binder, Hexblade, Truenamer, Warlock all come to mind as 5th-wheel type of classes that don't readily fall into one of the 4 iconic party slots, although the Binder's flexibility allows it to take on almost any role.
Staple 03-21-08, 01:27 AM	Good 5th Men: Warlock (Complete Arcane): Essentially a sorceror, only moreso. Trades individual round-by-round power for endurance, essentially making it fail as a blaster. Instead, Warlock can be used as a decent interference class--using UMD checks for scrolls and wands, or taking the Dispel Magic invocations and just countering an enemy spellcaster out of the fight. Swordsage (Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords): A competent fighter, but much better when it has someone to flank with. Would count as a rogue, but lacks Trapfinding. Bard: Buffing and healing, but without much offensive potential. Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Aracana): Everyone talks about the Divine MetaMagic Cleric with Divine Power and Righteous Might who makes the Barbarian feel inadequate. And that's all well and good, but that's not the only cleric that exists. The Cloistered cleric works just fine as a buffer/healer/summoner, and has Bardic Knowledge on top of that. Archivist (Heroes of Horror): A combination Cleric/Wizard that can grant bonuses to his allies as a free action, though he lacks serious offensive capability. Hexblade (Complete Warrior): A little fragile for a front-line fighter (light armor, no shields), but without the casting power of a true spellcaster, Hexblade really shines when he takes the substitution from Player's Handbook 2, letting him depress saves by 2 without risk of being bypassed. He can throw down a curse on top of that, and be an Illusionist's best friend. I think that does it for the ones that either haven't been mention or need a little explanation of how they fit the 5th man roll.
The_Shaman 03-21-08, 02:58 AM	Some 5th wheel ideas apart from the bard - Dragonfire adept (Dragon Magic): a class very similar to the warlock, but with slightly different skills and weapon. I prefer it, myself... Entangling exhalation FTW ;) - Warlock: For the same reasons as everyone above said. - Dragon shaman (PHB II): kinda meh since everyone can take auras since Dragon Magic, but theirs are still a tad better. - Marshal (MHB)... possibly. I haven't seen much of it and generally, I'm unimpressed... but with WR from Tome of Battle it could be a serious support character. - Ranger: good number of skill points, decent abilities, but doesn't quite have the staying power for a main tank or the trapfinding skills to be the main scout unless they multiclass (or take the Dungeonscape variant). As a support character, however, they are very good as a secondary fighter, secondary scout, all-around guard (sensory skills+ animal companion) and tertiary spellcaster. - Binder (ToM): With the right vestiges, you can fill nearly any role. If you know what to expect for the day, you can do well - if not, you'll still be tolerable. Oh, and the entire concept is just cool :) - Incarnate/Totemis (MoI): similar to the binder in function, if not in execution. While the incarnate is more of a skill support and the totemist is more combat and mobility-oriented, both of them work imo best when the core 4 roles are covered. - Wilder (EPH): Due to its very small selection of powers - essentially equaling the warlock's invocations - it can't work as a primary "caster." However, as a support character with some melee potential, it is very good. Don't overdo it on damage powers and consider taking the Educated Wilder variant from the Mind's Eye article. - Warmage (CArc)/Dread Necromancer (HoH): these classes may be full casters, but they lack - or nearly lack - the necessary versatility of spellcasting to properly fill the niche of a party mage. Therefore, they work best if there is already one dedicated arcanist they can support. The PHB II beguiler is not included as a) it has trapfinding and enough skills to become a party scout and b) their spell list is notably more versatile as they can take shadow evocation/conjuration.
JaronK 03-21-08, 03:35 AM	Archivist (Heroes of Horror): A combination Cleric/Wizard that can grant bonuses to his allies as a free action, though he lacks serious offensive capability. ...Archivists do not lack offensive capability. At all. Anyway, a lot of classes can do the sort of "extra role" abilities... even classes that can also nail one of the basic class roles. For example, Crusaders are awesome tanks and healers, but can also play party leader with White Raven manuevers. Warblades are similar, being great party leaders in addition to being tanks. Really, it's hard to specify what a fifth man really is. The current party I'm playing in, for example, has a tank, but he's more of a debuffer than anything else (Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny). We have a skillmonkey (a ninja), but that's more of a damage dealer. And then we have a Dread Necromancer, who covers healing, but does so many other wierd things that he's really not the same role as a cleric. And of course a Beguiler, who's not a traditional arcanist at all. The point is, the traditional four roles (Tank, Healer, Arcanist, Skillmonkey) are in some ways no longer necessary, so the fifth man (anything else) is a somewhat obsolete concept. Heck, you could make a party out of fifth man characters with no problem (Binder, Bard, Ranger/Scout, Factotum) and everything would be basically covered. JaronK
Staple 03-21-08, 03:36 AM	- Wilder (EPH): Due to its very small selection of powers - essentially equaling the warlock's invocations - it can't work as a primary "caster." However, as a support character with some melee potential, it is very good. Don't overdo it on damage powers and consider taking the Educated Wilder variant from the Mind's Eye article. I strongly disagree on this one. While it's power selection is limited, a Wilder is just plain better at blasting than anyone else. An 8th level have 5 powers known, but really, he only needs 3: 1 Buff, 1 Blast, and Body Adjustment. While they're a one-trick pony and a bit on the boring side to play, a Wilder with Postpone Enervation, Psionic Meditation, and Empower Power is an absolute beast that makes a better blaster than a Sorceror or Wizard. By 8th level, a Wilder can shoot 11d6 OR 1.5X9d6 damage per round 9 times per day, all while wearing armor and holding a shield. Wilder is probably the best blaster class in the game, arguably the best base class period.
The_Shaman 03-21-08, 03:48 AM	I never said it's not a good blaster. However, being a main "mage" implies a lot more versatility, which the wilder imo lacks. It's the same with the Warmage and, to a point, the dread necro: they can be good classes in their own right, but they don't fit anywhere in the classical 4-man party. Sure, they cast level 9 spells, but the party would do well to have another mage to cover for all the spells/powers they can't provide.
Roxlimn 03-21-08, 08:49 AM	Red Ranger. 5-man teams are awesome. Or Artificer. That works, too.
Destindbomb 03-21-08, 10:10 AM	Thanks for all the replies guys, I'm gonna hope that this thread continues so that I cn hear other 5th-man teams. In the mean time, I'll just take a consolidated list of the classes to my group and try it out soon. As it stands now, we have: Bard Hexblade Binder Dragon Shaman Marshall Crusader Swordsage (of all the TOB, definately the most "5th-man"y) Factotum Archivist Warmage (most mages I play with end up as blasters, so I don't see this as "5th-man" material really) Dread Necromancer Binder Trunamer Warlock (although I could see it in the same way as the warmage, but with a few utility things thrown in) Cloistered Cleric Incarnate Wilder If anybody else one to throw into the ring, please do.
The_Shaman 03-21-08, 10:56 AM	Erm... ranger, once again? He can be a main combatant or a scout, but lacks something important either way. Likewise for the lurk from CPsi and to some degree the PHB monk. OTOH, I wouldn't put the crusader as a fifth member of any traditional group. The crusader is a great tank, and fills the main combatant role perfectly. I mean, what do you want from the big guy over there? To not die easily, to make sure the baddies can't get to the rest of you, and to lay down the smackdown. The crusader does all of these very, very well.
Cartigan 03-21-08, 11:41 AM	How are Archivist and Cloistered Cleric 5th wheel classes? Same with Crusader. Scout, archery style Ranger, and ranged Fighter are 5th wheel classes.
rjsilverthorn 03-21-08, 12:00 PM	How are Archivist and Cloistered Cleric 5th wheel classes? Same with Crusader. Scout, archery style Ranger, and ranged Fighter are 5th wheel classes. Archivist could potentially be 5th wheel material depending on your DM. If you are restricted in the spells you have access to, the Archivist could end up as a subpar cleric.
plaguewraith 03-21-08, 12:00 PM	I would like a list of classes that most people believe is a good 5th-man class. I saw that somebody posted somewhere on the forums about a group of all support style characters, and I'm going to suggest a game like that. It'll probably be something like a political of espionage game. that would be me, my team is made entirely of support characters as a challenge from our DM. and it is not an intrigue campaign, its a full adventure and fight it out style campaign
Cartigan 03-21-08, 12:40 PM	Archivist could potentially be 5th wheel material depending on your DM. If you are restricted in the spells you have access to, the Archivist could end up as a subpar cleric. That's like saying the Wizard is a subpar sorcerer.
Zootsuit 03-21-08, 12:52 PM	My personal favorite 5th-man classes are: Bard: Of course. The back-up spells and skill points are wonderful, but so is Inspire Courage. I've had Rogues and Sorcerers want to dip into Bard for a level or two just to get this. Ranger: with Bow specialization. Extra ranged damage is always a bonus, plus Track will fix a lot of problem before they start. Druid: Bonus heal spells are great, and with summon nature's ally plus wildshape, you can have an extra two frontliners in a pinch. Spelltheif: can just be plain fun to have around. Warlock: a little extra blasting power never hurt. Hexblade: Not tough enough for a frontliner, but has enough HP to compete in melee and the hexblade curse can be a huge benefit. Plus another character with a high Charisma score helps out in social situations.
AnonymousInternets 03-21-08, 12:55 PM	I assume the base 4 are arcanist, divinist, skillmonkey, and warrior. The only archetype after those that sounds like it could use some filling would be diplomat, so my vote goes to Beguiler (I'm surprised that hasn't been said yet). I know skillmonkies can do that, but I find that a good old fashioned Changeling Beguiler always gets the job done right. Alternatively, you could go with something not really archetypal, or something that goes on an obscure archetype. Dread Necromancer, Lurk, Enigmist, Artificer, Spellthief, and probably other things I can't think of could help the party in ways that most other classes can't emulate, though their roles aren't considered necessary.
Serge_P 03-21-08, 12:58 PM	Uhm, Titan monster class? (Not in any book, but on this forum.)
The_Shaman 03-21-08, 01:55 PM	I assume the base 4 are arcanist, divinist, skillmonkey, and warrior. The only archetype after those that sounds like it could use some filling would be diplomat, so my vote goes to Beguiler (I'm surprised that hasn't been said yet). I know skillmonkies can do that, but I find that a good old fashioned Changeling Beguiler always gets the job done right. I don't think they would need to be 5th wheels, however. With 6+int skill points and trapfinding, imo beguilers can effectovely take over the rogue's typical job.
M-bark 03-21-08, 02:19 PM	The Bard, Druid, Artificer and Wilder seem like good options to me. Bard is that typical Jack-of-all-Trades guy. He can't do Jack when pushed into one of the other roles but when being the fifth wheel on the wagon he can help the other four wheels do their part much better. Druid because they can take up any of the four main roles (arcanist, divinist, skillmonkey, warrior), unlike the Bard, and sometimes better than the typical classes in those roles. Artificer really backs up others well due to his ability to make stuff. Good stuff. Wilder is good because they need high Charisma (like the Bard) and thus make good party faces, and they also bring psionic powers to the group.
rjsilverthorn 03-21-08, 03:31 PM	That's like saying the Wizard is a subpar sorcerer. err, not really. The sorcerer trades spells known for more spells per day and spontaneous casting, other than that, the two are pretty close to the same. The Archivist not only gives up automatically knowing all the cleric spells, it also has the poor BAB, drops from a d8 to d6 HD, loses heavy armor proficiency and turn undead. This is supposed to be in exchange for access to any divine spell they can find and scribe to their prayerbook. If you reduce their access to just the normal clerical list, which they still have to find and scribe to their prayerbook, then I would personally call that sub-par to a normal Cleric. I definitely think the power of the Archivist is directly related to their access to other spell lists and the ease that they can find those spells in game.
Lotus Crane 03-21-08, 03:32 PM	I never said it's not a good blaster. However, being a main "mage" implies a lot more versatility, which the wilder imo lacks. It's the same with the Warmage and, to a point, the dread necro: they can be good classes in their own right, but they don't fit anywhere in the classical 4-man party. Sure, they cast level 9 spells, but the party would do well to have another mage to cover for all the spells/powers they can't provide. Indeed. You don't need magic to deal decent damage; in fact, as far as pure DPS is concerned, that's the one area of the game where non-casters, even the much maligned fighter, can compete with or even beat casters. What you do need magic for, is for when situations require the party to be able to fly or teleport somewhere quickly, to uncover secret or forgotten knowledge, to have the enemy chasing illusions while you complete your quest. Utility > blasting, as far as qualifying as the party "mage" is concerned. And honestly, plenty of fighter and scout/ranger builds get better ranged DPS than even warmages do.
The_Shaman 03-21-08, 03:36 PM	If you reduce their access to just the normal clerical list, which they still have to find and scribe to their prayerbook, then I would personally call that sub-par to a normal Cleric. I definitely think the power of the Archivist is directly related to their access to other spell lists and the ease that they can find those spells in game. Why would you do that? The very presumption of the class is that it has access to ranger, paladin or druid spells. I don't have HoH with me ATM,but doesn't the archivist get a couple of free spells known/level the same way the wizard does?
M-bark 03-21-08, 03:41 PM	Why would you do that? The very presumption of the class is that it has access to ranger, paladin or druid spells. I don't have HoH with me ATM,but doesn't the archivist get a couple of free spells known/level the same way the wizard does? Only from the Cleric list, however.
rjsilverthorn 03-21-08, 03:47 PM	Why would you do that? The very presumption of the class is that it has access to ranger, paladin or druid spells. I don't have HoH with me ATM,but doesn't the archivist get a couple of free spells known/level the same way the wizard does? Yes, he gets 2 spells from the clerical list at each level after first. As for why would a DM limit an Archivists access to other divine spells? It depends on the DM. Personally I chose not to play an Archivist with my one DM because I knew that I would have a hard time finding scrolls for more obscure spells, just because thats they way his games are. We also previously ruled the Warlock's item creation ability to work like the Artificer's, so thats cuts out one of the more popular means of getting access to specific spells. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying by any means that you SHOULD limit an Archivists access, I'm just saying their power is really dependent upon the DM running the game.
Cartigan 03-21-08, 04:27 PM	The only archetype after those that sounds like it could use some filling would be diplomat, so my vote goes to Beguiler (I'm surprised that hasn't been said yet). I know skillmonkies can do that, but I find that a good old fashioned Changeling Beguiler always gets the job done right. Beguiler, Ninja, and Spellthief can replace the Rogue. err, not really. The sorcerer trades spells known for more spells per day and spontaneous casting, other than that, the two are pretty close to the same. The Archivist not only gives up automatically knowing all the cleric spells, it also has the poor BAB, drops from a d8 to d6 HD, loses heavy armor proficiency and turn undead. This is supposed to be in exchange for access to any divine spell they can find and scribe to their prayerbook. If you reduce their access to just the normal clerical list, which they still have to find and scribe to their prayerbook, then I would personally call that sub-par to a normal Cleric. I definitely think the power of the Archivist is directly related to their access to other spell lists and the ease that they can find those spells in game. And? Saying the Archivist is a subpar Cleric is like saying the Wizard is a subpar Sorcerer. They both have access to the same list but in different ways. And they have different class features.
Metafictional 03-21-08, 05:03 PM	Since they have no one strong suit, and can buff the group, how about Divine Mind?
AnonymousInternets 03-21-08, 05:47 PM	Beguiler, Ninja, and Spellthief can replace the Rogue. True. Personally, though, when I played a changeling beguiler, having a rogue ally really helped me truly max out interaction abilities, cause otherwise you're forced to put quite a bit on your plate. :0
The_Shaman 03-21-08, 07:12 PM	Since they have no one strong suit, and can buff the group, how about Divine Mind? Meh, kinda. I suppose it's less bad at it than at everything else...
Cyrocloud 03-21-08, 09:54 PM	Here is the archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)it's open source. Spellcasting: An archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells spells. Unlike clerics, archivists prepare spells from a prayerbook, a collection of copied divine spells. To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, an archivist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an archivist's spell is 10 + the spell level + the archivist's Int modifier. There was also a sage's ruling stating that domain spells are also eligible for being copied into your prayerbook if you can find a scroll to copy anyway. So they basicaly get access to almost every spell in the game... Also how is cloistered cleric 5th roll he fits the healbot role pretty well. Even If he makes a great melee even with those d6 HD.
ArkhamInmate 03-26-08, 07:37 PM	In the Campaign I just finished running a few weeks ago that went from level 1 -16 the group consisted of a scout, a fighter, a paladin, a barbarian, and a marshall, and they really didn't have any problems with what i threw at them
silvergamgee 03-26-08, 08:55 PM	In the Campaign I just finished running a few weeks ago that went from level 1 -16 the group consisted of a scout, a fighter, a paladin, a barbarian, and a marshall, and they really didn't have any problems with what i threw at them Have a support or sub-par (if you will) party is not a problem so long as the DM doesn't make it a problem. If a bard, a rogue, a swashbuckler and a monk want to get together, cool. It's a challenge for the DM and a challenge for the players. As for a 5th wheel character, what about the Duskblade? People complain one way or the other about it, but they are as effective as a warrior no matter what and can suppliment the arcane spellcaster, freeing up the wizard to prepare a few utility spells. A mystic theruge allows the cleric and wizard to free up their choices. The MT will always be behind, but they can be a walking bag of utility spells and healing for the party (perfect for the player who only comes sometimes). The monk adds a blindingly fast counterpoint to your slow tank and are great at countering spellcasters. On a different tack, why not have a second tank, wizard, or cleric? Each one would find it's place.
ArkhamInmate 03-26-08, 08:59 PM	Have a support or sub-par (if you will) party is not a problem so long as the DM doesn't make it a problem. That was the thing, they told me that they wanted a difficult game and i threw pretty much anything i could at them, but due to really well done optimization they managed to prevail
Nathreet 03-26-08, 09:10 PM	Sorceror. There's no reason not to go for straight power when your party has all the bases covered. True, other classes are sometimes considered better casters, but as a secondary caster a sorceror can focus well. I once did a 12th level battlefield-control/mass-buffer sorc in a mixed 12-17th level party. He worked very well. For that matter any strong class is wide open, since all the necessities are already covered. Before you pick a support class, first ask yourself, "Am I really helping that much?" Or, in other words, you usually do more damage directly with a fireball than indirectly with a greater heroism.
The_Shaman 03-26-08, 10:23 PM	Actually, sorcerer works OK as a primary caster. Not great, but OK. For support caster, the "variant sorcerers" like dread necro, warmage, or beguiler. Or Wilder, for that matter. Of course, a group with 2 full arcanists such as a sorcerer or wizard will definitely have an advantage in situations where raw arcane power is useful. Read: 99% of the time
herrdoktor 03-27-08, 12:19 AM	For that matter any strong class is wide open, since all the necessities are already covered. Before you pick a support class, first ask yourself, "Am I really helping that much?" Or, in other words, you usually do more damage directly with a fireball than indirectly with a greater heroism. yeah, but fireball vs. haste? haste wins