Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KhanSemus 04-10-07, 05:24 PM	I like to try and make classes and prestige classes and made a ninja that focused more on combat (taking elements from the ninja, scout, monk, and fighter classes). Please comment and help me improve it, I realize it may be too powerful. Be nice. Combat Ninja: d6 Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Gather Info, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope; 6 + Int mod skill points Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +2 +2 +2 Sudden strike +1d6, Armor of the Wise 2nd +1 +3 +3 +3 Uncanny dodge 3rd +2 +3 +3 +3 Physical Prowess 4th +3 +4 +4 +4 Great Leap 5th +3 +4 +4 +4 Improved Sudden strike +2d6 (+1), bonus feat 6th +4 +5 +5 +5 Acrobatics +2 7th +5 +5 +5 +5 Speed climb 8th +6 +6 +6 +6 Physical Prowess 9th +6 +6 +6 +6 Improved Sudden strike +3d6 (+2) 10th +7 +7 +7 +7 Trapfinding 11th +8 +7 +7 +7 Physical Prowess 12th +9 +8 +8 +8 Acrobatics +4, evasion, 13th +9 +8 +8 +8 Sudden strike +4d6 (+3) 14th +10 +9 +9 +9 Makeshift Tools, Hide in Plain Sight 15th +11 +9 +9 +9 Bonus feat 16th +12 +10 +10 +10 Physical Prowess 17th +12 +10 +10 +10 Sudden strike +5d6 (+4) 18th +13 +11 +11 +11 Acrobatics +6 19th +14 +11 +11 +11 Physical Prowess 20th +15 +12 +12 +12 Bonus feat, Freedom of Movement Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Simple weapons, hand crossbow, kukri, shortbow, short sword, longsword, shuriken, light armor, no shields. Armor of the Wise: when only in light armor or less, add Wis bonus to AC, applies even against touch attacks or when flat-footed, lost when immobilized or helpless, when carrying shield, or medium or heavy load. Sudden Strike: when target denied Dex bonus, deal bonus damage, can be used up to 30ft away, not on creatures with concealment, discernable anatomies, or immune to critical hits, cannot be used on limbs when vitals out of reach, cannot be used to deal nonlethal damage, stacks with sneak attack. Every time Sudden Strike's damage goes up after level 1, gain a +1 to attack with the use of Sudden Strike Trapfinding: Can use Search skill to locate traps with DC higher than 20, use Disable Device on magic traps. Uncanny dodge: Retain Dex bonus to AC even when caught flat-footed or attacked by invisible opponent, still loses Dex bonus when immobilized, if already has Uncanny dodge by other class, upgrades to Improved uncanny dodge. Great leap: Always makes Jump checks as if running, and had Run feat, enabling long jumps without running start, and +4 to Jump skill, only if in light armor and carrying no more than light load. Physical Prowess: Every four levels, choose one of three bonus', which stack: Applied Force: gain +1 to Str checks to break or burst items. Combat Bearing: gain +1 to Dex checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces. Stamina Reserve: +1 to Con checks to continue running and avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march. Bonus feat(s): Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Blind-fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deft Strike, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Track, must still meet all prerequisites. Acrobatics: bonus to Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks. Speed Climb: Can climb at speed as move action with no penalty, but must begin and end round on horizontal surface, otherwise falls, needs only one free hand, only if in light armor and carrying no more than light load. Evasion: If successful Ref save would reduce damage to half, instead negates damage, only if in light armor and carrying no more than light load. Makeshift Tools: Can make Disable Device checks without a set of thieves' tools at no penalty. Hide in Plain Sight: Can use Hide skill in shadowy areas, even when being observed, only if in light armor and carrying no more than light load. Freedom of Movement: Duplicates Freedom of Movement spell, but always active, only if in light armor and carrying no more than light load. All class abilites come from the Player's Handbook v3.5, the Complete Adventurer, and the "Dead Levels" article by Kolja Raven Liquette at Wizards.com
leomunds_assistant 04-10-07, 05:34 PM	So you traded Ki Power for full attack progression and physical prowess. Is that all or is their something that i missed? If so i feel that is a bad trade on your part losing a lot of usefullness from ghost step and such. What was wrong before? If their is something i missed it is because i dont have my books :( Edit- didnt notice the bonus feats Most of those feats aren't combat oriented... I believe that they don't have freedom of movement before eithier. How is that combat oriented??
KhanSemus 04-10-07, 09:23 PM	Ok, so "combat" may have been misleading. Maybe more "physical" would be a better term. I lost the Ki line and poison, adding scout features. Mainly it is non-magical.
leomunds_assistant 04-10-07, 09:31 PM	Alright well that would make more sense. It seems a little unfair to you though. I am not sure what would balance it though. If i think of something i will post it :) Edit: thought of something. Being a physical ninja you could possibly give him the same damage reduction of a barbarian. You are losing a lot of abilities by taking out ki abilities.
Artemus 04-10-07, 09:45 PM	Uhh, I'm not sure if this changed, but this variant does have all GOOD saves. Don't know how well that trades out for ki abilities though.
leomunds_assistant 04-10-07, 09:47 PM	Didn't even notice that. Well gee thanks.. you just killed my idea :(
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 09:59 PM	Does anyone here have Rokugan CS? I remember they had a ninja who was quite competent at fighting and had a few other abilities, too.
JonnySpaz 04-12-07, 02:54 AM	Seems a little bit too powerful at first glance. Full BAB, all good saves, a class feature every level, light armor + wisdom + scaling bonus, sneaky, trapfinding. So, what exactly about this class is weak enough to justify being the most hardcore unkillable sneak force this side of magic? The class I am looking at right now looks like a gestalt monk/fighter/ninja.
3DJutsu 04-12-07, 03:23 AM	Seems a little bit too powerful at first glance. Full BAB, all good saves, a class feature every level, light armor + wisdom + scaling bonus, sneaky, trapfinding. So, what exactly about this class is weak enough to justify being the most hardcore unkillable sneak force this side of magic? The class I am looking at right now looks like a gestalt monk/fighter/ninja. The only part of monk he has in there are the all-good saves, and the class doesn't need to be justified in anything, it's a ninja. That's all the justification you'll ever need... Now for my two copper, looks good I suppose. doesn't seem too overpowering. Potent? Yes. Overpowering? Nah. Looks good to me. I wish I had this much response to my class revision. Revised the Deepwood Sniper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=826190) PrC, and I've had over 200+ views (it's in the CharaOps board too) but I've only gotten a few replies. So if some of you get the chance, would you mind leaving some commentary on mine? I'm not trying to grope for attention (too much) but I'd really like some constructive critisism in there.
The_Shaman 04-12-07, 08:29 AM	I think it is a bit on the powerful side. Compare it, for example, to the ranger: for the spells they get full sudden strike progression, they get a bundle of feats instead of combat style mastery, as well as better saves, AC bonus, and wisdom to AC in light armor. IMO the ranger is among the better balanced warrior classes. Compared to the ToB classes it might be okay, but that just means the other combat classes could use an overhaul.
starfire311 04-12-07, 08:50 AM	I think it is a bit on the powerful side. Compare it, for example, to the ranger: for the spells they get full sudden strike progression, they get a bundle of feats instead of combat style mastery, as well as better saves, AC bonus, and wisdom to AC in light armor. IMO the ranger is among the better balanced warrior classes. Compared to the ToB classes it might be okay, but that just means the other combat classes could use an overhaul. this is what I thought at 1st also, then I realized sudden strike will be nigh worthless for this class, because without the ki abilities it has no way to consistantly get it.
The_Shaman 04-12-07, 09:00 AM	Feint, items/spells, or just surprise - oh, and just in case I'd think about getting telling blow and dual-wielding kukri. If you want a truly laughable attempt at precision damage, check the Crimson Road Outlaw from Song and Silence. They get "something" that can work out only during (tam-tam-taaam!) surprise rounds. Now that's bad.
KillFrenzy 04-12-07, 09:41 AM	Ok, so "combat" may have been misleading. Maybe more "physical" would be a better term. I lost the Ki line and poison, adding scout features. Mainly it is non-magical. it still seems abit combaty to me theyre assassans their job is simple go in kill who ever you need to kill get out undetected and safe the essence of a ninja is that while some ninjas might be really good fighters theyre primary function is a swift undetected skill its unprofessional to be spotted and to get in a fight when they could of tried harder to avoid it often ninjas work solo but ti isnt uncommon for them to work in teams but either way a ninja must try their best to avoid a fight because if alone they could be killed by a better fighter or simply out numbered or even snipered by a bowman and in a team the same still applies theyre teams arent huge theyre small and stealthy not only is a ninja being caught unprofessional and dangerous but it compremises their mission,reputation and personal pride if a ninja is caught or cant avoid detecton and conflict they arent a very good ninja at all and they either will be killed or shouldnt be in the job in the first place and even ninjas who are hired to fight in wars used ambush and skirmish tactics so the same skills are required for a smooth operation and quick low casualty battle aside from that i like makeshift tools skill because it means your ninja is resourcful and i like the physical prowess and the list of bonus feats i like alot but really you should swap great fortitude for combat reflexes just to make your ninja nastier in combat and the poison use skill youve gotta have dude! it makes it safer for you to fire nasty poison **** at people which is always fun! have you no sense of fun??? no! of course not! thats why you took the best sneaky skill away! ghost step looks cool but it looks good
JonnySpaz 04-12-07, 03:21 PM	I recognize that the sudden strike won't always work, but this class is still way too good. Those amazing saves do not belong on a full BAB class with this many class features. Maybe if it had half-dead levels like the fighter it would be ok. But this class looks unbeatable.
dark_nony 04-12-07, 03:37 PM	Don't have time to ready it all, but i was lokin at the first few levels. To powerful, this class makes rogues worthless.
3DJutsu 04-12-07, 04:09 PM	Don't have time to ready it all, but i was lokin at the first few levels. To powerful, this class makes rogues worthless. Wrong, rogues still get their SA dice if their foe is flanked, SS does not gain that benefit.
LordPendragon 04-12-07, 06:12 PM	At first glance, the class looks very powerful. I'd say reducing the amount of Swift Strike, or removing some of the other class features (maybe the Fort or Will save) could bring it into balance. Also, it looks like you created your class in Notepad, then pasted it over. That's the usual cause for the random line breaks. If you did, then try re-copying it with "Word Wrap" turned off; that should make it transfer a lot more cleanly.
KhanSemus 04-15-07, 08:24 PM	Thanks for all the input. Yes, I did make it in Notepad. My basic idea in the beginning was for a sneak inside, kill, make it out even if seen. I like the idea of being able to finish a mission and survive, even without equipment. I am thinking of reducing Sudden Strike and lessening all the AC. In regards to having abilities at every level, I consider it even with barbarian or monk levels, especially since I used Dead Level abilities.
Faytte 04-15-07, 11:32 PM	No full bab class should have trap finding or a full sudden strike/sneak attack progression.
KhanSemus 04-16-07, 08:46 AM	I have certain features I want to keep, trapfinding among them. I halved the sudden strike progression and moved trapfinding to replace the 10th level bonus feat.
Relic 04-16-07, 10:54 AM	One idea to consider it to reduce their BAB to that of a rogue and then give them a class feature that grants a +1 bonus per 4 ninja levels to attack rolls made vs victims of their Sudden Strike. This makes it so their combat prowess is not the same as melee classes (fighter, ranger, war blade, etc) yet they are still deadly at what they do... ambushing and attacking from surprise. Some people use Medium save professions (at 20th level it is +9) and if having all Good saves is too "powerful" then you could give them all Medium saves, or one Good save and two Medium saves. Depending on what role you see the ninja fulfilling... if it is supposed to be an "assassin," it needs some ability to permanently kill its foe. With raise dead fairly easy to acquire (in standard D&D campaigns), being able to kill that all important target does not mean much if a couple days and a raise dead later, your assassination is negated. Some ability that makes raising the dead likely to fail, or it requires a caster level higher than the ninja's class level to raise. Other than those three points, I think the class is close to balanced with the ToB classes, or melee classes with some spellcasting ability (paladin, ranger, dusk blade, etc). If you use the [ code ] "put stuff here" [ /code] tag it is easier to format. Also, using Excel (hiding table borders) is another method that works good for formating on these forums.
JonnySpaz 04-16-07, 01:34 PM	Lowering the sudden strike progression as you have done is an excellent step in the right direction. I feel like this class is much closer to balanced now.
KhanSemus 04-16-07, 05:45 PM	I realize the best BAB and saves are too much, so I lowered the BAB bonus, and put in Relic's idea of a bonus to attack. I also changed the bonus AC from Wisdom, now instead of a monk or regular ninja's bonus points, it is merely the Wisdom bonus. AND added Combat Reflexes to the bonus feat list
JonnySpaz 04-17-07, 12:32 AM	Ok, I think that you have found the balance. Good job, this is a good class.