Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SoulGrasp 05-16-05, 10:11 AM	I am not an advid spellcaster player, but as I read the forums, I see everyone saying the wizard demolishes the Sorc in every way, and I was wondering why. Is it because they get more powerful spells? Thanks ahead of time! ~:P~
Ricohard_Draconis 05-16-05, 10:12 AM	because they get more spells, thus allowing them to have a greater range of options, and also that they have a slightly faster CL progression.
Votan 05-16-05, 10:32 AM	I am not an advid spellcaster player, but as I read the forums, I see everyone saying the wizard demolishes the Sorc in every way, and I was wondering why. Is it because they get more powerful spells? Thanks ahead of time! ~:P~ No, it is because many people have not play-tested the classes enough. :rant: Okay, a bit controversial but basically the issue is this: The wizard has a lot more strategic flexibility. With the ability to learn new spells beyound their basic allotment, the wizard can configure themselves to be extremely dangerous against a specific challenge or in a specific duel. The sorcerer has a lot more tactical flexibility. Especially at lower levels this is an enormous advantage. Every time a wizard casts a spell he loses an option. This isn't bad at the beginning when he is fresh and if you face few challenges and few surprises the wizard looks really good. The sorcerer has more spells and preserves options until almost the very end. Consider 2 1st level characters. A sorcerer who knows sleep and mage armor (and casts 4 spells per day). A wizard who knows 5 spells but has memorized sleep and mage armor. If the wizard casts sleep once then he has lost that option for a later encounter. If the sorcerer casts sleep he retains the option to use it again later. Now the wizard knows more spells and might decide that he needs a different spell on a given day (say Mount which a Sorcerer will never have). So he can alter what he has ready on any given day. Also note that a wizard needs to buy his extra spells. He gets (using the elite array) 43 spells in 20 levels. If you lose your spellbook even once then it is going to be less interesting. The sorcerer knows 34 spells in 20 levels (I'm excluding all cantrips). The wizard gets scribe scroll (an okay feat) and 4 metamagic or item creation feats for free. If you know that your spellbook is protected, you'll be able to use these feats to increase the power of the wizard. Otherwise, the smart move is to take spell mastery here (parity with the sorcerer basically --- fewer innate spells but the potential for more spells overall). Scribing is expensive: 50 gp per spell level plus 100 GP per page in the book (1 per level). Spellbooks are heavy and can be damaged or lost easily. They are also the most expensive item the party has at low levels. There is also a spellcraft check involved which can make a specific spell unlearnable for another level. The real advantage to being a wizard seems to show up at very high levels when there are a lot of once per day spells that make a huge difference. Contingency, Mind Blank and Moment of Prescience are all things that you only need one of (i.e. you're not going to be spontaneously casting them alot) and make a huge difference in effectiveness.
Maraxus 05-16-05, 10:42 AM	Why is Contingency a 1/day spell? :) It's 1/encounter. Sorcerers are stronger then wizards in terms of fighting power. However, the wizard has much more spells for all situations. A good combination is to have both, a wizard and a sorcerer, in a party.
Sinon 05-16-05, 11:26 AM	You can have only one Contingency spell in place at a time. (Note: this is different from the Contingency Item described in Complete Arcane.) That makes it almost useless for a sorcerer to place this spell on his spells-known list. It has a range of personal, so you can't use it to buff a friend. When you are only ever going to know 3 sixth-level spells, would you have one this limited?
Jaid 05-16-05, 11:38 AM	i think he was saying that you could theoretically (depending on what your contingency is) use it up each battle. for example, if you have contingency for mage armor (which i'm sure is nowhere near the best choice) as soon as you get attacked, then chances are you will use up your contingency in the first combat encounter you face in a day. incidentally, don't know if it's still around, but in 3.0 there was a feat called arcane preparation... lets you prepare spells by preparing them if you are normally a spontaneous spellcaster (who'd have guessed with that name), and of course, you do that using a spellbook. so, if you should happen to have only a sorceror in the party, you could always take that feat (provided it's still around) and have all those 1/day spells too =D
Kolo 05-16-05, 11:44 AM	When you are only ever going to know 3 sixth-level spells, would you have one this limited? I might take it, if I didn't have access to Magic of Faerun's Prismatic Eye spell. Contingency is a very useful spell to bandy about when you want to cast many spells at once, something which is hard to achieve with the sorcerer (well, one without Arcane Preparation anyway). Then again, the choice already stands between taking Disintegrate, Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Analyze Dweomer and potentially the aforementioned Prismatic Eye without adding Contingency into the mix of useful spells. Hm. Guess it requires a large amount of very careful and analytical thought. I'm gonna meditate on this a bit.
Maraxus 05-16-05, 11:51 AM	I think improved invisibility is a good spell to put into Contingency. The condition that triggers it could be "I say peekaboo" - this is another quickened spell per combat. And better - it's a sorcerer's only quickened spell. In other words: Yes, I think that a sorcerer can have contingency and use it really good.
Votan 05-16-05, 11:56 AM	I think improved invisibility is a good spell to put into Contingency. The condition that triggers it could be "I say peekaboo" - this is another quickened spell per combat. And better - it's a sorcerer's only quickened spell. In other words: Yes, I think that a sorcerer can have contingency and use it really good. Oh, it is possible to make contingency work for a sorcerer but it is a spell best suited for wizards. Like many spells, it is one where knowing only one copy of the spell doesn't hurt and you can use other slots to get other decent spells. There is stiff competition for each spell slot that a sorcerer gets and while contingency might be worth it, it's usually a wizard thing. This is even more the case with spells like wish and permanancy -- they can add alot but having one as a spell known is a pain.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-16-05, 12:03 PM	actually, arcaner preparation let you prepare YOUR KNOWN SORCERER SPELLS, not spells form a spellbook. the only reason to do this was to avoid the slow metamagic suffered by sorcerers. now, to respond to the poster who argued for sorcerers: i don't belive sorcerers are useless, but I think that wizards are somewhat mroe powerful. your first level example is not very useful, because first level characters are so limited in thier spell slots that the sorcerer's having one moe spell slot is a major advantage. but at, say, level 10, this is less of an issue. now, let's look at the pros and cons of each class: Wizards: able to learn more spells with money (IIRC, just 50 GP per spell level.) able to use quicken spell gets bonus feats gets higher level spells than a sorcerer at odd levels gets earlier access to PrCs sorcerers theoretically have these advantages: more psells per day more flexibility ability to learn spells of every school (i'm assuming all wizards are specialists, becasue i can't imagine otherwise) let's examine them one at a time: "sorcerers are flexible": this is somewhat true, but only for low-level effects. remeber that a sorcerer gets 3rd level spells at 6th, not 5th, for example. and even then, when he gest 2nd or 3rd level spells at 4th or 6th, he only knows one. he has the felbility to use that one spell three times. the sixth level wizard, however, ALSO HAS 3 THIRD LEVEL SPELLS, and knows AT LEAST 4 to choose from. "sorcerers have more spells per day": in combat, what's most important is generally your highest level spells; a sorcerer never has more of the highest level spells thanh wizards do. how many fireballs can we cast? at 5th level, wizard beats sorcerer 2 to 0. at sixth level, they tie 3 to 3. finally, because of the extra spell levle, the total number of spell slots a sorcerer gets is not much higher than the wizards on odd levels. assuming specialization, 4th level: Sor 9 Wiz 7 5th level: Sor 10 Wiz 9 and, assuming a 15 spellcasting stat boostd to 16 at 4th level, the real numbers are Sor 12 Wiz 12. in other words, a 5th level wizard has the same number of spells per day as a sorcerer, and they're higher level. at high levels, the sorcerer finally does get significantly more spells per day, but by then, running out of spells is a rare event. all that matters is the number of high level spells available, and the sorcerer is not better than a wizard there. thus, the sorcerers advantage in in low-levle spells. thopse ar ethe lvels of speels for which he knows enough spells to have genuine flexibility, and has enough spell slots to use them. there are some things for which sorcerers are bette rthan wizards, like buffing a large party or shooting off magic missile after magic missile, or at high levels, fireball after fireball. but the wizard has access to more low level utilitily spells voer time, but fewer at a moment's notice. i'd call that a tie. meanwhile, the wizard has higher level spells and more high-level spells known.
Ook! or possibly squeek! 05-16-05, 12:39 PM	I agree with fuzzy logic in all but one (very specific) senario picture this a wizard and a sorcerer are ambushes by a fire elemental (imune to fire damege vunerable to cold) the wizard prepred fire spells and no cold spells so cant do much with spels (befor anyone says it i know that you can get feets tat alow you to change spell energy type) but a sorserer can cast any spells he knows so can use all his cold discriptor spells to dispach the elemental this holds true for for any situation were an opponent is imune or resistant to sertan effects and vunerable to others and i know befor anyone says it that a wizard shuld chose his preperd spells with caire i always play a wizard (not becase there batter or wors but becase i like them) so i know how important spell preperation is
Sinon 05-16-05, 01:03 PM	Squeek, please use periods. You're right about the difficulty a wizard can face when he has memorized the wrong spells, but he is likely to have the right spell somewhere, i.e. his spell book. That won't in the given ambush scenario, but it is a lot better than the sorcerer, who can be really screwed if he has chosen the wrong spell for his list of spells known; he has to live with it two levels. That being said, I actually prefer to play sorcerers. First, they are a bit easier to play; no wondering what to prepare today, no casting sidelong glances at the DM to see if that was a smirk he made just after I said I was going to prepare command undead. Second, I hate the mechanics of Vancian magic. I just think they're dumb, and that taints my experience with wizards just a little bit.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-16-05, 01:09 PM	One of the things about wizards being seen as more powerful is the fact that they can get any spell they want. Sure, by the rules, it costs 100gp per spell level past the two freebies, but how much gold can you spend to get a sorceror spell? Plus, there's another piece of info here: The favored soul is a spontaneous version of the cleric, and it gets different abilities. The spirit shaman is a spontaneous version of a druid and it gets unique features. the Sorceror is a spontaneous version of a wizard, but it has nothing to make it truly unique. However, really this argument is overtly fine, in my opinion. The sorceror would be considered overpowered if the cleric and druid didn't exist, and the DM enforced the wizard spell cost. (As in, you copy from another spellbook? 100gp per level. Copy from a scroll? 100 gp per level. Only the two spells you gain at level up are free, ANY other spell aquisition costs money.) However, I am officially the ONLY DM I know that actually does enforce the limit. (And even so, I do grant sorcerors a few perks: A bonus feat every 5 levels (Any meta-magic or draconic feat), and the general up in skill points and skills that I've given pretty much every class, as I think that everybody gains way too few skill points.)
Venom of the Yuan Ti 05-16-05, 01:55 PM	Actually i impost the limit too, but wizards in my group (ie Ook/Squeek) never seem to scribe spells in. I have only DMed fora sorcerour once and had intended to give him perks, but then a little incedant that Ook will remember happened, for those who werent there it looked like this. In 5ft wide corrador :fight!: :mage: :twitch: Sorcerour: "FIREBALL!"
Votan 05-16-05, 01:59 PM	actually, arcaner preparation let you prepare YOUR KNOWN SORCERER SPELLS, not spells form a spellbook. the only reason to do this was to avoid the slow metamagic suffered by sorcerers. now, to respond to the poster who argued for sorcerers: i don't belive sorcerers are useless, but I think that wizards are somewhat mroe powerful. your first level example is not very useful, because first level characters are so limited in thier spell slots that the sorcerer's having one moe spell slot is a major advantage. but at, say, level 10, this is less of an issue. now, let's look at the pros and cons of each class: Wizards: able to learn more spells with money (IIRC, just 50 GP per spell level.) able to use quicken spell gets bonus feats gets higher level spells than a sorcerer at odd levels gets earlier access to PrCs sorcerers theoretically have these advantages: more psells per day more flexibility ability to learn spells of every school (i'm assuming all wizards are specialists, becasue i can't imagine otherwise) let's examine them one at a time: "sorcerers are flexible": this is somewhat true, but only for low-level effects. remeber that a sorcerer gets 3rd level spells at 6th, not 5th, for example. and even then, when he gest 2nd or 3rd level spells at 4th or 6th, he only knows one. he has the felbility to use that one spell three times. the sixth level wizard, however, ALSO HAS 3 THIRD LEVEL SPELLS, and knows AT LEAST 4 to choose from. "sorcerers have more spells per day": in combat, what's most important is generally your highest level spells; a sorcerer never has more of the highest level spells thanh wizards do. how many fireballs can we cast? at 5th level, wizard beats sorcerer 2 to 0. at sixth level, they tie 3 to 3. finally, because of the extra spell levle, the total number of spell slots a sorcerer gets is not much higher than the wizards on odd levels. assuming specialization, 4th level: Sor 9 Wiz 7 5th level: Sor 10 Wiz 9 and, assuming a 15 spellcasting stat boostd to 16 at 4th level, the real numbers are Sor 12 Wiz 12. in other words, a 5th level wizard has the same number of spells per day as a sorcerer, and they're higher level. at high levels, the sorcerer finally does get significantly more spells per day, but by then, running out of spells is a rare event. all that matters is the number of high level spells available, and the sorcerer is not better than a wizard there. thus, the sorcerers advantage in in low-levle spells. thopse ar ethe lvels of speels for which he knows enough spells to have genuine flexibility, and has enough spell slots to use them. there are some things for which sorcerers are bette rthan wizards, like buffing a large party or shooting off magic missile after magic missile, or at high levels, fireball after fireball. but the wizard has access to more low level utilitily spells voer time, but fewer at a moment's notice. i'd call that a tie. meanwhile, the wizard has higher level spells and more high-level spells known. Specialist wizards are a confusing case to me and make comparison harder. However, there is absolutely no doubt that they are uniformly superior to generalists in every respect. The choice of whaty school(s) to drop is painful and you always lose something nice but the extra spells to cast and spells known is an overwhelming advantage. Now as to 4th level sorcerer vs. 4th level specialist wizards (with 16 casting stat): * sorcerers have 7 1st and 4 2nd level spells. * specialist wizard have 5 1st and 4 2nd level spells. * generalist wizards have 4 1st and 3 2nd level spells. So, yes, the specialist wizard does tend to have a competitive number of spells. At high levels this will make him a lot better. At low levels there is the constant concern about picking the right spells. At later levels this will not matter overly much as the wizard will have enough spells memorized to make getting caught unprepared much less likely. Where the wizard does have a big advantage that is rarely noticed is in prestige classes. Look at the primary full casting prestige classes in the complete series of books plus core: Loremaster (2 knowledge skilsl at 10) Wizard 7, Sorcerer 17 Sacred Exorcist [Knowledge (the planes) 10 ranks, Dismissal as a spell] Wizard 9, Sorcerer 17 Divine Oracle [Knowledge(Religion) 8 ranks] Wizard 5, Sorcerer 13 Mage of the Arcane Order -- requires an extra feat for sorcerers Alienist [Knowledge(the Planes) 8 ranks] Wizard 5, Sorcerer 13 Geometer [no major benefit to a sorcerer and lots of ranks in skills needed] Archmage [Can be done for a sorcerer at 14th level but seriously restriucts spell selection as 5 of the highest 6 spells known all must come from different schools] Wildmage [Only one that seems to favor both sorcerers and wizards equally well]
The Simbul 05-16-05, 02:00 PM	One of the things about wizards being seen as more powerful is the fact that they can get any spell they want. Sure, by the rules, it costs 100gp per spell level past the two freebies, but how much gold can you spend to get a sorceror spell? You buy a scroll of the given obscure and/or limited-use spell for the 1 out of 100 adventures when you actually need it and no other spell in your repertoire will suffice. If it is a non-combat spell then you pay an NPC to cast it for you. Alternatively at higher levels you use a Limited Wish to emulate it. When you add in the gold expenditures a Wizard needs to keep extra scrolls, staffs, and wands on hand for additional uses of spells for ambushes and suprise encounters (which a Sorcerer is less likely to need feat), and the XP they spend on crafting those items, then in the end the costs in XP and Gold for the Sorcerer employig the above technices and virtually non-existant by comparison. Plus, there's another piece of info here: The favored soul is a spontaneous version of the cleric, and it gets different abilities. The spirit shaman is a spontaneous version of a druid and it gets unique features. the Sorceror is a spontaneous version of a wizard, but it has nothing to make it truly unique. That is because either; A) The favored soul and shaman are ridiculously overpowered B) The Sorcerer is underpowered Given that the generic class Spellcaster from UA has a Sorcerer's spellcasting abilities and has bonus feats, I am willing to go with the latter of the two assumptions. Of course, WoTC doesnt really like to admit mistakes unless they are going to actually profit from it, thus we most likely wont's see any fixes to the Sorcerer unless they come from third-party publications or one of the four horseman of the Apocalypse; 4th edition D&D.
Horatius 05-16-05, 02:09 PM	There's another issue: magic items. The wizard can easily match the sorcerer's 'repeat spell' advantage while retaining his/her flexibility by creating a staff or wand of his/her key offensive spells. These are the ones he/she is most likely to want to cast repeatedly. The wizard's extra feats allow him/her to select the necessary Item Creation feats without sacrificing whatever Spell Focus or Metamagic feats he/she wants. The same can be accomplished with Scribe Scroll, though it's perhaps more cumbersome. Also, the wizard can afford to learn spells that are only useful for item creation without diminishing his/her adventuring spell list. Despite all this I like the sorcerer better, but not because it's a more powerful class.
Sinon 05-16-05, 02:48 PM	Then there's the exact same argument in reverse. The sorcerer can make up for his lack of versatility with a carefully selected supply of scrolls and other magic items.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-16-05, 03:07 PM	using wands of attack spells tends to give you low caster levels and DCs, which really restricts the effectivesness of you attacks. a 9th levle wizard or sorc without any special feats or magic items does 9d6 damage, DC 16 a normal wand of fireball does 5d6, DC 14
Horatius 05-16-05, 03:23 PM	Sinon: True, but it's harder to make them himself. Fuzzy_Logic: Hence the power of the staff! From the SRD: Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance. Furthermore, a staff can hold a spell of any level, unlike a wand, which is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. The minimum caster level of a staff is 8th. Standard staffs are described below.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-16-05, 03:57 PM	wow. despite having played a spellcaster PC from 2nd to 15th level, i've never actually gotten a staff in treasure. have they always worked that way, or only in 3.5?
Kolo 05-16-05, 06:20 PM	That part about the Staff's CL= your own CL is purely 3.5, as are the Metamagic rods which allows the wizard to (in a slightly limited fashion) emulate the sorcerer's ability to metamagic on the fly. So now you have a wizard that can repeat cast useful combat spells at will at good DC's, can add metamagic to them when he feels it is needed and knows quite a lot of spells. On the other hand, you also have a sorcerer who can already do this except he doesn't have a lot of known spells and has a lot of money in his pocket to spend on stuff which the wizard has already spent in trying to emulate the sorcerer. Most of the time you'll want to expand your repertoire with wands/scrolls, in order to emulate the wizard's widespread knowledge. which of these two you want is entirely a matter of opinion at this point. Which class do you want to emulate with money? :P
LordHell 05-16-05, 06:49 PM	Im primarily a Wizard player, but I've been playing a Sorcerer lately. Here is a brief take on what I think, Ill go into detail later: Odd Levels (3,5,7,9 etc) the Wizard definately outshines the Sorcerer Even Levels (2,4,6,8) They're about on par. My first impression as playing the Sorcerer were two things: The lack of skills. This hurts. Sure the sorcerer may be able to rack up enough skills to be good at diplomatic situations, but the shere number of skills the Wizard gets makes him a really useful class in and out of combat. Knowledge() skills are great for identifying monsters weaknesses, and so are other skills such as appraise. Not only can you max these skills out, but you can max out your important combat skills such as Spellcraft and Concentration. Being the Sorcerer and having the lack of skillpoints to spend was very noticable. No Scribe Scroll at lvl 1. This feat is a life saver. For 1XP and 125. gp and some downtime, your 1st level Wizard can have enough 1st spells to easily get him through the day. Scribing say 5 grease scrolls and 5 ray of enfeeblement scrolls costs 10XP and 125GP and is WELL worth it. Whoever said this feat wasn't that great was wrong. Playing the Sorcerer, your combat ability is very good - particulary unprepared combat. But boy your spell selection is poor. It really hurts from playing a Wizard and moving over to a Sorcerer and only having TWO first level spells to chose. I find even though my Sorcerer has more spells per day, he has less use for them. Say I chose Mage Armour and Sleep as my first spells, then keep running into undead - there is NOTHING I can do save BUY scrolls. The Wizard on the other hand can flee, rest, and come back with the appropriate spells. Or he can scribe a whole fistfull of scrolls and be prepared for anything anyway. The more spells he gets in his book, the more he can scribe. I find the main limiting factor on the Wizard to be GOLD. You can never get enough gold to have everything you want. That's when finding the enemy Wizards spellbook can be a real treat. Overall the Wizard is a bit more fiddly. It requires a bit more practice and a bit more hard work than the Sorcerer, but it is very rewarding. I find the Sorcerer more of a care-free spellcaster - there is less to consider and worry about (apart from when you're chosing your spells!) but I find the limited number of spells known to be a sever limitation. I havn't played a Sorcerer to a high level yet, so I dont know how things change for a Sorcerer as you get a higher level. I know the Wizard just keeps on getting better and better though.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-16-05, 09:31 PM	I am not an advid spellcaster player, but as I read the forums, I see everyone saying the wizard demolishes the Sorc in every way, and I was wondering why. Is it because they get more powerful spells? Thanks ahead of time! ~:P~ You really have touched on a sensitive issue that has been on the classes board for some time now (right now, it seems mostly about warlocks and fighters.) If you want the bulk of this arguement, I suggest going into my varient sorcerer link in my sig and scrollilng down to post five, past the feats. There is a list of all of the "discussion" threads that have cropped up over the months. Peruse through them at your leisure. Of course, if you still find the sorcerer underpowered, there are over a 100 varients also listed (in addition to the one I have in the thread.)
Dr. Awkward 05-16-05, 09:51 PM	One thing I did like about the Sorcerer however at low levels was his/her ability to use a bow rather than a crossbow. Last time I checked, bows were still martial weapons, and sorcerers only get simple. Unless you're an elf.
LordHell 05-16-05, 09:58 PM	Last time I checked, bows were still martial weapons, and sorcerers only get simple. Unless you're an elf. LOL you're right, my Sorcerer is an Elf. Scratch that *slaps forehead*
solbergb 05-17-05, 12:32 PM	You can have only one Contingency spell in place at a time. (Note: this is different from the Contingency Item described in Complete Arcane.) That makes it almost useless for a sorcerer to place this spell on his spells-known list. It has a range of personal, so you can't use it to buff a friend. When you are only ever going to know 3 sixth-level spells, would you have one this limited? Um..no. A sorcerer casts it. He uses it every fight He re-casts it after the fight. A sorcerer needs only one good spell to make contingent to make it FAR more useful for him than the wizard. It's one of the top three sorcerer spells (the other being limited wish and polymorph any object) that almost all pick at some point.
solbergb 05-17-05, 12:47 PM	I have played both wiz and sorc. The only levels I'd say a wiz is clearly superior is level 3 and maybe level 5. At level 3 the "extra tier" of spells gives the wiz the same numer of slots and some very potent options (glitterdust, web). Wiz and sorc do the same thing in level 1-2. Buy or scribe a bunch of L1 scrolls (wiz to get more slots, sorc to get more options). Most of the time they use their slots, on long days or weird days they use scrolls. The sorc can burn four scrolls a day and not come close to how much the wiz spends on his spellbook. If you can't buy low level scrolls...the sorc suffers, but then the wiz suffers too since he's pretty much limited to lucky finds and his level bumps to improve his spellbook. At level 5 the sorc may not quite have enough "oomph" in his spell list to make up for the 3rd tier wiz spells, plus again not much of a slot advantage yet on a wizard. By level 7+, the sorc has enough raw power to do without the higher tier spells for a level. He's also got enough spells known to cover most of the arcane bases without consumables, for most situations. It just might not be as elegant (eg, shattering a door open instead of Knocking it open) The above poster who talked about flexiblity (diminishing from the moment a wiz decides on his spells, and with each spell cast) has it right. A sorc does what he does until his last top tier spell is gone. Then he loses a few options, but retains most of them right up until his entire rack is exhausted. Until he runs out of juice he behaves more like a comic book superhero than a D&D mage...his power is on tap, always there, always any of his options available. Unless a sorc has NO spells REMOTELY applicable, he can contribute until the last slot is gone. A wiz gets less and less flexible with each spell cast. He has less options on any given day than a sorc just because he can't choose to cast fireball 6 times or fly 6 times should the situation demand one or the other. He also can't choose to heighten the phantasmal killer on the fly to defeat a globe of invuln or whatever. Metamagic that synergizes with spells helps a sorc a lot more than a wiz. Wizards benefit more from still spell (cause it works in grapples...std action or less casting is the only thing allowed in a grapple) and of course quicken. Metamagic rods help, but they aren't free. Pearls of power help you re-use the slots you have, esp low level slots, but they don't let you cover a base you didn't think of in the morning. Empty slots help, but only if you get 15 minutes to prepare. So..a sorcerer has his abilities almost all the time, and has 100% of his capability. A wizard has a greater potential set of abilities than a sorc, but in any given moment he has a small fraction of his total capability, and this capability diminishes with every spell cast. He is still VERY powerful and can grasp a higher portion of his capability with good item selection (pearls of power and metamagic rods in particular). But there is a fragility to it that makes wizards more innately cautious about using spells, beyond routine buffing. Because of this, wizards and sorcerers BEHAVE differently in play. Wizards are always nervious about casting a key spell, and they are much more affected by an unusually good save or a situation that renders their spells in their head useless. Running away is in fact what they do in those situations. Not so good if the bad guys are doing the ritual to end the world. Sorcerers treat casting spells like breathing, they're far more likely to toss a spell even if it is overkill, or perhaps not 100% needed. If someone saves, they just cast it until it sticks, or switch to a different category of spell. If the situation is not what they expected, they can find the one spell that works and hammer it over and over. It is a very rare sorcerer, level 7+, who can't find something good to do in almost any tight spot. And most know their weaknesses and get items (or consumables) to cover the rare thing they can't do. (or at least work with the other casters to make sure the bases are covered...resist energy, for example, can be done by almost any spellcaster, the arcane guy doesn't need to do it...especially if he's providing, say, circle of prot evil for everybody freeing up divine slots...)