A arguement on Ninja [Archive] - Wizards Community

A arguement on Ninja [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
abutler
01-22-07, 12:37 PM This arguement came up during our last game
i am playing a ninja
i currently using two weapon fighting and dual strike
i use ghost step as a swift then charge and make my 2 attacks from dual strike
do i make both as sneak attacks due to dual strike
according to complete adventure and ask wizards
the ghost step functions as greater invisibility for 1 round it does not say as invisibility the spell so does this mean i am inivisible for a both attacks as sneak attacks

the group says i do

dm was ****** cause he didn't think i should but everyone agreed it does not say i become visible after attacking

what is everyone elses ruling on this
SiouLubb
01-22-07, 12:44 PM You get the SS damage on both. The Ghost step is most similar to greater invisibility. You are invisible until the beginning of your next round, no matter how many times you attack or don't attack. The DnD FAQ has a ruling on this, just search for "ninja".
Puca
01-22-07, 12:44 PM Sudden Strike requires the opponent to be denied his dex. Under normal circumstances, an opponent is denied his dex if he cant see you. Ghost Step then allows you to apply Sudden Strike damage to every successful attack you make that round, including both attacks from TWF, as well as iterative attacks, and AoOs.

The Ghost-Step ability doesnt reference the second-level Invisibility spell at all. It says youre invisible for one round, and thats exactly what it is supposed to do.
ToxicWiz
01-22-07, 12:46 PM These people know what they're talking about obviously. I'd say you could. take a look at that FAQ if you can find it.

Have fun :)
Mogofeiden
01-22-07, 12:51 PM One of my players runs a ninja, we've both agreed that Ghost Step fuctions as swift invisibility AND NOT as swift improved invisibility. It's far more fair and balanced that way.

You may be happy now but wait until your DM starts using your tricks, you'll be sorry then.

swift improved invisibility with a 2nd level ability I don't think so.

Regardless, all your attacks are Sudden Strike attacks for the round in which you attack after ghost step.
The_Shaman
01-22-07, 12:54 PM Actually, a lot of people commenting on the ninja's strengths read it exactly this way: as an improved invisibility. It sounds great, but by the time you can get a whole lot of SA dice a lot of creatures can see you anyway. Plus, sudden strike is a bit of a bummer compared to sneak attack, so I'm not sure it's so overpowered.
Nephlite
01-22-07, 01:14 PM One of my players runs a ninja, we've both agreed that Ghost Step fuctions as swift invisibility AND NOT as swift improved invisibility. It's far more fair and balanced that way.

Not fair to the ninja who only has a limited amount/day.

You may be happy now but wait until your DM starts using your tricks, you'll be sorry then.

swift improved invisibility with a 2nd level ability I don't think so.

Regardless, all your attacks are Sudden Strike attacks for the round in which you attack after ghost step.
Actually, yes, it is better than swift improved invisibility for 1 eround. It is Swift Invisibility the status ala Invisib\e stalker for 1 round.

GThe difference is a spell can be dispelled/counterspelled: you can't counterspell or dispel Ghost Step. It is supernatural.
Mogofeiden
01-22-07, 01:54 PM I'll tell you why it is not unfair because it would be quite easy for a wizard to multiclass to get Ghost Step. Now, at high levels might not make much of a difference but a low levels it makes all the difference.

I'm pretty sure there's a reason Wizards don't put this issue out of it's misery but they should.

As has been pointed out Sudden strike is not as good as Sneak attack and IMO anyone who plays a charging full attacking ninja isn't playing it properly.
Puca
01-22-07, 02:16 PM There is no reason to change this ability.
It is fine as it is.
CrazyMarv
01-22-07, 02:37 PM You are invisible for one round. That's what the ability does. It doesn't mention anything about becoming visible after attacking or the ability acting like the Invisibility spell. If they wanted you to become visible after, they would just say it there, or they would say that the Ninja can cast Swift Invisibility as a spell-like ability by spending a Ki point or something.

Even with the Ghost Step ability, I still like a Rogue's sneak attack more. If you can Flank, you can Sneak Attack, even if the guy can see invisible creatures. Plus there is no limit on how often you can flank like there is for Ghost Step.

As has been pointed out Sudden strike is not as good as Sneak attack and IMO anyone who plays a charging full attacking ninja isn't playing it properly.

Why? Darting out of the shadows and dropping someone with a few quick strikes sounds a lot like a Ninja to me. Using weird ninja-magic to turn Invisible to do the same thing is a lot like something you'd expect to see a fantasy ninja do too......
The_Shaman
01-22-07, 02:50 PM A wizard dipping 2 levels into ninja is 2 levels further away from greater invisibility, which will often be just as effective. Granted, it can be dispelled, but come on, the fact that it lasts much longer has to count for something, too ;).
sigma999
01-22-07, 03:02 PM Poor guy... you were right, your DM was wrong. He should read the PHB more.
Ralvuimego
01-22-07, 04:38 PM Honestly, (and correct me if I'm wrong) I think your DM is right, but for the wrong reason. Regardless of how superior and powerful your invisibility is, Dual Strike only applies precision based damage (IE: Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike/Skirmish) once. You're still invisible after both attacks, because it's Greater invisibility, but it really isn't going to help you.

You could, however, full attack while invisible and still apply multiple Sudden Strikes (IIRC).

I'm going to have to wait until 10:00 before I can get anything conclusive, but I'm pretty sure this is right, I don't have CAdv on me right now.
Puca
01-22-07, 04:43 PM Good catch Ralvuimego. Dual Strike does allow precision-based damage on only one attack.
Mogofeiden
01-22-07, 06:06 PM The_Shaman
No doubt the spell Greater Invisibility has advantages. However, Ghost Stepping is a swift action, and one can get it at lv2. The other is a standard action and the earliest that one can get it is at lv7 or quickened at lv15. Also, although bards and assassins get Swift Invisibility in their spell list you'll notice that Wiz/Sor do not. Do I need to elaborate further?

I'll add to Ralvuimego point.

It's easier for the rogue to get the SA damage in melee (by flanking, which doesn't cost Ki points) than it is for the ninja to get SS in melee.

It's easier for the ninja to get his Sudden Strike in ranged (by ghost stepping) than it is for the rogue to get his SA ranged.

Instead of charging in (thus getting pinpointed) and getting Sudden Strike once, the ninja could've launched a full attack of ranged SS.
The_Shaman
01-22-07, 06:51 PM Heh, okay, okay. I think a wizard who takes 2 ninja levels is not making such a great move, but maybe it's just how I like to play it.
Puca
01-23-07, 10:33 AM The fact that a wizard might give up 2 caster levels and fall a full tier in his top-level spells behind other wizards to get Ghost Step, doesnt make Ghost Step broken. I dont even see how it is relevant.

It's easier for the rogue to get the SA damage in melee (by flanking, which doesn't cost Ki points) than it is for the ninja to get SS in melee.

It's easier for the ninja to get his Sudden Strike in ranged (by ghost stepping) than it is for the rogue to get his SA ranged.

Instead of charging in (thus getting pinpointed) and getting Sudden Strike once, the ninja could've launched a full attack of ranged SS.To me, it looks like a fairly balanced trade off. I see no reason why it needs to be nerfed so that the ninja loses his invisibility after attacking.
SiouLubb
01-23-07, 01:07 PM "How does the ghost step ability of the ninja (Complete Adventurer) work? Does the invisibility effect end if the ninja attacks, like with the invisibility spell, or does it continue after an attack, like with the greater invisibility
spell?"

"The invisibility granted by the ninja’s ghost step class feature lasts until the start of the ninja’s next turn, regardless of whether she attacks or not. Thus, it’s more like greater invisibility than like the normal invisibility spell."

DnD FAQ p 14.

Argument resolved. I swear I'm keeping this reference on file from now on.....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
abutler 01-22-07, 12:37 PM	This arguement came up during our last game i am playing a ninja i currently using two weapon fighting and dual strike i use ghost step as a swift then charge and make my 2 attacks from dual strike do i make both as sneak attacks due to dual strike according to complete adventure and ask wizards the ghost step functions as greater invisibility for 1 round it does not say as invisibility the spell so does this mean i am inivisible for a both attacks as sneak attacks the group says i do dm was ****** cause he didn't think i should but everyone agreed it does not say i become visible after attacking what is everyone elses ruling on this
SiouLubb 01-22-07, 12:44 PM	You get the SS damage on both. The Ghost step is most similar to greater invisibility. You are invisible until the beginning of your next round, no matter how many times you attack or don't attack. The DnD FAQ has a ruling on this, just search for "ninja".
Puca 01-22-07, 12:44 PM	Sudden Strike requires the opponent to be denied his dex. Under normal circumstances, an opponent is denied his dex if he cant see you. Ghost Step then allows you to apply Sudden Strike damage to every successful attack you make that round, including both attacks from TWF, as well as iterative attacks, and AoOs. The Ghost-Step ability doesnt reference the second-level Invisibility spell at all. It says youre invisible for one round, and thats exactly what it is supposed to do.
ToxicWiz 01-22-07, 12:46 PM	These people know what they're talking about obviously. I'd say you could. take a look at that FAQ if you can find it. Have fun :)
Mogofeiden 01-22-07, 12:51 PM	One of my players runs a ninja, we've both agreed that Ghost Step fuctions as swift invisibility AND NOT as swift improved invisibility. It's far more fair and balanced that way. You may be happy now but wait until your DM starts using your tricks, you'll be sorry then. swift improved invisibility with a 2nd level ability I don't think so. Regardless, all your attacks are Sudden Strike attacks for the round in which you attack after ghost step.
The_Shaman 01-22-07, 12:54 PM	Actually, a lot of people commenting on the ninja's strengths read it exactly this way: as an improved invisibility. It sounds great, but by the time you can get a whole lot of SA dice a lot of creatures can see you anyway. Plus, sudden strike is a bit of a bummer compared to sneak attack, so I'm not sure it's so overpowered.
Nephlite 01-22-07, 01:14 PM	One of my players runs a ninja, we've both agreed that Ghost Step fuctions as swift invisibility AND NOT as swift improved invisibility. It's far more fair and balanced that way. Not fair to the ninja who only has a limited amount/day. You may be happy now but wait until your DM starts using your tricks, you'll be sorry then. swift improved invisibility with a 2nd level ability I don't think so. Regardless, all your attacks are Sudden Strike attacks for the round in which you attack after ghost step. Actually, yes, it is better than swift improved invisibility for 1 eround. It is Swift Invisibility the status ala Invisib\e stalker for 1 round. GThe difference is a spell can be dispelled/counterspelled: you can't counterspell or dispel Ghost Step. It is supernatural.
Mogofeiden 01-22-07, 01:54 PM	I'll tell you why it is not unfair because it would be quite easy for a wizard to multiclass to get Ghost Step. Now, at high levels might not make much of a difference but a low levels it makes all the difference. I'm pretty sure there's a reason Wizards don't put this issue out of it's misery but they should. As has been pointed out Sudden strike is not as good as Sneak attack and IMO anyone who plays a charging full attacking ninja isn't playing it properly.
Puca 01-22-07, 02:16 PM	There is no reason to change this ability. It is fine as it is.
CrazyMarv 01-22-07, 02:37 PM	You are invisible for one round. That's what the ability does. It doesn't mention anything about becoming visible after attacking or the ability acting like the Invisibility spell. If they wanted you to become visible after, they would just say it there, or they would say that the Ninja can cast Swift Invisibility as a spell-like ability by spending a Ki point or something. Even with the Ghost Step ability, I still like a Rogue's sneak attack more. If you can Flank, you can Sneak Attack, even if the guy can see invisible creatures. Plus there is no limit on how often you can flank like there is for Ghost Step. As has been pointed out Sudden strike is not as good as Sneak attack and IMO anyone who plays a charging full attacking ninja isn't playing it properly. Why? Darting out of the shadows and dropping someone with a few quick strikes sounds a lot like a Ninja to me. Using weird ninja-magic to turn Invisible to do the same thing is a lot like something you'd expect to see a fantasy ninja do too......
The_Shaman 01-22-07, 02:50 PM	A wizard dipping 2 levels into ninja is 2 levels further away from greater invisibility, which will often be just as effective. Granted, it can be dispelled, but come on, the fact that it lasts much longer has to count for something, too ;).
sigma999 01-22-07, 03:02 PM	Poor guy... you were right, your DM was wrong. He should read the PHB more.
Ralvuimego 01-22-07, 04:38 PM	Honestly, (and correct me if I'm wrong) I think your DM is right, but for the wrong reason. Regardless of how superior and powerful your invisibility is, Dual Strike only applies precision based damage (IE: Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike/Skirmish) once. You're still invisible after both attacks, because it's Greater invisibility, but it really isn't going to help you. You could, however, full attack while invisible and still apply multiple Sudden Strikes (IIRC). I'm going to have to wait until 10:00 before I can get anything conclusive, but I'm pretty sure this is right, I don't have CAdv on me right now.
Puca 01-22-07, 04:43 PM	Good catch Ralvuimego. Dual Strike does allow precision-based damage on only one attack.
Mogofeiden 01-22-07, 06:06 PM	The_Shaman No doubt the spell Greater Invisibility has advantages. However, Ghost Stepping is a swift action, and one can get it at lv2. The other is a standard action and the earliest that one can get it is at lv7 or quickened at lv15. Also, although bards and assassins get Swift Invisibility in their spell list you'll notice that Wiz/Sor do not. Do I need to elaborate further? I'll add to Ralvuimego point. It's easier for the rogue to get the SA damage in melee (by flanking, which doesn't cost Ki points) than it is for the ninja to get SS in melee. It's easier for the ninja to get his Sudden Strike in ranged (by ghost stepping) than it is for the rogue to get his SA ranged. Instead of charging in (thus getting pinpointed) and getting Sudden Strike once, the ninja could've launched a full attack of ranged SS.
The_Shaman 01-22-07, 06:51 PM	Heh, okay, okay. I think a wizard who takes 2 ninja levels is not making such a great move, but maybe it's just how I like to play it.
Puca 01-23-07, 10:33 AM	The fact that a wizard might give up 2 caster levels and fall a full tier in his top-level spells behind other wizards to get Ghost Step, doesnt make Ghost Step broken. I dont even see how it is relevant. It's easier for the rogue to get the SA damage in melee (by flanking, which doesn't cost Ki points) than it is for the ninja to get SS in melee. It's easier for the ninja to get his Sudden Strike in ranged (by ghost stepping) than it is for the rogue to get his SA ranged. Instead of charging in (thus getting pinpointed) and getting Sudden Strike once, the ninja could've launched a full attack of ranged SS.To me, it looks like a fairly balanced trade off. I see no reason why it needs to be nerfed so that the ninja loses his invisibility after attacking.
SiouLubb 01-23-07, 01:07 PM	"How does the ghost step ability of the ninja (Complete Adventurer) work? Does the invisibility effect end if the ninja attacks, like with the invisibility spell, or does it continue after an attack, like with the greater invisibility spell?" "The invisibility granted by the ninja’s ghost step class feature lasts until the start of the ninja’s next turn, regardless of whether she attacks or not. Thus, it’s more like greater invisibility than like the normal invisibility spell." DnD FAQ p 14. Argument resolved. I swear I'm keeping this reference on file from now on.....