Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xabre 12-13-05, 09:06 AM	I need a class that has a good synergy with Dragon Disciple, and can offer the non-prepared arcane casting that is needed. Basically, I have 9 levels of a fighter-style class, and need this level to be the bridge to Dragon Disciple. Any thoughts?
CzarGarrett 12-13-05, 09:15 AM	Hexblade is a fairly good choice. The obvious choice is Sorcerer. You could be an odder type and go for Bard.
Xabre 12-13-05, 09:21 AM	I guess I wasn't clear enough... I need something that can qualify me on the first level. Hexblade needs 4 levels before it can obtain any spells. This is something I'm only taking for a single level, but can get at least one arcane spell to qualify for disciple with. Sorcerer does seem to be the choice... possibly UA's battle sorcerer.
Ander Spectacular 12-13-05, 10:44 AM	Assassin perhaps? -AS-
Rulebook 12-13-05, 10:47 AM	Bard.
Marcus Majarra 12-13-05, 10:52 AM	I would suggest Warmage or Sorcerer.
Rulebook 12-13-05, 11:00 AM	Bard has the secondary advantage of opening up almost all your skill level caps.
eggplantm 12-13-05, 11:01 AM	Warmage will give you 1st level arcane spells (a lot of them) and allow you to cast them in light armor.
Xabre 12-13-05, 11:01 AM	Hmm. Warmage looks pretty good. It's pretty much a toss between Warmage and Battlesorcerer. The BS gives me a better hit die, but 1 less spell per day at 0 and 1st level. Same armor proficiency and cast-in-armor ability. The Battle sorcerer gets one Martial proficiency over the Warmage. The Warmage would get the Edge effect. The end result, really, becomes the spells. Warmage gets a lot of heavy duty combat spells, but considering I'll never go above 1st level, these spells will never be more than a single die of damage (maybe a few more if I take Practiced Spellcaster, or something similiar). Sorcerer, on the other hand, still gets the entire spell list to work with, and therefore might seem a better choice, because I could take more 'utility' magic (something that usually doesn't get picked by sorcerers) as things that are still worthwhile at higher levels. Still not sure where to go with this. Hmm....
Xabre 12-13-05, 11:05 AM	Bard has the secondary advantage of opening up almost all your skill level caps. I admit that I love Bardic Lore... though it'll always be a very low check modifier as level 1. Not enough spells to really be worth it, with only ever cantrips. Plus I'm not big on the other powers.
Rulebook 12-13-05, 11:07 AM	Bards cast in light armor. get almost all skills. get 6+ skill points. they get 2 good saves. a d6 hit die. Bardic Knowledge. BArdic Music (Facinate) you wont be spellcasting that much anyway, so go for whats going to be useful to you
Dracspero 12-13-05, 11:38 AM	Go Sorcerer. Take True Strike and Featherfall as your first level spells. No somatic components=no ASF. Wear your plate mail. Cast True Strike. Then full power attack with your 2-handed weapon with your high strength. In addition, that one level of sorcerer will allow you to use wands and staffs with all the wizard/sorcerer spells. AND you'll have a familiar with a boat-load of hitpoints :-)
Xabre 12-13-05, 11:39 AM	Bards cast in light armor. get almost all skills. get 6+ skill points. they get 2 good saves. a d6 hit die. Bardic Knowledge. BArdic Music (Facinate) you wont be spellcasting that much anyway, so go for whats going to be useful to you Well, based on your argument, All three of the classes (Battle Sorcerer, Warmage, and Bard) have light armor use. Warmage and Bard are d6, BS is d8. Bardic Lore is a plus. Warmage gets only Simple Weapons, while the Bard gets a few select weapons on the list, and the BS gets to choose one Martial weapon. Bard will get only cantrips, while BS and Warmage will have a range of first level spells to work with. Warmage will have it's full list, while the BS will only know 1 1st level spell. Yeah, the Bard will get a rediculous amount of skills and skill points... but only for that one level, really. For how I'm going to be using this character, and to get the most out of the Disciple's bonus spells, I'm gonna stick with something that gets me 1st level spells. Probably the Warmage, even though I'd like access to a martial weapon or two.
Dracspero 12-13-05, 11:49 AM	For how I'm going to be using this character, and to get the most out of the Disciple's bonus spells, I'm gonna stick with something that gets me 1st level spells. Probably the Warmage, even though I'd like access to a martial weapon or two. In your original post, you indicate you have "9 levels of a fighter-style class". Could you go into more detail as to what class? With that background I'd think you'd already be proficient in all martial weapons, armour, and shields (if not tower shield). Also note, that if your other class has spellcasting, you can apply your bonus spells to that. So if you have 9 levels of paladin, for example, you could apply the bonus spells to your paladin spells, though you'd still need to take a level in a spontaneous arcane caster class.
Xabre 12-13-05, 12:22 PM	Yeah, I guess I should be more clear. I'm taking 9 levels of Dragonkin, from Draconomicon. They only get Simple Weapon proficiency, and no Armor profs, because they get natural armor. They also have their claw/bite attacks. They get Detect Magic at will as a Supernatural effect, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't qualify for the Disciple.
Emeramber 12-13-05, 01:56 PM	Actually, you can bump your Warmage caster level to 5 by taking Practised Spellcaster. This won't affect your spell profile, just their power, but it caps out your Shocking Grasp and Burning Hands, and gives you three dice in the orbs and three Magic Missiles. You won't stack up to the real blasters, but you'll always have a true strike or a minor energy attack to fall back on.
Xabre 12-13-05, 02:01 PM	Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Between that and Draconic Power, I could do pretty well. Would Practiced Spellcaster increase my Edge?
TrajanCavalous 12-13-05, 04:05 PM	No offence but that is not a good idea. Wasting a feat so you can cast level 1 spells as a level 5 caster when your ECL is 9+? That's a waste. Forget about using those spells offensively. Casting offensive spells with 1 level of a casting class the damage, your caster level and the saves will always be too low to be worth anything when your ECL is 9 and higher. As you level more it will just get more useless. The person above who recommended True Strike and Featherfall is on the right track. You can also look at swift spells from the Complete books. Regardless if you want to make the most out of the character concentrate on spells that augment your melee ability.
Xabre 12-13-05, 04:23 PM	Well, most of the spellcasting ability I think is going to end up in the Draconic breath feat... that way all the bonus spells per day that I get from Disciple ends up become 2d6 Breath shots... more if I can use more than one spell at a time (that's my GM's call). Each Breath burst will be better than the individual spells the Warmage could throw around... and he'd still have a bunch of True Strikes if needed. The only realy better option is pure sorcerer, and take his two spells as True Strike and maybe Magic Weapon or Personal Natural Weapon Augmentation.
TrajanCavalous 12-13-05, 04:47 PM	If it's a free action to use those breaths, and I don't think it is, it's almost worth it. Otherwise I'd forget it. You use a feat and then you have to take a standard action to do that little damage? You would be better off taking the feat Arcane Strike; as a free action you use an arcane spell and for 1 round get +1 to att and +1d4 dmg per level of the spell added to all your melee attacks for that round. Otherwise take and use True Strike and Swift spells like Critical Strike. If it's a roleplaying issue then the breath attacks could indeed be fun.
Xabre 12-13-05, 04:56 PM	The major issue comes from lack of levels. I only get 1 level to work with in order to have all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple pre-epic. War Mage gets the most spells known, including true strike and a bunch of extra low-damage spells. Sorcerer only gets two spells for me to know total, Battle Sorcerer only gets me 1. Practiced Spellcaster would at least have me throwing 3d8 Orbs around for a little bit of utility damage vs creatures with elemental weaknesses/resistances. Where's Arcane Strike from?
TrajanCavalous 12-13-05, 05:20 PM	Some good points. Arcane Strike is in Complete Arcane.
BobtheBiotitan 12-13-05, 05:41 PM	I believe you are mistaken, because the complete arcane does not mention arcane strike at all. Perhaps Unearthed Arcana?
Dracspero 12-13-05, 05:42 PM	Arcane Strike requires you to be able to cast 3rd level spells (or be 5th level caster, or something like that). You're not going to be able to take it with one level of any kind of caster. Just looked at the Drgonkin, it's type isn't "Dragon", so you're okay from that perspective. Have you chosen an alignment, and if not is there any alignment restrictions for your campaign?
JStegmaier 12-13-05, 05:44 PM	I believe you are mistaken, because the complete arcane does not mention arcane strike at all. Perhaps Unearthed Arcana? Arcane Strike is, in fact, from the Complete Warrior, likely to go with the Hexblade (and other features for "gish" type characters in that book.)
TrajanCavalous 12-13-05, 06:01 PM	Oof, two mistakes. Serves me right for posting from work and going by memory. Overlooked the level 3 restriction. The guy I played was fighter 1/sorceror 6/then DD. Arcane Strike and the spell Wraithstrike is pretty sweet. Still, the gist of my point is the same; Half-Dragon and by extension Dragon Disciple are both best at melee. Keeping the focus on melee will be your best bet.
Dracspero 12-13-05, 06:02 PM	With your 7 monster levels, you may be able to immediately go into a PrC that grants spontaneous casting. I only have Complete Warrior, though, so can't check any of the other books to see if there's anything appropriate. Maybe Battle Sorcerer IS the way to go. You only have one 1st level spell known, but with better hit points, the ability to wear light armour, and the ability to use any wizard/sorcerer spell trigger (wands and staffs are fun :D) item you should be in decent shape. Note at 20th level (ECL) your BaB will only be +14, but you'll have a pretty amazing strength. Are you sure you want to spend your precious 3 feats (you'll get your 4th at 1st level DD) on breath abilities? With your Awesome strength I'd think Power Attack and Cleave would be a must. I'd also suggest Combat Reflexes and use a longspear; you'll be able to attack while flying while out of reach, you'll get your attacks of opportunity while flatfooted, and you have your claws if you have to deal with adjacent foes. Of course, I don't know how your breath abilities will work, but you'll want to compare them to the CR of the creatures you'll be fighting.
Xabre 12-13-05, 07:23 PM	Well, technically it's 9 levels of Monster... because it's a 7hd with +2 ECL. And I almost always take flaws, so I'll ahve 5 feats over the course of my Monster levels. The Draconic Breath feat says that I can sac a spell for a 2d6 breath weapon of the appropriate type... (2d6 per spell level, but I only ahve first level spells). I have to take Draconic Heritage first, so it's two spells... but Heritage gives me a skill bonus and resistance to an energy type. Note: While I don't have Sorcerer levels to take Draconic Heritage, I think I can make an arguement for Dragonkin taking it... IF I make it my first level 'ancestor' style feat. I should check if Draconomicon has any good Prestige Classes for a single level... otherwise, I think Warmage or Battlesorcerer are still what I ahve to work with. And Warmage gets me alot more magic to work with.
Feor 12-13-05, 09:07 PM	Just a thought, but Dragon Disciple needs a spontaneously casting class so that the character's natural magic can unlock his draconian background. Using this argument, you could probably convince your DM to give it to you for the Warlock's Invocations. It doesn't get you much beyond the +@ will save, but it gives you a nasty trick to toss at someone (in the form of Eldritch Blast) if you need just a drop more damage. Plus you could probably talk your DM into having the Disciples bonus spells instead give you bonus invocations.
Kothardarastrix 12-14-05, 02:40 AM	Just a thought, but Dragon Disciple needs a spontaneously casting class so that the character's natural magic can unlock his draconian background. Using this argument, you could probably convince your DM to give it to you for the Warlock's Invocations. It doesn't get you much beyond the +@ will save, but it gives you a nasty trick to toss at someone (in the form of Eldritch Blast) if you need just a drop more damage. Plus you could probably talk your DM into having the Disciples bonus spells instead give you bonus invocations. That's draconic heritage. The best choice would be to become Chaotic Evil, and choose Red Dragon; the perfect dragon. And when I reign as King of Dragons and High Priest of Garyx in my lands of scorched earth I will look beyond the fact that you are only a 1/2 dragon.
Feor 12-14-05, 07:56 AM	But wouldn't being descended from a red dragon make your heritage somewhat Draconian regardless? :P
Xabre 12-14-05, 08:08 AM	The Draconic Heritage feats normally require a sorcerer level... but if you read the entry for Dragonkin in Draconomicon, there's almost no way a GM would debate giving that race access to the Draconic Heritage feat (I'd change it to either 1st level feats, or some sort of draconic-origin race, ie: kobold). Draconic Heritage gives resistance and bonus skills. Draconic breath allows you to burn spell slots to breath your elemental breath... and considering only a single level of Warlock, the 2d6 Breath weapon/spells are more effective... but only usable so many times, instead of automatic recasting like Blast. another difference is that a breath doesn't need an attack roll, just a save.