Post/Author/DateTime	Post
viscen 12-29-07, 06:01 PM	i can't seem to find it, but ive heard that if a cleric doesn't worship a god, it is forced to worship an Alignment. is this true? i always thought a cleric worships a cause, which could stand for anything in my mind, such as people of today devote their lives to the sick, and helpless, or orphans, or even the wounded. thats what i always thought that meant by a cause.
The_Shaman 12-29-07, 06:47 PM	Er, I think clerics can worship causes and ideals, so I think the answer to your question would be no. So much the better, really: alignments were devised to be vague, inclusive and general, which doesn't make them well-suited for a cleric's dogma. LG alignment may include the causes of honor, justice, harmony, mercy, etc. Personally, I'd say that divine power should come from divine sponsors - god or gods. Getting power from adherence to a disembodied ideal and changing the world through willpower alone is the province of another class - the Ardent.
Surgo 12-29-07, 06:54 PM	A cleric is not forced to follow an alignment, or a god, or anything but a philosophy really. This is stated explicitly in the description of the class (under "Religion").
vorpo 12-29-07, 07:46 PM	He isn't forced to believe anything. However, he must have certain ideals he upholds for the purpose of determining domains that he can choose from. A deity roughly grants 3~5 domains. A cleric who doesn't worship a god must have an ideal for which a number of domains would fit (maybe 4ish). The reason is if the cleric would later gain access to another domain(s) for whatever reason (such as the epic feat, extra domain) he must choose it from that list the same way a worshiping cleric must choose from the domains of his deity. This is basically a rule to prevent a non-worshiping cleric to have access to all domains he wants.
The_Shaman 12-29-07, 08:58 PM	Heh, I thought non-deity clerics worshipped just that :P
YamiShinobi 12-30-07, 11:41 PM	He isn't forced to believe anything. However, he must have certain ideals he upholds for the purpose of determining domains that he can choose from. A deity roughly grants 3~5 domains. A cleric who doesn't worship a god must have an ideal for which a number of domains would fit (maybe 4ish). The reason is if the cleric would later gain access to another domain(s) for whatever reason (such as the epic feat, extra domain) he must choose it from that list the same way a worshiping cleric must choose from the domains of his deity. This is basically a rule to prevent a non-worshiping cleric to have access to all domains he wants. the non deity cleric, it can pull any 2 domains it wants out of it's hat, so technically a deity just gimps you, a cleric needs no god, yeah they get the spells, granted powers, and turning/rebuking, however domains like war are useless (no favored deity) spells like spiritual weapon are useless, alimgnet spells not matching thier alignment are worthless. (40% of the spells) so these guys are gimped too, people are supposed to make thier own gods. the ones in the phb are just examples. heck, you could just make your own domain, call it what you want, mix and match spells. heck, the DMG encourages class making. or altering a class to fit your concept. unearthed arcana practically tells you to gestalt (i don't have the book, i read the srd) basically gestalting is like saying, make your own class. see the messages. wizards wants us to mak our own classes, and they want them to be a little overpowered.
JulesCARV 12-31-07, 12:49 AM	It depends. In some settings, deity-less clerics are organized into centralized deity-less religions, with very explicit lists of domains, alignment auras, favored weapons, etc. For instance, in Eberron, there are many deity-less clerics, but most of them aren't just "making it up as they go along," but are rather following a deity-less religion, such as the Blood of Vol, the Silver Flame, or the Path of Light: these religions, although they don't have deities in the same sense as Dol Arrah, Kol Korran, etc, are functionally exactly equivalent: the Blood of Vol has an alignment of LE, a dagger as favored weapon, and domains of death, evil, law, and necromancer. This doesn't exclude more "unconventional" clerics, but a typical Eberron godless cleric has as much and as little freedom as a worshipper of the gods of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six. Among the unconventional clerics who don't fit established religions, godded or godless, there might be alignment-worshippers, but given that Eberron doesn't put much emphasis on alignment, I'd say they're probably not common, if any exist at all (other than a PC, of course). Unconventional Eberron clerics who don't worship an established religion certainly have very strong belief in something, though. In other settings, such as generic D&D, there's more ambiguity. Certainly, I know of no restriction to the effect that clerics without a deity have to worship an alignment. Personally, I'm fine with deity or pantheon-worshipping clerics, and I'm fine with clerics who are religious within an established non-deific religion (like the Path of Light in Eberron, or Therevada Buddhism in real life), but I'm not a big fan of "draw power from any random thing you believe in" type clerics. It's great that your character believes in universal education, but that doesn't make him a cleric with the rune and knowledge domains ;). I actually prefer having clerics whose views don't fit into any established religion be planar media (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816375), who are independent of belief entirely, rather than drawing their power from their fervent belief in any old thing. A planar medium is like a cleric, but draws power from the planes based on mastery of magical technique, not any form of belief, somewhat like a wizard. They have a fixed set of domains based on the planes, and (in my version, at least) are required to keep their knowledge (the planes) high to cast their spells. A planar medium can believe in a deity (say, the Church of Hextor wants someone who can spontaneously cast cure spells to help their armies: some clerics might learn the techniques of planar mediumship and become a spontaneously curing/rebuking planar medium while still worshipping Hextor just like Hextor-worshipping fighters, rogues, etc), or could believe in any non-deific ideal (from universal education to hobgoblin supremacy), or might not believe in anything in particular very fervently. (A planar medium has the same relationship to belief as a fighter -- he might believe in something, deific or not, very strongly, or might not believe in anything much at all, but his powers don't depend on that belief on way or another)
kalstrand 12-31-07, 04:30 PM	While its not required to follow a god I require it in my games because it prevents clerics from just picking the most advantageous domains. Clerics are powerful enough without letting players twink them by picking any 2 random domains to give them the most advantages.
vorpo 12-31-07, 05:59 PM	the non deity cleric, it can pull any 2 domains it wants out of it's hat, so technically a deity just gimps you, a cleric needs no god, yeah they get the spells, granted powers, and turning/rebuking, however domains like war are useless (no favored deity) spells like spiritual weapon are useless, alimgnet spells not matching thier alignment are worthless. (40% of the spells) so these guys are gimped too, people are supposed to make thier own gods. the ones in the phb are just examples. heck, you could just make your own domain, call it what you want, mix and match spells. heck, the DMG encourages class making. or altering a class to fit your concept. unearthed arcana practically tells you to gestalt (i don't have the book, i read the srd) basically gestalting is like saying, make your own class. see the messages. wizards wants us to mak our own classes, and they want them to be a little overpowered. Any 2 if the DM allows them. That isn't very much different from having to worship a deity. Besides, DM still has to select about 4 domains fitting your ideals that you can choose from anyway. You just dont have a patron to force/guide you into doing anything unless at your own bidding.
drunkman 12-31-07, 06:02 PM	You can have a cleric without dieties, the player handbook suggests this, but like other people suggested, I wouldn't suggest leaving a cleric completely free to choose the best domains (which would unbalance the already powerful cleric). I don't know if I'd go too far into saying clerics HAVE to pick a diety either. What I'd do is to allow a clerics to devote themselves to a "cause", but it has to be an existing organization of some sort and the "cause" has to be more specific than just an alignment. My reasoning behind this is that a lot of chaotic evil creatures hate each other, I think the cleric should be devoted to a very specific cause; a community of some sort. An example of such a cause is maybe a cleric devoting himself to a knighthood organization run by a nobles of town. They do not believe in any god, but maybe they have certain ideals or a code that suggest to aid and protect any local areas in need. Then you can work with your DM to come up with reasonable domains based on the ideals of the community. For this example community, the DM might allow you to choose from the good, law, protection, and healing domains.
vorpo 12-31-07, 06:44 PM	Hmm, I didn't suggest what I said. I was told by RPGA that was so... just in case people start thinking that's my houserule. It's not. It's RPGA rule
pigknight 01-03-08, 03:55 AM	Deity-less Cleric: I pick healing and destruction! DM: How does that work? Cleric: I heal the people I harm*srug*. DM: Is this combo legal? Cleric: By PHB yes, CoD no.
Kratch 01-03-08, 07:50 AM	By the Players handbook, a Deity-less cleric must still warship an ideal or ethos(I get the impression many people don't bother with this part, thus granting the cleric immunity from consequences of deviating from those ideals. And while it is possible to create a theme to incorporate any combination of domains, the more unusual the combination, the harder it will be to stick with the beliefs, the more risk of you losing your abilities for deviating from your beliefs.). While not specifically based on alignment, this ethos should often be influenced by the alignment the player intends to play (making the ideals you believe in have views that go against your alignment will likely end in ether alignment shifts or loss of abilities (if not both), and is really just asking for game-stopping problems. imagine a lawful good cleric who's ethos includes torturing others as a meditation ritual and the deathbound domain) as well as the domains the player intends to take. Again, while not specifically based on alignment, a deity-less clerics spells (both options and effects) are often influenced by alignment, and they still have to choose positive or negative energy influence, which the choice can be determined by alignment. So, While a deity-less cleric isn't based on alignment, the alignment does still influence the clerics choices/creation/play a fair bit.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-03-08, 11:02 AM	Deity-less Cleric: I pick healing and destruction! DM: How does that work? Cleric: I heal the people I harm*srug*. DM: Is this combo legal? Cleric: By PHB yes, CoD no. Better answer: Deity-less Cleric: I pick healing and destruction! DM: How does that work? Cleric: I'm like a paladin. I heal and protect the innocent, and destroy those who harm them. DM: Is this combo legal? Cleric: Why are you asking me? You're the DM. I showed you the rules.
Surgo 01-03-08, 12:18 PM	thus granting the cleric immunity from consequences of deviating from those ideals. What consequences? You just pick new ideals if you're really having problems with deviating from them.
pigknight 01-04-08, 01:02 AM	Well that's another way to put it. I use a DMPC gesalt fighter/cleric (death knight) that has retribution and death domains (and no, the DMPC is actually less powerful than the rest of the party).