Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ryanroyce 01-02-05, 02:52 PM	I have the germ of an idea that I hope will make the Fighter better without tacking on a bunch of extraneous abilities. Basically, a Fighter can get more "oomph" out of his bonus feats than anybody else can. For example, taking Weapon Focus with a Fighter Bonus Feat allows Weapon Focus to apply to an entire weapon group (i.e., all axes, not just a greataxe). Taking Combat Expertise with a Fighter Bonus Feat allows more BAB to be shifted to AC (say, 7 BAB instead of 5 BAB). Point Blank Shot as a Fighter Bonus Feat allows a 45ft range of effect instead of 30ft. Things like that. Additionally, the Fighter's inherent feats (armor and weapon proficiences) could get better as he gained in levels. For example, the Fighter could move at his base speed in medium armor and could run at 4x base speed in heavy (I'd place this ability at 5th level). Armor check penalties could decrease at 3rd level every odd level after that. The extra oomph would only be acquired with bonus feats; the regular feats a Fighter gets at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, & 18 would not get this benefit. This idea is still in its formative stages, and thus quite malleable. Constructive comments and criticism are welcome. Ryan
Wildonion 01-02-05, 03:28 PM	I like the idea of a fighter being able to move his base sped in medium and later in heavy. That seems to make sense, like his learning to move in it. I also like the idea of reducing the check penalty, again its like he has learned to use the armor to the fullest. Good idea Ryan.
Szatany 01-02-05, 05:42 PM	Ok, I like that idea. I'd also like to expand it to be fighter-level dependable, so lets roll out (at different levels modifiers are already summed, not additive): Armor Proficiency, Light: Fighter level 5-10: -1 armor check penalty, -2 lb of weight (due to better knowledge of how to wear it and thus redistribute weight) Fighter level 11-20: -2 armor check penalty, -4 lb of weight Fighter level 21-30: -3 armor check penalty, -6 lb of weight Armor Proficiency, Medium: Fighter level 5-10: -1 armor check penalty, -4 lb of weight (due to better knowledge of how to wear it and thus redistribute weight) Fighter level 11-20: armor grants 10% chance to avoid critical hit, treat armor as light (this does not stack with similar abilities) Fighter level 21-30: -2 armor check penalty, -8 lb of weight, +1 AC Armor Proficiency, Heavy: Fighter level 5-10: armor grants 5% chance to avoid critical hit Fighter level 11-20: armor grants 10% chance to avoid critical hit, treat armor as medium (this does not stack with similar abilities) Fighter level 21-30: armor grants 15% chance to avoid critical hit, +1 AC Blind-Fight: Fighter level 5-10: re-roll twice unsuccessful d% roll Fighter level 11-20: you take no speed penalties Fighter level 21-30: applies also to ranged attacks from invisible creatures Cleave: Fighter level 5-10: you make cleave attacks at +1 bonus to damage rolls Fighter level 11-20: you make cleave attacks at +2 bonus to damage rolls Fighter level 21-30: you make cleave attacks at +3 bonus to damage rolls Combat Expertise: Fighter level 5-10: whenever you use combat expertise for at least 3 points, you gain 1 extra point of AC from this feat Fighter level 11-20: penalty limit grows to -7 Fighter level 21-30: penalty limit grows to -9, whenever you use combat expertise for at least 5 points, you gain 2 extra point of AC from this feat (you still gain +1 AC when you use combat expertise for 3 or 4 points) Combat Reflexes: Fighter level 5-10: you gain one additional attack of opportunity per round (this means that 5th fighter with 9 Dex would have 2 attacks of opportunity per round, for example) Fighter level 11-20: you gain two additional attacks of opportunity per round Fighter level 21-30: you gain three additional attacks of opportunity per round Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows: Fighter level 5-10: each round you have 30% chance of deflecting (catching) two ranged attacks instead of one Fighter level 11-20: each round you have 70% chance of deflecting (catching) two ranged attacks instead of one Fighter level 21-30: you can deflect (catch) two ranged attacks per round Dodge: Fighter level 5-10: you can apply dodge to up to 2 enemies, you are still treated as applying this feat to one opponent when it comes to effects of other abilities or feats that relate to dodge Fighter level 11-20: you can apply dodge to up to 3 enemies Fighter level 21-30: you can apply dodge to up to 4 enemies Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fighter level 5-10: you gain proficiency in one additional exotic weapon, it must be similar in design to the weapon you have already chosen (DM's call) Fighter level 11-20: as above, but you gain third weapon from this feat Fighter level 21-30: as above, but you gain 4th weapon from this feat Far Shot: Fighter level 5-10: you can shoot up to 11 range increments far Fighter level 11-20: you can shoot up to 12 range increments far, you can throw weapon up to 6 range increments far Fighter level 21-30: you can shoot up to 13 range increments far Great Cleave: Fighter level 5-10: you can make your 5-ft step between cleaves Fighter level 11-20: you gain +1 bonus on all cleave attacks Fighter level 21-30: when you drop someone to 0 or negative hit points and that creature survived, you can decide that the attack instead reduced the creature to -10 hit points Greater Two-Weapon Fighting: Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 17 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 15 Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater WF, Greater WS: Fighter level 5-10: you gain bons in one additional weapon, it must be similar in design to the weapon you have already chosen (DM's call), same weapons must be chosen for feats that normally affect same weapon Fighter level 11-20: as above, but you gain third weapon from this feat Fighter level 21-30: as above, but you gain 4th weapon from this feat Improved Bull Rush: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on all bull rush attempts Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on all bull rush attempts Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on all bull rush attempts Improved Critical: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on confirming critical threat Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on confirming critical threat Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on confirming critical threat Improved Disarm: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on all disarm attempts Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on all disarm attempts Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on all disarm attempts Improved Feint: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on all feint attempts Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on all feint attempts Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on all feint attempts Improved Grapple: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on all grapple attempts Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on all grapple attempts Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on all grapple attempts Improved Initiative: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on all initiative rolls Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on all initiative rolls Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on all initiative rolls Improved Overrun: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on all overrun attempts Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on all overrun attempts Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on all overrun attempts Improved Precise Shot: Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 17 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 15 Improved Shield Bash: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on damage rolls with shield bash Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on damage rolls with shield bash Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on damage rolls with shield bash Improved Sunder: Fighter level 5-10: you deal +1 point of damage when sundering Fighter level 11-20: you deal +2 points of damage when sundering Fighter level 21-30: you deal +3 points of damage when sundering Improved Trip: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on all trip attempts Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on all trip attempts Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on all trip attempts Improved Two-Weapon Fighting: Fighter level 5-10: Dex prerequisite drops to 15 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 13 Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 11 Improved Unarmed Strike: Fighter level 5-10: you deal 1d4 points of damage when unarmed Fighter level 11-20: you deal 1d6 points of damage when unarmed Fighter level 21-30: you deal 1d8 points of damage when unarmed Manyshot: Fighter level 5-10: Dex prerequisite drops to 15 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 13 Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 11 Mobility: Fighter level 5-10: bonus from mobility increases by +1 Fighter level 11-20: bonus from mobility increases by +2 Fighter level 21-30: bonus from mobility increases by +3 Mounted Archery: Fighter level 5-10: penalties (after being halved) are reduced by 1 Fighter level 11-20: penalties (after being halved) are reduced by 2 Fighter level 21-30: penalties (after being halved) are reduced by 3 Mounted Combat: Fighter level 5-10: you can use this feat 2 times per round, but you suffer -5 penalty at 2nd check Fighter level 11-20: you can use this feat 3 times per round, but you suffer -10 penalty at 3rd check Fighter level 21-30: you can use this feat 4 times per round, but you suffer -15 penalty at 4th check Point-Blank Shot: Fighter level 5-10: range increases to 40 feet. Other abilities or feats that relate to this range are still capped at 30 feet. Fighter level 11-20: as above, but range is 50 feet Fighter level 21-30: as above, but range is 60 feet Power Attack: Fighter level 5-10: whenever you use power attack for at least 3 points, you deal 1 extra point of damage Fighter level 11-20: whenever you use power attack for at least 5 points, you deal 2 extra points of damage Fighter level 21-30: whenever you use power attack for at least 7 points, you deal 3 extra points of damage Quick Draw: Fighter level 5-10: you can sheath weapon as a free action Fighter level 11-20: you can draw a hidden weapon as a free action Fighter level 21-30: you can pick a weapon from ground (if you can reach it without leaving your square) as a free action Rapid Reload: Fighter level 5-10: this feat applies to one other type of crossbow Fighter level 11-20: this feat applies to two other types of crossbow Fighter level 21-30: this feat applies to three other types of crossbow Ride-By Attack: Fighter level 5-10: when you move and use this feat, you can make one 45-degree (or less) turn Fighter level 11-20: as above, but you can make two turns Fighter level 21-30: as above, but you can make three turns Spirited Charge: Fighter level 5-10: when charging while mounted you deal +1 point of damage Fighter level 11-20: when charging while mounted you deal +2 points of damage Fighter level 21-30: when charging while mounted you deal +3 points of damage Stunning Fist: Fighter level 5-10: +1 DC Fighter level 11-20: +2 DC Fighter level 21-30: +3 DC Trample: Fighter level 5-10: your mount gains +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when you utilize this feat Fighter level 11-20: your mount gains +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls when you utilize this feat Fighter level 21-30: your mount gains +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls when you utilize this feat Two-Weapon Defense: Fighter level 5-10: Dex prerequisite drops to 13 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 11 Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 9 Two-Weapon Fighting: Fighter level 5-10: Dex prerequisite drops to 13 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 11 Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 9 Whirlwind Attack: Fighter level 5-10: you are limited to one extra attack from other sourcers per round when using this feat Fighter level 11-20: you are limited to two extra attacks from other sourcers per round when using this feat Fighter level 21-30: you are limited to three extra attacks from other sourcers per round when using this feat
bandito_69 01-02-05, 06:37 PM	I don't have time to make a big long critique, but I like the idea and most of the feat modifications look good. My only issue I guess is whether or not they're necessary. I'm sure this has been argued to death on some other thread out there, but from my experience the fighter is pretty much the ultimate death-dealing melee class out there.
Wildonion 01-02-05, 06:39 PM	Very nice, Szatany. Though you listed Improved Bull Rush twice. :)
-Defiler of Souls- 01-02-05, 07:18 PM	i think its fine as long as weapon spec and focus dont add more then +2 to damage and 1 to attack respectively i think the whole applying to a whole group of weapons is ok though though i think the proposed shield bash improvement is alittle much, as it would add more damage then specialization in addition to it's normal benefit also i'm alittle nervous about the powerattack improvements....do you mean a total net damage of the listed amount increase, or do you mean that much damage increased for every -1 to attack. the former is fine the latter is what makes frenzied berserker so overpowered so i wouldn't approve of it
Szatany 01-03-05, 07:16 AM	though i think the proposed shield bash improvement is alittle much, as it would add more damage then specialization in addition to it's normal benefitWell, it took me 30 minutes to come up with all those feats, so there are obviously mistakes and unbalanced designs. I'm open to suggestion how to improve (not make more powerful) shield bash. also i'm alittle nervous about the powerattack improvements....do you mean a total net damage of the listed amount increase, or do you mean that much damage increased for every -1 to attack. the former is fine the latter is what makes frenzied berserker so overpowered so i wouldn't approve of itThe former. For example, if you are 25th level fighter and use power attack, thats how it looks: 1) If you use power attack for 1 or 2 points, you deal no extra damage from being a fighter. 2) If you use power attack for 3 or 4 points, you deal 1 extra point of damage for being a fighter. (extra damage is per attack, not per point of BAB sacrificed) 3) If you use power attack for 5 or 6 points, you deal 2 extra points of damage for being a fighter. 4) If you use power attack for 7 or more points, you deal 3 extra points of damage for being a fighter.
detectevil 01-03-05, 07:58 AM	Ok, I am not saying I don't like the Idea, I do. But have you tought what it will do to the other Warrior classes, Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin? They are not only much more restricted in the feat department, but this way their feats never reach the same potential. I honestly don't think the fighter is underpowered against this classes, but that they are all underpowered when compared to spellcasters and the rogue.
dragoncc 01-03-05, 11:35 AM	they are all underpowered when compared to spellcasters and the rogue. I agree with you here detectevil, but I think that this is one of the better ways to improve the fighter, while all the other classes have other things you can do to tinker with them like Szatany has with the Ultimate series.
mythandra 01-03-05, 11:54 AM	I'm not in favour of anything that encourages level dipping.
ryanroyce 01-03-05, 01:25 PM	I'm not in favour of anything that encourages level dipping. Regretfully, that's what too many people use the Fighter for anyway. I'm trying to develop a few minor class enhancements that give people a better reason to stick with Fighter over the long haul. Allowing armor and weapon proficiencies to get better at odd levels helps maintain momentum. BTW, I've finally thought of an idea for developing weapon proficiency: the penalty for using a non-proficient weapon decreases from -4 to 0 by 13th level, thus granting pseudo-proficiency in all weapons. Ryan
TheEvilBob 01-04-05, 12:48 AM	I do like the idea of upgraded feats for fighters, however I used experience points to offset the benefit based off an argument from my wizard, who was under the impression that since he had to expend xp to make magical items the fighter should have to do something similar to gain benefits. But aside from that here is how I handled focus Weapon Focus A character gains a bonus to hit with one selected weapon. This bonus starts at +1 for level one and continues to +2 at level 5, +3 at level 9, +4 at level 13 and +5 at level 17. Fighters can take this feat as a fighter bonus feat. Purposely we let all classes take this feat and expand it, it lets everyone be cool and ultimatly is a very good feat. However fighter's also get an added bonus Weapon Focus, Group A Fighter can select one group of weapons such as blades, blugeoning, axes, bows and crossbows, and gains a +1 bonus to hit with these weapons, at level 8 this bonus inceases to +2 and at level 16 this bonus increases to +3. This bonus overlaps with weapon focus and does not stack. Fighter can take this as a bonus feat, this feat is level dependent on the fighter class. This allows a fighter to grab ANY sword and fight with it, or any axe or whatnot. The two areas I like to aim for with a fighter is focus and diversity believing that a fighter should have the ability to chose his own path. XP cost in my games is also evident, the WF bonus costs 0, 250, 500, 750 adn 1000 while the WFGroup costs 0, 500, 1000. And this may get increased based on continued playtesting (I'm honestly thinking about doubling the XP costs)
fractal 01-04-05, 01:11 AM	I do like the idea of upgraded feats for fighters, however I used experience points to offset the benefit based off an argument from my wizard, who was under the impression that since he had to expend xp to make magical items the fighter should have to do something similar to gain benefits. Does he have to expend xp to learn spells?
Triel 01-04-05, 12:34 PM	I personally don't think there is much wrong with the fighter class though I feel that they should have talents/abilities that can't be accessed by other classes. They are the only class I can think of that really lacks unique abilities. While they gain tremendous versatility with the number of feats they can select any other class can take those same feats (with the exception of weapon specialization, greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization, which in essence are their only "unique" abilities). However, even the unique feats have become jeopardized by the advent of certain prestige classes. In 3rd edition any character entering the Templar prestige class could gain weapon specialization in their deity's preferred weapon, which, in that edition was the fighters only unique ability, a feat that only a 4th level+ fighter had access too. In 3.5 recently in Dragon #325 the Bowman Charger was introduced which gains both weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization with the shortbow. I think such classes take away from these feats being exclusive to just the fighter class when it was apparent that those particuliar feats were set up to maintain interest in a figther at higher levels, given the level requirements for those feats. In a way it was to prevent players from grabbing a few fighter levels and switching off into another class and reaping the benefits of such feats (had they been easier to obtain). As it is there are still plenty of players that class into fighter in order to round out their characters with a few feats or to make the requirements for certain prestige classes quicker. I'm currently running a campaign wherein half the party happen to be arcane spellcasters (bard and a sorceror) while the other half are fighters (one multiclassed weaponmaster, the other pure fighter levels). The campaign is winding down to the last session this upcoming weekend and the group has gone through near 20 levels (two of the characters are 20th, and another is close to hitting 20th) so their characters have developped over a considerable amount of time. In the span of the campaign there have been obvious moments where one character got to shine over the others but all in all there hasn't been any huge slant power wise. Certain opposition allowed the fighters to do wonders, especially in the case of foes with high SR while the reverse was true when it came to enemies that had high DR but little or no SR. Depending on what books you use, whether purely offical material or not has a baring on fighters. Obviously the more sourcebooks a campaign uses the more options that become available to fighters as they get the most feats in the game. What I do find though is that when a fighter completes a feat chain they essentially have to start from the bottom up again, gaining entry level feats that may do them little good in order to acquire better feats. Arcane classes, with the notable exception of those that branch off into prestige classes with different spell progression, steadily advance power wise. They learn 1rst lvl spells, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Whereas a fighter learns 3 or 4 feats in a chain and has to start over from scratch. With all that said, I think granting fighters unique feats would be an excellent idea. Feats that are exclusive to the class that won't be found amongst other classes, even prestige classes, unless of course they happen to be multiclassed fighters. Expanding feat chains could assist here as well with the additional feats only accessible to fighters with requirements drawn from the base feats and of course limited to fighters. Minor abilities, as previously mentioned, are great in defining fighters as well. Better movement rates in armor and reduced armor check penalties are a good idea though most of the players I happen to know tend to cover those penalties fairly well by mid level. With a majority of armor check penalties being Str related (climb, jump, swim) many fighters can still pull off those techniques easily enough. Of course those penalties are a bit steep for characters wishing to use skills like tumble or balance. I believe there is an armor optimization or specialization feat in the Races of Stone that reduce armor check penalties slightly and allow for you to gain a +1 bonus to AC when wearing a certain type of armor. But granting fighters something that gives them some sort of appeal or shine (outside of some pretty solid concepts with the right selection of feats) interests me. They're suppose to be the pinnacle of martial prowess, yet a wizard with a high enough Str gets the same effect out of Power Attack as a fighter, more or less (though it's more useful for a fighter given the higher BAB) I guess a better example would be Combat Expertise provided both the wizard and fighter have a BAB of +5 or higher :D anyway, I believe Szatany has hit upon a good solution in making fighters more interesting through slight improvements of their feats. After all they are making a career out of combat moreso than any other class (rangers and barbarians are busy surviving in the wilds as well as developping their martial skills while paladins tend to be busy with churches, knighthoods and other organizations that take their full focus away from martial training whereas a fighter could be a soldier, mercenary or other type with plenty of free time on their hands to hone their skills far more effectively than other PC classes). I think that slight improvements of feats for fighters or a realm of feats solely exclusive to fighters would make them more interesting choices for those that think that the class is under powered or simply want to give the class some flair.
Avalongod 01-04-05, 01:08 PM	For example, taking Weapon Focus with a Fighter Bonus Feat allows Weapon Focus to apply to an entire weapon group (i.e., all axes, not just a greataxe). If you use variant rules from UA, you can already take weapon focus for weapon groups.
Avalongod 01-04-05, 01:11 PM	I honestly don't think the fighter is underpowered against this classes, but that they are all underpowered when compared to spellcasters and the rogue. I've never found rogues to be particularly overpowered. I do think you can design a fighter to be on reasonable par with spellcaster, but it takes careful character development (euphamism for min/maxing). I usually find that, travelling as a party, that even fairly high level spellcasters die without a fighter protecting them. Well, except for clerics, who are da bomb and unstoppable broken machines at high levels once they get divine power and righteous might. Some serious nerfing required there.
detectevil 01-04-05, 02:03 PM	Ok, I will give in that rogues are really not overpowered as they are overpowerable. Its not about sneak attack itself, but about the absurds that can be done with it. It can make a rogue just as good as a fighter in combat. And if a rogue is just as good as a fighter, and a wizard is just as good as a fighter, why isn't the fighter just as good out of combat? To be honest, I've never found the fighter's problem to be lack of fighting ability, but lack of everything else. Fighters are excelent fighters, and I do think they are on pair with barbarians and paladins (and I even feel pallys to be a good bit weak in combat). As I see it, those 3 classes and the Monk, should be about equal in combat. Making fighters the Absolute Kings of Combat makes the other classes obsolete, since, with all honesty, combat is their niche too.
Avalongod 01-04-05, 06:52 PM	To be honest, I've never found the fighter's problem to be lack of fighting ability, but lack of everything else. Fighters are excelent fighters, and I do think they are on pair with barbarians and paladins (and I even feel pallys to be a good bit weak in combat). I definately agree with you about paladins. I played one recently and was rather disappointed. Something of a jack of all trades, master of none. I still find fighters to be generally more durable across a campaign than the other player classes. Although I hear a lot about spellcasters being overpowered, they seem to die more often than do fighters. That helps me sleep a bit better at night.
Mirikon 01-04-05, 10:18 PM	That's because even the dumbest NPCs realize that you weaken the party a lot if you take out the d4 spellcasters. Villians waiting in ambush see a guy in wizard robes, who will they go for first? The guy who may be slinging doom spells, or the fighter? Heck, spellcasters usually go after other spellcasters first, too. That's one of the main balances to the Wizard and Sorcerer's power. They're target numero uno.
aelryinth 01-05-05, 02:27 AM	Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec should be class abilities for a fighter...theyshouldn't have to blow their feats on them to do what fighters are supposed to do....Focus and Spec are their 'rage', and paying for them is counter-intuitive. Making them a class ability means you can open them up to other classes...the fighter will still be a better specialist then anyone. Your table of feat improvements looks a lot like the one I posted. I went with BAB from Fighter levels, and Iterative attacks therefrom for improvements....so something like Mobility was Dodge AC +3, +1 per iterative attack (so 4-7 for a high level fighter). Most of the other benefits scaled similarly. This made fighters not just feat takers, but Masters of Feats...and got away from the whole feat balance issue and the need for new, uber feats...at high levels, all feats are uber for fighters. ==Aelryinth
Triel 01-05-05, 11:08 AM	Heck, spellcasters usually go after other spellcasters first, too. That's one of the main balances to the Wizard and Sorcerer's power. They're target numero uno. In my campaigns wizards/sorcerors have always been target #2. Little sense in dropping a character [unless you killed them outright] if their friends could simply cast a curative spell that got them back up on their feet the following round. After all there are no wound penalties in D&D so a wizard/sorceror with a handful of hit points is often just as effective as one with a full compliment of hit points. Clerics and druids [and to a lesser extent bards] are generally the focus of sentient adversaries followed by your wizards/sorcerors. Spellcasters are often easy to neutralize and I've done so effectively throughout the tenure of my campaigns. Defensive spells such as globe of invulnerabilty offers a deal of protection against low and mid level spellcasters while anti-magic shell proves quit effective in shutting down the capabilities of enemy casters as they can't hurt you through direct means [of course they can still use spells like transmute rock to mud on a section of the ceiling over "protected" character's head to still do damage or other clever uses of magic but more or less you've shut down most baneful spells]. A helmet made with anti-magic shell usable 1/day costs just over 23,000 gold in 3rd edition [I haven't checked costs for it in 3.5]. A fighter with such an item wouldn't have to worry much about a wizard. Activate the helm, move in and cut them down. Without magical bonuses from shield, armor, weapons and what have you most arcane spellcasters suffer far more than a fighter of equivalent level. Even against a group of mixed adversaries a character with the right build could still due without their magic to neutralize the magic of their enemies as anyone coming into the field would have their items neutralized as well. Fighters with their plethora of feats would benefit the best out of such an item. Often overlooked is the ability to counterspell. I haven't looked at the rulings for the expert class in 3.5 but in 3rd they could take a number of skills and make them class skills. An npc expert could take Use Magic Device and Spellcraft, drop a feat into Skill Focus Spellcraft [and if human Use Magic Device as well] and at 1rst level max out those skills. With 3.5 rules a character with no modifier to Int or Cha would still be +7 on those skill checks and could become a reasonable counterspeller armed with a wand of dispel magic. An npc with the leadership feat can have a small or even large division of counterspellers if they could afford or manufacture items that they could use to neutralize enemy spellcasters. And of course there are enemy spellcasters that could counterspell as well. A mid level caster could more or less safely sit back and counterspell with an invisibility spell up while allies go to work on an adventuring party. Pick an enemy spellcaster and shut them down from casting spells. Improved counterspell is a great feat for such a character and dispel magic/greater dispelling are both handy utility spells that many of my characters and npcs take them as readily as they become available rather than snaring fireball or lightning bolt. A spellcaster w/o the capability of casting spells hardly is a threat unless they have something to back up their magic. Of course clerics are still good even if shut down given their decent HD and BAB but the vast majority of wizards/sorcerors that rely solely on destructive spells or the save or defeated type spells find that they must rely on their allies and other PCs to pull their butts out of the encounter. Same could be said of npcs who come under such attacks by the player characters. In my campaigns I've never had to worry about spellcasters, particuliarly arcane ones. Like every class they have their ups and downs and IMO a good DM will use such things throughout the course of a campaign. One encounter may lessen the impact/effectiveness of the PC wizard. The next may hamper the fighter but allow the wizard to use his/her full gamut of abilities. The next could hamper the rogue with encounters against undead but allow the cleric or paladin to step up to the fore. I just think that clever tactics and opponents can cut down the "overwhelming" power of just about any class or combination of feats. It's probably the main reason why I don't think that fighters particuliarly need much in the way of improving though it would be nice to see them with unique class abilities. Every other core class has something that they can do that the other core classes don't have and while fighters get plenty of feats any other class gets access to those same feats [save for 3; weapon specialization, greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization].
evangelion1010 01-05-05, 02:14 PM	I don't mind some of the changes, but i don't believe all of them should be implemented. If there is a way to make a fighter have much to do outside of combat, beyond being able to role-play well, then i'd be more in favor of that. Still, the armor proficiencies aren't bad.
detectevil 01-05-05, 02:35 PM	Well, point across is that Feats are Inferior to class abilities. Were feats better (for everyone, not just fighters) all warrior classes would gain a huge benefit, but the fighters would get the biggest net gain.
Dave1001 01-05-05, 08:14 PM	reminds me of the idea I had for fighter bonus feats to continue to improve the more fighter levels you had. That is, maybe for every 5 or 8 or 10 fighter levels, a fighter's Weapon Focus feat might improve by +1. That way it in no way rewards dippers, and actually gives a character a reason to continue being a fighter (plus it helps in the firepower comparison of a high-level wizard and a high-level fighter. not by much, mind you, but it helps).
shadow mage 01-05-05, 09:10 PM	I know this is sorta off topic, butTriel brought up point that's been greatly bothering me for the longest time that I've never gotten around to dealing with. If hit points are representative of a character's health and stamina, why aren't there (as was mentinoned) wound penalties? For example (a rough example at that), if a character is at full hit points, he/she's honky-dory. Everything's fine. When they drop to one half of their total hit points, they begin taking penalties to skills that require focus (or such skills now require Concentration checks) and they take a -1 penalty to attack/damage rolls. When they drop to a quarter of their total, they can no longer run (can still forced march) and they take a larger penalty to skills, as well as a -2 to Strength to represent their diminished strength (as I believe Constitution and Strength are at least partially related) as well as another (cumulative) -1 penalty to attack/damage rolls. When he's within 10 hit points (opposite end of "death" at -10 hit points) and under, he takes another Strength penalty and the penalties listed above increase. By 0 hit points, the PhB takes over. </off-topic> Anyway, just ideas. I personally like Szatany's feats though, and I'm currently mulling over them a little slower now to help work out technical/balance details.
Szatany 01-06-05, 02:33 AM	Anyway, just ideas. I personally like Szatany's feats though, and I'm currently mulling over them a little slower now to help work out technical/balance details. So, share your ideas :). Meanwhile, here are some feats from Complete Warrior: Close-Quarters Fighting: Fighter level 5-10: you +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with attacks of opportunity provoked by creatures attempting to grapple you Fighter level 11-20: you +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with attacks of opportunity provoked by creatures attempting to grapple you Fighter level 21-30: you +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls with attacks of opportunity provoked by creatures attempting to grapple you Defensive Strike: Fighter level 5-10: you +1 bonus damage rolls with attack described in this feat, Intelligence prerequisite drops to 11 Fighter level 11-20: you +2 bonus damage rolls with attack described in this feat, Intelligence prerequisite drops to 9 Fighter level 21-30: you +3 bonus damage rolls with attack described in this feat, Intelligence prerequisite drops to 7 Freezing the Lifeblood: Fighter level 5-10: DC +1 Fighter level 11-20: DC +2 Fighter level 21-30: DC +3 Greater Two-Weapon Defense: Fighter level 5-10: Dex prerequisite drops to 17 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 15 Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 13 Improved Combat Expertise: Fighter level 5-10: Int prerequisite drops to 11 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Int prerequisite drops to 9, whenever you use this feat for at least 10 points, you pay 1 BAB less Fighter level 21-30: whenever you use this feat for at least 20 points, you pay 3 BAB less Improved Two-Weapon Defense: Fighter level 5-10: Dex prerequisite drops to 15 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 13 Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 11 Phalanx Fighting: Fighter level 5-10: you gain extra +1 bonus on reflex saves when behind shield wall Fighter level 11-20: you grant that +1 reflex bonus to all adjacent characters who also are behind shield wall Fighter level 21-30: you gain extra +1 bonus at AC when behind shield wall Power Critical: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 bonus on attack roll to confirm critical hit Fighter level 11-20: you gain +2 bonus on attack roll to confirm critical hit Fighter level 21-30: you gain +3 bonus on attack roll to confirm critical hit Prone Attack: Fighter level 5-10: you gain +1 AC while prone Fighter level 11-20: you make stand up as a free action even if your attack is unsuccessful (but you still must make attack) Fighter level 21-30: you gain +2 AC while prone Ranged Disarm: Fighter level 5-10: choose another type of weapon you are proficient with, this feat applies to chosen weapon (DM may rule that this new weapon must be somewhat similar to the original one) Fighter level 11-20: choose another type of weapon you are proficient with, this feat applies to chosen weapon (DM may rule that this new weapon must be somewhat similar to the original one) Fighter level 21-30: choose another type of weapon you are proficient with, this feat applies to chosen weapon (DM may rule that this new weapon must be somewhat similar to the original one) Ranged Pin: Fighter level 5-10: DC +1 Fighter level 11-20: DC +2 Fighter level 21-30: DC +3 Ranged Sunder: Fighter level 5-10: +1 damage while making ranged sunder, range increases to 35 feet Fighter level 11-20: +2 damage while making ranged sunder, range increases to 40 feet Fighter level 21-30: +3 damage while making ranged sunder, range increases to 45 feet Shield Charge: Fighter level 5-10: +1 damage when charging with shield Fighter level 11-20: +1 on attack roll when charging with shield Fighter level 21-30: +2 damage when charging with shield Shield Slam: Fighter level 5-10: DC +1 Fighter level 11-20: DC +2 Fighter level 21-30: DC +3 Weakening Touch: Fighter level 5-10: Wis prerequisite drops to 15 (this applies to fighter even if he does not have this feat, so the higher level he is the lower the prerequisites are for him to take this feat) Fighter level 11-20: Dex prerequisite drops to 13 Fighter level 21-30: Dex prerequisite drops to 11
shadow mage 01-06-05, 05:28 PM	So, share your ideas :). I'd love to! :D First huge point: drop the end-point levels. When you write something like levels “5-10”, it seems that after 10th level the benefit doesn’t apply anymore. Instead, I suggest simply listing them as “Fighter level 5+”. Or making a special note regarding how these feats work, though the way I suggest should make it very clear how the feats work without need to express through a written-out rule. Armor proficiency feats: Look good to me. Very nice, definitely emphasizes the adaptive nature of things to life customs (in this case the character’s frequent use of armor and/or extended experience with armor grants them benefits such as these). No balance issues here, especially as this is along the “fighter exclusive” lines that I believe more feats should operate on anyway. I do worry about the fact that a fighter gains all three feats (and thus their benefits) and at later nonepic levels (i.e. levels 15-20) that this can be unbalancing, but I haven’t found anything specific. Innocent until proven guilty, right? ;) Blind-Fight: Like the first ability (levels 5-10), don’t like the second. I think that’s too early for those sort of benefits, as it would almost negate the “need” for any spellcasters in a party altogether (the biggest threat to martial parties is the “stealth bomber” mage attacks, which is now negated). I think that reversing the abilities, so that they can move quicker from levels 11+ and then handle ranged invisible foes at 21+ (including negate their ranged attack bonus, as this would raise the power of this feature enough to make it a more epic-appropriate ability). Combat Expertise: I’d like you to explain this one, please. I’m not sure how this is working, especially in conjunction with feats like Improved Combat Expertise. Defensive Strike: I like the bonuses, but I don’t think the Intelligence prerequisite should change. Just me though. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Not sure I agree with how this works out from a character’s standpoint. The idea of exotic weapons is that they are exotic, unusual. I doubt there are four similar weapons to the whip or shuriken, for instance. I don’t think this feat needs to be changed or altered at all, personally. However, this is in no way unbalancing or over/under-powered. Far Shot: I’m curious about this, because 11 increments is a large increase for thrown or shot weapons. Since this stacks with the normal benefits, I assume, this can mean that at 5th level you have a composite longbow with 165 ft and a maximum-range bow-shot of 1,650 feet from the point of release. Another 165 ft isn’t so bad. However, an 11th-level fighter’s 1,980 feet minus the distance weapon enhancement begins to get pretty damned amazing. Not sure if it’s game-disrupting, but I’ll run a few sample encounters to see how it functions. Great Cleave: Whew, beware this first ability. Free coup de grace at 5th level can make BBEG encounters and “boss fights” at low levels a good bit easier. I like the idea of rearranging the benefits so that the bonus to attack is gained first, the five-foot-step next, and the near-instant-kill last. I see this last ability as something more progressed, higher-level PCs would find desirable anyway, as earlier levels don’t tend to fight as many beings with many, dedicated levels in character classes (they tend to fight more monsters with appropriate CR instead, monsters “dying” at 0 hit points according to the DMG and MM). Improved Unarmed Strike: I think it should be mentioned that damage values listed here are superseded by the unarmed damage values of classes such as the monk. Otherwise, seems pretty darned reasonable to me. Quick Draw: Interesting, but doesn’t the first benefit apply anyway? Doesn’t seem like anything changes there. The other two abilities are great ideas, perfectly acceptable to me. Two-Weapon Fighting (Improved, Greater): I’m not sure these are very appropriate, as it doesn’t exactly help once the feat is already acquired, which all of these other feats do. Lowering the Dexterity prerequisite should be done anyway, in my opinion, but I think the only one that needs this whole variant’s idea of “marginal benefits” is the basic Two-Weapon Fighting. 5th level or higher allows you to not have an off-hand attack (both treated as normal attacks, 11th level or higher grants attacks when fighting with two weapons a 1 point penalty reduction to attacks, and at 21st level and higher the penalty is reduced by another 1 point (cannot gain in this way “bonuses” to attack, simply reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons). Maybe shuffle those around, I dunno. Simply due to the nature of Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, there isn’t really a way I can think of to produce benefits feats so similar in nature. The remainder of the feats seem pretty well balanced considering their nature. I enjoy these ideas, I’ll definitely be implementing this variant in games I run now.
Crashy75 01-06-05, 07:59 PM	k just want to get on this thread for the ideas and to watch future posts and :bump:
Szatany 01-07-05, 10:54 AM	I'd love to! :D First huge point: drop the end-point levels. When you write something like levels “5-10”, it seems that after 10th level the benefit doesn’t apply anymore. Instead, I suggest simply listing them as “Fighter level 5+”. Or making a special note regarding how these feats work, though the way I suggest should make it very clear how the feats work without need to express through a written-out rule. I might do that but i'm kinda...lazy :) Armor proficiency feats: Look good to me. Very nice, definitely emphasizes the adaptive nature of things to life customs (in this case the character’s frequent use of armor and/or extended experience with armor grants them benefits such as these). No balance issues here, especially as this is along the “fighter exclusive” lines that I believe more feats should operate on anyway. I do worry about the fact that a fighter gains all three feats (and thus their benefits) and at later nonepic levels (i.e. levels 15-20) that this can be unbalancing, but I haven’t found anything specific. Innocent until proven guilty, right? ;)Indeed :cool: Blind-Fight: Like the first ability (levels 5-10), don’t like the second. I think that’s too early for those sort of benefits, as it would almost negate the “need” for any spellcasters in a party altogether (the biggest threat to martial parties is the “stealth bomber” mage attacks, which is now negated). I think that reversing the abilities, so that they can move quicker from levels 11+ and then handle ranged invisible foes at 21+ (including negate their ranged attack bonus, as this would raise the power of this feature enough to make it a more epic-appropriate ability).I see no problem with switching 2nd and 3rd benefit. Combat Expertise: I’d like you to explain this one, please. I’m not sure how this is working, especially in conjunction with feats like Improved Combat Expertise.There are two kinds of benefits: 1. Penalty limit grows to...: Normal limit is 5, so you can spend more than 5 BAB. As the limit grows, you can spend more and more (7 and 9) 2. Bonus AC: If you reduce your BAB by a stated amount or more, you gain listed bonus to AC. For example, a 21 fighter reduces his BAB by 8 and thus gains +8 bonus to AC. Because he used CE for 5 or more points, he gains additional +2 AC. Defensive Strike: I like the bonuses, but I don’t think the Intelligence prerequisite should change. Just me though.It should IMO because fighter should not be forced to have mid or high Int to acquire his class abilities. Far Shot: I’m curious about this, because 11 increments is a large increase for thrown or shot weapons. Since this stacks with the normal benefits, I assume, this can mean that at 5th level you have a composite longbow with 165 ft and a maximum-range bow-shot of 1,650 feet from the point of release. Another 165 ft isn’t so bad. However, an 11th-level fighter’s 1,980 feet minus the distance weapon enhancement begins to get pretty damned amazing. Not sure if it’s game-disrupting, but I’ll run a few sample encounters to see how it functions.Don't forget range penalties for all those extra range increments. And there are only 6 range increments with thrown weapons. Great Cleave: Whew, beware this first ability. Free coup de grace at 5th level can make BBEG encounters and “boss fights” at low levels a good bit easier. I like the idea of rearranging the benefits so that the bonus to attack is gained first, the five-foot-step next, and the near-instant-kill last. I see this last ability as something more progressed, higher-level PCs would find desirable anyway, as earlier levels don’t tend to fight as many beings with many, dedicated levels in character classes (they tend to fight more monsters with appropriate CR instead, monsters “dying” at 0 hit points according to the DMG and MM).Fine by me, rearranged. Improved Unarmed Strike: I think it should be mentioned that damage values listed here are superseded by the unarmed damage values of classes such as the monk. Otherwise, seems pretty darned reasonable to me.And if I don't mention it then what happens ? Quick Draw: Interesting, but doesn’t the first benefit apply anyway? Doesn’t seem like anything changes there. The other two abilities are great ideas, perfectly acceptable to me.I don't remeber reading anywhere that the feat allows that so I assume it doesn't. Two-Weapon Fighting (Improved, Greater): I’m not sure these are very appropriate, as it doesn’t exactly help once the feat is already acquired, which all of these other feats do. Lowering the Dexterity prerequisite should be done anyway, in my opinion, but I think the only one that needs this whole variant’s idea of “marginal benefits” is the basic Two-Weapon Fighting. 5th level or higher allows you to not have an off-hand attack (both treated as normal attacks, 11th level or higher grants attacks when fighting with two weapons a 1 point penalty reduction to attacks, and at 21st level and higher the penalty is reduced by another 1 point (cannot gain in this way “bonuses” to attack, simply reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons). Maybe shuffle those around, I dunno. Simply due to the nature of Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, there isn’t really a way I can think of to produce benefits feats so similar in nature.I added explanation to each feat that lowers prerequisites. My reason for making those feats the way they are is that very few fighters gonna have 19 dex to take such feat and I envision fighters as class best suited to fighting 2 weapons (rangers should be 2nd at it at best, never first). The remainder of the feats seem pretty well balanced considering their nature. I enjoy these ideas, I’ll definitely be implementing this variant in games I run now.Nice :).
Szatany 01-21-05, 06:19 AM	Sooooo, the thread died ?