A balanced gish PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A balanced gish PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Totentanz
10-24-06, 02:46 AM My friends and I are running a campaign in which one of the players wanted to create a PrC that focused on casting in armor. The class is called the "Focused Caster," and doesn't do anything but allow someone to cast in armor. While the class itself isn't finished, the basics are below.

5 Level PrC

Requirements: Knowledge: Arcana (8 ranks), proficient in medium armor.

Worst BAB, d4 hit die, 2 SP, wizard skil list without knowledge skills.

4/5 Casting

Gets the ability to reduce arcane spell failure per item by 30% by 5th level. Starts at 10% at first and ramps up.

I am interested in hearing if people think this PrC is balanced. I would prefer to stay away from "OMG YouRE Stoop1d," line of things. Regardless of your opinion, try to give some concrete reasons, including examples to other similiar material if applicable. If you think it isn't balanced (in either direction), do you have any suggestions for fixing it?

Finally, if you are a DM, would you allow it in your game? If you are a player, would you take it given the opportunity?

I am going to avoid giving my opinion of the class because I don't want to influence the line of discussion. I'm also interested in hearing what the board has to say, rather than being involved myself.

If you need clarification about anything, just ask. Thanks in advance for your input.
Archangel62
10-24-06, 03:38 AM Could you space it out by level to give us a better ballpark. BTW, check complete mage for Abjurant Champion.
Eyeless Blond
10-24-06, 08:36 AM Or search for Knight Phantom, which basically gets Armored Casting at first level.
MerlintheTuna
10-24-06, 11:04 AM A gish can't take 5 more levels of bad BAB on top of his (at least) 3 levels of bad BAB from Wizard levels. Might I ask what's wrong with the usual Spellsword + Eldritch Knight combination?
Totentanz
10-24-06, 06:23 PM Maybe "gish" isn't the right descriptor for it. I think of it personally as a PrC intended to get primary arcane casters in armor. As for the other PrC's in existence, the player in question wanted the ability to wear armor with his character without losing many levels of casting. He created this PrC in the hopes of being able to wear armor and not lose much in the way of his casting ability. I cannot speak directly as to his opinion on Eldritch Knight or Spellsword, except that he didn't want to lose multiple levels to achieve the goal.

I'll attempt a quick breakdown before class starts:

1st level:10%
2nd level:15%
3rd level: 20%
4th level: 25%
5th level: 30%

I don't have Complete Mage, but I have been considering adding it to my collection.

My question is best framed thus: do you think one level of casting plus whatever feats/or multi-classing neccessary to get the armor prof is enough of a trade-off to get the armored casting?
Seerow
10-24-06, 07:13 PM Abjurant Champion lets you add class level to your Mage Armor and Shield Spells. So at 5th level your Greater Mage Armor will give +13 AC, the same as +5 Full Plate, withough max dex bonus and other such penalties. Shield is similar, though it doesn't have the same duration.

But yeah, bad BAB = Not a Gish Class. Really, just go with a dip into Spellsword, and get stuff like Twilight and Mithral on your armor. Twlight Mythral and 1 level of Spellsword already gets you -30% ASF, only 5% left to get rid of in Full Plate, I'm sure someone can find a way to get rid of that too.
WarDragon
10-24-06, 07:43 PM I would call this class highly underpowered. Compare it to Knight Phantom (light armor casting at first level), Spellsword (more ASF reduction plus Spell Channeling), or Runesmith (negates ASF completely at first level). At least give it full or 3/4 BAB, and maybe allow them to cast spells without a free hand, ala Somatic Weaponry.
RadicalTaoist
10-24-06, 09:44 PM Just take the Spellsword from CW. Less effort.
Seeker of Undeath
10-24-06, 10:25 PM I just thought I'd toss out another idea for grins. If you're building a gish, I imagine you'll probably throw in a level or two of fighter to kick things off. There's an alternate class feature in Complete Mage that lets fighters permanently sacrifice proficiency in medium and heavy armor in order to pick one spellcasting class and ignore arcane spell failure (ASF) due to armor for spells up to a level equal to (fighter level + 1).

A fighter with this class feature would begin the game only able to use light armor, but would be able to ignore ASF for up to 2nd level spells in the spellcasting class chosen (say wizard or sorcerer for example).

Using this feature the typical fighter1/wizard6 start to a gish build would only have to worry about ASF when casting a 3rd-level spell. At the next level one could jump into Knight Phantom (Five Nations) and never have to worry about ASF while wearing light armor again. The earlier mentioned Runesmith (Races of Stone) is another good way to eliminate ASF entirely. If you do use Runesmith, though, I wouldn't give up proficiency in heavy armor.

Abjurant Champion is a great PrC, but it won't get rid of your ASF problems (unless you don't war armor since you'll be using spells for AC). Do note that unless you houserule Mage Armor into the abjuration school of magic, it will not get the bonuses from Abjurant Champion's class features.

Alternately you could just play a Duskblade and ignore ASF in progressively better armor as you level.

As yet another option you could simply get a +1 twilight mithril chain shirt and never worry about ASF.

If you really want to invent another gish PrC, more power to you. You could try something like:

3/4 BAB, 4/5 casting progression, d6 or d8 hit die (your call), good will save, 2+Int skill points

Level 1 - Battlecaster (light)
Level 2 - Somatic Weaponry
Level 3 - Battlecaster (medium)
Level 4 - Arcane Power (caster level +1) [I'm too lazy to think of an original name right now]
Level 5 - Battlecaster (heavy)

Probably put the caster level skip at 1st level. It'll get made up for at 4th level.
Totentanz
10-24-06, 11:23 PM The class isn't mine. I may have mislabeled it a "gish," but I'm interested in whether the class itself is balanced. I spend time on the CO Board, I know where to find gish builds :P I'm just asking if the class, made by a fellow player of mine. is balanced.

On the issue of Spellsword: I originally pointed this guy to that class, but he didn't want to lose that much spell-casting. He wanted to be near full arcane casting in ANY armor by an early level.

Thanks for the input. Wardragon, special thanks to you for your germane and insightful opinion. Seeker, the suggested outline is also highly appreciated.
starfire311
10-24-06, 11:25 PM anyway I think it is rather underpowered IMO.... if all you want is casting in armor, I would make it like this

Prereq. Heavy armor proficiency

medium BAB, Fort poor, Ref Poor, Will Good, HD D6
SP 2+int
give +1 caster level at 2,3,4,&5
give 5% reduction in spell failure +5% per level in class.

Abjurant Champion lets you add class level to your Mage Armor and Shield Spells. So at 5th level your Greater Mage Armor will give +13 AC, the same as +5 Full Plate, withough max dex bonus and other such penalties. Shield is similar, though it doesn't have the same duration.

.

this is debateable btw, unless there has been errata
Seerow
10-24-06, 11:27 PM Mage Armor is one of the given examples, which implies it should work, regardless of the ability's actual wording.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Totentanz 10-24-06, 02:46 AM	My friends and I are running a campaign in which one of the players wanted to create a PrC that focused on casting in armor. The class is called the "Focused Caster," and doesn't do anything but allow someone to cast in armor. While the class itself isn't finished, the basics are below. 5 Level PrC Requirements: Knowledge: Arcana (8 ranks), proficient in medium armor. Worst BAB, d4 hit die, 2 SP, wizard skil list without knowledge skills. 4/5 Casting Gets the ability to reduce arcane spell failure per item by 30% by 5th level. Starts at 10% at first and ramps up. I am interested in hearing if people think this PrC is balanced. I would prefer to stay away from "OMG YouRE Stoop1d," line of things. Regardless of your opinion, try to give some concrete reasons, including examples to other similiar material if applicable. If you think it isn't balanced (in either direction), do you have any suggestions for fixing it? Finally, if you are a DM, would you allow it in your game? If you are a player, would you take it given the opportunity? I am going to avoid giving my opinion of the class because I don't want to influence the line of discussion. I'm also interested in hearing what the board has to say, rather than being involved myself. If you need clarification about anything, just ask. Thanks in advance for your input.
Archangel62 10-24-06, 03:38 AM	Could you space it out by level to give us a better ballpark. BTW, check complete mage for Abjurant Champion.
Eyeless Blond 10-24-06, 08:36 AM	Or search for Knight Phantom, which basically gets Armored Casting at first level.
MerlintheTuna 10-24-06, 11:04 AM	A gish can't take 5 more levels of bad BAB on top of his (at least) 3 levels of bad BAB from Wizard levels. Might I ask what's wrong with the usual Spellsword + Eldritch Knight combination?
Totentanz 10-24-06, 06:23 PM	Maybe "gish" isn't the right descriptor for it. I think of it personally as a PrC intended to get primary arcane casters in armor. As for the other PrC's in existence, the player in question wanted the ability to wear armor with his character without losing many levels of casting. He created this PrC in the hopes of being able to wear armor and not lose much in the way of his casting ability. I cannot speak directly as to his opinion on Eldritch Knight or Spellsword, except that he didn't want to lose multiple levels to achieve the goal. I'll attempt a quick breakdown before class starts: 1st level:10% 2nd level:15% 3rd level: 20% 4th level: 25% 5th level: 30% I don't have Complete Mage, but I have been considering adding it to my collection. My question is best framed thus: do you think one level of casting plus whatever feats/or multi-classing neccessary to get the armor prof is enough of a trade-off to get the armored casting?
Seerow 10-24-06, 07:13 PM	Abjurant Champion lets you add class level to your Mage Armor and Shield Spells. So at 5th level your Greater Mage Armor will give +13 AC, the same as +5 Full Plate, withough max dex bonus and other such penalties. Shield is similar, though it doesn't have the same duration. But yeah, bad BAB = Not a Gish Class. Really, just go with a dip into Spellsword, and get stuff like Twilight and Mithral on your armor. Twlight Mythral and 1 level of Spellsword already gets you -30% ASF, only 5% left to get rid of in Full Plate, I'm sure someone can find a way to get rid of that too.
WarDragon 10-24-06, 07:43 PM	I would call this class highly underpowered. Compare it to Knight Phantom (light armor casting at first level), Spellsword (more ASF reduction plus Spell Channeling), or Runesmith (negates ASF completely at first level). At least give it full or 3/4 BAB, and maybe allow them to cast spells without a free hand, ala Somatic Weaponry.
RadicalTaoist 10-24-06, 09:44 PM	Just take the Spellsword from CW. Less effort.
Seeker of Undeath 10-24-06, 10:25 PM	I just thought I'd toss out another idea for grins. If you're building a gish, I imagine you'll probably throw in a level or two of fighter to kick things off. There's an alternate class feature in Complete Mage that lets fighters permanently sacrifice proficiency in medium and heavy armor in order to pick one spellcasting class and ignore arcane spell failure (ASF) due to armor for spells up to a level equal to (fighter level + 1). A fighter with this class feature would begin the game only able to use light armor, but would be able to ignore ASF for up to 2nd level spells in the spellcasting class chosen (say wizard or sorcerer for example). Using this feature the typical fighter1/wizard6 start to a gish build would only have to worry about ASF when casting a 3rd-level spell. At the next level one could jump into Knight Phantom (Five Nations) and never have to worry about ASF while wearing light armor again. The earlier mentioned Runesmith (Races of Stone) is another good way to eliminate ASF entirely. If you do use Runesmith, though, I wouldn't give up proficiency in heavy armor. Abjurant Champion is a great PrC, but it won't get rid of your ASF problems (unless you don't war armor since you'll be using spells for AC). Do note that unless you houserule Mage Armor into the abjuration school of magic, it will not get the bonuses from Abjurant Champion's class features. Alternately you could just play a Duskblade and ignore ASF in progressively better armor as you level. As yet another option you could simply get a +1 twilight mithril chain shirt and never worry about ASF. If you really want to invent another gish PrC, more power to you. You could try something like: 3/4 BAB, 4/5 casting progression, d6 or d8 hit die (your call), good will save, 2+Int skill points Level 1 - Battlecaster (light) Level 2 - Somatic Weaponry Level 3 - Battlecaster (medium) Level 4 - Arcane Power (caster level +1) [I'm too lazy to think of an original name right now] Level 5 - Battlecaster (heavy) Probably put the caster level skip at 1st level. It'll get made up for at 4th level.
Totentanz 10-24-06, 11:23 PM	The class isn't mine. I may have mislabeled it a "gish," but I'm interested in whether the class itself is balanced. I spend time on the CO Board, I know where to find gish builds :P I'm just asking if the class, made by a fellow player of mine. is balanced. On the issue of Spellsword: I originally pointed this guy to that class, but he didn't want to lose that much spell-casting. He wanted to be near full arcane casting in ANY armor by an early level. Thanks for the input. Wardragon, special thanks to you for your germane and insightful opinion. Seeker, the suggested outline is also highly appreciated.
starfire311 10-24-06, 11:25 PM	anyway I think it is rather underpowered IMO.... if all you want is casting in armor, I would make it like this Prereq. Heavy armor proficiency medium BAB, Fort poor, Ref Poor, Will Good, HD D6 SP 2+int give +1 caster level at 2,3,4,&5 give 5% reduction in spell failure +5% per level in class. Abjurant Champion lets you add class level to your Mage Armor and Shield Spells. So at 5th level your Greater Mage Armor will give +13 AC, the same as +5 Full Plate, withough max dex bonus and other such penalties. Shield is similar, though it doesn't have the same duration. . this is debateable btw, unless there has been errata
Seerow 10-24-06, 11:27 PM	Mage Armor is one of the given examples, which implies it should work, regardless of the ability's actual wording.