Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Realms of Chaos 05-17-06, 09:14 PM	I just read the thread dictating how base classes on the boards are getting a bit crazy in how specific they are. As such, I don't even see the point of using this board to make new classes at this point (in all but the most exceptional circumstances). If you beleive otherwise, prove me wrong. Let's see how many generic niches you can come up with that aren't already taken by another base class or prestige class build. Be my guest. By the way, some niches that have already been used are below: Staunch defender: knight, Dwarven Protector Nature's Defender: Barbarian, Druid, Ranger Specialized Fighter: Fighter, Ranger Shaman: Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer Sage: Wizard, Archivist, Bard Town Guard: Fighter, Knight, Warrior Town Aristocrat: Aristocrat. Laboror/slave: Commoner Shop Owners: Expert, any spellcasting class. Great Ruler/landowner: Aristocrat with leadership feat. Dealer of Spirits: Binder, Spirit Shaman Quick Talker: Rogue, Bard Mercenary: Any martial class Martial Artist: Fighter, Monk Thug: Fighter, Rogue Mob Boss: Rogue, Aristocrat, Fighter Secretive Sage: Shadowcaster, Alienist Deific force: Paladin, Favored Soul, Cleric Hero: Almost any. Paladin if you want something specific Hulking Brute: Barbarian, Hulking Hurler, Warhulk Insane Fighting Lunatic: Frenzied Berserker, Barbarian Regular insane person: Barbarian, Frenzied Berserker, Any given derro, and anyone with a bit of depravity (from heroes of horror). Enchanter: Almost any spellcasting class. Necromancer: True Necromancer, Wizard with school specialization, Evil Cleric, Dread Necromancer. Skirmisher: Scout Hidden in the Shadows: Assassin, Ninja, rogue, Dark Leader: Black guard Item maker: once again, name a spellcasting class. Force of Good: any player with a good alignment. Paladin if you want to be specific. Nonevil-necromancer: Neutral Cleric, Dread Necromancer, Wizard with school specialization. Good Necromancer: Any of the above that avoid using spells with the evil descriptor. Good Necromancer that still somehow manages to control undead even though doing so is an evil act: there is no such class but this is an example of way tooo specific and not generic. Mystical and wondrous: Monk, Wu-Jen Warcheif: Warchief prestige class (miniatures handbook) or barbarian with leadership feat. Tactical Leader/General/Other military position: Marshal (miniatures handbook) Healer: Healer (miniatures handbook), Paladin, Cleric. Go on ahead, list as many generic niches that can not be filled with any other class.
swordspell_mage 05-17-06, 09:36 PM	Illusionist: Disguiser (My own), Sorcerer, Specialized Wizard, Wu Jen
zae 05-17-06, 09:37 PM	Honestly? What's the big deal with base classes needing to be generic? Only now that there are specialised base classes (20 level prestige classes, if you will) am I considering playing games below 7th level again. Seriously, you think everyone has to be as boring as an NPC for the first 5 levels then use a prstige class to become interesting, then cool, don't use the new base classes in your game. But I encourage the creation of new base classes in games I run. Heck, if you tell someone they need a PrCl for a concept, or multiclassing, then they'll feel forced to find the best 6-class combination possible for it. Consider: The CO boards do not use the Hexblade other than a 3 level dip. They don't actually seem that wild about the Duskblade either. Each is less powerful than a weird class combo used to get a "gish". The new classes let people play an interesting concept from step 1 while keeping it at roughly the same power as any other class from 1-20, instead of requiring a combination that leads to more things being added and the character being excessively powerful. When I run games, I'm more than happy to ask the players to pick a single idea or prestige class, and expand it (with co-operation from them) into a 20 level base class.
thasis 05-17-06, 11:20 PM	Thank you Zae. And BTW, I did two classes that are specilized yes, but only about as specilized as the Warlock. Things can be specilized when creating a Core Class, they just have to still have enough flexability to let them have more then one pathway if they choose.
belthazzar1113 05-17-06, 11:52 PM	a summoner that doesn't rely on spells per day. a pet master that trains or has monster that fight for him. an elemental manipulator that doesn't realy on static spells like fireball or lightning bolt. those are the three i have been working on, and those can't be done by other base classes. If you ahve an issue with Base classes being more than fighter wizard cleric theif. then use the generic prcs from UA and ban everything else. Its your game. But don't know people for wanting something campain specific and wanting feedback for it.
Ghostwheel 05-18-06, 12:46 AM	a summoner that doesn't rely on spells per day. a pet master that trains or has monster that fight for him. an elemental manipulator that doesn't realy on static spells like fireball or lightning bolt. Summoning without spells? What do you use instead of spells? Rotten meat? A "pet master"? Well, we could try the leadership feat and any class that has "handle animal" as a class skill. An "elemental manipulator" could simply use Sonic-, Water-, or Earth-based spells. Or should one be able to do similar things that Arcane casters do without using Arcane magic?
Realms of Chaos 05-18-06, 11:09 AM	Summoner without spells is about as generic as a class that gets bonuses on a certain day of the week. The point of this is to find generic niches. You know, niches in society. a summoner without spells is not its own niche. There is already a petmaster: the Beastmaster prestige class (and trying to turn a prestige class into a base class is what has started this whole mess in the first place). I should've been more specific. A niche isn't a bunch of abilities given a single title. A niche is a position that the class falls into within society, battle, etc. For the purpose of this contest, we are looking for niches that have not been filled. Now that I have made myself clear, let the challenge continue. Example Niches: Lunatic with sword, Pirate, Hulking Secret Weapon, Evil Mastermind, Tactitian, Divine Force. Not: Summoner that can call upon divine powers to obtain aid without the use of spells or spell slots, Necromancer that is good but still manages to control undead, or Elementist that uses the elements in an entirely new way. We are looking for the niches that the classes would fall into, not the classes themselves.
AkaKageWarrior 05-18-06, 11:28 AM	I very much like the concept of the core classes and then the opportunity to get a PrC. Why? 1) most core classes offer at least a little freedom (choice of skills, feats, weapons, spells) 2) it's like elementary school and high school! ;) example: the knight, the new class from PHB2 is a good idea, but would be better suited for a PrC IMO. Surely can a first level character try and play to "protect and challenge knightly", but these special abilities to do so fit better for higher levels. So I'd say start as a fighter or paladin and then "get knighted"... On the other hand, it would be nice to get rid of classes anyway! but some new and not too complicated system would be required. AKW
Shedeo 05-18-06, 02:32 PM	Good Necromancer: Any of the above that avoid using spells with the evil descriptor. Good Necromancer that still somehow manages to control undead even though doing so is an evil act: there is no such class but this is an example of way tooo specific and not generic. Either of those niches can be filled with the Wizard, Sorcerer, or Archivist (I think). Only Clerics and Druids are prevented from casting spells with an alignment descriptor opposite of their own. The spell itself may be evil, yes, but it never actually says that casting a spell with the [evil] descriptor counts as an evil act. But enough on that. Generic archetypes, eh? Samurai- Monk 1 or 2/Fighter X (multiclass). Really, I mean, its more a station/title than anything else anyway, but if someone wanted to play the honorbound warrior that has minor ability with diplomacy, is skilled with a sword, and is still capable of mind and body, I'd think this would really be it. That's me, though. Ninja- They're bloody rogues. And in all actuality, most werent even that. They were just samurai. Pirate- Rogue, Swashbuckler Leader- Marshal, or anybody with a high charisma and the Leadership feat. Regardless, while I think base classes should be "generic" I dont think they should be too generic. I mean, Healer, Warrior, Mage, Thief would really be all that we're down to if that were the case. Sound familliar? I think a bevy of base classes are a good thing, at least when you dont come up with a 20-level assassin. But the Knight from the PHB II? I love it. Warlock? Also cool, though I've never played one. But the archetype game is fun.
Nephlite 05-18-06, 03:12 PM	I very much like the concept of the core classes and then the opportunity to get a PrC. Why? 1) most core classes offer at least a little freedom (choice of skills, feats, weapons, spells) 2) it's like elementary school and high school! ;) example: the knight, the new class from PHB2 is a good idea, but would be better suited for a PrC IMO. Surely can a first level character try and play to "protect and challenge knightly", but these special abilities to do so fit better for higher levels. So I'd say start as a fighter or paladin and then "get knighted"... On the other hand, it would be nice to get rid of classes anyway! but some new and not too complicated system would be required. AKW But one can't pretend to be a knight and protrect/challenge with mechanics. Without the mechanics you come off with a weak character unless DM coddles you. Fighter: I challange you to target me only Wizard! Leave those Peasants alone! Wizard: As if, die! (blows the peasants up). Result: no mechanic to force him to target you with spells; the only feat doesn't affect spells but melee (Goas). But: Knight: I challange you to target me only Wizard! Leave those Peasants alone! (Test of Mettle) Wizard: You fool, I'll show you! (targets Knight after failing save) Result: Mechanic to force him to target you with spells; thus, you achieve protection status. We needed a bodyguard class in D&D. I'm glad that Wizards finally made one. But that is all, it fills mounted combat too. Even better Test of Mettle affects all enemies within 100 feet if they fail save. Also tank (high defense warrior) 1. Tank (high defense warriot) 2. Protector 3. Mounted Warrior Three Niches say that the Knight is fine as a base class. a summoner that doesn't rely on spells per day. How would that summoner work though? If not spells/uses day? Why not make adruid who only makes summons? a pet master that trains or has monster that fight for him. Druid. an elemental manipulator that doesn't realy on static spells like fireball or lightning bolt. Druid. Is there anything that Druid's can't do?! (except hate nature) those are the three i have been working on, and those can't be done by other base classes. If you ahve an issue with Base classes being more than fighter wizard cleric theif. then use the generic prcs from UA and ban everything else. Its your game. But don't know people for wanting something campain specific and wanting feedback for it. Really, Druids are that flexible. Ninja- They're bloody rogues. And in all actuality, most werent even that. They were just samurai. Pirate- Rogue, Swashbuckler I think he meant fantasy Ninja not real ninjas. You can make fantasy ninjas with Psionics though. Naruto topic in Psionic board :D . And fantasy Pirates: and the the Class Mariner fits this.
Realms of Chaos 05-18-06, 05:21 PM	*Slaps hand into face* The idea is to come up with UNUSED NICHES, not to list filled ones that I forgot to mention. Has anyone even taken the time to read my first post carefully, or my second one for that matter?
Realms of Chaos 05-18-06, 05:28 PM	*Slaps hand into face* The idea is to come up with UNUSED NICHES, not to list filled ones that I forgot to mention. Has anyone even taken the time to read my first post carefully, or my second one for that matter? Edit: I'm sorry if that comes across as a bit rude. I really have no right to complain and quite frankly expected people to be burning me at the steaks by now, especially avid base class creators. Let the discussion continue.
Ezell Pike 05-18-06, 05:41 PM	Ok here goes. The Quartermaster (usually npc hireling) Good fort save medium BAB d6 for hp Can wear any armor and use shields 4 skill points per level The Quartermaster is in charge of all the menial tasks that PC's are too busy for IE payroll booking travel and stays at inns. Interacting with the NPC's that might end up eating into importatnt game time. Like the pesky merchant that insists on haggling. Skills include Doplomacy, gather information, survival, riding, climbing ,swimming ,animal handling, languages. Often used as additional firepower(or fodder) in random encounters. Stays uotside guarding horses while party is in dungeons. or is that covered?
Realms of Chaos 05-19-06, 05:34 PM	Horray, a successful attempt (even though it is an NPC class). The Quartermaster deserves their own niche because an expert is as similar to the niche of the Quartermaster as a rogue is similar to the niche of the ninja (and note that both rogues and ninjas have their own class). That is the point of this thread. Thank you.
Esponer 05-19-06, 06:26 PM	One problem, Realms of Chaos, is that while you offer classes to fill certain niches, they rarely actually fill that niche and nothing else. For instance, let's look at what you have for "quick talker" - the rogue, and the bard. That's all. So, if somebody wants to play a "quick talker", they must play either a rogue or a bard. There is room here for another class that fulfills this niche without having all sorts of unnecessary baggage. Ultimately, the perfect system is one without classes, where you simply choose your skills. With a class system, we run the risk of picking up ridiculous amounts of baggage just trying to get what we want. A few months back, somebody made a fairly classic standard class (I don't recall what it was now, unfortunately) that filled a niche. Someone then proceeded to reply that you could build this with prestige classes. Could you? Yes. How? The list of baggage required was insane (you had to be nongood, had to curse people, stab people in the back, cast some spells... all irrelevant to the niche the poster was aiming for), and this was all to cherry pick a few relevant abilities. It would not work a multiclassing combination, unless you fitted your ideas so that all that baggage was now useful. Also, you started talking about (standard) classes, and yet then started listing prestige classes. I'd imagine this must have been a mistake? Of course any broad niche has room for a standard class dedicated to it: just because you can combine standard and prestige classes to build something, does not mean that there's not room for a standard class that just does it outright. You usually get unwanted baggage, especially if what you're after is a fairly broad thing. Anyway, moving beyond these two errors you seem to have made. Niches unfilled, or with plenty of room. Shapeshifter As it stands, shapeshifting is extremely difficult to manage without a lot of unnecessary baggage. Allow me to elucidate: I'm talking of the sort of shapeshifting which changes your physical characteristics, rather than transforming you into a different creature completely (polymorphing). This is virtually impossible - the warshaper prestige class seems to recognise the niche, but it simply isn't enough to fulfill it. A shapeshifter standard class should exist, and it shouldn't be a caster/manifester either. Just a shifter. In recognition of this niche, you'll find the theriomorph (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=615364) (although that does focus on the easier-to-write-up area of polymorphing rather than shapeshifting) and the shaper on these forums. I also have my own, the metamorph (a psionic shapeshifter). Meditating warrior Not quite as in demand as the last one, although you'd be surprised. Essentially, this is somebody who is first and foremost a warrior, but with the slant of using some sort of hyperfocused state, achieving a perfect attack or state of mind. I tend to see this in many high fantasy books for archers, and it includes some very original and fun concepts: finding the Void in the Wheel of Time, Raif Sevrance's abilities in A Cavern of Black Ice, etc. I've seen this niche quite a lot, and while subtle, it's hard to fill usually. Fighter just won't cut it, and monk is barely better (and has loads of unnecessary baggage). This one would be pretty easy to do as a single standard class, and could accommodate for a lot of different directions. I've seen standard classes fitting this niche too; there was one a while ago that was sort of a "one shot wonder" idea, if I recall correctly. Again, I have my own, the mindborn (fulfilling the demand for a full BAB psionic class, and the whole hyperfocus thing). Commander/leader I'm just restating this one because the marshal isn't really ideal for this niche: there's room for more, or even better, a revision of the marshal. You can't blame anyone for making standard classes in this niche. Classic wizard With no meaningful way to have a staff that you hold onto and actually rely upon for powers, and very little abstract magic, this is most definitely a niche that could have a standard class here (it's not in desperate need, but there's plenty of room here for something original and fun). The truenamer gives it a go, taking part of this niche, but not all. I've seen some pretty good ideas here in the past. I had the cabalist, but I never got around to writing it up. ...No, I can't give this one a title offhand Try doing a classic, skilled, non-spellcaster who outwits his foes time after time without picking up too much unwanted baggage. The Doctor in Doctor Who is my favourite example here. Is he first and foremost a fighter? No. Does he cast spells? No. What do you do if you don't want to cast spells, don't want to be a rogue, but want a lot of skills, a lot of knowledge, and perhaps the ability to use your knowledge to gain the upperhand? This is touched upon in several places: I loved how the archivist looked at it. But that's it - looked at it. The loremaster isn't too bad here, but still leaves something to be desired, and of course leaves you waiting for a while. Someone with a lot of guts and a lot of experience in building standard classes could look at something here. Beyond this, there's plenty of room for focusing more on vast niches which some classes try to accommodate for in one vast sweep. For instance, a wizard or psion who focus on telepathy can be potent, but ultimately it's always going to be clear that they have other abilities and they're balanced under the assumption that they use all of their abilities. And thus, there's room for a dedicated telepath of some sort. (And wonderfully, this could also incorporate your "fast-talker" niche, often known as "the party face" on these boards, by being very good with people without having to backstab people or sing.) Likewise, an oracle? There's a prestige class over on the prestige class forums right now, the combat diviner, which is a great example of how this could be used. A psion (seer) could be used, but ultimately the psion is balanced under the assumption that it has more powers than clairsentience. A dedicated clairsentient, therefore, could exist.