?s about casting carcane spells and Extra Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

?s about casting carcane spells and Extra Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
02-06-07, 01:22 AM I've got 2 questions:

1) Can a caster cast spells with somatic components while wielding a weapon and a shield or a two handed weapon? Since classes like Cleric and Duskblade often wear heavy shields and a weapon, I have always imagined that while casting, they'd maybe tuck a weapon under their armpits or something or holds the two-handed weapon in one hand while the other hand does the gesturing. I just wanted to make sure caster can cast like this or else it makes NO sense at all for clerics and duskblades to have proficiency in shields and weaponry

2) The feat Extra Spell let's you learn ANY spell of the appropriate level, even one not on your class's spell list or even a spell that is different in type (like taking cleric spells as a sorcerer) right?

Bonus question: Wraithstrike can be used with Persistent metamagic right?
zae
02-06-07, 02:28 AM 1) I'm not entirely sure. I've heard talk about people taking a hand off a two-handed weapon to cast just fine, but I believe that when holding two one-handed things, you'd have to actually drop one of them. I'm not certain though.

2) The way it works is this: You know the spell. However, it is not added to your class list. If the spell does not appear on your class list, you still cannot cast it. So a Wizard cannot gain a Cure spell, and a Duskblade cannot gain Wraithstrike. That being said, Sorcerers are a special case. For the Sorcerer, under Spells, it says "Sorcerers primarily draw their spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list." It then goes on to say that Sorcerers sometimes learn other, unusual spells.

So most casters cannot use this to gain spells not on their list (rather, they can learn them but still not cast them), but Sorcerers can.
DarkRhystar
02-06-07, 02:32 AM 1) Can a caster cast spells with somatic components while wielding a weapon and a shield or a two handed weapon?

Two-handed weapon, yes.
Shield and weapon requires the Somatic Weaponry feat (Complete Mage).

2) The feat Extra Spell let's you learn ANY spell of the appropriate level, even one not on your class's spell list or even a spell that is different in type (like taking cleric spells as a sorcerer) right?

Zae got it.

Bonus question: Wraithstrike can be used with Persistent metamagic right?

Don't go there.
FrostHammer
02-06-07, 03:03 AM So most casters cannot use this to gain spells not on their list (rather, they can learn them but still not cast them), but Sorcerers can.

I call bull with your reasoning. If someone has *learned* a spell, then he knows how to cast it. It's that simple. The only question is which spells you can learn. There is no separation of "learning" and "on your spell list." To me they are one and the same.

Dark: Why not go there? I'm thinking an Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight combination that can cast 8 levels spells would do really well with a Persistent Wraithstrike, combined with Arcane Strike and maybe Power attack, and you can have a really mean dragon-slaying machine! A Duskblade would not be able to Persistent the Wraithstrike, but then, he channels awesome spells too. With Arcane Disciple the DB can be channeling Slay Living (4 in one round, and with Wraithstrike they're very likely to hit). The Eldritch Knight could also go for a Charger build if you have any extra feats to spare. Leap Attack and don't be afraid to pump into Power Attack since you're hitting touch AC now.
travellersside
02-06-07, 04:29 AM I call bull with your reasoning. If someone has *learned* a spell, then he knows how to cast it. It's that simple. The only question is which spells you can learn. There is no separation of "learning" and "on your spell list." To me they are one and the same.

Well, that particular line of reasoning is, IIRC, from the FAQ, due to the Sage having judged it to be that way. It doesn't mean that many people agree with it, and the Sage doesn't have the best reputation...
Really, it seems to be a nerf without them having to issue errata.
risner
02-07-07, 09:23 PM 1) Can a caster cast spells with somatic components while wielding a weapon and a shield or a two handed weapon?

2) The feat Extra Spell let's you learn ANY spell of the appropriate level, even one not on your class's spell list or even a spell that is different in type (like taking cleric spells as a sorcerer) right?

3) Wraithstrike can be used with Persistent metamagic right?

1) If you have a free hand (Sword and Light Shield) you can swap the weapon to your shield hand, cast the spell, swap back. If you have a two handed weapon, you can hold in one hand, cast, and grip with two. If you have a sword and heavy shield, you have to drop the weapon to cast or store it (move action) and draw the weapon next round or use quickdraw to draw the weapon after casting.

2) No, since it does not state which list it can only come from your spell list. This is backed up by RAW (which limits you to preparing spells on your list), the FAQ, and logic.

3) Yes. Should you be able to? No. I'd make it dismissable "Duration: 1 round (D)" to solve the problems.

Additional info: Learning a spell is a separate action to being able to prepare it. They are absolutely not the same. Look up the Known Spell in the glossary, you will find for prepared casters you need to have learned the spell (Extra Spell or make the spell craft check) AND have the spell copied into your spell book AND be able to prepare the spell to have it a known spell. Extra Spell does not address being able to prepare the spell. Ever single ability that does something outside the scope of the limits in a base class must explicitly say how they modify base rules (core rules) and since Extra Spell was written after Expanded Knowledge (which does a similar thing and does say "from any spell list") then you have only one option: to conclude that Extra Spell doesn't allow you pull spells from other lists.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 02-06-07, 01:22 AM	I've got 2 questions: 1) Can a caster cast spells with somatic components while wielding a weapon and a shield or a two handed weapon? Since classes like Cleric and Duskblade often wear heavy shields and a weapon, I have always imagined that while casting, they'd maybe tuck a weapon under their armpits or something or holds the two-handed weapon in one hand while the other hand does the gesturing. I just wanted to make sure caster can cast like this or else it makes NO sense at all for clerics and duskblades to have proficiency in shields and weaponry 2) The feat Extra Spell let's you learn ANY spell of the appropriate level, even one not on your class's spell list or even a spell that is different in type (like taking cleric spells as a sorcerer) right? Bonus question: Wraithstrike can be used with Persistent metamagic right?
zae 02-06-07, 02:28 AM	1) I'm not entirely sure. I've heard talk about people taking a hand off a two-handed weapon to cast just fine, but I believe that when holding two one-handed things, you'd have to actually drop one of them. I'm not certain though. 2) The way it works is this: You know the spell. However, it is not added to your class list. If the spell does not appear on your class list, you still cannot cast it. So a Wizard cannot gain a Cure spell, and a Duskblade cannot gain Wraithstrike. That being said, Sorcerers are a special case. For the Sorcerer, under Spells, it says "Sorcerers primarily draw their spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list." It then goes on to say that Sorcerers sometimes learn other, unusual spells. So most casters cannot use this to gain spells not on their list (rather, they can learn them but still not cast them), but Sorcerers can.
DarkRhystar 02-06-07, 02:32 AM	1) Can a caster cast spells with somatic components while wielding a weapon and a shield or a two handed weapon? Two-handed weapon, yes. Shield and weapon requires the Somatic Weaponry feat (Complete Mage). 2) The feat Extra Spell let's you learn ANY spell of the appropriate level, even one not on your class's spell list or even a spell that is different in type (like taking cleric spells as a sorcerer) right? Zae got it. Bonus question: Wraithstrike can be used with Persistent metamagic right? Don't go there.
FrostHammer 02-06-07, 03:03 AM	So most casters cannot use this to gain spells not on their list (rather, they can learn them but still not cast them), but Sorcerers can. I call bull with your reasoning. If someone has learned a spell, then he knows how to cast it. It's that simple. The only question is which spells you can learn. There is no separation of "learning" and "on your spell list." To me they are one and the same. Dark: Why not go there? I'm thinking an Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight combination that can cast 8 levels spells would do really well with a Persistent Wraithstrike, combined with Arcane Strike and maybe Power attack, and you can have a really mean dragon-slaying machine! A Duskblade would not be able to Persistent the Wraithstrike, but then, he channels awesome spells too. With Arcane Disciple the DB can be channeling Slay Living (4 in one round, and with Wraithstrike they're very likely to hit). The Eldritch Knight could also go for a Charger build if you have any extra feats to spare. Leap Attack and don't be afraid to pump into Power Attack since you're hitting touch AC now.
travellersside 02-06-07, 04:29 AM	I call bull with your reasoning. If someone has learned a spell, then he knows how to cast it. It's that simple. The only question is which spells you can learn. There is no separation of "learning" and "on your spell list." To me they are one and the same. Well, that particular line of reasoning is, IIRC, from the FAQ, due to the Sage having judged it to be that way. It doesn't mean that many people agree with it, and the Sage doesn't have the best reputation... Really, it seems to be a nerf without them having to issue errata.
risner 02-07-07, 09:23 PM	1) Can a caster cast spells with somatic components while wielding a weapon and a shield or a two handed weapon? 2) The feat Extra Spell let's you learn ANY spell of the appropriate level, even one not on your class's spell list or even a spell that is different in type (like taking cleric spells as a sorcerer) right? 3) Wraithstrike can be used with Persistent metamagic right? 1) If you have a free hand (Sword and Light Shield) you can swap the weapon to your shield hand, cast the spell, swap back. If you have a two handed weapon, you can hold in one hand, cast, and grip with two. If you have a sword and heavy shield, you have to drop the weapon to cast or store it (move action) and draw the weapon next round or use quickdraw to draw the weapon after casting. 2) No, since it does not state which list it can only come from your spell list. This is backed up by RAW (which limits you to preparing spells on your list), the FAQ, and logic. 3) Yes. Should you be able to? No. I'd make it dismissable "Duration: 1 round (D)" to solve the problems. Additional info: Learning a spell is a separate action to being able to prepare it. They are absolutely not the same. Look up the Known Spell in the glossary, you will find for prepared casters you need to have learned the spell (Extra Spell or make the spell craft check) AND have the spell copied into your spell book AND be able to prepare the spell to have it a known spell. Extra Spell does not address being able to prepare the spell. Ever single ability that does something outside the scope of the limits in a base class must explicitly say how they modify base rules (core rules) and since Extra Spell was written after Expanded Knowledge (which does a similar thing and does say "from any spell list") then you have only one option: to conclude that Extra Spell doesn't allow you pull spells from other lists.