Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vacerious 12-12-04, 12:29 AM	hello everyone, i really hate to complain, but i think that the bard gets royally screwed over when it comes to, well, about everything. or at least the one i play as. i multiclassed w/ a 5th lvl cleric/4th lvl. bard in the "City of the Spider Queen" campaign. Compared to the rest of my party, my bard levels are useless (figuring it consists of a barbarian, rogue, and fighter.) the cleric levels are occasionally useful, but even w/ that, i pretty much sit in the back and heal, lookin like a complete sissy the entire time. can anybody give me any hope/combat advice for this class combo?
BlaineTog 12-12-04, 12:35 AM	i really hate to complain, but i think that the bard gets royally screwed over when it comes to, well, about everything.No, he's not. You just didn't build him well. i multiclassedThat there's your problem. Here's a piece of advice: NEVER MULTICLASS CASTERS. (Written big to emphasize how important it is).
Arcane Guyver 12-12-04, 12:38 AM	Use Bardic Music the first round of a combat situation, then use buffing magic & healing spells. Realize that those Bard levels just sort of solidify your position as the main support for the rest of the party.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 12-12-04, 02:15 AM	I would have to agree that you didn't build him well. In the campaign I am in, my DM has stated that if anyone says Brads suck, he will punch them in the face. A bard is a pure class. The multicalss is already built in, so adding more than 2 levels diffuses what the bard can do. First, multiclassing with a non-fighter based class reduces your Base Attack. Second, your spellcasting ability is reduced by multi-classing. You do not get the higher level spells, nor do you get the penetration totals that you should have at that level. Mystic Theuge would be your closest option, but that is usually reserved for Wizard/Cleric combo for a significant volume of spells. Third, your skill points are reduced unless you multi-class with a rogue. Fourth, Crafting feats do not add your total spellcasting levels to determine the highest magic item you can make. So A 9th level character cannot make +3 items if a bard 5 and cleric 4 and you will not be the minimum caster level of 8 to make the magic item even if you do have Bull's Strength (as an example). Ultimately, you feel useless because you do not have direction for your character. If you didn't want to be the healer, why did you take cleric levels in the first place? If you wanted to be the buff specialist, why did you multi-class? If you wanted to be able to do more in combat, why did you reduce your base attack? See the problem? In my group, my bard is the leader. I use Knowledge skills to discover weakness in monsters and inform the party. I buff the players with Good Hope (a good buff spell) and Haste. We let the creatures come to us, rather than charge (NPCs are a different story). I negociate with intellegent NPCs and creatures so we don't have to fight them at all (Bluff, Diplomacy, and sometimes Intimidate). And if we do have to fight, I pull out the proper weapon (I get to act first with the knowledge I have about the monsters weaknesses) and attack using Arcane Strike. This feat trully makes the Bard a melee combat forerunner. A total of +1 to hit and +1d4 damage per Arcane spell level sacrificed. So a first level spell adds +1 to hit and +1d4 damage. A fifth level spell adds +5 to hit and +5d4 per level. This effect lasts until the end of the round. Last gaming session I did 87 points of damage in a round, while our fighter did 90. But if you wanted to be ranged combat specialist instead, did you take the proper feat to do that? Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot and maybe Improved Critical? How about Longbow proficiency or a level of Fighter or Ranger? The level of Fighter gets you armor proficiencies so you can go for Battle Caster so you can cast spells in heavier armor, or Ranger for the skill points to dump into Spot? The question, ultimately, is what were you designing? If you don't know, then that is why you feel you don't have what you were looking for.
Kingside_Bishop 12-12-04, 02:35 AM	No, he's not. You just didn't build him well. Here's a piece of advice: NEVER MULTICLASS CASTERS. (Written big to emphasize how important it is).That's a terribly gross oversimplification (the part about the never multiclassing casters, the part about not being built well is totally on target. Good job.) Here's the thing about playing a bard: they're inherently passive in combat. They don't have good combat abilities or attack spells built into the class, so unless you put something in there to make you more combat friendly, you'll end up buffing and healing. This is sucky because a straight cleric is better at this (and better at combat in a more general sense). So, the best advice I can give you is to redesign your character, and add something that gives him a little more offense. How about Bard 2 / Fighter 2 / Cleric 5? For feats, take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack. This will allow you to consistantly trip and disarm every enemy within 15 ft of you. Use a Heavy Mithril Shield and a Mithril Chain Shirt, and max out Hide and Move Silently. Now, you've got a good stealth companion for the rogue that can be great fun in a fight, with some good support capabilities. From here on out, take bard levels and max out Use Magic Device and Perform as fast as you can, and spend any leftover on social skills. At least, that's what I'd do. It seems you're in a combat heavy campaign, a setting in which bards don't thrive too well. You might just want to redesign your character to be a combat/support type, and scrap the bard levels altogether.
BlaineTog 12-12-04, 03:00 AM	That's a terribly gross oversimplificationOf course. However, it's exactly what someone who goes Cleric 5/Bard 4 needs to hear. Here's the thing about playing a bard: they're inherently passive in combat. They don't have good combat abilities or attack spells built into the class, so unless you put something in there to make you more combat friendly, you'll end up buffing and healing.Hardly. Bards do very well at buffery, but they have Illusions and Enchantments in their repetoire, as well as Fascinate and Suggestion (which completelly PWN, at least out of combat). This will allow you to consistantly trip and disarm every enemy within 15 ft of you.I assume you alude to the whip. Whirlwind Attack is useless with the whip, by the by. No threatened area.
Jell_Moo 12-12-04, 03:01 AM	So, the best advice I can give you is to redesign your character, and add something that gives him a little more offense. How about Bard 2 / Fighter 2 / Cleric 5? For feats, take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack. This will allow you to consistantly trip and disarm every enemy within 15 ft of you. Use a Heavy Mithril Shield and a Mithril Chain Shirt, and max out Hide and Move Silently. Now, you've got a good stealth companion for the rogue that can be great fun in a fight, with some good support capabilities. From here on out, take bard levels and max out Use Magic Device and Perform as fast as you can, and spend any leftover on social skills. At least, that's what I'd do. It seems you're in a combat heavy campaign, a setting in which bards don't thrive too well. You might just want to redesign your character to be a combat/support type, and scrap the bard levels altogether. Not to sound disrespectful, but that is an absolutely horrid build. The synergy is bad, and the levels are wasteful. You'd be a 9th level character with a +6 BAB trying to trip and disarm people. You have feats that require a minimum of a 13 Int and a 13 Dex, 2 spellcasting stats (Cha and Wis), if you wish to make use of Trips you need Str, and if you're in melee you need Con. This is a victim of MAD to the utmost. The problem with the build is that it's trying to do way too much. The two levels of Bard don't accomplish anything on their own, and actually complicate the build a great deal. Cleric and Bard are two things that shouldn't be used together. They are simply too different, and mutually exclusive. There are a few PrCs that can help the situation (The Divine Prankster comes to mind), but for the most part, you simply don't want to mix the two. A straight Bard, if built properly can be a combat powerhouse. Bards have exclellent buffs which can be very sweet. A Bard with a spiked chain could play a fun game of keepaway, and an archer Bard is always nice.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 12-12-04, 03:17 AM	The problem with the build is that it's trying to do way too much. The two levels of Bard don't accomplish anything on their own, and actually complicate the build a great deal. Cleric and Bard are two things that shouldn't be used together. They are simply too different, and mutually exclusive. There are a few PrCs that can help the situation (The Divine Prankster comes to mind), but for the most part, you simply don't want to mix the two. I would even go as far and say, other than a fighter based class, any other class would weaken the Bard. Rogue/Cleric would lower base attack and spells. The cleric would lower skills points further as well. Paladin at least uses Charisma for save bonus and Smite Evil. Fighter gives extra feats and Intimidate. Ranger adds skills points and more class skills. Barbarian only really adds hit points. The Bard should be played straight. It already has the multiclass built in. Adding other classes, makes you less of a generalist; rather than more of one.
Arcane Guyver 12-12-04, 03:18 AM	I'm trying to decide whether going Mystic Theurge would help this build out, if only a little. I mean, the base attack is already screwed, he probably shouldn't be upfront anyways due to lack of armor.
fractal 12-12-04, 03:23 AM	i multiclassed w/ a 5th lvl cleric/4th lvl. bard in the "City of the Spider Queen" campaign. I'd say you're pretty much toast. At this point, though, you may not have much to lose from taking Mystic Theurge. You won't have many hp, but your BAB isn't going to be good enough to fight anyway, and at least your spellcasting won't get any worse. On an unrelated note, I'm running a Gestalt campaign with a Cleric/Bard, and the character seems to be doing okay.
Vacerious 12-12-04, 04:04 AM	hey, my DM has given me an idea, but there's a slight dilemma. he has offered that a cleric of olidamarra would basically convert my bard levels to cleric levels via miracle. but this presents a problem: where am i gonna find a cleric of olidamarra?
argorond 12-12-04, 04:09 AM	Sigh you dont build characters like 4bard/5cleric when you could be 9 cleric and still have aspects of bard! This why there is prestige classes, look at races of stone - Divine prankster and you are cleric bard without being sucky in both, you are great bard with bard things.
glimeral 12-12-04, 04:12 AM	You mean a 17th level cleric of olidammara. For starters try dropping hints in the local pubs and hangouts that you want to join their order as i dont think they would convert you to just any cleric. It will get their attention. They will probably start tailing you and gathering info about your motives. Do a few quests in their name. Pilfer some other religions artifacts (aka temple raider style) and then ask around saying you want to "donate" the items to the church of olidamara. Second, miracle is gonna cost the spellcaster so they are probably going to require a service from you. Since you will most likely be changing deities anyway and requiring atonement to become a cleric of olidamarra, they will probably assign a more difficult quest for the atonement and cast miracle and atonement on you at the same time or you might have to work for them for several levels before they cast the miracle (unless you pay for it that is). If you did some of the other things i suggested, like pilfering items from other churches for olidamara, they might waive some of these requirements altogether. Dont think they wont be keeping tabs on you though. They are a crafty lot those guys and dont always announce themselves.
HighlandsTraveller 12-12-04, 10:36 AM	Beg your DM to let you retroactively change in 2 levels of cleric for 2 levels of mystic theurge. This wouldn't be a complete rewrite, its still the same character basically, and it wouldn't be totally useless. Its still pretty weak but with a lot of fighter types in the party you could buff them pretty well and make some good items for your group. Short of that do your best to die very quickly so you can start a new character. Isn't CotSQ set in FR? I seem to recall a cleric domain that gives a charisma bonus once a day in FR, and that could make 1 lvl of cleric a possibility for roleplaying flavor. Short of that 1 level of fighter is the only bard multclass that makes any sense to me.
Shard of Suzail 12-12-04, 10:51 AM	We had a player who was a bard and then multiclassed with some cleric levels. It would have worked, if he had accepted what he was. Instead he tried playing it as a straight cleric, which was a shame, since he was no good at that and at times the players asked him to do his songs, which he refused to do "having moved on". Now he doesnt play at all, but all things considered, it isnt a great loss. The GM even tried offering him special healing songs and cool stuff that blended the two classes together, but the player simply refused to go with it. One thing that puzzles me is when players look at the bard and discount the healing abilities. I mean, you could play a bard who was religious and your heals would be quite useful, a reflection of "having clerical talents" without being a cleric. The two classes dont stack with regards to the healing and you end up being good at neither. Bard is a generalist class. It fills its role very well indeed and offers a good range of spells, lots of skills and some party abilities that are often in very high demand. However, because it does all this, it doesnt multiclass at all well with other casting classes. Fighter perhaps, rogue perhaps, but caster classes no, unless the player is willing to take a very specific and repetetive support role (in which case it is very rewarding, though somewhat boring). I have a lot of respect for the bard, as a class. It combines a good range of abilities with some effective flavour and feel. It also has more than enough prestige options and can hold its own at high levels as a straight class, if thats what the player seeks. If you are going to multiclass a bard, then its with a splash of fighter or something similar just to get some feats. In small doses it has a good payoff, but when you are effectively a half bard half something else, then the cracks begin to show. My advice for you is to either accept your role as "the low powered cleric that has the bard courage song" or to make a quick about turn and get a new character. Mystic theurge and other stop gaps will seem attractive, but since the theurge cuts out abilities in favour of spells, its a bad deal.
Mirikon 12-12-04, 11:11 AM	Yeah, I'd say questing is in order to get the temple to turn you to a full cleric. Because as is,... well... it isn't the worst build I've seen, but it is nowhere near anything I'd call good. Bard is one of those classes that really ought to be taken straight, possibly with some PrCs tossed in. They are great support characters, being able to contribute some to combat, bardic music, arcane magic, healing magic, and the 'spokesman' in towns. And frankly, even at low levels bards are nice. That +1 to hit and to damage is always good. And there are some nice bard PrCs out there, if you go and find them. In an undead heavy campaign, Dirgesinger is especially nice. And the bard's countersong ability instantly makes encounters with Harpies or Crypt Chanters or any other creature with musical attacks much less deadly.
glimeral 12-12-04, 12:41 PM	I had another thought which is even better than what your DM suggested. The 4th level psionic power psychic reformation. This is basically a psychic power that works to the effect of an undo level up feature. If you have enough XP, you can effectively rewrite an entire 20th level character to have different classes, feats, skills etc and still be a 20th level character providing they have 1000 spare XP sitting around and arent shy to loose it. This power was introduced into the game for people like you who have become dissatisfied with their character and want to change their idea without having to reroll a new character and cause the DM to have to find a way to bring the new character into the game (and in the middle of a dungeon that can be a difficult feat in and of itself). It is also easier to find a 7th level (or above) psionic character with access to psychic reformation than it is to find a 17th level cleric with access to miracle. Not only is it easier, it is much, much cheaper if you decide to suck it up and pay for the powers manifesting..... And, unlike the miracle idea your DM came up with, this one will change skills, feats, everything and can effectively rewrite your character from 1st level up if both you and the manifester have enough XP, and unlike your DMs miracle idea, you arent restricted to trading in your bard levels for cleric... you can trade ALL of your levels for any 9 levels of your choice if you pay 450Xp... Thats not too much of a price to pay to have a more enjoyable character trust me, especially at this point. Sure you level up slightly behind the rest of the party, but if the spellcaster starts pumping out magical items or casting spells with costly XP components, they will quickly fall even further behind yourself.
Kingside_Bishop 12-12-04, 08:23 PM	I'd just like to apologize for that cleric/bard. It was 1:00 am my time, and I had about six Mountain Dews in me. ...finals week.
GRAOUH !!! 12-12-04, 08:45 PM	I had another thought which is even better than what your DM suggested. The 4th level psionic power psychic reformation. This is basically a psychic power that works to the effect of an undo level up feature. If you have enough XP, you can effectively rewrite an entire 20th level character to have different classes, feats, skills etc and still be a 20th level character providing they have 1000 spare XP sitting around and arent shy to loose it. This power was introduced into the game for people like you who have become dissatisfied with their character and want to change their idea without having to reroll a new character and cause the DM to have to find a way to bring the new character into the game (and in the middle of a dungeon that can be a difficult feat in and of itself). It is also easier to find a 7th level (or above) psionic character with access to psychic reformation than it is to find a 17th level cleric with access to miracle. Not only is it easier, it is much, much cheaper if you decide to suck it up and pay for the powers manifesting..... And, unlike the miracle idea your DM came up with, this one will change skills, feats, everything and can effectively rewrite your character from 1st level up if both you and the manifester have enough XP, and unlike your DMs miracle idea, you arent restricted to trading in your bard levels for cleric... you can trade ALL of your levels for any 9 levels of your choice if you pay 450Xp... Thats not too much of a price to pay to have a more enjoyable character trust me, especially at this point. Sure you level up slightly behind the rest of the party, but if the spellcaster starts pumping out magical items or casting spells with costly XP components, they will quickly fall even further behind yourself. !!! From SRD Psychic Reformation Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 4 Display: Auditory, mental, and visual Manifesting Time: 10 minutes Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 7, XP; see text When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level. The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills. XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly. This power just allow to change skills, powers and feats choices. It can do nothing about spells, class levels or anything that is not a skill, afeat or a power…
hawktalisman 12-13-04, 06:00 AM	I have said it before, and I will say it again.......... Aid Another. Bard using song, lots of healing, and standing at the back using a spiked chain at reach, and with weapon finesse, only neading to hit AC 10 to either give an ally +2 to AC, or +2 to hit....... For the classes that are a little weak in combat, the aid another special combat action is massivly powerful, especialy at lower levels, and stacks with EVERYTHING, even other people using aid another. It requires no feats, runs off your second best stat if you take finesse, and is pretty reliable, yet most people forget that the option exists........
Zetakya 12-13-04, 06:38 AM	If you don't want to go the Spiked chain route, consider Weapon Finesse (Rapier, a class-proficient weapon), Combat Expertise & Improved Feint - Feint is arguably the Bards strongest combat tactic - and the Bard is certainly the master of misdirection! With the ability to fight defensively to prevent attackers from Flanking your friends and your presence in combat adding to the opportunities for flanking manoevers, especially with a Rogue in the party, the Bard adds a lot to the effectiveness of the melee potion of the party.
Jell_Moo 12-13-04, 08:08 AM	Feinting in combat is useless for anybody who does not have Sneak Attack. And it isn't all that great for them either. There are so many other things you could do in a round other than Feinting (a move action with Improved Feint), and then attacking with a single attack. Bards gain nothing from Feinting in combat. All it does is take away your opponents Dex bonus to AC for a single attack. The Bard is much better off using BArdic Music or casting a spell than he is doing this.
Zetakya 12-13-04, 08:31 AM	Um... read the second paragraph I wrote again; it's not just about the effectiveness of the Bard, but also the effectiveness of the whole Party. In addition, both Bardic music and Bard spells are severely limited in uses/day, and in the case of Bard spells tend mainly to be utility spells. You can't simply say "just cast a spell or sing" when these factors are taken into account. If there's no need for you to be doing either, then engaging in combat aids the rest of your party. It makes it harder for the enemy to Flank your front line combatants, makes it more difficult for the enemy to get near to your rear-line casters, and adds more opportunities for the Rogue and front line to gain flanking status against the enemy. With Combat Expertise you can act in a very defensive manner while still being engaged in combat to give these bonuses to your Party, and with feint you can maintain a reasonable level of threat to the enemy without risking yourself. A high Dexterity and Finesse round that out nicely. Bards are a support class; the Bards combat abilities support the dedicated combatants just as much as their spells and songs support the Party. You set a Rogue, Fighter or Barbarian into a flank position that he wouldn't have otherwise had and the fight is over that much quicker. So sure, the Bard gains nothing from Feinting, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise etc... but the Party certainly does. :)
CaoSlayer 12-13-04, 09:17 AM	okey.. there is one little way to fix it... isnt character optimization stuff but still there are prcs that will go fine. if you own Song and silence, the virtuoso can raise +1 caster level per class level and dont says that must be arcane (I think so), the requirements are weak and so you can be the equivalent of a mythic teurge just with cleric/bard. with races of faerun the spellsinger will also apply. with book of exalted deeds if you are good, the troubador of the stars also can improve both your divine spell casting and your bard´s songs. finally the weakest solution would be the warchanter from complete warrior, allowing you to be a better attacker and providing strongs songs... but the spellcasting will be negated. I dont have saw yet complete arcane... still there is a bardic prc that improves bard´s spellcasting a lot of.
Soulmage 12-13-04, 09:23 AM	As others have mentioned. Its not the bard that's the problem, its your build. From a power/effectiveness standpoint, multiclassing the bard is generally always a bad idea except when the other class is: A fighter type A PrC that offers synergies with the bard's abilities Don't pay attention to that fearky 3 way multiclass the earlier poster offered. That is truly a recipe for suckdom.
CaoSlayer 12-13-04, 09:44 AM	quoting myself: Multiclassing Adding bards levels to another class: Bards mix well with lots of classes, specially the warrior ones. The ideal levels for adding bard levels are 4 or 8; this is because the 3/4 bab progresion, so by example a fighter 16 /bard 4 will get 19 BAB, and for loosing this and two feats, he will get the lower level songs, inspire competence, and with 14 charisma, 3 level 1 spells and 1 level 2. Better Ref and Will saves and lots of sp (specially if he get bard at level 1). for level 8, he will lose another bab and acess to greater spec. but he will get up to level 3 spells and more songs including inspire courage +2. Usually the best combo it is when you are planning in using light armor (Archers, barbarian or ranger) because then you can use all your spells in armor. Adding bard levels to spell casters it is a very diferent thing, they will be very hurted in their caster levels, and also they wouldnt get advantage of the light armor casting of the bard, maybe with clerics and druids, the songs will help to the summons. and the rogue it is the perfect synergy with the bard; getting levels to the level 8 bard, you only will do 6d6 sneak damage, but with the blink spell, all your attacks will be sneaks, specially deadly with the TWF style. Adding another class levels to a bard: Bards have a pure caster level, so adding levels of another class hurts this badly; my recomendation it is to add up to 2 or 4 levels of another class, this will asure to get level 6 spells and also in the case of adding just 2 levels, all the songs but inspire courage +4. For getting 4 attacks in a round, you will need to get 4 levels in a full BAB class, the best options for this are the ranger and barbarian becase they need to wear light armor and archers warriors for the spec. And about spellcasting classes, the concept it is similar, the best thing it is to get 1 level for the basic features or 3 for level 2 spells, the lost of level 6 spells isnt worth getting level 3 spells. Clerics and druids are good because they are able to wear armor, and about sorcerer and wizard, in my opinion, the wizard it is a best option, the extra feat it is very useful for a bard and being able to have a spell book for preparing just in case spells it is also very handy. In the other hand, 1 level of sorcerer offers you the chance of having true strike and shield 4 times per day, althrough the armor faillure ruins this idea. and for rogue, see adobe, having some levels in rogue will give you things like evation and sneak attack and the most important thing: Traps sense. Get one level about each 4 levels of bard and spend all sp in search and D. Device, this way you will do the main work of a rogue without loosing your bardic role.
Jell_Moo 12-13-04, 06:56 PM	Originally posted by Zetakya Um... read the second paragraph I wrote again; it's not just about the effectiveness of the Bard, but also the effectiveness of the whole Party. In addition, both Bardic music and Bard spells are severely limited in uses/day, and in the case of Bard spells tend mainly to be utility spells. You can't simply say "just cast a spell or sing" when these factors are taken into account. Bard spells are not limited to utility, far from it. They have some of the best Buff spells, a plethora of attack spells, and healing spells to boot. Bardic Music, is icing on the cake. When you combine spells and music, Bards have a lot. Add in UMD and they have more. After about 4th level, they probably won't run out of spells/music. And the best part of music is that it still allows the Bard to do other things while he uses it. If there's no need for you to be doing either, then engaging in combat aids the rest of your party. It makes it harder for the enemy to Flank your front line combatants, makes it more difficult for the enemy to get near to your rear-line casters, and adds more opportunities for the Rogue and front line to gain flanking status against the enemy. [b] Engaging in melee combat is a bad idea with a Bard. Low hit points and a less than amazing AC make it a difficult prospect. A combination of buffing the party and sniping at the enemy with a bow proves much more effective, and lowers the risk to your Bard. [b]With Combat Expertise you can act in a very defensive manner while still being engaged in combat to give these bonuses to your Party, and with feint you can maintain a reasonable level of threat to the enemy without risking yourself. A high Dexterity and Finesse round that out nicely. Combat Expertise does one very bad thing to the Bard. It means he can't hit anything. Bards with their medium BAB and MADish stat requirements simply can't afford to use Combat Expertise and still connect. Also, the Bard's low hit points come to play here. Area Effect spells become killer in this situation, even his Good Reflex save won't save him from taking "some" damage. Also note that being in the thick of things allows the enemy to use touch spells against the Bard with greater ease, and the majority of those require a Fort save, the bane of Bards. And once again, Feinting in combat accomplishes nothing for the Bard. If the Bard succesfully feints his opponent, the Bard is the only one who benefits. The Rogue can't use it to make a sneak attack. A Feinted opponent loses his Dex to AC only against the guy that Feinted him. The BArd has so many better options that he should bever, ever do this. Bards are a support class; the Bards combat abilities support the dedicated combatants just as much as their spells and songs support the Party. You set a Rogue, Fighter or Barbarian into a flank position that he wouldn't have otherwise had and the fight is over that much quicker. Bards are a support class I agree. They just aren't particularly well suited to front line combat. He lacks survivability, and doesn't accomplish much. If you need Flankings to occur, the Fighter or Cleric are much better suited to the task. A Bard who casts Invisibility on the Rogue or Heroism on the Fighter has accomplished more, and taken far less risk. A Bard that uses Inspire Courage and lobs some arrows at the enemy has accomplished more and taken far less risk. So sure, the Bard gains nothing from Feinting, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise etc... but the Party certainly does. The party gains more if the Bard is still alive at the end of the fight, and if he's used his abilites better. Combat Expertise requires the Bard put himself in melee and then assures he doesn't hit. Fighting Defensively does something very similar. Feinting does absolutely nothing. The Bard lacks the hit points, AC, ability to hit, and ability to do damage to be effective in melee. By staying out of melee and using a combination of buff spells on his allies, attack spells on his enemies, bardic music, and well placed arrows, the Bard does more and is alive at the end of the battle.