Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crowclub 02-09-07, 10:47 AM	Which sword (Martial Discipline) do you like the most and why?
Salla 02-09-07, 01:07 PM	It's a hard call, but I'm pretty big on Tiger Claw. I like the high-flying jumping maneuvers ... very stylin'.
kadeity 02-09-07, 01:16 PM	i like Falling Star Style http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=771597
Tempest Stormwind 02-09-07, 01:18 PM	Wait, do you mean the swords (Desert Wind, Unfettered, Umbral Awn, Kamate, Blade of the Last Citadel, Supernatural Clarity, Eventide's Edge, and that falchion and kukri I can't remember) or the disciplines (Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, and Whte Raven)?
narukagami 02-09-07, 01:19 PM	I'm tied between Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon. I like Diamond Mind because I like the steely eyed warrior who calmly stands in wait before the perfect moment to kill his opponents archetype. On the other hand, I like Stone Dragon because I also like the martial artist who hits something so hard its obliterated in a single blow archetype.
Templario 02-09-07, 02:33 PM	I would say Diamond Mind too. Very close I vote for White raven and Iron Heart.
Romtos 02-09-07, 02:36 PM	Diamond Mind on first place Stone Dragon and Iron Heart on shared second place. :)
chromeraven 02-09-07, 02:50 PM	I'm a big fan of Shadow Hand. Diamond Mind and Setting Sun are exceptionally cool as well.
Darkwolf71 02-09-07, 04:01 PM	I'm partial to Desert Wind and Shadow Hand. At the moment though I am finding Iron Heart and Diamond Mind to be very fulfilling for my Deep Dwarven Warblade.
crowclub 02-09-07, 06:49 PM	I like Shadow Hand for the Teleport ability.
the_narrator 02-09-07, 07:25 PM	Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are the top for me, followed by Shadow Hand and Desert Wind. As for the actual swords, Kamate really does it for me. I've a thing for bastard swords and lightning.
Max the Immortal 02-09-07, 07:26 PM	I like Shadow Hand, for the stances, the shadow step maneuvers, and the ability damage strikes.
periscope 02-09-07, 07:30 PM	I like Iron heart, diamond mind, and tiger claw with a dash of stone dragon.
Shado 02-09-07, 11:14 PM	Shadow Hand. Why? Here's a hint: See my handle! :D (Sometimes it's just in your blood.)
Nitan 02-09-07, 11:37 PM	Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind in descending order.
Mordar 02-09-07, 11:54 PM	I like diamond mind then, tiger claw and stone dragon mixed together :D then shadow hand for the fun abilities
Guy42 02-10-07, 12:51 AM	Three way tie: Diamond Mind - the pure focus and clarity of mind Iron Heart - the grace of perfect swordplay Tiger Claw - the brutal, rampaging style In terms of the swords themselves... Supernatural Clarity and Kamate are my favorites. Just something about a Keen Rapier that can stop time and a bastard sword that can control lightning.
Seerow 02-10-07, 01:22 AM	Wow, so little Devoted Spirit love. That was my favorite discipline and it hasn't been mentioned once =X For the swords themselves, Supernatural Clarity is my favorite. Both mechanics wise, and picture-wise (yes I love the 9-swords pictures in that chapter)
Ariath Ska'Vhor 02-10-07, 01:39 AM	Toss up between Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind. Two sides of the spectrum. "MUST CONCENTRATE....ON...SAVAGERY!"
the_narrator 02-10-07, 01:40 AM	Of the pictures, I like Supernal Clarity the best. I don't much like how any of the others look, aside from maybe Umbral Awn.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 02-10-07, 01:45 AM	Desert Wind, my man. Dancing around all crazy? Catching things on fire almost by accident? Flying? Breathing Dragon's Fire? Striking quick as the flash of fire? Yeah. I'll take it. Besides, I've always had an inexplicable favoritism of any and all things 'Desert'.
crowclub 02-10-07, 03:47 PM	Looks like Diamond Mind wins by at least a couple of noses!
mato_hibiki 02-10-07, 04:19 PM	Setting sun, you gotta love using your foes as projectile weapons. Plus, using setting sun's ougi while standing next to a wall? Grab foe, spin around and slam him into the wall, take two diagonal steps to get around to his other side, thus covering ten feet, pick him up again, spin in place, and slam his face into the wall yet again. Repeat until you actually batter the wall down with his head. :D
Crimson_Concerto 02-10-07, 07:28 PM	Oh, God, this is hard... Hrm... I'm gonna have to say Desert Wind, I think, but I usually like to throw around the flavor of the discepline to make two variants; one for cold and one for electricity.
Bowmore 02-10-07, 09:27 PM	Iron Heart, my man, Iron Heart. The uncanny STYLE of it all just captivates me... the perfect, consummate swordsman -- no fireballs, no teleports, just pure skill. Perfect balance of speed and power. I was in love with it the moment I opened the book.
CaptainPicard 02-10-07, 10:31 PM	Diamond Mind closely followed by Shadow Hand. But Tiger Claw if I can play Machinae Supremacy music during the battle.:D
Votan 02-10-07, 10:51 PM	White Raven is one of the very few ways to play a good commander character in D&D (an archetype that is under-represented in D&D despite being extremely popular and common in fiction/literature). So it gets my nod under "makes a fun character concept" work. It also really improves a melee heavy party and I seem to play in a lot of these groups.
Tempest Stormwind 02-10-07, 11:05 PM	White Raven is one of the very few ways to play a good commander character in D&D (an archetype that is under-represented in D&D despite being extremely popular and common in fiction/literature). So it gets my nod under "makes a fun character concept" work. It also really improves a melee heavy party and I seem to play in a lot of these groups.Agreed wholeheartedly -- which is entirely why I did this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=752414). My favorites are White Raven and Diamond Mind, followed by Devoted Spirit, Setting Sun, and Tiger Claw. The only one I didn't really like was Shadow Hand, oddly enough.
Novabomb 02-10-07, 11:15 PM	Supernatural Clarity FTW.
Xaxor 02-10-07, 11:38 PM	I can't really decide between Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and Setting Sun. The Legacy weapons don't interest me.
itwasntme 02-10-07, 11:44 PM	Devorted spirt gets my brain thinking being able to heal your self per attack is nice and being able to do some of the other attacks are very nice the con damage per attack is nice as well
Aryxbez 02-11-07, 01:30 AM	I really like Diamond mind, because moving at mere seconds in time is awesome. Sort of like Iajitsu the first strike of the samurai, I can't spell it.
Kusari_Gamer 02-11-07, 01:54 AM	White Raven for me. It generates the highest damage output...as long as you can stand not being the center of attention.
periscope 02-11-07, 03:07 AM	White Raven for me. It generates the highest damage output...as long as you can stand not being the center of attention. Watta ya mean? With White Raven the whole point is that your the center of attention cause people have to listen to you to do the maneuvers. Its like "Do as I say, or no maneuver for you!"
Crispy_Spellthief 02-11-07, 03:53 AM	For me, my top two faves for the Sublime way are as follows: 1) Setting Sun: Cause I love how the maneuvers turn your opponents into ballistic missiles, and the whole idea of crowd control in general that Setting Sun seems to embody. 2) Tiger Claw: The aggresive animalistic maneuvers are cool, I like the stances, and as a Dominic Deegan fan, I love the fact that now we have the right to, in the middle of a battle, cry out "DEATH FROM ABOVE!" Beautiful. XD
Lotus Crane 02-11-07, 04:48 AM	The strongest discipline overall is probably White Raven. Depending on how many allies an initiator can muster, some of his maneuvers have nearly unlimited damage potential. Of course, in a solo fight, the usefulness of White Raven quickly tapers off, but every discipline has its less-than-ideal circumstances, and in normal campaign play, I think White Raven's limitations are the least likely to come up. The following are my reasons for not picking the other disciplines as strongest. Desert Wind: Probably the weakest discipline. Not only does it rely on pseudo-magical damage effects (which are considerably weaker than those of a true mage), it relies on fire damage, which is the worst kind possible. Heck, you could rename the discipline "Storm Wind" and change the energy type to electricity or even sonic, and it still wouldn't be a very good discipline. Devoted Spirit: The biggest drawback to this discipline is that you (usually) have to be a crusader to gain access to it, which means you're getting your maneuvers randomly, and can't guarantee you'll be able to make a rallying strike when your party actually needs it. Greater divine surge is probably broken in terms of how it can cranked up to a no-save auto-kill, but again, there's no guarantee a crusader will get it when it'd be most useful. Diamond Mind: It's much more skill point-intensive than the other disciplines, and even worse, its discipline skill is the otherwise useless Concentration (Tiger Claw is skill-intensive too, but at least that skill is Jump). Some of the save-replacing counters are useful, but the only major killer for this discipline is avalanche of blades, which doesn't show up for a long time. Iron Heart: As a discipline, it seems to suffer from a lack of focus. It has some healing, but Devoted Spirit does that better. It has some save enhancers, but Diamond Mind does that better. A lot of its maneuvers only function properly against a horde of lesser enemies; there really aren't too many focused anti-BBEG attacks in this discipline. Setting Sun: For the same reasons that a spiked chain-gun tripping fighter stops being effective at higher levels, this discipline also loses in the long run. Even with a combination of equipment, feat, and maneuver bonuses, it's nigh impossible to actually grapple, trip, or otherwise throw higher CR monsters around, due to their ridiculous size and Strength bonuses. It's a fantastic discipline if you're only facing humanoids your own size, but that's not an assumption I'm willing to make. Shadow Hand: The teleport abilities aren't nearly as useful as they sound, due to the short distances, and need for line of effect from origin to destination (thus you can't escape an airtight forcecage). Also, most of the strikes allow a save and/or require the opponent to be flat-footed. Why would I ever want to learn death in the dark when I could learn ancient mountain hammer instead, if they're both the same level? However, I admit that for certain builds, taking 1 level of swordsage at 9th character level for assassin's stance and the Shadow Blade feat is abusively good. However, no single dip is going to validate a discipline, for the same reason that ubiquitous 2-level dips in fighter do not validate the class. Stone Dragon: Some of maneuvers require you and/or your target to be standing on firm ground. Depending on where the campaign is taking place, this isn't always possible. Tiger Claw: I have no major complaints about this discipline, but I also have no major compliments. It's a reliable damage-dealer, but aside from 1-on-1 duels, White Raven typically outperforms it.
Argaud 02-11-07, 08:43 AM	I have no major complaints about Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, or Tiger Claw, but I also have no major compliments. They're all reliable damage-dealers which each specialize in their own set of circumstances, but White Raven typically outperforms them. I have a complain against Stone Dragon. At high level a PC will be flying quite a bit of the time, and therefore not touching the ground, which renders most of the discipline useless. Tiger Claw gets my vote because of some powerful stuff (tiger pounce at initiatior level 9, hell, yes!). White Raven gets another vote because of the awesome effects that apply to all the party, buffs are good. Iron Hearth is also pretty good, providing healing, spell-breaking and save bonus that warriors really need, on top of some good damage dealing.
Lotus Crane 02-11-07, 12:28 PM	I have a complain against Stone Dragon. At high level a PC will be flying quite a bit of the time, and therefore not touching the ground, which renders most of the discipline useless. Ah, good point. Well, at least the various mountain hammers and the awesome mountain tombstone strike don't require firm ground. Iron Hearth is also pretty good, providing healing, spell-breaking and save bonus that warriors really need, on top of some good damage dealing Meh, Devoted Spirit is better for healing and Diamond Mind is better for saves. Also, a lot of Iron Heart's maneuvers only function properly against a horde of lesser enemies; the discipline doesn't have too many focused anti-BBEG attacks.
Tempest Stormwind 02-11-07, 01:21 PM	Ah, good point. Well, at least the various mountain hammers and the awesome mountain tombstone strike don't require firm ground.False. Read the paragraph right where they describe the Stone Dragon maneuvers -- it says pretty explicitly that to use ANY Stone Dragon maneuver, you have to be in contact with the ground. Argaud: Man, if you thought level 9 was early for a pounce effect, you're in for a bit of a shock. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146&postcount=29)
Venenum 02-11-07, 01:33 PM	I'd say diamond mind, just cuase it isaw the french movie "En Guarde" where there is a famous fencing move that soulnds like one of the manuevers and its an insta kill. (from the movie that is)
Lotus Crane 02-11-07, 01:56 PM	False. Read the paragraph right where they describe the Stone Dragon maneuvers -- it says pretty explicitly that to use ANY Stone Dragon maneuver, you have to be in contact with the ground. Seriously? Hmm, then why do they go to the trouble of specifically mentioning that limitation again for certain maneuvers (such as crushing vise), but not for others (the various hammers)? Do you suppose it was an editing mistake, wherein Stone Dragon originally had the ground restriction for all maneuvers, then they decided to only apply it to certain maneuvers, but then forgot to delete the original catchall?
periscope 02-11-07, 02:19 PM	Seriously? Hmm, then why do they go to the trouble of specifically mentioning that limitation again for certain maneuvers (such as crushing vise), but not for others (the various [i]hammers[/])? Do you suppose it was an editing mistake, wherein Stone Dragon originally had the ground restriction for all maneuvers, then they decided to only apply it to certain maneuvers, but then forgot to delete the original catchall? I would hope so, seeing as none of the others have that restriction (desertwind doesnt require you to be in a desert for example). At most, I could see it as needing some stone or earth on you (like the one prc from sandstorm that requires a pound of sand for its abilities). Maybe stone boots or something?
Aminvelos 02-11-07, 05:11 PM	Diamon Mind and Tiger Claw. The counter saves from Diamon mind our fantastic. Although for me this may be because of our current dnd group. Our group consist of 7 players one which always turns evil and loves to betray our party.( and is always a mage) Also I like to multi swordsage/warblade so I have some low level maneuvers solely devoted to saves. Tiger claw is great for for ariel assault and allows me to utilize the points I put into tumble and jump. Also I'm a bit fan of the brute/leaping/man combo so those jump and tumble points are being used.
Richmud 02-11-07, 06:25 PM	Do you suppose it was an editing mistake, wherein Stone Dragon originally had the ground restriction for all maneuvers, then they decided to only apply it to certain maneuvers, but then forgot to delete the original catchall? It could just as easily be the other way starting out as a requirement for only a few and when they changed it to all they forgot to remove it from the individual maneuvers
aelryinth 02-11-07, 07:52 PM	Diamond Mind doesn't have good damage? Hello? They have the only strike where damage is based on a skill check. Do you have any idea how silly damage can get based on a skill check with any kind of cheap cheap boosters? And then it's tripled at high levels? They have the best single attack blow out of all of the Manuvers. What is it, Diamond Nightmare blade? Triple your concentration check? If you bother upping your concentration at all (and you should, because it sends your saves into the stratosphere), doing 180 pts of dmg with a single blow every time you use the strike is pretty much a lockdown. ===Aelryinth
megageek12 02-11-07, 07:54 PM	Especially without power attack or charging...180 damage still isn't that much though.
Tempest Stormwind 02-11-07, 10:18 PM	Diamond Mind doesn't have good damage? Hello? They have the only strike where damage is based on a skill check. Do you have any idea how silly damage can get based on a skill check with any kind of cheap cheap boosters? And then it's tripled at high levels? They have the best single attack blow out of all of the Manuvers. What is it, Diamond Nightmare blade? Triple your concentration check? If you bother upping your concentration at all (and you should, because it sends your saves into the stratosphere), doing 180 pts of dmg with a single blow every time you use the strike is pretty much a lockdown. ===Aelryinth Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike are the only ones that deal damage based on a skill check. The Nightmare Blade maneuvers deal normal damage, possibly more if your check was high (i.e. a nonmagical longsword in a 10-strength swordsage using Diamond Nightmare Blade does 1d8 damage still, unless the concentration check was successful, in which case it does 4d8 damage). The *real* strength in Diamond Mind (offensively-speaking, really, as it's *the* discipline to go to for saves) lies in Avalanche of Blades and Time Stands Still. My UberERcharger damage record (about 28000 melee damage in one round) was broken by using that trick. (Hint: Read the Stormguard Warrior feat and think about Avalanche of Blades. Follow it with White Raven Tactics (on yourself) and then, on your next action (same turn), Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still. That's the simplified version -- the record-setter's a bit more complex.)
periscope 02-11-07, 11:55 PM	Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike are the only ones that deal damage based on a skill check. The Nightmare Blade maneuvers deal normal damage, possibly more if your check was high (i.e. a nonmagical longsword in a 10-strength swordsage using Diamond Nightmare Blade does 1d8 damage still, unless the concentration check was successful, in which case it does 4d8 damage). The *real* strength in Diamond Mind (offensively-speaking, really, as it's *the* discipline to go to for saves) lies in Avalanche of Blades and Time Stands Still. My UberERcharger damage record (about 28000 melee damage in one round) was broken by using that trick. (Hint: Read the Stormguard Warrior feat and think about Avalanche of Blades. Follow it with White Raven Tactics (on yourself) and then, on your next action (same turn), Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still. That's the simplified version -- the record-setter's a bit more complex.) :confused: :OMG! Can you provide a link to this record setter? I just want to know how the @#$! you can do something like that. Also, what book is the stormguard warrior feat in if you would.
Tempest Stormwind 02-12-07, 12:22 AM	:confused: :OMG! Can you provide a link to this record setter? I just want to know how the @#$! you can do something like that. Also, what book is the stormguard warrior feat in if you would. Stormguard Warrior is the Iron Heart tactical feat from the Tome of Battle. Specifically, read the Combat Rhythm maneuver. Then imagine doing that with Avalanche of Blades (possibly on a low-AC target that you bring with you), followed by a White Raven Tactics on yourself (CustServ: You count as your own ally, despite broken tricks like this), then follow it up with a Raging Mongoose and a Time Stands Still. If your melee damage is really low and you have a lot of melee attacks, consider Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip instead of Raging Mongoose, but I doubt that'd be an issue. The build is called Spank the Monkey (I named it but had no other input on it), since it involves smacking around a target (in this case, a monkey) a bit to prime your attacks for some SERIOUS smackdown. And that build doesn't use Avalanche of Blades because it gets a BOATLOAD of attacks on its own, so many that Avalanche would be superfluous. (The other key element is the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC, which enables you to spend turn attempts to recover maneuvers. Add in the oh-so-broken Duracell of the Gods (aka the Nightstick rod, originally from Defenders of the Faith and reprinted in Libris Mortis), and you've got the power of small-scale nuclear fission in your backpack.) I don't have a link, but I'm looking for it. The basic premise can be done by any high-level warblade with Avalanche in place of a lot of attacks (though lots of attacks are preferred), White Raven Tactics, and Time Stands Still. Raging Mongoose is just preferred to add attacks to your full attack routine.
periscope 02-12-07, 12:28 AM	Im sorry its just wow! I mean, I just want to show this to a friend who thinks that even with TOB that mages are the only ones that can basically be a nuclear weapon. If I can get a picture of his expression when I show him this I'll post it for everyone to see, warriors unite against the mage threat!