Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spencerthomas 01-11-07, 06:57 PM	The idea of this thread is to start thinking not of 4.0 or something silly like that but rather if you were to create a world or start a new game what would you consider as good 'Core' options? which classes would you make obsolete? My Core Options: Barbarian ( phb ) Warblade ( tob ) Psy Warrior ( xph ) Crusader ( tob ) Cleric ( phb ) Archivist ( HoH ) Wizard ( phb ) Sorc ( phb ) Psion ( xph ) Rogue ( phb ) Beguiler?Bard? ( phb2/phb ) Monk?Swordsage? ( phb/tob ) Druid w/ phb2 shapechange varient ( phb ) hmm, think thats about it...but i know i'm missing a good one somewhere. -sc
claypigeons 01-11-07, 07:06 PM	The idea of this thread is to start thinking not of 4.0 or something silly like that but rather if you were to create a world or start a new game what would you consider as good 'Core' options? which classes would you make obsolete? My Core Options: Barbarian Warblade Psy Warrior Crusader Cleric Archivist Wizard Sorc Psion Rogue Beguiler?Bard? Monk?Swordsage? Druid ( phb2 shapechange varient ) hmm, think thats about it...but i know i'm missing a good one somewhere. Swordsage Crusader Warblade Beguiler Duskblade Cleric Druid Rogue Ranger Scout Truenamer Binder Wizard Sorcerer Favored Soul Barbarian Psion Wilder Psy-War Warlock hmm...that about does it. As a note, any classes that I have left out were left out because they A) suck a horrendously huge amount of something that sucks a lot (spell thief, CW samurai), or B) they dont work thematically ('asian' based classes). (Or I dont have the book, as is the case with incarnum)
navar100 01-11-07, 07:36 PM	Once again I see Paladin gets the screw over. At least have the Unearthed Arcana Prestige Class Paladin. Its Smite Evil is practically useless, but it synergizes well with Power Attack. It's one or two levels behind on other various abilities that improve with level than core Paladin (Lay On Hands, Bonded Mount), but it makes up for that. If you go in as a 4/1 fighter/cleric, you have lots of warrior feats core paladins don't, including weapon specialization. You can choose to lump Mounted Combat as a dump feat if you aren't into mounted fighting. Either way play a human for that really important bonus feat. If you go in as 2/3 fighter/cleric, you still have a decent number of feats (only one less with no weapon specialization) plus better spellcasting than core paladin. In both cases you still have some cleric spellcasting with spontaneous curing to make up for a slightly weakened Lay On Hands.
spencerthomas 01-11-07, 07:48 PM	So you'd add... Palidin w/ UA varient? good catch on the scout. you need someone that is a woodland person other than the druid. Truenamer Binder Good fluff stuffs, but i think those would be my first 'splat' book stuff. :) have you guys had good luck with the duskblade, do you think that the martial adepts kindof make this class less special and obsolete? -sc
Artifact 01-11-07, 07:52 PM	In my setting I've decided on the following 'arrangement': Core Classes Barbarian Cleric Druid Fighter Rogue Sorcerer As written in the PH. Core Prestige Classes Bard Paladin Ranger These are as presented in Unearthed Arcana. Unavailable Classes Monk Wizard I've did this as an effort to capture the feel of early D&D games. And yes, I know the sorcerer wasn't a class before 3e ;). I guess this make me a 'minimalist'. :)
claypigeons 01-11-07, 07:53 PM	have you guys had good luck with the duskblade, do you think that the martial adepts kindof make this class less special and obsolete? No. Duskblades have their own niche. They are gish from the start. Adepts are different. A totally new flavor.
Greg K 01-11-07, 07:57 PM	1. Barbarian: option Barbarian hunter (UA) 2. Cleric: spontaneous Divine Casting (UA), smaller spell lists based on domains, lower the BAB and hit die, remove the Good Fortitude Save, give divine grace 3. Druid: shapechange variant (PHB2) reduce hit die, BAB. 4. Fighter: option Thug (PHB/UA) 5. Holy Warrior 6. Knight: Hong's Knight 7. OA Shaman as the Monk Class; option divine monk 8. Psychic (Green Ronin) 9. Rogue: options: Martial Rogue (UA), Wilderness Rogue (UA) 10. Shaman (Green Ronin) 11. Sorcerer: give metamagic feats every 5 levels to give players a reason to stay with the class; option Battle Sorcerer (UA) 12. Swashbuckler: rewrite to be more flexible 13. Warrior Monk: Martial artist that uses Incarnum-like mechanic to channel ki. 14. Witch (Green Ronin) 15. Wizard: spellpoint w/ vitalizing option. 16. Wizard Specialist: Variant Specialist Abilities (UA); additional specialists from 2e (Alchemist, Artificer, Geometer, Dimensionalist, Elementalist, Shadow Mage, Song Mage)
Greg K 01-11-07, 07:58 PM	have you guys had good luck with the duskblade, do you think that the martial adepts kindof make this class less special and obsolete? -sc I prefer the battle sorcerer for a gish
Mitchell 01-12-07, 12:34 AM	1) Bard 2) Cleric 3) Duskblade* 3) Druid 4) Fighter 5) Monk** 6) Paladin 7) Psion*** 8) Psychic warrior**** 8) Ranger 9) Rogue 10) Wizard *Fills the core arcane/melee hybrid role as rangers and paladins fill the hybrid divine/melee role. **I could live without it, as it is really a more asia-centric class whereas the core game falls more into a eurocentric groove. ***Replaces the sorcerer and puts psionics firmly within core. ****Fills the hybrid psionic/melee role just as paladins and rangers fill the divine/melee role.
Krusk 01-12-07, 02:28 AM	In any game I dm, these are the base classes allowed. Sometimes players with good enough reasons/backstory are allowed to play one of the others, though generally not. Archivist Barbarian Bard Cleric- Must have diety Druid (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10891274#post10891274) Fighter Knight Palidin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=729837) -no diety required. Without spells. Essentially the same, a few small things modified, and credit given. Ranger-No diety required Rogue Scout Swashbuckler Shifter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754488) Sorcerer Wizard Beguiler duskblade and hexblade all are allowed more eaily than the other non "core" classes. Any class with a code of conduct including cleric druid palidin and some rangers must write it down befor the game starts. Both the player and I must agree that it makes sense.
Sphyre 01-12-07, 03:00 AM	I think it might be neat if Wizards takes the direction of szatany's ultimate classes, where the base classes gain advancement choices. Supplements could add more choices than new classes. This not only would make it more balanced because you're balancing everything against other options available to someone at that level, but would also make it easier to specialize your characters without prestige classes. I personally don't like prestige classes, and do like the plethora of core classes because they overlap in many spots, but have their own specializations.
rphair 01-12-07, 10:46 AM	I like to allow any and all classes into my game. I've played under a very restrictive DM, and it always chafed to have to go "back to Core-only" to play in his game. The only class I have ever disallowed for players is the Frenzied Berzerker PrC, and that's only because having the chance to flip out and kill your friends is just frustrating to everyone else at the table. That being said, if I had to create a set of "new" Core classes, I guess it'd look like this: Barbarian Bard Beguiler Cleric Crusader Druid* Duskblade Fighter** Monk*** Ninja**** Paladin Psion Psychic Warrior Ranger Rogue Samurai***** Scout Sorceror****** Swordsage Warblade Warlock Wizard *I'd use the Shapechange variant, but having played one, I think it could benefit from feats and gear that works with it as well, such as what Wild Shape has going for it. By itself, it's kind of weak at low levels, in my experience. Also, I see no reason to take away your animal companion, either. There's fantastic synergy in having an animal companion to help flank with you, which helps make up for the fact that you can't hit things as easily as a Fighter or other primary melee-character. **Obviously, the ol' Fighter needs some work. Everyone's got fixes, but the one thing I'd do for sure is give him the Warblade's free weapon feats (with the ability to change weapons each day), and probably hand those out on non-Bonus Feat levels where possible to give a little more incentive to continue with the class. That way, instead of making Supreme Weapon Specialization a feat, it can be an 18th-level class ability (though you may still want it to only apply to a single weapon in that case). ***Monks don't really belong in Eurocentric fantasy, but they're pretty cool and a lot of fun to play, so keep 'em! ****Ditto for Ninjas, but everyone seems to like 'em, so toss 'em in, too! *****I guess if we're going to have Shaolin monks and Shinobi, we may as well have Samurai, too! ******Sorcerors need some kind of ability throughout the class to provide an incentive to continue leveling as a Sorceror without prestige classing. A bonus reserve feat or metamagic feat every 5 levels would be awesome (crafting stuff doesn't really fit with the sorceror image, in my mind). If I had to, that's how I'd run it, but like I said, I like to be a very open DM, and there are very, very few things that I ever disallow. The way I like to present it to my players is, "Okay, let's give it a shot. If I really think that the class itself is breaking the game, then we'll talk and come up with something else for you to play. But only if the other players agree or are not having fun as a direct result of the class' abilities."
Pyke_Moonshadow 01-12-07, 11:17 AM	Base classes in my games Barbarian Bard Binder* Cleric Druid Fighter Monk Paladin Psion* Psychic Warrior* Ranger Rogue Scout Sorceror Soulknife* Warlock* Wizard * I have one player that plays these classes, the rest of them stick to mainly core only for whatever reasons. Classes I allow but no one has ever played. Erudite Hexblade Incarnate Shadowcaster Soulborn Spirit Shaman Swordsage Totemist Truenamer Wilder And for the record, I do not house rule any of the abilites though I do have a few homebrew base classes I also use. If I bar a class it is do to either a view of the class being superflous or being something I definately don't like mechanically/flavor-wise.
Stado 01-12-07, 11:25 AM	If were only talking WotC core books and supplements here: Archivist Barbarian Bard Beguiler Binder Cleric Druid (Shapechange variant; PHB2) Erudite Fighter Hexblade Paladin (Freedom, Slaughter, and Tyranny variants; UA) Psion Psychic Warrior Ranger (Spell-less variant; CW) Rogue Scout Sorcerer (+Battle Sorcerer variant; UA) Swashbuckler Totemist Warlock Wilder Wizard (Specialist variants; UA) However, if we're also talking classes found on these boards and/or in third party supplements, I'd add/replace: Adherent (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=419058) (Talen Lee's; replaces Paladin) Barbarian (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=681572) (K's; replaces standard Barbarian) Death Master (Dragon Compendium) Hunter (White Wolf Publishing's World of WarCraft RPG; replaces Ranger) Rogue (White Wolf Publishing's World of WarCraft RPG; replaces standard Rogue) Runemaster (White Wolf Publishing's More Magic & Mayhem; in place of Monk) Sangehirn (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=680652) (Dr_Draco's) Society Mind (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7311764) (Dreamscarred Press' Untapped Potential) Soulknife (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310984) (BlainTog's; in place of standard Soulknife) Summoner (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=646241) (K's)
Crashy75 01-12-07, 11:31 AM	13. Warrior Monk: Martial artist that uses Incarnum-like mechanic to channel ki. That looks very interesting. I'd love a link. :D
tarkin 01-12-07, 11:39 AM	Honestly, for me the choices are simpler: 1) Fighter type 2) Caster type 3) Skill type 4) Special ability type ======== I would make everything else either "variant sub-classes" or prestige classes. More like the generic system they listed in Unearthed Arcana.
cthascott 01-13-07, 12:45 AM	Barbarian Cleric Druid(Aspect of Nature variant in UA) Warrior from UA Paladin with UA variants Rogue Battle Sorceror Wizard Hexblade(as I've redone it) Favored Soul(as I've redone it) Warlock Totemist Psion Pyschic Warrior Binder Incarnate Swordsage Sublime Way Marshal variant by Tempest Stormwind
vinny_rex 01-13-07, 01:22 AM	it would be cool if there were rules for building your own base class. Not just "with DM approval" but say, an offical guideline on how to do it. Like if you had this, you culd not add this (heavy spellcasting could not be with a good BAB). I dunno, just a thought.
Sphyre 01-13-07, 03:52 AM	it would be cool if there were rules for building your own base class. Not just "with DM approval" but say, an offical guideline on how to do it. Like if you had this, you culd not add this (heavy spellcasting could not be with a good BAB). I dunno, just a thought. Then you get rid of the stereotypes. Like wizards who choose to have a good fort save as opposed to having a good will save :tongue: Not that I see anything wrong with that ;)
spencerthomas 01-13-07, 12:27 PM	They have the beginnings of those rules in the Unearthed Arcana book. They have 3 'base' classes of 'fighter', 'skilled guy', and 'caster'. you then build your character from them...like either divine or arcane, ect. When you get feats and such you can pickup class features like sneak attack and such. but the list is small. expending that list would be an interesting project to get rolling... -sc
Crashy75 01-13-07, 01:23 PM	Guess I'll add mine (most in the conceptual stage) 1. Fighter (Altered to have a maneuver progression) 2. Berserker (Altered Barbarian with a maneuver progression) 3. Rogue (Altered with a maneuver progression) 4. Explorer (Rogue like with special abilities related to dealing with the unknown) 5. Gadgeteer (Inventor class) 7. Templar (Crusader/Paladin variant for most alignments) 8. Priest (think cloistered cleric from UA but with nerfed spells and more special abilities) 9. Ranger (Altered with a maneuver progression) 10. Martial Artist (needs a better name but 'monk' is too specific- Altered monk with a maneuver progression) 11. Mystic (variant druid with a whole ton of changes) 12. Wizard (nerfed spells and more special abilities) 13. Sorcerer (nerfed spells and more special abilities)
Crashy75 01-13-07, 01:24 PM	They have the beginnings of those rules in the Unearthed Arcana book. They have 3 'base' classes of 'fighter', 'skilled guy', and 'caster'. you then build your character from them...like either divine or arcane, ect. When you get feats and such you can pickup class features like sneak attack and such. but the list is small. expending that list would be an interesting project to get rolling... -sc There is a project like that somewhere on the UA boards.
Realms of Chaos 01-13-07, 02:51 PM	As what I consider to be a strange voice of reason (which is especially strange coming from me), as the only real difference between core classes and other base classes is that core classes are allowed more consistantly than other classes, why not just make a list of classes that you would be reluctant to allow? that list would accomplish the same thing and also account for supplements not yet printed (as base classes change much more often than core classes and that seems a bit wrong)
navar100 01-13-07, 03:33 PM	So you'd add... Palidin w/ UA varient? -sc On a good day I'd say the Prestige Paladin is better than the core Paladin because the fighter feats do mean something. Granted, you don't have to take levels in fighter. Any Full Bab class can be taken for 4 levels with one level of cleric to get you in at 6th level, but I think fighter is the best way to go. A human 1st level fighter can have Spirited Charge. Paladins are holy warriors, but with the standard feat progression, the core Paladin doesn't feel like a good combatant to me. He has good defense with Lay On Hands and Divine Grace. His few spells are good for buffs., but he can't do much other than "I attack". At least with those fighter feats, including 1st and 3rd level it's 6 feats for a human 5 for non-human going 4/1 figther/cleric, you have decent stuff. You can have Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Power Attack if use a two handed weapon, Divine Feat if take a level of cleric in the interim if using sword and shield. I'd probably do Power Attack and Cleave and take my Divine Feat at 6th level when I'm a 1st level Prestige Paladin. Power Attack synergizes very well with Spirited Charge. Even better with a lance. That's big time Paladinesque womping. I'm not impressed with Smite, core or Prestige. It's best for synergizing with Power Attack. I wasn't impressed with Prestige Bard or Prestige Ranger, but then again I don't care for bards and have never played a ranger. 3.5 ranger looks fine to me, though.
Arcane Guyver 01-13-07, 04:02 PM	I got two lists of classes, one for Eberron and one otherwise. I'm irritated with some of the core classes, but I'd rather just use them and be consistent with what is printed. "Fun" Games - I limit it to just the PHB plus the Warlock. This is usually enough to emulate most archetypes, and it's not too overwhelming for the newbies (which these "fun" games are generally for). Eberron - I figure there's a "tough" class in each role (one that is just difficult to pull off well, be it from poor mechanics or otherwise) and an "easy" class (hence the Dragon Shaman's inclusion). Combat Barbarian Fighter Monk Paladin Psychic Warrior Magic Psion Sorcerer Warlock Wilder Wizard Stealth Bard Ninja Ranger Rogue Soulknife Support Archivist Artificer Cleric Dragon Shaman Druid
Izodor_Shadowcaster 01-13-07, 04:09 PM	Okey these are the classes I would like to see Sorcerer (with psion mechanics) Wizard Cleric/Druid unified class Incarnate Binder Bard (but with Truenaming-mechanics) Fighter/Barbarian Rogue
periscope 01-13-07, 05:56 PM	Check out this paladin and tell me it shouldn't be core http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=729837
Pyke_Moonshadow 01-16-07, 07:46 AM	Check out this paladin and tell me it shouldn't be core http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=729837 It shouldn't be core. :D
Treantmonklvl20 01-16-07, 08:26 AM	Fighter Rogue Wizard Cleric
mkill 01-16-07, 08:50 AM	I don't want to spoil the party, but there is an important issue to consider here, and that is page count. While some classes don't take up much space, only their class description, such as the barbarian, others consume a lot more. Remember that the spells chapter runs from page 196 to 303 in the 3.5 ed PHB. That's 1/3 of the volume. And 4th edition would certainly not be a much thicker book. Adding classes that mostly use existing material, such as the Duskblade, wouldn't be much of an issue. But if you want to include any new systems, such as psionics, incarnum, or the ToB stuff, something else has to go in a radical cut.
SlatzGrubnik 01-16-07, 10:23 AM	In my campaigns, i'll usually allow anything.. we usually play just to play.. nobody in our group really min/maxes at all.. if someone wants to play something im not familiar with, i make sure they present it to me the week before, and i'll use that time to familiarize myself with it... I mostly just want to play D&D, have fun, and not worry about what's 'broken' and what's not.. it's a lot less fun when you're complaining about all that :P