Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 05:58 AM	By posting or submitting any text, images, designs, video, sound, code, data, lists, or other materials or information (such User-submitted content, collectively, "User Content") to or through a Site, including without limitation on any User profile page, you hereby irrevocably grant to Wizards, its affiliates and sublicensees, a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive, and fully sub-licensable license, to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such User Content (in whole or in part) in any media and to incorporate the User Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed. The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such User Content, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction. ((removed))
Gideon_Gideonson 06-15-07, 09:32 AM	Cog, I don't have time know, but expect an indepth critique coming soon. :D
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 09:34 AM	((Removed))
Gideon_Gideonson 06-15-07, 10:28 AM	Okay...here's what I see. A very, very weak class. d6 HD, medium BaB, has to take Con damage for the few spells it gets, 2 bad saves... Additionally, it's empty and oddly balanced. You can cast 9th level spells at level 1, and gain only 3 abilities over the course of 19 levels. Additionally, summoning the spirits is something no one will ever do (most likely) and gets immensely complicated. It would be best to simply remove that ability. There's an interesting concept here, and I'd be willing to help, but this needs a LOT of work. No offense meant, of course.
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 10:37 AM	None taken, I never liked you anyway. (just kiddin') And here I was worrying about overpowering my creation... The shaman, like the bard, is supposed to have strength in diversity. Diversity in the spells it can cast. The price is con damage, but that can be restored by channeling the earthmother. Summoning spirits is there for a neat RP trick, as well as "Oh my god, I'm gonna die, resurrect me later, and I'll summon a post-epic nuke on a stick, k?" Considering there's no level loss for ressurection afterwards, and even a built-in ressurection, I'd consider it a very powerful summon, actually, but with a price. Oh, and casting 9th level spells at level 1? O gid, how hath you mislead yourself so? You get the entire spell list of a spirit you channel, but you can only cast spells off it equal to the spell level you have. For instance, a 6th level shaman can cast up to 3rd level spells off the spell list. Also, the shaman can cast those spells all day long so longa s they have con left, don't forget that. By the way, any spirits you like/dislike in particular?
Aage 06-15-07, 10:38 AM	Okay...here's what I see. You can cast 9th level spells at level 1, and gain only 3 abilities over the course of 19 levels. Oh, and to all of you, since code isn't working: rogue BAB, good will, bad ref/fort. Spell level advances as a sorceror. Otherwise, I agree with Gideon, the class is rather weak with the con-pay to cast...
deviknyte 06-15-07, 10:40 AM	I love the concept!
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 10:42 AM	hey, thanks! So many people want a decent shaman, I figured it was my job to...uh...fail. Yeah, that's right:P . If the con-pay is a problem, is there any way to replace it? I rather keep the concept/flavor. I mean, seriously, no one (except the earthmother) is going to give you a free lunch, especially not the faceless terror. Besides, the concept of the class is to work with them on their terms, not enslave them.
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 11:03 AM	Also, gid, would you care to tell me what's so complicated about the summoning? Sure, the alhoon could get fiddly, but the rest?
dragor_shadowfury 06-15-07, 01:12 PM	Haven't looked at the spirits yet, but as a start it looks awsome, and if I know you right, more awsomes are to come when i see the rest.
Gideon_Gideonson 06-15-07, 03:41 PM	Alright folks, tear it up! I will. A warning ahead of time...I am not nice. I am sarcastic and often brutal. No offense is meant (but I think you know that) GAME RULE INFORMATION Abilities; constitution and wisdom tie as the two most important stats for a shaman, as the latter affects spell DC, while the former is used to pay for spellcasting. Alignment; any neutral hit die; d6 Alright. d6 HD, already behind the Binder, which is the closest equivalent. I'll reserve judgment for now. Class skills; The shaman’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (con), Craft (int), Profession (wis), Knowledge (int), Scry (int), Spellcraft (int) and Survival (wis). Skill points at 1st level; (2+int modifier)x4 Skill points at Each Additional Level; 2+ int modifier. Why does it get all knowledge skills? Architecture? Nobility? Local? Why would it get those? And isn't Scry rolled into Spellcraft in 3.5? Channel spirit; All shamans begin play aligned with a number of spirits equal to the amount of accessible spirits (see chart). At the beginning of each day, a shaman may conduct a ritual lasting 10 minutes per spirit (unless noted otherwise) to make a sacrifice to and summon the power of each spirit to them. Once the ritual is conducted, the spirits chosen are available to the shaman for the next 24 hours. The sacrifice required varies according to the spirit, and the amount will also differ, depending on the maximum level of spell-like abilities that the shaman wants to access from the spirit’s list (see below). Once their power is summoned, one spirit may be channeled at a time. While channeling a spirit, the shaman gains a (usually beneficial) effect, and access to a list of spell-like abilities for that spirit. The time and cost of the sacrifice are both much larger penalties than the Binder gets, and none of the spirit abilities really equal the Binder abilities. Plus, you get less spirit abilities active at one time, although you may switch them. Also, what sort of action is needed to switch spirits? The shaman may cast spell-like abilities off the list up to their spell level (see chart) but for each spell cast, they must temporarily lose constitution equal to 1/3 the spell’s level (rounded up) as payment, it is possible for the shaman to die from this. If anything, such as a strongheart vest, means that the shaman does not lose constitution, than the spirit does not receive its payment, and the spell fails. Lost constitution may be replenished by restoration and the like. Finally, if the shaman channels a malevolent spirit, than they must make a DC 20 will saving throw or become possessed, acting entirely according to the spirit’s agenda, and (if they choose to) becomes controlled by the DM. That Con penalty is heavy, and pratically requires the Earth Mother to be one of the spirits bound. That sort of requirement is a problem. I'll have to think about other ways to get around this one. Greater channeling; The shaman, for better or worse, hosts more of the essence of the spirit they channel, and must be affected by the greater channeling effect of a spirit, as well as the normal channeling effect. A decent ability...but consider this. None of the channeling/greater channeling abilities are really exceptional, and it gets the abilities of only one spirit at a time. That means, except for spells (which you pay Con for), saves, HD, skills, and it's 3/4 BaB, it hardly gets ANYTHING over 20 levels. I see no reason to take this class after level 1. The large gaps don't make it worth the wait for what I eventually get. Release spirit; At 15th level, the shaman gains the ability to release the spirit into the world – at the cost of their own life. As a full round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the shaman calls upon the spirit, and it bursts forth from them. The shaman takes the place in the prison that the spirit occupied, and the spirit returns after 10 minutes, during which time it can hear the shaman’s commands and must obey them. The shaman’s body may be resurrected without level loss once the spirit is gone, and will return as though through a true resurrection after 24 hours if the body is left perfectly undisturbed (1 week if it is). Some spirits may not be released. So this is basically an "I don't die...ever" ability? Even so...I don't think this is worth the bother of statting out each summonable spirit. Some will be obviously better choices than others, and even then it's a bit much. Especially as all the spirits appear to be epic, or pretty damn close. This is both bizzare, seemingly unnecessary (to my eyes), probably rarely used, and more trouble than it's worth. Dual channeling; At 20th level, the shaman has attained mastery over the spirits, and may channel two at the same time. Yay. A level...just a sec...level 8 Binder ability...at level 20. I'm not going into spirits at this point, but it appears that this class is either insanely weak, or overpowered. At the same time. With the Earth Mother, I can burn through highpowered spells virtually at will. Without it, I'm next to worthless. That's a balance issue right there. Summoning Epic level monsters (each of which has to be statted out...) just makes it worse balance wise...you're weak by yourself, and your primary combat ability is dying? Huh? That said, I do like the concept...it just needs some work. I hope I wasn't to caustic. I do try not to be...but it's hard for me. No offense is meant, as per usual.
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 07:50 PM	No, gid, I don't know you:rolleyes: . I can kick the hd up to d8, and that would fit better in my head, I just didn't want another cleric/druid. I am, at all times, entirely paranoid of overpowering my stuff. Scry wasn't rolled in, IIRC, but I'll cut knowledge down to nature, local, religion and arcana, that better? As for time, don't compare it to the binder here, compare it to, say, the wizard. They have to spend an hour regardless of level, where as the shaman starts at 20 min and caps at 100, hardly debilitating. Also, notice a lack of 8-hour-sleep-ness? That's right, you just have to renew it every 24 hours or earlier as convenient, or you lose the stuff until you do renew it. No biggy, correct? The cost may bite aup to, say, level 5. After that, though, it's trivial. I could, if you prefer, cut it down something purely symbolic, something just there for flavor that the shaman is assumed to carry around or may (in the case of the lady of the nine rivers or ignus, for instance) have to work on just a little. Switching spirits is a std action, no AoO. Also, there may be less passive abilities, but just look, gid. Look at the vast selection of spells! (in particular, ignus, faceless terror and LotNR). The title, I think, is the problem here. You're likening it too much to the binder. By similar style, I meant purely flavor-wise, not that the binder is the yardstick you should measure all this by. Passive abilities are supposed to be a nice bonus, not the bulk of the class. You can switch between a large number of different "modes", if you will, and each gives a nice little bonus plus a sort of giant domain worth of spells. As for earthmother being required, it may be restricting, but it's half-intended. In other words, look at the soil mom(okay, earthmother) description, the source of power for all shamans. It's generally worth even the extra channeling feat, and is the reason I started em off with two spirits at first level. There's other ways, such as bear's endurance and lesser resto, and I won't punish anyone for using them instead, but the earthmother is implemented as the easy way out. So, in short, you want less "dead levels". I thought more spells and more spirits would be enough to keep people in, but I guess not. As for channeling, I personally thought the ignus, LotNR and fenrir bonuses were nice, even if you don't like the rest. The ones for the faceless terror are inherently lame to harmful, due to the abundance of powerful spells you get from it. If you have any suggestions, throw em my way, and I'll likely chuck em in. As for the spirits being powerful, it's only their avatar, but it's the avatars of things the gods got a wee bit too paranoid about, they should have some power. I hadn't thought of using it to prevent dying with consequences though, maybe add a "must have atleast 1/2 health" bit? They need to be powerful though, and with serious power to back them, 'cause however small the ultimate consequences, the shaman is dying to summon them, and not for long at that. Anyway, I can kick dual channeling down to level 12 but disallow pairing the earthmother with something else (don't forget, each spirit does more than a vestige.), greater chan. to level 8, and make the capstone triple at 20, and allow earthmother. And I'm aware that that would make them major spell-slingers at 20, but come on, at 20, they should be powerful. Oh, and the statting problems? Tough for the faceless terror, moderately troublesome for the rider and fenrus, easy as pie for the rest. Besides, it should be the player's job at that level to write down the stats for all the spirits they have, not the DM's job.
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 08:08 PM	Haven't looked at the spirits yet, but as a start it looks awsome, and if I know you right, more awsomes are to come when i see the rest. In other words, you still adore everything I write on principle, and gid has been around khael for too long. Business as usual, I guess:D .
Aage 06-15-07, 08:20 PM	Scry wasn't rolled in, IIRC, but I'll cut knowledge down to nature, local, religion and arcana, that better? If this is meant as a nature-style caster (similar to druid or some such) I'd go for geography, religion and nature... possibly also arcana..
cog_n_taz 06-15-07, 08:25 PM	Okay, thanks aage, hadn't thought of geo. I'll make all the fixes at once when I know what they are.
dragor_shadowfury 06-16-07, 10:13 AM	In other words, you still adore everything I write on principle, and gid has been around khael for too long. Business as usual, I guess:D . I adore what you write because I think it deserves it, thats why! The spirits deserve some more Awsomes... whatabout 8/10 AWSOMES... The earth mother's channeling power should be limited to restoring con lost due using other spirits, or its kinda owerpowered. Also I do suggest that you do those level downkicks you suggested earlier... Also I think you forgot to mention what the max spell level you can access given you class level is... And making the sacrafice primarily symbolic (Or 1hp/spell level access wanted) is probably a good idea.
cog_n_taz 06-16-07, 10:29 AM	So I just write it for flavor purposes, and assume in most cases that they have it around, ALA spell component pouch? Oh, and the spell level thing is on level 5. Okay, and I'll fix EM. hp/spell level as a general thing is bad though. I included it for the faceless terror, and that's simply because you actually have to spill a blood sacrifice--yours. By the by, any particular spirits that you like the fluff or crunch of more than others?
dragor_shadowfury 06-16-07, 10:40 AM	I like the faceless terror, Ignus and midgar both in chrunch and flavor. The sage kinda amused me, a patron spirit of lore and wizards/lorekeepers style where even the druids turn back... well it seems funny by first thought, but it makes sense if you think deeper.
cog_n_taz 06-16-07, 10:42 AM	Midgard? Now there's a surprise... I liked the domains I gave it, but the story for it... come on, one sentence? I'm gonna fix that some time.. faceless terror though, from you, comes as no surprise. The sage, in a place like that, would mostly get support from the tribe's storyteller, lorekeeper and historian. All slots will, often enough, actually be filled up by the shaman.
dragor_shadowfury 06-16-07, 10:47 AM	Well, but the feeling of Midgar... I get a lot from reading behind the lines, plus I love Yuan-Ti... and the concept.
cog_n_taz 06-16-07, 10:50 AM	Thanks:) . Actually, though I'm far from religious, I noticed afterwards (maybe I knew subconciously while writing) that snakes and deception are kinda tied together in what little I've read of the bible.
dragor_shadowfury 06-16-07, 10:56 AM	They are, but they are tied more places than that. Actually it goes all the way back to shamanism in certain areas, so you hit the head of the nail with that one.
cog_n_taz 06-16-07, 10:58 AM	See, I'm not a powergamer, so I hit the nail on the head myself. If I were smart, I'd ring fenrir for the purpose. 'course, then there wouldn't be a nail left.:P
cog_n_taz 08-07-07, 04:54 AM	Finally fixed it. I also changed constitution loss to subdual damage, check channel spirit. If it now doesn't seem serious enough, than I will upgrade/downgrade it to double the amount. So, what I need to know now is... 1: what do you think of the new system? 2: what else needs fixing? 3: What should I use as replacement passive abilities for channeling the Earthmother? 4: Should I make shaman-only magic items? Tikis, totems and so on, I mean.
cog_n_taz 08-08-07, 07:39 AM	...Anyone out there?
cog_n_taz 08-09-07, 10:21 AM	Okay, I changed the system on the subdual damage, in the interest of having some element of randomness in there.
cog_n_taz 08-10-07, 04:51 AM	(sigh) Is anyone out there?
dragor_shadowfury 08-15-07, 09:02 AM	sorry for not posting dude, I was writing my post when my connection dropped dead... Murphy's law I guess. Well for the matter at hand. I have told you what I think of the system, but it can survive being retold: 8(/10)xAWSOME. other than the passive of the earthmother, which you mentioned yourself, I can think of anything that needs a fix (this is way better than my f*cked necrotic warrior...). For the earthmother... maybe non-lethal fast healing... I haven't gotten any better ideas. Shaman only items would be great, tailored to the spirits and made as things that are shaman-like (as totems or maybe masks of some kind). The randomness of the non-lethal is a good idea IMO. Finally I want to say this: U RUL3Z
cog_n_taz 08-20-07, 09:32 AM	sorry for not posting dude, I was writing my post when my connection dropped dead... Murphy's law I guess. Yup, a sadly accurate law, I must say. Well for the matter at hand. I have told you what I think of the system, but it can survive being retold: 8(/10)xAWSOME. Funny, I'm actually happy with the flavor, but the system is where I see all the problems... though atleast now the abomination that is constitution damage has been fixed. other than the passive of the earthmother, which you mentioned yourself, I can think of anything that needs a fix (this is way better than my f*cked necrotic warrior...). hey, that was good! I actually said I'd like to play one myself... For the earthmother... maybe non-lethal fast healing... I haven't gotten any better ideas. Could do, could do...but only from NLD caused by casting shaman SLAs, and at a slow rate (say, 1 a minute, or 1/round with g.channeling?). I'd like something non-restorative though, seeing as subdual damage as payment is already becoming considerably milder than the original. Shaman only items would be great, tailored to the spirits and made as things that are shaman-like (as totems or maybe masks of some kind). Right...any ideas? Yeah, I had the concept, but I'm entirely blank... I'll see what I can come up with. The randomness of the non-lethal is a good idea IMO. heh, figures. Nonlethal damage was my idea (inspired by a friend of mine, who was thinking of some sort of fatigue rating), but the randomness was entirely my dad's idea. Finally I want to say this: U RUL3Z ...Sorry dragor, gibberish is my second language:P . Anyway, thanks all the same:) .
dragor_shadowfury 08-21-07, 06:04 AM	Yup, a sadly accurate law, I must say. But not accurate to everyone... I know a few who seems to be inflicted with its opposite. Funny, I'm actually happy with the flavor, but the system is where I see all the problems... though atleast now the abomination that is constitution damage has been fixed. I can't really see more problems, but invite Khael here... Or toss it into the Char opt boards, and all exploitable holes will likely be revealed. hey, that was good! I actually said I'd like to play one myself... To me it seemed good until it met Khael... but I think we fixed it well in the last version. Could do, could do...but only from NLD caused by casting shaman SLAs, and at a slow rate (say, 1 a minute, or 1/round with g.channeling?). I'd like something non-restorative though, seeing as subdual damage as payment is already becoming considerably milder than the original. What about some kind of DR or energy resistance or something?
cog_n_taz 08-21-07, 07:31 AM	But not accurate to everyone... I know a few who seems to be inflicted with its opposite. Really? Inflicted isn't exactly the word I'd use, in that case... I can't really see more problems, but invite Khael here... Or toss it into the Char opt boards, and all exploitable holes will likely be revealed. Bah, I know there's exploitable holes, especially involving some sort of subdual damage regen at high speeds, or something involving release spirit. No, this class is made on the stupidly naive assumption that it won't be played by a munchkin. To me it seemed good until it met Khael... Well yeah, but you can apply that to, to quote the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, Life, the Universe and Everything. What about some kind of DR or energy resistance or something? Nah, that would be too good... actually, I was thinking wild empathy (one that also affects plants) as the basic channeling, and a fat bonus to diplomacy/wild emp with animals/beasts/plants/fey as greater channeling.
dragor_shadowfury 08-21-07, 07:40 AM	Really? Inflicted isn't exactly the word I'd use, in that case... Really! I was in a hurry, so I just picked the first word I thought of that would make the point hit home. Bah, I know there's exploitable holes, especially involving some sort of subdual damage regen at high speeds, or something involving release spirit. No, this class is made on the stupidly naive assumption that it won't be played by a munchkin. just like mostly anything else... including the core stuff. Anyway, Khael will certainly spot whatever stuff needs fixing other than holes. Well yeah, but you can apply that to, to quote the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, Life, the Universe and Everything. yeah, you are right man... And I just realized I am the family Khael when at my mom's... *goes to cut his throat* :P Nah, that would be too good... actually, I was thinking wild empathy (one that also affects plants) as the basic channeling, and a fat bonus to diplomacy/wild emp with animals/beasts/plants/fey as greater channeling. Now that make way more sense than DR stuff... GO FOR IT FOR THE SAKE OF (insert whatever deity you direct your prayers at here)
cog_n_taz 08-21-07, 08:50 AM	Really! I was in a hurry, so I just picked the first word I thought of that would make the point hit home. Y'don't say? Well, reverse-murphy's law...I could definitely use some of that in my life. just like mostly anything else... including the core stuff. Anyway, Khael will certainly spot whatever stuff needs fixing other than holes. Yeah, I'll ask for his help tommorow (my time), than, good idea. And yes, by the time you can break the fighter, nothing is off-limits. yeah, you are right man... And I just realized I am the family Khael when at my mom's... *goes to cut his throat* :P hmm...you? honestly, I would have never guessed, especially with you leaping in to declare the awesomeness of anything I write before it even gets off my keyboard:P . Now that make way more sense than DR stuff... GO FOR IT FOR THE SAKE OF (insert whatever deity you direct your prayers at here) ...Does nerull count? No? Darn, I'll just have to go with something more kid-friendly, than...like the faceless terror:P . Anyways, I'll work on all this when I'm less tired, thanks for the help:) .
cog_n_taz 08-22-07, 08:32 AM	Fixt. I changed the channeling/greater channeling for the Earthmother, and also changed the abilities section (I.E. what abilities are important for a shaman), to reflect the new lack of con-payment. By the by, I have about three more spirits in my head now, and will type them up in my spare time (about a week from now, probably). Atleast one is, as usual, going to make the entirety of norse mythology wish it was copyrighted. Alright, so I'm putting Loki in, and shamans can now pretend to be improvised rogues for trap springing purposes and such.
dragor_shadowfury 08-22-07, 08:37 AM	Y'don't say? Well, reverse-murphy's law...I could definitely use some of that in my life. You're not the only one thinking that once in a while (read: very often) Yeah, I'll ask for his help tommorow (my time), than, good idea. And yes, by the time you can break the fighter, nothing is off-limits. The fighter can be broken quite easily in fact... I don't understand why people keep saying it's the weakest class... The meanest melee builds I have seen, except 2 or 3, is with Fighter as the base class with mort levels. hmm...you? honestly, I would have never guessed, especially with you leaping in to declare the awesomeness of anything I write before it even gets off my keyboard:P . Probably the reasons for this are: What you do is awsome (in my opinion, let's not take that discussion again this early OK), especially when compared to the average doings of my mom, my lil' bro when he's at my mom's (it seems to have a severe negative effect on his mental capabilities to be at my mom's place) and mom's boyfriend's kids. ...Does nerull count? No? Darn, I'll just have to go with something more kid-friendly, than...like the faceless terror:P . Anyways, I'll work on all this when I'm less tired, thanks for the help:) . Nerull does count dude, he's core right. Just keep off the most seedy... But when it come to it, I'm not worried about that with you... If I should be worried about anyone about this it would be Xarallon or Ira... 'Nough 'bout that all right.
EpicEvokerElf 08-23-07, 12:38 PM	Why can this guy channel a deity? And WHY did you list Fenrir and Fenrus as different spirits? Fenrir is the Fenris wolf's name! Also, you could give the Midgard Serpent some earth-related abilities instead of deception; being based off Norse mythology you really needn't add elements of Christianity in there. (Unless, being Jewish [like me] you were referring to the תוראה. Darn, no vowels!) Anyway, way too weak but possibly deadly. That makes no sense, but subdual damage seems too weak and Con too strong. Er, as a penalty. Yeah. But I like the concept, even though your vestiges... er, spirits... need a little brush-up on Norse mythology. Oh, and I just noticed the sorc spell-level restrictions; a little better but he can still use work. Try more ...spirits... earlier, like the binder but at levels 8, 12(14), 16(20), and 20(NA).
NorthWind 08-24-07, 03:30 PM	Alright, first spirit: NorthWind (NG) Called by cog n taz for help with the mythological aspect of the spirits, and he has come to do so. Sacrifice: not applicable Channeling: a +4 competence bonus to Craft (DnD fluff) (couldn't help it, sorry!) Alrighty, in all seriousness, here goes. Spirit List The Rider(N) The rider is the embodiment of courage in battle, martial prowess, and warfare. his name is on the lips of many a warrior as they rush into the thick of battle. Sacrifice; A weapon (or weapons) totaling a net worth of 25gp/spell level. Channeling; +4 competence bonus to ride checks. Greater channeling; the shaman gains weapon proficiency and the weapon focus feat for light and heavy lances. Stats; The rider appears as a mithral golem and an appropriately sized warhorse effigy. The rider is armed with a +2 heavy lance of impact, and a +1 keen longsword. Additionally, The rider never fails a ride check, and possesses the spirited charge and weapon proficiency/focus/specialization and improved critical (longsword and heavy lance) feats. Spell-like abilities 1;mount, true strike 2;cloak of bravery, bull’s strength, whirling blade 3; phantom steed, keen edge, ring of blades 4; greater magic weapon, heroism 5; valiant fury 6; tenser’s transformation 7; mage’s sword, blade barrier, greater heroism 8; lion’s roart 9; greater cloak of bravery, hero’s blade Here we have the Norse god Tyr. He lost his left hand to bind up the Fenris-wolf, so for some flavor, he could appear without a left hand, and an individual channeling him would become right-hand dominant. This is all aesthetic, mind you. The ability selection is good, fits the theme nicely. Fenrir (CN) Fenrir represents the roar of the bear, the flow of the river, the force of an earthquake, the rage of a barbarian, and the primal strength of nature itself. Valuing strength above all else, Barbarians, rangers, and some druids, as well as shifters, count themselves among worshippers of fenrir. Sacrifice; 25gp/spell level of crushed bloodstone. channeling; The shaman’s strength score improves by 2. greater channeling; The shaman gains Dr 5/adamantine stats; Fenrir manifests as a level 3 barbarian earth elemental monolith. Spell-like abilities 1; fist of stone, enlarge, magic stone 2; rage, bull’s strength, earthen grasp 3; stone shape, meld into stone, stony grasp 4; stoneskin, spike stones 5; righteous might, transmute rock to mud/mud to rock, wall of stone 6; flesh to stone, stone tell, tenser’s transformation 7; earthquake, statue, giant size 8; fenrir’s clenched fist (clenched fist, in short), heart of stone 9; elemental swarm (earth). The only thing I have to say here is that Fenrir and the Fenris-wolf are one in the same, according to Norse mythology. Now, you could go with "these are different manifestations of the same beast", which works. But one wonders: why do druids worship such a beast when shamans operate in areas where druids dare not venture? (plus, druids were Celtic, not Norse) There is a Norse god of the hunt, however, which might work here: Ullr, a powerful man holding a bow. Ignus, the volcano lord (NE) At times, nature shows its destructive side. When a volcano erupts, lava and ash scours the surrounding land, obliterating all life until nature shows its kinder face again, restoring the destroyed land. Ignus is a god born from fear, respect and awe felt toward volcanoes, and is one of the most worshipped spirits in any settlement near a volcano. By praying to ignus, villagers hope to avoid his wrath, or perhaps even call it down on their enemies. sacrifice; a bonfire, maintained for 10 minutes/ spell level channeling; +1 caster level on fire spells greater channeling; +1 save DC on fire spells stats; the volcano lord appears as a half-fiend fire elemental monolith. spell-like abilities 1; hail of stone (energy substitution-fire), fiery eyes. 2; produce flame, animate fire, pyrotechnics 3; fire shield, fireball, fire wings 4; wall of fire, blast of flame 5; mass fire shield, fire breath 6; chain lightning (energy substitution-fire), energy immunity (fire) 7; delayed blast fireball, fire storm, emerald flame fist 8; earthquake, incendiary cloud, blackfire 9; meteor swarm, transmute rock to lava, internal fireOkay, the Norse can't help you there. Or at least, I can't...I don't see a fire god listed anywhere, but I can at least say this: usually, fire is a good thing in a cold climate, and is revered. It heats and helps by forging, cooking, etc. Now, it is of course dangerous...but the area where these stories originated from had hot springs and geysers and volcanoes. So perhaps his alignment could be CN (fire is wild and capricious), though not evil. The sage (N) The sage represents scholars across the world and all academic studies and the accumulation of knowledge. The sage is revered by monks, scholars, students, and a few wizards. Sacrifice; one stick of incense per spell level, engraved with writings of some sort. channeling; The shaman gains a +2 bonus on all knowledge skills, which become class skills while channeling. greater channeling; the shaman gains the research feat while channeling. stats; non-summonable Spell-like abilities 1;comprehend languages, identify 2; zone of truth, detect thoughts, locate objects 3; tongues, discern lies 4; divination, locate creature, legend lore 5; scrying, contact other plane, prying eyes 6; analyze dweomer, true seeing 7; greater scrying, vision 8; discern location 9; foresightAll right, ladies and gentlemen, have I got a god for you! This Norse deity was the powerful god of knowledge and magic (even though magic was considered embarrassingly effeminate) and also battle. I present...Odin, the All Father! This could definitely be Odin, as he gave up one of his eyes to drink from a magic stream to gain wisdom. Now, I'd make him summonable, since he's also god of battle, and he could fight as a sorcerer/fighter. He'd appear with only one eye, mounted on an eight-legged horse, and have a pair of raven familiars. Oh, and Odin would probably be NG. Midgard (N) Midgard was originally a yuan-ti spirit, but has since passed into general worship. Its domain is poison, deception, and snakes. sacrifice; one snake scale per spell level, ground into a powder. channeling;+1 natural armour. greater channeling; allows the shaman to wild shape (as a 5th level druid) into a small-sized snake of any sort and back again at will. stats; level 15 yuan-ti abomination druid. Spell-like abilities 1; scales of the lizard, cobra breath, magic fang 2; acid arrow, suggestion 3; poison, greater magic fang 4; snake darts, glibness, poison needles 5; dominate person, sword of deception, vitriolic sphere 6; mass suggestion, symbol of persuasion 7; symbol of weakness, withering palm, waves of exhaustion 8; animal shapes, mass charm 9; shapechange, dominate monster All right, first off: the Midgard serpent was evil. He (or it, not sure which) was thrown from the world, and he was so long, he encircled it, and bit his tail. I believe that he could represent infinity. Maybe. Anyways, very good SLA for the theme. The faceless terror (NE, malevolent) The faceless terror is amalgamation of all the nameless fears that lurk in mortal hearts, and feeds off the fears of the world. In particular its domain focuses on the more primal fears of betrayal and darkness, as well as madness. Locked away before any other spirit, the faceless terror will try to possess any shaman foolish enough to call upon its powers, eventually consuming them. sacrifice; 1 hit point worth of blood per spell level, dripped onto the ground. channeling; +3 bonus to intimidate checks. greater channeling; -2 wisdom stats; 13th level ulitharid wizard lich (alhoon) Spell-like abilities 1; cause fear, doom, ghost light 2; touch of madness, apparition, scare, phantasmal assailants 3; deeper darkness, corpse candle, scare, shadow binding 4; heart ripper, pain, phantasmal killer, evard’s black tentacles, fear 5; bolts of bedevilment, slay living, spiritwall, symbol of pain 6; harm, circle of death, fiendform, arrow of bone 7; insanity, creeping doom, sword of darkness, withering palm 8; maddening scream, blackfire, binding, finger of death 9; weird, wail of the banshee, power word kill Okay...Norse god of madness...not Loki (he was a trickster) and not the Giants (they were tricksters too, I believe) so I'm not too sure on this one. The Earthmother (NG) The Earthmother is the ultimate source of power for all shamans and spirits, representing all the benevolent aspects of nature, though some may have more power over specific parts of it. The Earthmother is willing to actively help shamans regardless of their cause, and, while a sacrifice is still required, she will demand no payment for use of spells. On the contrary, she will restore any of the shaman’s life force that has been used to pay other spirits. sacrifice; one animal or plant per spell level (grass doesn’t count, unless it’s large, like bamboo) channeling; the shaman may use diplomacy on plants, animals, magical beasts and beasts. greater channeling; the shaman gains a +6 bonus on diplomacy toward fey, animals, beasts, magical beasts and plants. stats; non-summonable spell-like abilities 1; calm animals 2; speak with plants 3; plant growth 4; reincarnate 5; death ward 6; liveoak 7; sunbeam 8; repel metal and stone 9; control weather 'Kay, this is an easy one: Freyja, goddess of fertility, beauty, love, magic and death. Just right, if you ask me. Depicted as a beautiful and ever young woman with a bushel of golden apples. Fenrus Fenrus’s domain is both with hunters and the animals of the world. Appearing as a gigantic wolf with glowing green eyes, fenrus is perhaps the wildest, most primal of all spirits, as well as one of the oldest. Fenrus also has some dominion over fear, but it is different from the sort wielded by the faceless terror, It is far closer to the fear of being hunted, of the hunter becoming the hunted. sacrifice; Ivory fangs costing 25 gold per spell level channeling; the shaman gains a bite attack dealing damage appropriate to their size, and slightly enlarged canine teeth. greater channeling; the shaman gains a +6 bonus to survival skill checks while channeling. Stats; gargantuan paragon feral dire wolf Spell-like abilities 1;speak with animals 2; cat’s grace, darkvision, apparition 3; haste, greater magic fang, shadow binding, hound of doom 4; unluck, phantasmal killer, crushing despair 5; animal growth, nightmare, terra cotta lion (but becomes a fiendish dire wolf instead) 6; tenser’s transformation 7; ghostform, shadow walk, animal shapes 8; flensing 9; etherealness, weirdHmm...here's what I have on Fenris: "The ferocious Fenris-wolf was tied up with a magic chain by Tyr, the Norse god of war. It will break free at Ragnorok." When Ragnorok rolls 'round, the Fenris-wolf swallows Odin. The abilities work for him well, I think. In myth, the wolf was something more along the lines of savage destruction. As some flavor, I'd have him appear with a silky white collar, which was what the gods bound him with. Oh, and he's rather evil. Lady of the nine rivers (NG) Almost every non-coastal community is dependant on rivers or lakes for their life-giving water. Without the rivers, and without the lady, wells would run dry, fields would wither and die, and entire villages would die of thirst. At times, though, this great gift can become their undoing, as the lady shows her fury, flooding the rivers and destroying entire communities. sacrifice; one jug of pure water or ice per spell level, poured into a body of water. channeling; +1 caster level to all water and cold spells greater channeling; +1 save DC to all water and ice spells stats; half-silver dragon water elemental monolith spell-like abilities 1; create water, animate water, obscuring mist 2; swim, ice knife, fog cloud 3; gaseous form, water breathing, blast of ice 4; ice storm, solid fog, quench 5; wall of ice, cone of cold, sleet storm, freezing fog 6; acid fog, control weather, freezing sphere 7; control water, energy immunity (cold) 8; horrid wilting, polar ray 9; elemental swarm (water)Hmm...got me there. There's a goddess of snow and winter, the giantess Skaoi, but that's probably not what you're lookin' for...she's probably rather evil, what with being a giant and all. The reaper (LN) In time, all lives end. When they do, it is the duty of the reaper, not only to collect their souls, but to judge them according to the customs of their respective tribes, and send them to whatever afterlife it deems fit. The reaper is, above all things, a staunch enemy of undead, and sees them as an abomination to nature and an enemy to its duty. sacrifice; one bone of any size per spell level channeling; The shaman gains weapon proficiency (scythe) greater channeling; true death 1/day (as the hunter of the dead ability) stats; level 10 marut hunter of the dead with a +1 vorpal keen scythe that never misses and can crit/vorpal undead Spell-like abilities 1; detect undead, invisibility to undead, deathwatch 2; death knell (minus the evil descriptor), darkvision 3; negative energy protection, speak with dead, halt undead 4; death ward 5; spiritwall, slay living 6; antilife shell, arrow of bone, spirit needle 7; finger of death, sword of darkness, ghostform 8; trap the soul, blackfire 9; soul bind, energy drainOh, good. Hel, mistress of death works just right for this. She technically only has dominion over those who die of sickness or old age (thus, everyone who did not die in glorious combat) but all the same, it works either way.
Sleepwalker13666 08-24-07, 03:33 PM	I like the idea, I have a player using a shaman I will run this idea by her. Would you be interested in having this added to the tome of secrets?
EpicEvokerElf 08-24-07, 03:51 PM	Give Fenris a binding-related ability or two, to represent the fetter Gleipnir.
Khael 08-25-07, 05:29 PM	Solely because NW started it, Khael (LE) malevolent Called by cog n taz for help with picking holes. Unfortunally he came. Sacrifice: All your base. (gp value variable) Channeling: a +4 competence bonus to Craft (DnD fluff) Greater channelling: +4 to Knowledge: (Cynicism), Craft: (Sarcasm), and Craft: (Horrifying mental image). Actually I don’t think I was too vitriolic today… The shaman There are places which civilization does not reach, places beyond where clerics walk, places shunned by druids. For the tribes that live there, the shaman of the tribe is their only hope. They act as medicine man, advisor, and a warrior in times of war. To gain a position as the tribe’s shaman, one must defeat the current incumbent in magical combat, the loser is then outcast. Most adventurer shamans (I.E. free of their tribe) hail from such a background, or are on a Seeking. Seeking Periodically, A shaman, especially a young one, will leave the tribe to an assistant temporarily, and leave for a long journey, for the purpose of gaining more wisdom to better serve their people. Such a journey may last as long as 10 years, and some never return. The source of a shaman’s power comes from spirits he channels. These spirits may be embodiments of a particular feeling, ideal or aspect of the environment, or they may be something else entirely. Though they are always willing to lend their powers, only the most benevolent spirit will spend their powers and ask for nothing in return. The Shaman is required to pay with a portion of his own life force, a process that will eventually leave many drained, both physically and spiritually. Spirits Spirits channeled by a shaman normally reside in a prison-like demiplane, rendered powerless over all but their domain in the particular area they are worshipped in, having been imprisoned by the gods in order to restrict their strength. To channel a spirit, the shaman must make a sacrifice of something or the other depending on the spirit, freeing them from the demiplane for as long as the shaman keeps part of them bound in their body. More malevolent spirits may take advantage of this, attempting to possess the shaman and control them, temporarily freeing themselves of the prison. If the shaman so chooses, they can willingly release the spirit into the world for one day—at the cost of their own life. The many spirits are often at odds with eachother, and in order to placate and have access to all of them, the binder must be of a neutral alignment. You've probably seen what I wrote on this section earlier, but to emphasise: This seems to be at odds with what the shaman does mechanically - Wield the power granted by semi-divine beings/god archetypes, rather than bound spirits stated here. GAME RULE INFORMATION Abilities; wisdom is the most important ability score for shamans, as it affects their spell DCs. For those who intend to use melee, disable traps and so on, physical ability scores may also be important. Alignment; any neutral hit die; d8 Class skills; The shaman’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (con), Craft (int), Profession (wis), Knowledge (nature, religion, local, the planes) (int), Spellcraft (int) and Survival (wis). I'm not certain why this class gets Knowledge: The planes - At a guess he wields a few tribal totem spirit known to his tribe/clan, which don't seem to require planar knowledge short of recognising demon incursion via possession. I also think heal might be a useful inclusion given the shaman's role as medicine man, given that he currently lacks the ability to provide healing via spiritual power. Further, from the fluff, illiteracy should be added in, just like the barbarian - Since the shaman is from 'places civilisation does not reach' this makes sense to me. Skill points at 1st level; (2+int modifier)x4 Skill points at Each Additional Level; 2+ int modifier. Level BAB fort ref will Accessible spirits Spell level special 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 2 1 Channel spirit 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 2 3 +2 +1 +1 +3 2 4 +3 +1 +1 +4 2 2 5 +3 +1 +1 +4 3 6 +4 +2 +2 +5 3 3 7 +5 +2 +2 +5 4 8 +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 4 4 Greater channeling 9 +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 5 10 +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 5 5 11 +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 6 12 +8/+3 +4 +4 +8 6 6 Dual channeling 13 +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 7 14 +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 7 7 15 +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 8 Release spirit 16 +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 8 8 17 +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 9 18 +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 9 9 19 +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 10 20 +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 10 Triple chanelling Weapon and armor proficiencies; the shaman is proficient with simple weapons and light and medium armor. Channel spirit; All shamans begin play aligned with a number of spirits equal to the amount of accessible spirits (see chart). At the beginning of each day, a shaman may conduct a ritual lasting 10 minutes per spirit (unless noted otherwise) to make a sacrifice to and summon the power of each spirit to them. Once the ritual is conducted, the spirits chosen are available to the shaman for the next 24 hours. The sacrifice required varies according to the spirit, and the amount will also differ, depending on the maximum level of spell-like abilities that the shaman wants to access from the spirit’s list (see below). Once their power is summoned, one spirit may be channeled at a time. While channeling a spirit, the shaman gains a (usually beneficial) effect, and access to a list of spell-like abilities for that spirit. I find something wrong with the idea of sacrificing stuff each day you plan to go adventuring (Not to mention if you don’t plan it, but get caught up in adventure, and so didn’t sacrifice for the day, you are little better than a spellless mage), particularly since early on, a party has relatively little resources, and probably doesn’t want to see X gold leave each day, to keep a secondary caster. I do like the idea of some of the sacrifices, which are more time based than money, but several of the spirits want items of monetary value, which over time adds up. The shaman may cast spell-like abilities off the list up to their spell level (see chart) but for each spell cast, they take 1d6 subdual damage per three spell levels (rounded up). For instance, a second level spell would deal 1d6 subdual damage, and an 8th level spell would deal 3d6. This represents damage to the soul/paying with part of the shaman's life force, and as such, it affects undead and constructs as though they were not immune to subdual damage. Though this subdual damage may be avoided through spells and such, this means that the spirit was not paid its end of the bargain, and the spell simply fails to function. This damage may be healed normally. Finally, if the shaman channels a malevolent spirit, than they must make a DC 20 will saving throw or become possessed, acting entirely according to the spirit’s agenda, and (if they choose to) becomes controlled by the DM. I’m not happy with the undead/construct thing – It ignores the fact there is pretty much only one form of construct therefore capable of using this class – One with the soultouched template from magic of incarnum (No matter what LG tells us, Nimblewight driving forces are water elemental spirits in generic D&D, not souls.), and that with undead its… weird. Also while the damage is nicely flavourful (outside the constructs), in conjunction with the sacrifice costs, I’m not sure how good that is. Greater channeling; The shaman, for better or worse, hosts more of the essence of the spirit they channel, and must be affected by the greater channeling effect of a spirit, as well as the normal channeling effect. Release spirit; At 15th level, the shaman gains the ability to release the spirit into the world – at the cost of their own life. As a full round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the shaman calls upon the spirit, and it bursts forth from them. The shaman takes the place in the prison that the spirit occupied, and the spirit returns after 10 minutes, during which time it can hear the shaman’s commands and must obey them. The shaman’s body may be resurrected without level loss once the spirit is gone, and will return as though through a true resurrection after 24 hours if the body is left perfectly undisturbed (1 week if it is). Some spirits may not be released. Like Gid, I find this a weird one – It swings between seriously powerful and puny the longer the character lasts – It calls in epic monsters to deal with ECL 15 encounters, and looks to be a win trigger when the shaman is badly hurt, abeit one that . Dual channeling; At 12th level, the shaman has gained a greater understanding of and power over the spirits, and may channel two at the same time. Triple channeling: At 20th level, the shaman gains mastery over the spirits, and may channel three spirits at a time. For the spirits below, I do have one critism to make – They seem very much in general to draw away from the original fluff of the class – Channeling the power of Fenrir, or the Earth mother, sounds much like channelling the power of Hextor, or Pelor – There are a load more doing this with the same gods. I suspect more in keeping would be to do away with naming the archetypes (in general – Earth mother or Death are perfect archetype spirits as they are) as archetypes, and leave names to the players/DM – They don’t use gods, so it doesn’t mess with cosmology, but tribe A shaman will no doubt call his Midgard spirit X, while tribe B’s calls his Y. A perfect example was provided by NorthWind who named these archetypes as a Norse shaman might see them. Spirit List The Rider(N) The rider is the embodiment of courage in battle, martial prowess, and warfare. his name is on the lips of many a warrior as they rush into the thick of battle. Sacrifice; A weapon (or weapons) totaling a net worth of 25gp/spell level. Channeling; +4 competence bonus to ride checks. Greater channeling; the shaman gains weapon proficiency and the weapon focus feat for light and heavy lances. Stats; The rider appears as a mithral golem and an appropriately sized warhorse effigy. The rider is armed with a +2 heavy lance of impact, and a +1 keen longsword. Additionally, The rider never fails a ride check, and possesses the spirited charge and weapon proficiency/focus/specialization and improved critical (longsword and heavy lance) feats. Spell-like abilities 1;mount, true strike 2;cloak of bravery, bull’s strength, whirling blade 3; phantom steed, keen edge, ring of blades 4; greater magic weapon, heroism 5; valiant fury 6; tenser’s transformation 7; mage’s sword, blade barrier, greater heroism 8; lion’s roar 9; greater cloak of bravery, hero’s blade This is a strange one – Looking at first I found the greater channelling power useless – But realised if used as a speciality spirit it was rather good. This spirit does however look to give its wielder a set purpose and path, though I was unsure on the sacrifice – though looting the dead for gear has never looked so useful to a non-necromancer. The nature of most of the spells also mean the shaman is most likely to use them pre-battle it seems so a healer should soak up the damage. Fenrir (CN) Fenrir represents the roar of the bear, the flow of the river, the force of an earthquake, the rage of a barbarian, and the primal strength of nature itself. Valuing strength above all else, Barbarians, rangers, and some druids, as well as shifters, count themselves among worshippers of fenrir. Sacrifice; 25gp/spell level of crushed bloodstone. channeling; The shaman’s strength score improves by 2. greater channeling; The shaman gains Dr 5/adamantine stats; Fenrir manifests as a level 3 barbarian earth elemental monolith. Spell-like abilities 1; fist of stone, enlarge, magic stone 2; rage, bull’s strength, earthen grasp 3; stone shape, meld into stone, stony grasp 4; stoneskin, spike stones 5; righteous might, transmute rock to mud/mud to rock, wall of stone 6; flesh to stone, stone tell, tenser’s transformation 7; earthquake, statue, giant size 8; fenrir’s clenched fist (clenched fist, in short), heart of stone 9; elemental swarm (earth). This is one of those that really should get a name change - As it is there is already a god for the Savage beast side of nature – I forget the name, but hes in BOVD. It’s channelling powers are pretty good (Seriously, coupled with the rider, this might be a very nice melee stand-in, the spells only make this one a great battle field controller as well, a use only countered by the fact… for using that battlefield control the character suffers.), and this is one I think the sacrifice is a good trade-off for as they go – though for that it suffers in terms of usefulness. Ignus, the volcano lord (NE) At times, nature shows its destructive side. When a volcano erupts, lava and ash scours the surrounding land, obliterating all life until nature shows its kinder face again, restoring the destroyed land. Ignus is a god born from fear, respect and awe felt toward volcanoes, and is one of the most worshipped spirits in any settlement near a volcano. By praying to ignus, villagers hope to avoid his wrath, or perhaps even call it down on their enemies. sacrifice; a bonfire, maintained for 10 minutes/ spell level channeling; +1 caster level on fire spells greater channeling; +1 save DC on fire spells stats; the volcano lord appears as a half-fiend fire elemental monolith. spell-like abilities 1; hail of stone (energy substitution-fire), fiery eyes. 2; produce flame, animate fire, pyrotechnics 3; fire shield, fireball, fire wings 4; wall of fire, blast of flame 5; mass fire shield, fire breath 6; chain lightning (energy substitution-fire), energy immunity (fire) 7; delayed blast fireball, fire storm, emerald flame fist 8; earthquake, incendiary cloud, blackfire 9; meteor swarm, transmute rock to lava, internal fire Ok-kay, quite a good early spirit power-wise – A shaman wielding this is very much going down second mage. However as it progresses I see this dropping in usefulness given how many things have fire resistance/immunity. This is however also drawn-back by the fact the shaman will suffer for this power. Also its sacrifice is either the hardest, or easiest (other than the rider) to do – At high levels, it will likely take the best part of an hour pre-ritual to set up (lotta woodchopping to do) , not counting Dm approval – What does a bonfire count as? Does it need to be a 10ft space? 5ft? After all I can make a small wood (or charcoal) fire last hours, would this therefore count? Tricky one that. Also the name – It should be a fire archetype, not a god of volcanos. If my tribe doesn’t live near a volcano, I would look at my party funny if they mentioned a shaman they knew years back who wielded the power of a volcano god, and expected me to do the same via the same god. Also he’s a god. And apparently an active one, not a spirit. The sage (N) The sage represents scholars across the world and all academic studies and the accumulation of knowledge. The sage is revered by monks, scholars, students, and a few wizards. Sacrifice; one stick of incense per spell level, engraved with writings of some sort. channeling; The shaman gains a +2 bonus on all knowledge skills, which become class skills while channeling. greater channeling; the shaman gains the research feat while channeling. stats; non-summonable Spell-like abilities 1;comprehend languages, identify 2; zone of truth, detect thoughts, locate objects 3; tongues, discern lies 4; divination, locate creature, legend lore 5; scrying, contact other plane, prying eyes 6; analyze dweomer, true seeing 7; greater scrying, vision 8; discern location 9; foresight I like this one pretty much, though the sacrifice throws me off – Where in Baator do uncivilised tribes find incense, let alone an engraver?! In power though, it is indirectly incredibly powerful – indirectly in that it won’t be in the region where it can be over powered by it nature, but powerful in that it can use all those abilities with no material cost – for 6d6 nonlethal, you can identify 6 items a day at level 4 on the spot, an act that normally would cost 600 gold for the normal party. Pretty good in other words. I would be inclined to see the sage as LN however – Law provides a place and protection for knowledge, and its keepers. Midgard (N) Midgard was originally a yuan-ti spirit, but has since passed into general worship. Its domain is poison, deception, and snakes. sacrifice; one snake scale per spell level, ground into a powder. channeling;+1 natural armour. greater channeling; allows the shaman to wild shape (as a 5th level druid) into a small-sized snake of any sort and back again at will. stats; level 15 yuan-ti abomination druid. Spell-like abilities 1; scales of the lizard, cobra breath, magic fang 2; acid arrow, suggestion 3; poison, greater magic fang 4; snake darts, glibness, poison needles 5; dominate person, sword of deception, vitriolic sphere 6; mass suggestion, symbol of persuasion 7; symbol of weakness, withering palm, waves of exhaustion 8; animal shapes, mass charm 9; shapechange, dominate monster To me this name has too many connections to Norse myth, and I suspect, they’re the wrong connections too. Jörmungandr is not Midgard. He is only called the Midgard serpent because he is wrapped about the world, Midgard. Another I would seriously consider changing to an archetype, maybe even just ‘The serpent’ given how the powers are all about control, no matter the physical power of the shaman And they are good, though again, like the sage in the non-combat.area. However because so many of the powers are still combat-inclined, this feels either a weak spririt to use therefore, or one with normally useless spells attached only as last resorts. The faceless terror (NE, malevolent) The faceless terror is amalgamation of all the nameless fears that lurk in mortal hearts, and feeds off the fears of the world. In particular its domain focuses on the more primal fears of betrayal and darkness, as well as madness. Locked away before any other spirit, the faceless terror will try to possess any shaman foolish enough to call upon its powers, eventually consuming them. sacrifice; 1 hit point worth of blood per spell level, dripped onto the ground. channeling; +3 bonus to intimidate checks. greater channeling; -2 wisdom stats; 13th level ulitharid wizard lich (alhoon) Spell-like abilities 1; cause fear, doom, ghost light 2; touch of madness, apparition, scare, phantasmal assailants 3; deeper darkness, corpse candle, scare, shadow binding 4; heart ripper, pain, phantasmal killer, evard’s black tentacles, fear 5; bolts of bedevilment, slay living, spiritwall, symbol of pain 6; harm, circle of death, fiendform, arrow of bone 7; insanity, creeping doom, sword of darkness, withering palm 8; maddening scream, blackfire, binding, finger of death 9; weird, wail of the banshee, power word kill Now this is an archetype – Lovecraftian evil, that can stretch across all tribes, no matter its form. Power-wise its sacrifice is easy (though you’ll likely go though healing one spell swifter for it), though its spells are pretty weedy and more for the dramatic early on. Not a bad fact given early on you likely won’t use it, for fear of its controlling the character, since its doesn’t look much better ‘til late on, when it has potential to be one of the best for all the SoD spells. The Earthmother (NG) The Earthmother is the ultimate source of power for all shamans and spirits, representing all the benevolent aspects of nature, though some may have more power over specific parts of it. The Earthmother is willing to actively help shamans regardless of their cause, and, while a sacrifice is still required, she will demand no payment for use of spells. On the contrary, she will restore any of the shaman’s life force that has been used to pay other spirits. sacrifice; one animal or plant per spell level (grass doesn’t count, unless it’s large, like bamboo) channeling; the shaman may use diplomacy on plants, animals, magical beasts and beasts. greater channeling; the shaman gains a +6 bonus on diplomacy toward fey, animals, beasts, magical beasts and plants. stats; non-summonable spell-like abilities 1; calm animals 2; speak with plants 3; plant growth 4; reincarnate 5; death ward 6; liveoak 7; sunbeam 8; repel metal and stone 9; control weather Another archetype, with an interesting sacrifice It’s channelings are useful for the druid-like, as are the spells, which are nothing special, apart from reincarnate, which for 2d6 nonlethal grants a nearly free raising (bar the probable new race thing of course). Then theres the extra power, where from level 12 (I honestly doubt anyone will choose this spirit before than as a first choice, unless they want to follow a really specific path.) this is a must-have removing the inherent weaknesses for the other caster spirits (Where the rider for example is more a combat spirit, so by caster I mean spirits like the volcano god or the serpent.) Really for this its somewhere between middling to strong, mostly due to that extra power, but where it falls depends entirely on the player and which spirit(s) s/he likes to use in conjunction. Fenrus Fenrus’s domain is both with hunters and the animals of the world. Appearing as a gigantic wolf with glowing green eyes, fenrus is perhaps the wildest, most primal of all spirits, as well as one of the oldest. Fenrus also has some dominion over fear, but it is different from the sort wielded by the faceless terror, It is far closer to the fear of being hunted, of the hunter becoming the hunted. sacrifice; Ivory fangs costing 25 gold per spell level channeling; the shaman gains a bite attack dealing damage appropriate to their size, and slightly enlarged canine teeth. greater channeling; the shaman gains a +6 bonus to survival skill checks while channeling. Stats; gargantuan paragon feral dire wolf Spell-like abilities 1;speak with animals 2; cat’s grace, darkvision, apparition 3; haste, greater magic fang, shadow binding, hound of doom 4; unluck, phantasmal killer, crushing despair 5; animal growth, nightmare, terra cotta lion (but becomes a fiendish dire wolf instead) 6; tenser’s transformation 7; ghostform, shadow walk, animal shapes 8; flensing 9; etherealness, weird Personally? This spirit’s effects are weak. It demands a monetary sacrifice for a great many of the dramatic or purely conditionally useful/usable spells, with only a few useful ones mixed in. Not a good trade-off for the gold. Lady of the nine rivers (NG) Almost every non-coastal community is dependant on rivers or lakes for their life-giving water. Without the rivers, and without the lady, wells would run dry, fields would wither and die, and entire villages would die of thirst. At times, though, this great gift can become their undoing, as the lady shows her fury, flooding the rivers and destroying entire communities. sacrifice; one jug of pure water or ice per spell level, poured into a body of water. channeling; +1 caster level to all water and cold spells greater channeling; +1 save DC to all water and ice spells stats; half-silver dragon water elemental monolith spell-like abilities 1; create water, animate water, obscuring mist 2; swim, ice knife, fog cloud 3; gaseous form, water breathing, blast of ice 4; ice storm, solid fog, quench 5; wall of ice, cone of cold, sleet storm, freezing fog 6; acid fog, control weather, freezing sphere 7; control water, energy immunity (cold) 8; horrid wilting, polar ray 9; elemental swarm (water) Another perfect archetype, this in channelling is very much the volcano’s counterpart, with a highly imaginative sacrifice. The spells are pretty good, though a few are highly situational, not a bad thing in this case though. The reaper (LN) In time, all lives end. When they do, it is the duty of the reaper, not only to collect their souls, but to judge them according to the customs of their respective tribes, and send them to whatever afterlife it deems fit. The reaper is, above all things, a staunch enemy of undead, and sees them as an abomination to nature and an enemy to its duty. sacrifice; one bone of any size per spell level channeling; The shaman gains weapon proficiency (scythe) greater channeling; true death 1/day (as the hunter of the dead ability) stats; level 10 marut hunter of the dead with a +1 vorpal keen scythe that never misses and can crit/vorpal undead Spell-like abilities 1; detect undead, invisibility to undead, deathwatch 2; death knell (minus the evil descriptor), darkvision 3; negative energy protection, speak with dead, halt undead 4; death ward 5; spiritwall, slay living 6; antilife shell, arrow of bone, spirit needle 7; finger of death, sword of darkness, ghostform 8; trap the soul, blackfire 9; soul bind, energy drain Another perfect archetype, though its greater channelling and low-level spells are highly… situational seeing as they tend to be useful in an undead based campaign in the main. Later on though, they become more useful, though ironically, less useful in the situations the lower level spells were most valuble in, meaning this is middling at best in terms of power. In summary, I think this sits in the middling, to weak powerline, with one or too indirect spots where its sits as powerful. Additionally the shaman tends to feel as the ‘jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, class, though in the way where it’s a character who is incapable of being prepared for anything – He made his choice previously, and if its wrong, its wrong, but in a way unlike that of a caster only prepared for fire-vulnerable opposition, because if the choice is wrong, its not even the players own fault, - He had a 1-3 in 10 chance of being right, and if he was wrong, his spells were pre-chosen, so he would be unable to have included a contingency such as a ice spell in the previous example. (Yes, I know you haven’t finished making spirits, but in the end, there should only be a limited number of archetypes, which in the end means the shaman will have that problem still.) P.S. For those not accustomed to my writing, though I use the term dramatic, as though a bad thing, I don’t think it is (Some of the spells in that category are my favourites in effect, if not power). What I do think isn’t good is when your character has to in effect act as a money sink for his spells, and several of those on the list he gets aren’t going to be constantly useful, and when they are, won’t have really been valuble anyway.
NorthWind 08-25-07, 07:25 PM	Solely because NW started it, Khael (LE) malevolent Called by cog n taz for help with picking holes. Unfortunally he came. Sacrifice: All your base. (gp value variable) Channeling: a +4 competence bonus to Craft (DnD fluff) Greater channelling: +4 to Knowledge: (Cynicism), Craft: (Sarcasm), and Craft: (Horrifying mental image). Cool, I've got an opposite number. Now I've got to go and finish mine/ do it up properly. NorthWind (NG, benevolent) Called by cog n taz for help with the mythological aspect of the spirits, and he has come to do so. Sacrifice: Your attention. Channeling: a +4 competence bonus to Craft (DnD fluff) Greater channelling: +4 to Bluff, Knowledge: (myths and legends), and Craft: (small drawings) Stats; slim young human with glasses. ...okay some serious input now. Just a small question for now, (more to come when I've got some time to look over the stats more carefully/what Khael's already said): Does this class fill a unique niche?
EpicEvokerElf 08-25-07, 07:28 PM	I believe it does not, in the sense that it is stealing abilities from druids and wizards and packing then under a binder's ability style. However, I cannot think of any way another class could do all of this in this manner. So I don't know. But the question was for cog.
Khael 08-26-07, 08:00 AM	I would say yes and no. Yes, because it forfils a niche of the jack of all trades, like the bard, the Master-of-masks etc. and to a degree they can never attain - A pure bard will never be able to be a master of melee combat himself to the level of fighters, a master-of-masks can't cast or fight like a mage or fighter etc. The shaman however does forfil this jack niche better in some respects - since in time it would be possible to go toe-to-toe with either warrior or mage, on the same level. Forgone conclusion like the other jack classes, but it can go toe to toe far better. And no, because while it has this flexibility of jack classes, it also forces it adherents into a few set paths strewn with limits- A follower of the volcano god will likely never be capable of defeating a true caster in a straight magical duel, even against a fire-favouring opponent - He simply lacks the spells to over come his opposition. Hmmm... In terms of covering all bases with niches, I say yes, in terms of 'Is this actually a class we need in the party', No. Something I never added but I think is important for the original review: I noticed none of the spell-lists grant true healing magic. While I do wonder how much of that is due to you not wanting to 'make the next cleric', I find this to be a good thing, mechanically, and in feel.
cog_n_taz 08-26-07, 06:47 PM	First of all, I'm back. Second, thanks for the absolutely huge help, everyone. I'll get to work here just as soon as I'm a little more awake >.>
NorthWind 08-26-07, 07:09 PM	Sure, good to have you back! I'll be around to apply some more time to examining your class probably tonight...I'm done with chapter five! Ha haha! ...so ya. I'll probably post again soon.
cog_n_taz 08-27-07, 02:38 AM	Why can this guy channel a deity? And WHY did you list Fenrir and Fenrus as different spirits? Fenrir is the Fenris wolf's name! Also, you could give the Midgard Serpent some earth-related abilities instead of deception; being based off Norse mythology you really needn't add elements of Christianity in there. (Unless, being Jewish [like me] you were referring to the תוראה. Darn, no vowels!) Okay, I didn't know about that, sorry. As for why, why can a cleric do that? Or a binder? Or...well, you get the idea. Also, because they let the shaman channel them, in exchange for payment. It's part of the deal. Finally, yes, I did draw some inspiration from there, but that originally came from other mythologies, so even if it isn't Norse, the snake/deception thing is rather common. Anyway, way too weak but possibly deadly. That makes no sense, but subdual damage seems too weak and Con too strong. Er, as a penalty. Yeah. But I like the concept, even though your vestiges... er, spirits... need a little brush-up on Norse mythology. Oh, and I just noticed the sorc spell-level restrictions; a little better but he can still use work. Try more ...spirits... earlier, like the binder but at levels 8, 12(14), 16(20), and 20(NA). Subdual damage too weak? It comes with the sacrifice (admittedly, I'm about to semi-axe that), and don't forget their hit die isn't too fat, either. Plus, subdual goes together with normal damage, and as far as I know, there's no way to heal subdual, aside from resting. Also, possibly deadly? how? Finally, I don't own ToM, so could you go into a little more detail with the numbers back there? . Here we have the Norse god Tyr. He lost his left hand to bind up the Fenris-wolf, so for some flavor, he could appear without a left hand, and an individual channeling him would become right-hand dominant. This is all aesthetic, mind you. And all good, nice idea. The ability selection is good, fits the theme nicely.The only thing I have to say here is that Fenrir and the Fenris-wolf are one in the same, according to Norse mythology. Now, you could go with "these are different manifestations of the same beast", which works. But one wonders: why do druids worship such a beast when shamans operate in areas where druids dare not venture? (plus, druids were Celtic, not Norse) There is a Norse god of the hunt, however, which might work here: Ullr, a powerful man holding a bow. Yeah, different manifestations, or just a new name. Might make him the god of the hunt, good idea. As for druids, I'm sorry about the misleading description, it's mostly that druids are not the sort to stick around with a certain community (especially permanently) and help them out, they'd rather just wander around and dance around trees. Oh, and I know that druids were Celtic. Okay, the Norse can't help you there. Or at least, I can't...I don't see a fire god listed anywhere, but I can at least say this: usually, fire is a good thing in a cold climate, and is revered. It heats and helps by forging, cooking, etc. Now, it is of course dangerous...but the area where these stories originated from had hot springs and geysers and volcanoes. So perhaps his alignment could be CN (fire is wild and capricious), though not evil. hm, good idea. I think we're going too far with the norse base thing though. This is going to be used in all sorts of places, so some will have volcanoes, where he's the volcano god. In other places, he's in charge of fire. CN sounds good though. Anyways, I'm trying to avoid making all of them Norse copyright infringements:P . All right, ladies and gentlemen, have I got a god for you! This Norse deity was the powerful god of knowledge and magic (even though magic was considered embarrassingly effeminate) and also battle. I present...Odin, the All Father! This could definitely be Odin, as he gave up one of his eyes to drink from a magic stream to gain wisdom. Now, I'd make him summonable, since he's also god of battle, and he could fight as a sorcerer/fighter. He'd appear with only one eye, mounted on an eight-legged horse, and have a pair of raven familiars. Oh, and Odin would probably be NG. Odin, huh? Can't believe I forgot... While the summoning ideas are awesome, I am about to axe and replace the release spirit ability in its entirety, so the point is moot, sorry. All right, first off: the Midgard serpent was evil. He (or it, not sure which) was thrown from the world, and he was so long, he encircled it, and bit his tail. I believe that he could represent infinity. Maybe. Anyways, very good SLA for the theme. hmm...infinity? Not sure about that...besides, what spells would represent infinity? Seriously? Okay...Norse god of madness...not Loki (he was a trickster) and not the Giants (they were tricksters too, I believe) so I'm not too sure on this one. As I said, they aren't all Norse copyright infringements, nor do they need to be. This one is my own invention, though it's a common archetype. 'Kay, this is an easy one: Freyja, goddess of fertility, beauty, love, magic and death. Just right, if you ask me. Depicted as a beautiful and ever young woman with a bushel of golden apples. Sounds like a good fit, thanks. Hmm...here's what I have on Fenris: "The ferocious Fenris-wolf was tied up with a magic chain by Tyr, the Norse god of war. It will break free at Ragnorok." When Ragnorok rolls 'round, the Fenris-wolf swallows Odin. The abilities work for him well, I think. In myth, the wolf was something more along the lines of savage destruction. As some flavor, I'd have him appear with a silky white collar, which was what the gods bound him with. Oh, and he's rather evil. Yeah, but I'm just borrowing the name here, not actually making a copy. Still, I suppose the collar could work. Hmm...got me there. There's a goddess of snow and winter, the giantess Skaoi, but that's probably not what you're lookin' for...she's probably rather evil, what with being a giant and all. Yeah, never trusted those tall chaps:P . And no, it doesn't fit, but thanks. Again, it doesn't have to fit in Norse mythology. Oh, good. Hel, mistress of death works just right for this. She technically only has dominion over those who die of sickness or old age (thus, everyone who did not die in glorious combat) but all the same, it works either way. Yup, that works, thanks. Like you mentioned, this guy deals with anyone and anything that dies, but hel works for Norse campaigns. I like the idea, I have a player using a shaman I will run this idea by her. Would you be interested in having this added to the tome of secrets? Tome of secrets? I'd be honoured if you would add this class. Bear in mind that it's woefully incomplete, though. Give Fenris a binding-related ability or two, to represent the fetter Gleipnir. Good idea, the extra spells would help to power the guy up, too. You've probably seen what I wrote on this section earlier, but to emphasise: This seems to be at odds with what the shaman does mechanically - Wield the power granted by semi-divine beings/god archetypes, rather than bound spirits stated here. Really? I don't see the contradiction... could you be a bit clearer, please? I'm not certain why this class gets Knowledge: The planes - At a guess he wields a few tribal totem spirit known to his tribe/clan, which don't seem to require planar knowledge short of recognising demon incursion via possession. I also think heal might be a useful inclusion given the shaman's role as medicine man, given that he currently lacks the ability to provide healing via spiritual power. Good idea, I'll add/remove it as necessary. Further, from the fluff, illiteracy should be added in, just like the barbarian - Since the shaman is from 'places civilisation does not reach' this makes sense to me. Again, great idea, I'll do that. I find something wrong with the idea of sacrificing stuff each day you plan to go adventuring (Not to mention if you don’t plan it, but get caught up in adventure, and so didn’t sacrifice for the day, you are little better than a spellless mage), particularly since early on, a party has relatively little resources, and probably doesn’t want to see X gold leave each day, to keep a secondary caster. I do like the idea of some of the sacrifices, which are more time based than money, but several of the spirits want items of monetary value, which over time adds up. I'll change it to things that are purely symbolic, than, and of no monetary value. Kinda like the wizard's spell component pouch, and if they're caught without their pouch, well...they deserve to get in trouble. I’m not happy with the undead/construct thing – It ignores the fact there is pretty much only one form of construct therefore capable of using this class – One with the soultouched template from magic of incarnum (No matter what LG tells us, Nimblewight driving forces are water elemental spirits in generic D&D, not souls.), and that with undead its… weird. Also while the damage is nicely flavourful (outside the constructs), in conjunction with the sacrifice costs, I’m not sure how good that is. Sacrifices are about to get axed, so subdual will do, no? Also, are you saying I should simply disallow this class for undead/constructs? Like Gid, I find this a weird one – It swings between seriously powerful and puny the longer the character lasts – It calls in epic monsters to deal with ECL 15 encounters, and looks to be a win trigger when the shaman is badly hurt, abeit one that . True, since there's so much opposition for this ability, I'm just going to swap it out for something else, sorry. For the spirits below, I do have one critism to make – They seem very much in general to draw away from the original fluff of the class – Channeling the power of Fenrir, or the Earth mother, sounds much like channelling the power of Hextor, or Pelor – There are a load more doing this with the same gods. hextor? Pelor? how? Sorry, I just don't get what you mean here. I suspect more in keeping would be to do away with naming the archetypes (in general – Earth mother or Death are perfect archetype spirits as they are) as archetypes, and leave names to the players/DM – They don’t use gods, so it doesn’t mess with cosmology, but tribe A shaman will no doubt call his Midgard spirit X, while tribe B’s calls his Y. A perfect example was provided by NorthWind who named these archetypes as a Norse shaman might see them. Yeah, I'll have the names here as something to refer to them by, and the DM/players are free to name them as they see fit:). Good idea, that. Thanks again. This is a strange one – Looking at first I found the greater channelling power useless – But realised if used as a speciality spirit it was rather good. This spirit does however look to give its wielder a set purpose and path, though I was unsure on the sacrifice – though looting the dead for gear has never looked so useful to a non-necromancer. The nature of most of the spells also mean the shaman is most likely to use them pre-battle it seems so a healer should soak up the damage. It is a bit of a specialized one, true. Still, combined with Fenrir (incoming name change, I think. Any suggestions?), it makes for a serious tank. This is one of those that really should get a name change - As it is there is already a god for the Savage beast side of nature – I forget the name, but hes in BOVD. It’s channelling powers are pretty good (Seriously, coupled with the rider, this might be a very nice melee stand-in, the spells only make this one a great battle field controller as well, a use only countered by the fact… for using that battlefield control the character suffers.), and this is one I think the sacrifice is a good trade-off for as they go – though for that it suffers in terms of usefulness. Yeah, any ideas for a new name? And I noticed it's quite powerful, is this the level I should be aiming for? As for why something like this guy would be in the BOVD, that's entirely beyond me...honestly, this guy is more Obad-hai meets Kord than anything evil, let alone Evil. Ok-kay, quite a good early spirit power-wise – A shaman wielding this is very much going down second mage. However as it progresses I see this dropping in usefulness given how many things have fire resistance/immunity. This is however also drawn-back by the fact the shaman will suffer for this power. Also its sacrifice is either the hardest, or easiest (other than the rider) to do – At high levels, it will likely take the best part of an hour pre-ritual to set up (lotta woodchopping to do) , not counting Dm approval – What does a bonfire count as? Does it need to be a 10ft space? 5ft? After all I can make a small wood (or charcoal) fire last hours, would this therefore count? I'll be fixing that, changing the sacrifive for tossing some sulfur around. Other than that, I'll swap out the g. channeling bonus for some ability that lets you avoid fire resistance/immunity, ALA searing spell. Also the name – It should be a fire archetype, not a god of volcanos. If my tribe doesn’t live near a volcano, I would look at my party funny if they mentioned a shaman they knew years back who wielded the power of a volcano god, and expected me to do the same via the same god. If you don't have a volcano, you don't pick Ignus, simple as that. You can, however, use the same stats for a fire god (essentially, you change the title and fluff) Also he’s a god. And apparently an active one, not a spirit. hm, stupid typoes.... as for the active bit, it's not like volcanoes all over the world spontaneously vanish if their patron spirit is imprisoned. I like this one pretty much, though the sacrifice throws me off – Where in Baator do uncivilised tribes find incense, let alone an engraver?! It would, I imagine, be quite obtainable in Baator. Good point though, what do you suggest instead? In power though, it is indirectly incredibly powerful – indirectly in that it won’t be in the region where it can be over powered by it nature, but powerful in that it can use all those abilities with no material cost – for 6d6 nonlethal, you can identify 6 items a day at level 4 on the spot, an act that normally would cost 600 gold for the normal party. Pretty good in other words. Yes, but it's non-combat, and thus less useful in most eyes, so I allowed myself. I would be inclined to see the sage as LN however – Law provides a place and protection for knowledge, and its keepers. Again, good point, LN it is. To me this name has too many connections to Norse myth, and I suspect, they’re the wrong connections too. Jörmungandr is not Midgard. He is only called the Midgard serpent because he is wrapped about the world, Midgard. Another I would seriously consider changing to an archetype, maybe even just ‘The serpent’ given how the powers are all about control, no matter the physical power of the shaman And they are good, though again, like the sage in the non-combat.area. However because so many of the powers are still combat-inclined, this feels either a weak spririt to use therefore, or one with normally useless spells attached only as last resorts. Yeah, the serpent would do. Pity though, Jörmungandr is a really awesome name. Actually, the closest thing it has to non-combat powers are things like suggestion and dominate, which are quite useful in combat if you have any idea what you're doing. It shouldn't be such a problem. Now this is an archetype – Lovecraftian evil, that can stretch across all tribes, no matter its form. Power-wise its sacrifice is easy (though you’ll likely go though healing one spell swifter for it), though its spells are pretty weedy and more for the dramatic early on. Not a bad fact given early on you likely won’t use it, for fear of its controlling the character, since its doesn’t look much better ‘til late on, when it has potential to be one of the best for all the SoD spells. Yeah, another Archetype. So this name will do, than? Or do I have to name it "the ancient and horrible tentacled evil of copyright infringement"? And the thing with spells early on being less useful was, believe it or not, entirely unintentional. Still, whatever works:D . Another archetype, with an interesting sacrifice It’s channelings are useful for the druid-like, as are the spells, which are nothing special, apart from reincarnate, which for 2d6 nonlethal grants a nearly free raising (bar the probable new race thing of course). Ah yes, I was thinking about that too, but like you said, Reincarnate isn't used a whole lot. Cheap ressurection, yes, but you have a chance of coming back as, say, a badger. It's a ressurection spell like phantasmal killer is a save-or-die: technically okay, but unwieldy and comes with many attached strings. Then theres the extra power, where from level 12 (I honestly doubt anyone will choose this spirit before than as a first choice, unless they want to follow a really specific path.) this is a must-have removing the inherent weaknesses for the other caster spirits (Where the rider for example is more a combat spirit, so by caster I mean spirits like the volcano god or the serpent.) Really for this its somewhere between middling to strong, mostly due to that extra power, but where it falls depends entirely on the player and which spirit(s) s/he likes to use in conjunction. Really? +6 is a tad fat, but I never thought it was that good...mind you, I'm not aware of that many ways, if any, to diplominate plants, is that why it's so good? Personally? This spirit’s effects are weak. It demands a monetary sacrifice for a great many of the dramatic or purely conditionally useful/usable spells, with only a few useful ones mixed in. Not a good trade-off for the gold. Sacrifices are on the way to Significant Changes, and its spell list is gonna get beefed up. Fear not, for wuffles shall have his revenge! Um...yeah, I'll fix that, in other words:P . Another perfect archetype, this in channelling is very much the volcano’s counterpart, with a highly imaginative sacrifice. The spells are pretty good, though a few are highly situational, not a bad thing in this case though. Thanks, in a desert, a body of water to pour it into may be hard to find, so you might not be able to channel this one, but that sort of makes sense. Plus, if the cleric digs a hole and casts create water into it, even that will do. Another perfect archetype, though its greater channelling and low-level spells are highly… situational seeing as they tend to be useful in an undead based campaign in the main. Later on though, they become more useful, though ironically, less useful in the situations the lower level spells were most valuble in, meaning this is middling at best in terms of power. Ironic, yes, though I didn't mention it. Still, overall, this selection should provide some use across the board at all levels. In summary, I think this sits in the middling, to weak powerline, with one or too indirect spots where its sits as powerful. Additionally the shaman tends to feel as the ‘jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, class, though in the way where it’s a character who is incapable of being prepared for anything – He made his choice previously, and if its wrong, its wrong, but in a way unlike that of a caster only prepared for fire-vulnerable opposition, because if the choice is wrong, its not even the players own fault, - He had a 1-3 in 10 chance of being right, and if he was wrong, his spells were pre-chosen, so he would be unable to have included a contingency such as a ice spell in the previous example. (Yes, I know you haven’t finished making spirits, but in the end, there should only be a limited number of archetypes, which in the end means the shaman will have that problem still.) You seem to see it as more powerful than most, although the change from con-payment to subdual may have helped with that. And yeah, the jack role was what I was aiming for, so I'm glad that worked out. great explanation Better than I could ever have hoped to put it, thanks Khael:) . Now, I should start fixing things right now, but I'm a lazy guy, and I've also had a long day, so I'll go blow up some giant robots first, m'kay?
cog_n_taz 08-27-07, 05:47 AM	Fixes...finally...done. (collapses) Still need a new name for Fenrir, a new sacrifice for the sage, more spirits (my job) and some shaman-only magic items (open to ideas here). Incidentally, I'll be playing a shaman pretty soon:D .
dragor_shadowfury 08-27-07, 06:05 AM	couldn't resist... Dragor_Shadowfury (LG) eager to help. Among the first to answer the summons of cog n taz and aid in the class improvement. Sacrifice: the time it takes to read through the AWSOMEs. Channeling: a +4 moral bonus to Craft (DnD fluff) Greater channelling: +4 to will saves against Cynicism demoralization, self confidence buffs and craft (wierdness) Stats; teenage guy with a twisted mind.
cog_n_taz 08-27-07, 06:29 AM	couldn't resist... Dragor_Shadowfury (LG) eager to help. Among the first to answer the summons of cog n taz and aid in the class improvement. Sacrifice: the time it takes to read through the AWSOMEs. Channeling: a +4 moral bonus to Craft (DnD fluff) Greater channelling: +4 to will saves against Cynicism demoralization, self confidence buffs and craft (wierdness) Stats; teenage guy with a twisted mind. Ya need an update, there's no stats now, it's all avatars these days:P .
dragor_shadowfury 08-27-07, 07:27 AM	I have a habit of tending to the important stuff myself, but if I need an avatar (because I can only be in half a million places after all) its probably a guy in a black (or purple) robe.
cog_n_taz 08-27-07, 08:08 AM	I have a habit of tending to the important stuff myself, but if I need an avatar (because I can only be in half a million places after all) its probably a guy in a black (or purple) robe. So as long as he passes the fashion test, anyone can turn into an avatar? Seems a wee bit lax...anyway, we're getting spectacularly off-topic here, better stop now.
NorthWind 08-27-07, 08:20 AM	Hmm...well, I'll work on my stats later, some more serious input (it comes in bite-sized pieces!) I agree with Khael that the monetary sacrifice is kinda odd. Symbolic sacrifice is good, but perhaps you could take a feat to ignore sacrifices, and instead follow quirky little tabboos when you're preparing to summon/channeling the spirit? They'd be mostly flavor, but depending on how sacrifices end up working, could be a viable alternative.
Khael 08-27-07, 09:27 AM	Mine in red - sorry it'll take time to match up though.. Really? I don't see the contradiction... could you be a bit clearer, please? hextor? Pelor? how? Sorry, I just don't get what you mean here Essentially, the fluff states how these spirits are bound to a demi-plane 'prison. This however makies little sense given the relative power - I seriously doubt the earth mother is bound there, nor Death. I think I get what you were looking for, but it started to go into 'I get given the power of gods' realms, sounding exactly like a primitive cleric fluff-wise complete with everyone binding the same guys ('Cos I seriously doubt every tribe somehow entrapped their own Earth mother spririt or death), whereas the rest of the fluff gave more of symbiotic guardian spirits, individual to the tribe - They don't get given the power per se, they literally have the spirits piggybacking a lift instead, but there are fifty-eight forms of death are large too. In a sense there fore that 'demi plane' bit made the spirits sound too universal given their obvious power Sacrifices are about to get axed, so subdual will do, no? Also, are you saying I should simply disallow this class for undead/constructs? If its any help, its been done - Undead has to spend a feat to use incarnum. But essentially yes. Its more a class of DM choice than any here since exceptions will abound, but it doesn't sit right. Yeah, any ideas for a new name? And I noticed it's quite powerful, is this the level I should be aiming for? As for why something like this guy would be in the BOVD, that's entirely beyond me...honestly, this guy is more Obad-hai meets Kord than anything evil, let alone Evil. The god in question is the god of beasts - Primal savagery. Obad-hai meets Kord then someone stole his favourite fluffy towel and ran. As for names, for Fenris/Fenrir, something tarot-like might be 'The beast', 'The Hunter' or similar. If you don't have a volcano, you don't pick Ignus, simple as that. You can, however, use the same stats for a fire god (essentially, you change the title and fluff) But then he's not NE. Not all fire gods are as dark (See my previous stuff on the 'universals' It would, I imagine, be quite obtainable in Baator. Good point though, what do you suggest instead? Something written on pieces of wood or slate then burned maybe (Likely slate actually - The idea of knowledge surviving all seems fitting.) Yeah, another Archetype. So this name will do, than? Or do I have to name it "the ancient and horrible tentacled evil of copyright infringement"? And the thing with spells early on being less useful was, believe it or not, entirely unintentional. Still, whatever works:D . It's a perfect name, and for once works with the demi-plane prison thing, since it gives the idea of being this ever shifitng evil once defeated by ALL the tribes, by now they all reember a different aspect, but they still remember its the same horror. Really? +6 is a tad fat, but I never thought it was that good...mind you, I'm not aware of that many ways, if any, to diplominate plants, is that why it's so good? Actually, by extra power, I meant the 'no non-lethal', since its a power, where onther spririts don't get anything similar. Thanks, in a desert, a body of water to pour it into may be hard to find, so you might not be able to channel this one, but that sort of makes sense. Plus, if the cleric digs a hole and casts create water into it, even that will do. I fonud it quite ironic actually - If you channelled her the day before, you could make your watter for today. You seem to see it as more powerful than most, although the change from con-payment to subdual may have helped with that. Maybe, con damage would be very powerful (Unless a level of incarnate was used... You still would have taken the damage...)
cog_n_taz 08-28-07, 12:30 AM	Khael, most of the problems you addressed have already been fixt. I will do some major surgery on the spirit flavor soon, will change Fenrir's name to the Beast or some such, and will change the sacrifice for the Sage. Also, I added illiteracy. Finally, I will be leaving the undead/construct thing as is, and if any DM wants to change it, they can. NW, I might make a feat like that in future, but the sacrifices now aren't major enough for anyone to want to blow a feat on avoiding them. Plus, you can do the taboos and such anyway for flavor, no one's about to stop you. Finally, I plan to add some sort of sky god next, along with the Stormlord, Loki the trickster (not actually as evil as he is in Norse mythology, more like the shaman's answer to Olidamarra), and Theldurin, the forgefather, who is in charge of crafts, smithing, artifice, and so on. So yeah, I have my work cut out for me, but for now... I'm just gonna crash.
EpicEvokerElf 08-28-07, 10:54 AM	Just don't state it's stick incense. Most incense isn't, it's called granular and simply a powder of herbs smoldered over charcoal. By the extra spirits, I meant adding another spirit bound at either levels 8, 14, and 20, or at 8, 12, 16, and 20. Also, to add flavor you should try something like this. To summon and bind a spirit, you must draw a sacred circle and place your sacrifice in the middle (1 minute). You then say an incantation (full-round action) and the spirit manifests in your circle. It then is bound, and you step into the circle and gain the abilities.
cog_n_taz 08-29-07, 11:16 AM	((Removed))
cog_n_taz 08-31-07, 05:42 AM	((Removed))
NorthWind 08-31-07, 09:12 AM	Would you like some fluff with that, sir? Also, a question: are these spirits analogous to deities worshiped in canon DnD? 'Cause there's something about that view that makes them seem less...distinctive. Clerics worship gods, druids; nature. Shamans (or is it shamen? :P ) worship...deities that have different names?
Roxlimn 08-31-07, 09:40 AM	It would probably be more flavorful to fluff them according to local spirits, similar to the Shaman in OA, rather than to very powerful spirits, which is what Druids and Clerics champion. In fact, a Shaman-esque flavor for a Binder is exactly what I thought of when I first saw the class, ala "Shaman King."
EpicEvokerElf 08-31-07, 10:03 AM	Not bad, not bad at all. I like the new ones. You just need to reformat the OP, with bolding and such. Like, the Release Spirit is still listed on the table. And since everyone else did it... EpicEvokerElf (CG) Sacrifice: Your right hand, your soul, and your firstborn. Channeling: You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (Fluff) and Craft (crunch) checks. Greater Channeling: You gain a +4 bonus on Knowledge (Norse mythos) and use of the Format Class feat. Avatar: You can use the Legend Lore spell at will as a standard action with no components of any kind.
cog_n_taz 08-31-07, 11:27 PM	Would you like some fluff with that, sir? Also, a question: are these spirits analogous to deities worshiped in canon DnD? 'Cause there's something about that view that makes them seem less...distinctive. Clerics worship gods, druids; nature. Shamans (or is it shamen? :P ) worship...deities that have different names? You're welcome to try with the fluff, I'll come up with it, I just also happen to be insanely busy, so I haven't written it yet. And yeah, as Rox said, small, local spirits. Again, reflavoring at my earliest inconvenience. They range from deities to incarnations of various forces of nature, but yeah, they're a bit like clerics in that sense, I suppose..sorry. It would probably be more flavorful to fluff them according to local spirits, similar to the Shaman in OA, rather than to very powerful spirits, which is what Druids and Clerics champion. In fact, a Shaman-esque flavor for a Binder is exactly what I thought of when I first saw the class, ala "Shaman King." As I said above, great idea, I'll run with that as soon as possible. Not bad, not bad at all. I like the new ones. You just need to reformat the OP, with bolding and such. Like, the Release Spirit is still listed on the table. And since everyone else did it... EpicEvokerElf (CG) Sacrifice: Your right hand, your soul, and your firstborn. Channeling: You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (Fluff) and Craft (crunch) checks. Greater Channeling: You gain a +4 bonus on Knowledge (Norse mythos) and use of the Format Class feat. Avatar: You can use the Legend Lore spell at will as a standard action with no components of any kind. I'll change the chart (haven't bothered with it, to be honest, since it's so awful) and do bolding and such. Also, the sacrifice strikes me as a little too easy, are you sure you aren't overpowering yourself?:P
cog_n_taz 09-02-07, 04:37 AM	Fluff posted for the Forgefather and Stormlord, enjoy:) .
Roxlimn 09-06-07, 01:17 AM	Actually, I was thinking something more along the lines of: Shon-Ara, the Stormlord Shon-Ara was the ruler of the kingdom of Kargad, which has since fallen to barbarians from the West. During his reign, he instituted and used various forms of harnessing lightning from the sky, including martial techniques, magical spells, and artifice that calls on lightning and thunder for inspiration and application. It is not generally known what has happened to his spirit, but three people know that it actually resides within the ruins of the Stormforge, a powerful relic that once powered all the warriors and devices of his fallen kingdom. A Shaman might be able to secure his alliance and aid, but he is said to be exceedingly arrogant and demanding in his pacts. *Shon-Ara is a local and individual spirit. Once a Shaman has secured his alliance, he travels with that Shaman and cannot provide aid to another.*
cog_n_taz 09-07-07, 06:09 AM	An individual spirit... nice one Roxlimn! Definitely a Job Well Done, mind if I take that?
Roxlimn 09-12-07, 09:57 AM	By all means! :)