Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Twinkletoes73 10-18-06, 05:16 AM	I recently created a thorp using the Generating Towns rules found between pages 137 and 139 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, and one of the NPCs in the town is a level 9 commoner. My first question is: how does a person become a ninth level commoner? Does he or she wander into a dungeon and patiently kill one kobold at a time until he or she levels up? Does that process continue for ten years? Secondly, what kind of weapons or items should a ninth level commoner have? Do I use the NPC Gear Value table found on page 127 of the Dungeon Master's Guide and give him or her 12,000 gp worth of stuff, even though I'm intentionally making a poor community? And finally, the thorp also has two 7th level commoners, 4 5th level commoners, and 8 3rd level commoners. I want to make one of the 7th level commoners a crazy bad guy, but I don't know what his CR should be. I mean, he's a commoner. If he was a fighter or a warrior his CR would be 7 (I think), but should he be rated that high? Thanks for reading, and thanks for responding! -Tom PS. A thought just occurred to me. In the NPC Gear Value table on page 127 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide it says that even a 1st level NPC has 900 gp of gear, even though that pretty much contradicts the image of the average commoner given in the Economics section of the Dungeon Master’s Guide on page 139. But pretty much every commoner has a place to live, and maybe the value of that building can be counted as “gear.” A simple house is supposed to cost 1,000 gp, so it might roughly work out. Maybe not. Somebody please set me straight.
babysamurai 10-18-06, 05:59 AM	Think of the wise elder of a farming village who has had to defend his home/village a lot, and used diplomacy with neighbouring whatever.
Kanachi 10-18-06, 07:18 AM	Not all experience is gained from killing. Quests may come in many forms and there is no reason why quests cant be things that would appear relatively mundane to a PC. A NPC will therefore likely gain levels at a slow rate, though simply living their day to day lives. A community leader with a diplomatic flare, a specific knowledge or skill that other lack or of great wisdom could be considered high level commoners
Wolfvyn 10-18-06, 09:34 AM	Instead of making these people commoners it would probably be a good idea to make them either a more powerful npc or a PC class of about half thier current lvls. For example the 9th lvl commoner should really be a 4th or 5th lvl warrior, fighter, cleric or wizard. If he's a warrior or fighter, he'd be captain of the town gaurd, leader of the local militia or an officer from a local army stationed at the town to patrol roads, keep supply lines intact, ect. If he's a cleric then he'd be head of the most popular local temple. If he's a wizard then he'd be the local sage, librarian or scholar. Maybe even mayor of the town. The other high lvl commoners should probably be experts, warriors/fighters, aristocats or maybe even one is a rogue and leader of the local theives guild. Also 900 gp worth of "gear" also probably includes a home or shop for the npc.
Lord_Tirian 10-18-06, 12:16 PM	I think Sean K Reynolds also had a theory about commoners... it was like this: A single encounter is CR 1 and represents an average danger with little, yet present chance of death. One year as farmer involves dangers, even for your existence... because of accidents, hardships, and because you need to get money, thus a single year could be seen as a CR 1 encounter for a commoner, explaining, why commoners get levels. High-level commoners are less frequent, because you get less XP at higher levels...
Kadasbrass 10-18-06, 12:26 PM	I rolled up a large city and got a lvl 23 Common... I can understand high level experts. But I think at some point a commoner would go "why am I putting levels in commoner still? I'm doing the work of a expert why not take a few levels in that?"
malignor 10-18-06, 12:55 PM	I think Sean K Reynolds also had a theory about commoners... it was like this: A single encounter is CR 1 and represents an average danger with little, yet present chance of death. One year as farmer involves dangers, even for your existence... because of accidents, hardships, and because you need to get money, thus a single year could be seen as a CR 1 encounter for a commoner, explaining, why commoners get levels. High-level commoners are less frequent, because you get less XP at higher levels...This was a theory I was playing with. The idea is that a crisis of life is CR1 to CR3, depending on how large scale the crisis is, and how hard it is to overcome. A farmer who survives a hard growing year just defeated a CR1 encounter. The aristocrat who diffuses a potential war with months of difficult political maneuvering defeated a CR3 encounter. The merchant who survives a depression defeated a CR 1 encounter. One way to advocate against this is to bring up the differences in lifespans between the races. For example, Elves would have alot more higher level NPCs by virtue of this concept, correct? Well the answer is either to say "yes and that's fine" or to look at elven/dwarven society. You'll notice that very few books have elves who live like humans. There are few elven or dwarven farmers. There are few elven or dwarven societies that suffer through plagues, famine or pestilence or economic strife. Often, their societies are more advanced and stable, either through magic (elves) or by vitue of their wealth and organization (dwarves). Thus they suffer fewer threatening hardships, and thus level up slower from a mundane life. In fact, one could use 20/20 hindsight for this and realize that early elven & dwarven societes did level up faster, before they were established. Since the society was populated by level 8-12 characters, and they lived so long, they were able to complete more ambitious projects and thus more easily build a community which is stable and less punctuated with strife and hardship. Since the community evolved this way, the "elves and dwarves of today" live those easier lifestyles and now level up slower.
Lord_Tirian 10-18-06, 02:47 PM	One way to advocate against this is to bring up the differences in lifespans between the races. For example, Elves would have alot more higher level NPCs by virtue of this concept, correct? Well... this is counterbalanced by the fact, that - once you hit level-ten-ish regions, you won't get any XP for CR1-3 encounters anymore... - so the higher levels are reserved for people, who have encountered true threats... - and NPCs with level 11+ should always been "legendary", so they deserve more background story.
Frugal 10-18-06, 03:11 PM	I rolled up a large city and got a lvl 23 Common... I can understand high level experts. But I think at some point a commoner would go "why am I putting levels in commoner still? I'm doing the work of a expert why not take a few levels in that?" Remember, class is a metagame concept, so no character ever asks that, player or non-player. And class does not equal profession so he could very well be doing the work of an expert. He gets less skill points per level so maybe he has to devote some of his time to more menial times, maybe he's an apprentice under a master, or perhaps financial reasons have kept him from practising a trade full time. Or maybe he's picked up a little bit of a skill on the side. The other issue could be class (as in social class) issues, perhaps he's picked up a bit of skill in smithing but since he's not a member of the mercantile class he can't practice it as a trade, he does some personal work but that's it. Becoming an expert could require being apprenticed since a young age (possibly at a cost to his family) or to have been born into a family that practices a trade.
Kadasbrass 10-18-06, 04:18 PM	You right a class is a metagame concept, but at some point a commoner has enough knowlegde to be considered an expert in their area of work if their hitting the epics.
CryoSilver 10-18-06, 04:23 PM	That is represented by the ranks and feats invested in their primary skill set. Just because Jimbob Farmer is a really really good farmer doesn't mean he should become an Expert. Expert would grant him more skill points (why? At best, he needs Prof (farmer), Survival, and maybe Diplomacy (to haggle at the market)), a bigger hit die (is being a really good farmer cause for being inherently harder to kill than any other farmer, after level is taken into account), weapon and armor proficiencies (this makes the least sense), and access to more class skills (is Jimbob taking night classes or something?). As far as farming is concerned, Jimbob (human Com10) with 13 ranks in farming as well as SF: farming is as good a farmer as Steve Expert (human Exp10) with the same skill and feat, but has no need for the other 4 skills or weapons and armor profs.
Occam 10-18-06, 04:39 PM	My first question is: how does a person become a ninth level commoner? An excellent question. I don't have an answer for it. Secondly, what kind of weapons or items should a ninth level commoner have? Do I use the NPC Gear Value table found on page 127 of the Dungeon Master's Guide and give him or her 12,000 gp worth of stuff, even though I'm intentionally making a poor community? The rules for NPC gear/treasure allocation are contradictory and/or incomplete, so there's interpretive wiggle room. I would use CR when referencing the NPC Gear Value table (leading to 9400 gp for CR 8, in this case). Also, remember that the values in that table are suggestions, not requirements. I want to make one of the 7th level commoners a crazy bad guy, but I don't know what his CR should be. I mean, he's a commoner. If he was a fighter or a warrior his CR would be 7 (I think), but should he be rated that high? CR for NPC classes is one less than level, so a 7th-level commoner (or warrior, for that matter) is officially CR 6. Which is strange, considering that commoner is even weaker than the other NPC classes; you could probably call it CR 5. A thought just occurred to me. In the NPC Gear Value table on page 127 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide it says that even a 1st level NPC has 900 gp of gear, even though that pretty much contradicts the image of the average commoner given in the Economics section of the Dungeon Master’s Guide on page 139. But pretty much every commoner has a place to live, and maybe the value of that building can be counted as “gear.” A simple house is supposed to cost 1,000 gp, so it might roughly work out. If you use that table with CR, then a 1st-level commoner is CR 1/2 or less, and so should have much less than 900 gp of gear.
CryoSilver 10-18-06, 04:46 PM	The rules for NPC gear/treasure allocation are contradictory and/or incomplete, so there's interpretive wiggle room. I would use CR when referencing the NPC Gear Value table (leading to 9400 gp for CR 8, in this case). Also, remember that the values in that table are suggestions, not requirements. A human commoner 10 with a 12 Wis, max ranks in Profession (farmer) and SF: Profession (farmer) has a +17 to Profession (farmer) checks. By the rules of Profession, he earns an average of 13.5 gp/week in pure profit. TECHNICALLY, Profession doesn't require him to actually FARM, just make the check, so you don't need to factor in expenses. Assuming he supports a family of 4 including himself on common meals (3 per day) it costs him 1.2*7=8.4 gp/week to feed his family, leaving him with 5.1 gp/week. 52 weeks in a year = 265.2 gp/year assuming no other expenses, as well as assuming his wife doesn't work.
Daxen 10-18-06, 05:18 PM	1.) A 9th level commoner has been around for a long time 2.) His station in life has not improved much in that long time 3.) He has probably never been further than 20 miles away from his home 4.) You need to know a little of everything to survive as a commoner and you have no idea what Cross Class means you just learn what you need to know. Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge Nature, Knowledge Local, Knowledge Religion Hide, Sense Motive, Profession (whatever), Craft (whatever), Climb, Handle Animal, Heal, Spot, Listen, Search, Survival, Swim, Use Rope, Ride these are all skills I could see a commoner using often enough to have put effort (ranks) into getting better. With all these factors taken into account you can come up with quite the diverse list of 9th level commoners. However, when it rolls up as commoner and something like 9th level this is Interchangable with a 3rd level cleric who leads the local church, a 4th level fighter who is the captain of the town guard/militia a 4th level Ranger who is the Warden of the surrounding forest for a local Lord or a 7th level of one of the NPC classes that would make a decent mayor or something. In a magic heavy campaign you could go with a 3rd or 4th level mage which would also boost teh cleric up to 4th level. It all depends on the situation, but in a poor town with little in the way of a craftsman or mercantile class a 9th level commoner is not out of the question. Most of that wealth would be in land and livestock and the strong backs or wide hips of the commoners daughters. He has the biggest house among the small houses and perhaps a paddock with 30 sheep with a buckboard and two nice horses to draw it. Accruing 13000gp of stuff over what has probably been nigh on a 60 year span is not out of the realm of sense.
Evalis 10-18-06, 06:22 PM	I would caution against using any table, random generator, or source book that associates skill with level for non-pc characters. In fact, associating skill with level at all is inherently flawed. However.. that being said, there are a few skills that would warrant it. A blacksmith for example has to spend hours upon hours every day in front of a hot forge hammering away and building his muscles. It is reasonable to believe that he can take a greater beating than your average joe, possibly even up to the d6 hit die he would recieve as an expert. The same might ring true for someone that is an expert of disable device, as they likely place themselves in the line of fire of a 'failed' disable check on a frequent basis. However, to have an expert of bakery with 32 hitpoints is bordering on absurd. The same would be true of a 9th level commoner. 'Commoner' of what, if I may ask? This is especially true of societies where inlistment into the army is a requirement, not a choice. After determining that mr baker is about 4 times more durable than any of the other standard militia (even if he couldn't hit worth a damn) they would hunt him down, force him to enlist, and drop him into the front lines as a sheild gaurdian for the rest of the ranks. It also isn't reasonable to believe that every expert or commoner that falls under this category has 3 con to ensure 1hp/level, because they would have died long ago from the common flu, or some other disease. Ignore rolls like this, and make that person either very wealthy (triple or quadruple their NPC wealth) with boosted skills, or turn them into an appropriate class character total level -2. An alternate change of course.. could be to just assume that all commoners and most experts have 2-4 hp at first level and gain 1 each level with no con modifier.. but still.. you'll probably find a few superchefs around by doing this.
Kadasbrass 10-18-06, 06:29 PM	That is represented by the ranks and feats invested in their primary skill set. Just because Jimbob Farmer is a really really good farmer doesn't mean he should become an Expert. Expert would grant him more skill points (why? At best, he needs Prof (farmer), Survival, and maybe Diplomacy (to haggle at the market)), a bigger hit die (is being a really good farmer cause for being inherently harder to kill than any other farmer, after level is taken into account), weapon and armor proficiencies (this makes the least sense), and access to more class skills (is Jimbob taking night classes or something?). The biggest lie in the DMG is that farmers are commoners. You ever been to a farm before? Through out our entire history before modern times, farms were self-sufficient, they spend their entire day working, and their not in the field that whole time. The Pre-Industrial age farmer required alot of skills in order to survive: On the farm men will have ranks in Crafts for wood working and sometimes in leatherworking or metal working depending on how much or little contact they had with the outside word. Might buy tools and nails, but need to have skill in order to repair and build furtiture, buildings and other assets used by farmers (wagons, barrels, so forth). Women will have ranks in profession sewing. Historically farmers don't make enough to pay for more then the raw materials for goods. And with the manual labor required by farming their going to go throw alot of cloths. A good farmer may make enough to buy cloths, but repairs will be required often. Farmers will often have a few rank in profession brewer or butcher. Meat, vegatables, and fruits will not stay fresh for long and what they don't use soon will need to be prepared for storing. Why pay someone to butcher your animals when you can do it yourself and keep the good parts afterwards? Fruits and vegatables will be stewed and canned or prepared in other ways (apple cider for example). Alot of farmers also need to know how to take care of animals and treat them. Also need the knowledge to keep certain animals from eating your crops or even how to grow crops to begin with. This covers both knowledge nature and handle animal. And yes, when the farmer does finally get the time to go into town. he will put his Diplomacy into use for haggling. Also while I think about it a farmer would also have ranks in knowledge local, because when farmers do get together they always talk about whats going on locally and they try to out do each other with the greatest piece of gossip (this is true for all social classes). Theres a few other skills I'm forgetting to include (like ride), so I can safely say that a farmer is not a commoner.
Frugal 10-18-06, 06:38 PM	I'll agree that commoner doesn't have to equal farmer. That could just as easily be a smith, or a baker or a wheelwright or wainwright or any number of other medieval professions that can be represented by putting some ranks into craft and/or profession.
fatchuck 10-18-06, 07:46 PM	**** fire and burn, all of the comments here are the best insights into commoners that I've seen on this board (or published) for years. It gives my level 22 Favored Soul (neutral good) something different to strive for roleplaying-wise since, frankly, most of my focus has been on equipment upgrades and defeating BBEGs and their monsters. I don't think my PC has paid more than 2-3 moments' notice to the concerns of commoners in the last 17 levels outside of abusing them with Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive. When you take the time to write out the DnD world through their eyes, it makes the game a lot different. OK, to actually be constructive. FWIW, when my friend DMs, he boosts commoner skill points from 2 to 6 for direct, job-related skills, gives them "Knowledge: Whatever is applicable to their job", Knowledge: Local, and increases 1 job-related save from 6 to 12 (e.g., farmers get a Fort save of 12, while acrobats get a Reflex save of 12). Their BAB, skill list, weapon proficiencies, hit die, and base NPC ability scores remain unchanged. This way, higher-level commoners can actually be of some help to our party, although far too frail or simple to adventure.
Twinkletoes73 10-19-06, 02:15 AM	The number and quality of posts on this board always impresses me. Thank you all so much for your help. In the end I am going to make my crazy evil level 7 commoner a CR 6 challenge, and though I don't know what gear to give to her for the players to loot, I'll probably figure something out. Just in case you are wondering, the thorp I'm building is located near the western slopes of the Corusk Mountains in Greyhawk, and is technically under the domain of the Ice Barbarians. Plek (thorp): Conventional; AL CE; 40 gp limit; Assets 100 gp; Population 52; Isolated (96 human, 2 halfling, 1 elf, 1 other) Authority Figure: None Important characters: Dali Krest, female human Com7 (insane town bully); Telp Gull, male human Exp3 (blacksmith); Norlander, human male Wiz1 (sick old man with missing familiar) Notes: This thorp was never very large or prosperous, but used to afford some supplies and a last waypoint for anyone crossing the Corusk mountains on the West. It is now particularly downtrodden, has no formal government, and is subject to the whims of a monstrous woman named Dali. She has only recently gone insane and paranoid, however, so even though the people tend to be afraid of her she has not yet become a serious threat to their lives. Kobolds have also recently been threatening ranchers on the mountainside outskirts of the town.
Airos 10-19-06, 03:57 AM	My first question is: how does a person become a ninth level commoner? Does he or she wander into a dungeon and patiently kill one kobold at a time until he or she levels up? Does that process continue for ten years? A house rule we use in our games is that the NPC classes gain "XP" through their trade. A merchant gains a little XP each time he sells or buys something, a baker gains a little xp each time she bakes a loaf of bread, etc... roughly about a level a year, within reason. So after 10 years or so, you wind up as good a chef as Emeril, or as good a home repair/building as Bob Vila. After 20 or 30 years, you, (could), wind up as good a weaponsmith as Masamune or Muramasa. Education also plays a large part in how NPC's "gain levels". A scholar will be "higher level" after 4 years of school than before, hence, more skill points and possably a feat. Granted, this doesn't explain HP, saves and BAB, but if it doesn't make sense in game, rule against it. Give them the skill points of a higher level npc, a couple of feats that make sense like skill focus, but leave their HP, saves and BAB at the first level numbers since they haven't had the combat training to "take a hit". (Unless they're being beaten up every day by the class bully for milk money) Man.... Now I want to sit down with the DMG and roll up some "legendary" characters using only NPC classes. Maybe 2 or 3 of each class with their own area of expertise. :plotting:
Starman IX 10-19-06, 05:53 AM	Commoners may be one CR lower than anyone else, but they also start out with 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 for stats (excluding racial bumps and penalties). Give them anything else and they bump up a CR. Silly, eh? :nonono:
CryoSilver 10-19-06, 05:45 PM	On the farm men will have ranks in Crafts for wood working and sometimes in leatherworking or metal working depending on how much or little contact they had with the outside word. Might buy tools and nails, but need to have skill in order to repair and build furtiture, buildings and other assets used by farmers (wagons, barrels, so forth). 1 rank in Craft (woodworking) for a male farmer Women will have ranks in profession sewing. Historically farmers don't make enough to pay for more then the raw materials for goods. And with the manual labor required by farming their going to go throw alot of cloths. A good farmer may make enough to buy cloths, but repairs will be required often. 1 ranking in Craft (clothing) for a female farmer Farmers will often have a few rank in profession brewer or butcher. Meat, vegatables, and fruits will not stay fresh for long and what they don't use soon will need to be prepared for storing. Why pay someone to butcher your animals when you can do it yourself and keep the good parts afterwards? Fruits and vegatables will be stewed and canned or prepared in other ways (apple cider for example). 1 rank in Profession (butcher) Alot of farmers also need to know how to take care of animals and treat them. Also need the knowledge to keep certain animals from eating your crops or even how to grow crops to begin with. This covers both knowledge nature and handle animal. 1 rank in Handle Animal And yes, when the farmer does finally get the time to go into town. he will put his Diplomacy into use for haggling. Also while I think about it a farmer would also have ranks in knowledge local, because when farmers do get together they always talk about whats going on locally and they try to out do each other with the greatest piece of gossip (this is true for all social classes). 1 rank in Diplomacy, 0 ranks in Knowledge (local); common gossip is a DC 10 check 1 rank in Ride Subtotal: 5 skill points. +4 ranks in Prof (farmer) Total: 9 ranks, with 3 to spare based on: A level 1 human Commoner with Int 10 has 12 skill points