Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chimaera2000 03-04-05, 02:03 AM	Hey, everyone! This post came about in response to the numerous threads complaining about the overpowered nature of the cleric and druid in 3.5. If you think that these classes are balanced, then that's just fine; there's no one saying that you have to implement these changes. I personally think that there's a basis for the divine classes being too strong overall, and I think that putting some restrictions on these classes would result in greater game balance. In the latest update, I've divided this post into three sections: a brief summary of changes first, my reasons for the proposed changes second, and a full, "official" list of changes (as it would appear in the Player's Handbook) third. If all you want to know is what the actual changes are, you only need to read the first section; the other two are only there for clarification and flavor, plus the last section allows you to copy and paste anything in the fix that you might like. Comments and criticism are always welcome; it's always great to get feedback on works like this, and your thoughts and ideas often help to make this work even better. So, without further ado.... Summary of Changes to the Cleric and Druid 1) Clerics and druids have the same number of spells per day as the wizard. 2) Clerics and druids no longer know all of the spells on their spell list automatically. Instead, they learn spells in the same manner as wizards, using holy or unholy scripture or shamanic fetishes (as appropriate) rather than spellbooks. They also qualify to take the Spell Mastery feat. Spells that divine casters can cast spontaneously (such as cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spells) are always considered to be known. 3) The Natural Spell feat is now treated as a metamagic feat that takes up a spell slot one level higher. 4) The spells divine favor (Clr 1) and righteous might (Clr 5) now follow the 3.5 Player's Handbook errata, which can be downloaded here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) 5) The divine power spell (Clr 4) causes you to lose your spellcasting ability (including your ability to use items such as wands) while the spell is active, like the spell Tenser's transformation (Sor/Wiz 6) 6) The destruction spell (Clr 7) is raised to an eighth-level spell (Clr 8). 7) The miracle spell (Clr 9) now requires a cost of 5,000 XP to cast. Alternatively, you could change the wish spell to be like miracle in that it costs no XP to simulate spells, but does incur the XP costs for more powerful requests. 8) The polymorph spell (Sor/Wiz 4) has been changed as follows: you no longer gain the physical ability scores of you new form; you lose the racial bonuses and penalties to physical ability scores of your old form, but gain the racial bonuses and penalties of the new one; you cannot gain more of a natural armor bonus than your caster level; and you retain the creature type of your old form and do not gain the creature type of your new one. Reasons for the Proposed Changes *Note: Feel free to skip if you're only interested in the rules themselves. My rationale for these changes is included mainly for clarification purposes, though I'm certainly not going to stop you from reading if you're interested. ;) The overall purpose of this fix is to reduce the divine casters' overall power by scaling back their spellcasting ability without changing their base statistics, such as hit die, saves, or base attack bonus. In my mind, it's not the classes' base statistics that make them overpowered; if that were the case, then the monk and paladin (which have better base stats overall), would be overpowered as well, which does not seem to be the case. Rather, the classes are considered overpowered because their base stats are supplemented by divine spellcasting, which I believe is the core problem with these classes. With that in mind, based on my own experiences and feedback from the message boards, I went through and did the individual changes for these reasons: 1) Clerics and druids cast only as many spells per day as a wizard can in order to balance these classes with wizards. As it stands, even factoring in spells used for healing, clerics and druids still have more than enough spells left over to conceivably dominate play. When parties have access to wands of cure light wounds and the like for between-combat healing, this becomes all the more obvious, especially at higher-level play. A side benefit of this is that it standardizes the D & D magic system and also helps to make the sorceror more unique as a spellcaster. 2) Overall, it's unfair that the wizard is required to spend time and money to expand their spell selection while the cleric and druid automatically know all of their spells for free. After all, wizards are supposed to be the most versatile casters, yet the cleric and druid almost always know more spells. Besides, the rationale in the 3.5 Player's Handbook for the divine casters knowing all of their spells is this: From the 3.5 SRD: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically. It's a fairly poor rationale, since you can easily say, "What, and a wizard wouldn't?" 3) The Natural Spell feat is good thematically, but too strong mechanically. After all, a high-level druid could simply spend the entire day in bear form (or the like), yet still retain full spellcasting ability. Under the core rules, a druid would be crazy not to take this feat. Like 3.0 haste, if a spell or ability is so good that every character needs to take it, then the thing requires some scrutiny. Natural Spell doesn't hold up all that well under examination, since it allows a core druid to outfight a fighter while still casting spells without penalty. Natural Spell as a metamagic feat works like Still Spell for arcane casters; it lets you overcome a serious disadvantage (like the inability to cast in wild shape or in armor, respectively), but your spellcasting pays a price for it. 4) Divine favor and righteous might have been changed for balance reasons, and because it's officially supported by Wizards of the Coast. 5) Divine power flat-out needed to be changed. It's the source of more "overpowered cleric" arguments that I could count, since it allows you to transform into a fighter of your level with no reduction in your spellcasting. Under the changes, it now works like Tenser's transformation in that it's great when you need it, but you at least need to consider the drawbacks when you cast the spell. 6) The spell level of destruction was raised because, overall, it's better than its arcane equivalent, finger of death, which is also a 7th level spell. This goes against the typical trend of divine spells, which tend to require higher spell slots to do the same thing as arcane spells, yet tend to be a bit stronger as a result. For example, look at flame strike; it requires a higher-level spell slot than its arcane equivalent fireball, yet it's still slightly more powerful. The change to destruction allows it to follow this trend and help game balance. 7) Miracle has been changed to include an XP cost because it's designed to be the arcane equivalent of wish, yet it doesn't suffer the same disadvantages (and isn't arcane magic supposed to be better overall than divine?). The XP requirement standardizes it with wish and also stifles some of the arguments that "a cleric can do anything that a wizard can and can do it better." The alternate system of allowing wish to not incur an XP cost for simulating spells (in effect, making it like miracle) is another option. Really, it depends on your opinion of wish. Either system does the same thing in that it puts the two spells on a level playing field with one another, while still leaving wish to be better overall (as it should be). 8) I did some basic changes to polymorph as it applied to druids, trying to address the concern that druids could completely ignore their physical ability scores by wild shaping, encouraging min-maxing. This is far from a complete address of the polymorph problem (I'd encourage you to go to the link that PhaedrusXY provided if that's what you're looking for), but it helps balance a druid's wild shape, and that's all that really counts, seeing as how this is the Comprehensive Divine Caster Fix.... ;) Official List of Changes Where applicable, appropriate changes are noted in bold. Chapter Three: Classes Table: Cleric Spells per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 3 1+1 — — — — — — — — 4 2+1 — — — — — — — — 4 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — — 4 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — — 4 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 Table: Druid Spells per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 3 1 — — — — — — — — 4 2 — — — — — — — — 4 2 1 — — — — — — — 4 3 2 — — — — — — — 4 3 2 1 — — — — — — 4 3 3 2 — — — — — — 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — — 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — — 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Cleric Spells: A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below). To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a cleric may know any number of spells. To prepare spells, a cleric must meditate and study from his scripture (see below). Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. While studying, the cleric decides which spells to prepare. Scripture: A cleric must study her scripture each day to prepare her spells as form of divine inspiration. Besides general teachings about her religion, a scripture also functions like a wizard's spellbook. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her scripture, except for read magic, and any spell that the cleric can cast spontaneously from an appropriate spell slot. A cleric begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level cleric spells plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Wisdom bonus the cleric has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new cleric level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new cleric level) for her scripture. At any time, a cleric can also add spells found in other cleric’s scriptures to her own, provided that cleric could cast those spells normally. Druid Spells: A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A druid must choose and prepare her spells in advance, similar to clerics (see below). To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a druid’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the druid’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a druid can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Druid. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. A druid prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place (though see Spontaneous Casting, below), and uses tomes or shamanic foci rather than scripture. A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily preparation. Fetish: Druids use fetishes, objects inscribed with magical writings, in order to prepare spells. Functionally, this works the same as a cleric's scripture, though its form may be different. If a druid decides that her a book functions as her fetish, she uses it in the exact same manner as a cleric uses his scripture. However, if a druid decides to use objects other than books to serve as fetishes, then assume that these objects must have a combined volume of one cubic foot for every hundred pages that would normally be filled in a cleric's scripture. The cost for scribing the writings onto a fetish is the same that it would normally cost to scribe the same writings into a cleric's scripture. Objects used a fetishes cannot be designed to fulfill a purpose other than to prepare spells; for example, you cannot use a scimitar or a grappling hook as a fetish. Typical fetishes include stones, hides, feathers, or bones. Chapter Five: Feats Natural Spell [Metamagic] You can cast spells while in a wild shape. Prerequisites: Wild shape ability Benefit: A natural spell can be cast while in a wild shape. A natural spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level. Special: You can use any material components or focuses that you possess to cast a natural spell, even if such items are melded within your current form. Spell Mastery: [Special] Prerequisite: Wizard, cleric, or druid level 1st. Benefit: Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier for a wizard, or your Wisdom modifier for a cleric or druid, that you already know. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook. Normal: Without this feat, you must use a spellbook to prepare all your spells, except read magic or spells that you can cast spontaneously. Sudden Natural Spell [Metamagic] (from Complete Arcane, optional) You can cast spells in a wild shape without special preparation. Benefit: Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Natural Spell feat to any spell you can cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Natural Spell normally if you have it. Chaper Ten: Magic PREPARING DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for divine spells is Wisdom. To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell’s level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom. Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells. Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell. Divine spellcasters require scripture or fetishes like wizards require spellbooks. However, such a character’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers have separate spell lists. Spell Slots: The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. Recent Casting Limit: As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared. Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells: A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher.. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity either spontaneously casts cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along. Spontaneous Casting of Summon Nature’s Ally Spells: A druid can spontaneously cast a summon nature’s ally spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. The divine energy of the spell that the summon nature’s ally spell substitutes for is converted into the summon spell as if that spell had been prepared all along. DIVINE MAGICAL WRITINGS Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Any character with the Spellcraft skill can attempt to decipher the divine magical writing and identify it. However, only characters who have the spell in question (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll. NEW DIVINE SPELLS Clerics and druids gain new spells in much the same manner as wizards; they gain two spells known each time they gain a level, and they can learn more through copying from scrolls, other scriptures or fetishes (as appropriate), or through independent research. For exact rules on this, refer to the previous section on arcane spells. Chapter 11: Spells Spell Descriptions Destruction Necromancy [Death] Level: Clr 8 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude partial Spell Resistance: Yes This spell instantly slays the subject and consumes its remains (but not its equipment and possessions) utterly. If the target’s Fortitude saving throw succeeds, it instead takes 10d6 points of damage. The only way to restore life to a character who has failed to save against this spell is to use true resurrection, a carefully worded wish spell followed by resurrection, or miracle. Focus: A special holy (or unholy) symbol of silver marked with verses of anathema (cost 500 gp). Divine Favor Evocation Level: Clr 1, Pal 1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 minute Calling upon the strength and wisdom of a deity, you gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +3). The bonus doesn’t apply to spell damage. Divine Power Evocation Level: Clr 4 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level. While this spell is in effect, you lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list. Miracle Evocation Level: Clr 9 Components: V, S, XP; see text Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede. A miracle can do any of the following things. Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains). Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower. Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity. Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects. Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following. Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting. Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error. Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster. In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused. Especially powerful requests, likewise, may be refused by the deity. A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost: 5,000 XP Polymorph Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), nor can you gain more natural armor than your caster level, to a maximum of 15 HD or natural armor at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. You retain your own creature type and subtype when you change form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the racial Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses and penalties of the new form but loses its own racial bonuses and penalties to physical ability scores. It retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. Material Component: An empty cocoon. Righteous Might Transmutation Level: Clr 5 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level (D) This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and a +2 size bonus to Constitution. You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your natural armor. You gain damage reduction 3/evil (if you normally channel positive energy) or damage reduction 3/good (if you normally channel negative energy). At 12th level this damage reduction becomes 6/evil or 6/good, and at 15th level it becomes 9/evil or 9/good (the maximum). Your size modifier for AC and attacks changes as appropriate to your new size category. This spell doesn’t change your speed. Determine space and reach as appropriate to your new size. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, you attain the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using your increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If you fail, you are constrained without harm by the materials enclosing you— the spell cannot crush you by increasing your size. All equipment you wear or carry is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them). Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. There you have it. Questions, comments, and criticism are all welcome.
Jayr 03-04-05, 10:22 AM	:clap: I like the new stuff for the alignment, protection, and war domains, as well as the natural spell fix. I think the old luck domain was more interesting, though. Divine Power, good, it definitely needed the errata. Please post more!
Nyferto 03-05-05, 05:49 AM	Not a fan, but you completely missed the inconsistant Polymorph rules that don't care so much about Natural spell.
Chimaera2000 03-07-05, 10:46 PM	Would you mind explaining that a bit more? I took a look over the polymorph rules, but I'm not sure exactly where Natural Spell fits into that.
Chimaera2000 03-13-05, 06:23 AM	Thought I'd give this a bump, considering all of the "clerics are overpowered" threads floating around.
Chimaera2000 03-29-05, 02:50 PM	Would anyone be interested in playtesting some of these proposed changes? I'll be doing so with my cleric over the summer, but I'd love to hear any other opinions and results of these changes.
Darken 03-29-05, 03:03 PM	Would anyone be interested in playtesting some of these proposed changes? I'll be doing so with my cleric over the summer, but I'd love to hear any other opinions and results of these changes.I believe I stated the following in another thread, but it's probably worth mentioning again. When you are seeking ways to "fix" a class, you should do so base on the preceived problem of the class. The common understanding or complains as to why Clerics and Druids are too powerful is not because of their spells, but rather their all-around effectiveness and the lack of significant weakness. Their original niche, which is Divine spellcasting, should not be tempered as much; maybe a very slight adjustment on some particular spells, that's all. One should focus on two things when trying to "fix" a class: 1, Emphasize their niche by reducing their effectiveness elsewhere. For Clerics and Druids, their originally intended niche would be "Divine spellcasting", and thus one would fix them by starting with "reducing their power other than Divine spellcasting. For example, HD, BAB, SV, class features, weapon/armor proficiencies, and so on. Then, find out if there's any spell that easily circumvent these reduction, and amend those. 2, Give them a significant weakness. For Clerics and Druids, they do not have significant weaknesses as classes when compared to the others. Thus you may try to adjust some parameters, for example lowering HD or SV, removal of defensive class features, armor proficiencies, and so on. Then, as before, find out if there's any spell that easily circumvent these removals, and amend those.
Rogue Newb 03-29-05, 03:10 PM	I'll get our game's newb to start playtesting that because, he sucks, and we need a cleric.
fractal 03-29-05, 04:00 PM	I believe I stated the following in another thread, but it's probably worth mentioning again. When you are seeking ways to "fix" a class, you should do so base on the preceived problem of the class. The common understanding or complains as to why Clerics and Druids are too powerful is not because of their spells, but rather their all-around effectiveness and the lack of significant weakness. Their original niche, which is Divine spellcasting, should not be tempered as much; maybe a very slight adjustment on some particular spells, that's all. One should focus on two things when trying to "fix" a class: 1, Emphasize their niche by reducing their effectiveness elsewhere. For Clerics and Druids, their originally intended niche would be "Divine spellcasting", and thus one would fix them by starting with "reducing their power other than Divine spellcasting. For example, HD, BAB, SV, class features, weapon/armor proficiencies, and so on. Then, find out if there's any spell that easily circumvent these reduction, and amend those. 2, Give them a significant weakness. For Clerics and Druids, they do not have significant weaknesses as classes when compared to the others. Thus you may try to adjust some parameters, for example lowering HD or SV, removal of defensive class features, armor proficiencies, and so on. Then, as before, find out if there's any spell that easily circumvent these removals, and amend those. This is a nice thought, however, consider PrC's for Clerics, especially - they inherit only the Cleric spellcasting. By fixing the spells, he automatically fixes all of these PrC's simultaneously. If he instead lowered the Cleric HD/Saves/BAB, a Cleric 5/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 (or whatever) simply wouldn't care very much. Divine Power also overwrites the old BAB anyway, so there's not too much point to lowering Cleric BAB and expecting that to significantly limit them in combat.
Darken 03-29-05, 06:43 PM	Spells like Divine Power is why after each of those points, I also included "...then search for spells that can easily circumvent these changes..." clause after. As for PrCs, it's easy to deal with. If you have the premise of Cleric or Druid having a lower HD, BAB, SV, or whatever, a "Cleric" or "Druid" PrC does does not specifically provide reason for better growth would simply contiune the lowered progression as well. For example if you lower Cleric HD to d6, most of the PrC designed for Clerics would have d6 to start with. A PrC designed for Fighter/Cleric might be able to retain a d10 or d8 HD as an exception, for example.
Chimaera2000 04-06-05, 05:53 PM	I'll get our game's newb to start playtesting that because, he sucks, and we need a cleric. Thanks, but do go easy on the guy. :) If you could let me know how that turns out, though, that would be great. I believe I stated the following in another thread, but it's probably worth mentioning again. Darken brought up a concern, so let's see if I can address it (or at least explain the theory behind my fix). When you are seeking ways to "fix" a class, you should do so base on the preceived problem of the class. The common understanding or complains as to why Clerics and Druids are too powerful is not because of their spells, but rather their all-around effectiveness and the lack of significant weakness. Their original niche, which is Divine spellcasting, should not be tempered as much; maybe a very slight adjustment on some particular spells, that's all. One should focus on two things when trying to "fix" a class: 1, Emphasize their niche by reducing their effectiveness elsewhere. For Clerics and Druids, their originally intended niche would be "Divine spellcasting", and thus one would fix them by starting with "reducing their power other than Divine spellcasting. For example, HD, BAB, SV, class features, weapon/armor proficiencies, and so on. Then, find out if there's any spell that easily circumvent these reduction, and amend those. 2, Give them a significant weakness. For Clerics and Druids, they do not have significant weaknesses as classes when compared to the others. Thus you may try to adjust some parameters, for example lowering HD or SV, removal of defensive class features, armor proficiencies, and so on. Then, as before, find out if there's any spell that easily circumvent these removals, and amend those. I can see the point that you're trying to make, but this is what I've seen from the arguments against the cleric and druid. Their lack of weakness is argued, and their having good saves and decent Hit Die and BAB is argued. However, with that in mind, we could look at a class like the paladin or monk. Looking purely at stats, both of these classes typically have even better saves than the divine casters, with the monks gaining more attacks and the paladin getting better Hit Die and BAB. On top of that, both of these classes receive a number of immunities that neither of the divine casters can really compare to. However, neither the monk nor the paladin is really considered broken, despite their better base defenses. Rather, the cleric and druid are considered broken because they can augment their defenses with spells. With that in mind, I'd like to fix the divine classes by focussing on their spellcasting, rather than on their base statistics. As fractal noted, a pleasant side-effect of this is that it fixes all of the druid and cleric PrC's at once, rather than having to fix each one individually. In my fix, I started with the most glaring problems with the druid and cleric, namely Natural Spell and individually too powerful spells of the cleric. I monkeyed around a bit with some of the domains, too, to provide them with more level-dependent benefits to give a reason not to just hope into a PrC. After that, I took a look at both of these classes' spellcasting. Comparing them to wizards, both of these classes can cast more spells per day than a wizard (which sets off some warning bells), but then both the cleric and druid know more as well! Factoring in the cleric's domains, a cleric can cast nearly as many spells per day as a sorceror, while still knowing every single spell on their spell list. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is. As such, I made the cleric and druid more like divine wizards. Their spellcasting progression is now the same, but the divine casters trade a weaker spell list for better base stats. In my mind, it's a fair trade-off, especially when you take the cleric's domain spells out of the picture. Well, there you are. That's the theory behind the fix. I can still see where your argument is coming from, but hopefully this can help show where mine is coming from, too.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-05, 06:04 PM	This is an interesting idea, but you should probably address the Polymorph line of spells, as well. Rich Burlew (writer of Order of the Stick, and game designer) has a detailed system of changes for the Polymorph spells on his webpage here: http://www.giantitp.com/function.html Personally, I'd prefer to power up the melee characters a bit, and that's what I do in games I run (I have a bunch of houserules for this). But this is certainly another option.
Chimaera2000 04-09-05, 04:55 AM	This is an interesting idea, but you should probably address the Polymorph line of spells, as well. Rich Burlew (writer of Order of the Stick, and game designer) has a detailed system of changes for the Polymorph spells on his webpage here: http://www.giantitp.com/function.html Personally, I'd prefer to power up the melee characters a bit, and that's what I do in games I run (I have a bunch of houserules for this). But this is certainly another option. I can see what people meant by the polymorph rules needing to be fixed now. I'll have to take a look at that in a couple of weeks when I have more time on my hands. As it applies to druids under my fix, at least they can't stay in that dire bear form all day without sacrificing spell power (in my mind, it's like asking an arcane caster if they'd be willing to wear armor if it meant they had to apply Still Spell to all of their spells). Thanks for the link, by the way.
Nyferto 04-09-05, 07:09 AM	Stop Polymorph from giving the type of the creature (and sub type) and you stop a bunch of Polymorph issues. Grant a subtype like [Altered] so they can't be victim to spells that effect their standard form (or their new form) and you've got a balanced mechanism. Animal Growth and Wildshape is one of the more broken applications, as is getting a hoarde of followers, using Animal Shape, Animal Growth, Awaken Mass (Rapid spell) to buff them all up. You might also want to change the domain spell lists, and expand how Clerics/Druids record their spells.
Lina_Inverse 04-09-05, 07:19 AM	your not fixing the problem. no one has problems with divine spellcasting. we have problems with clerics being a combat god,which this doesnt fix.they still have the best list of combat spells,they still have the good BAB/HD and saves. and druids being the games best fighters hands down,which with your fixs they would still be,merely there now capped at lvl8 spells.
Chimaera2000 04-09-05, 07:57 PM	Stop Polymorph from giving the type of the creature (and sub type) and you stop a bunch of Polymorph issues. Grant a subtype like [Altered] so they can't be victim to spells that effect their standard form (or their new form) and you've got a balanced mechanism. Animal Growth and Wildshape is one of the more broken applications, as is getting a hoarde of followers, using Animal Shape, Animal Growth, Awaken Mass (Rapid spell) to buff them all up. You might also want to change the domain spell lists, and expand how Clerics/Druids record their spells Thanks for the suggestion. Again, I'll look into the polymorph issue when I have some more time freed up to do the issue justice. In response to the domain spell lists, under my fix, clerics simply do not gain domain spells. I'll clarify it a bit to say that they don't know the domain spells, either. I'll expand on how they record the spells later (it'll be cool flavor-wise, if nothing else). your not fixing the problem. no one has problems with divine spellcasting. we have problems with clerics being a combat god,which this doesnt fix.they still have the best list of combat spells,they still have the good BAB/HD and saves. and druids being the games best fighters hands down,which with your fixs they would still be,merely there now capped at lvl8 spells. Well, to be fair, I have read a lot of complaints on this board about divine spellcasting. Some of the most common issues are that they can cast in armor with no penalty, knowing more spells than a wizard and being able to cast more per day, individually overpowered spells like divine power, destruction, and miracle, and the cleric's ability to steal other classes' thunder through domain spells. While I don't see the first as being a problem, this fix tries to address the other issues. Scaling back the more potent cleric self-buffs alone means that they can't be combat gods. They still have their base statistics, yes, but if that were a measure of combat effectiveness alone, then the paladin and monk would be so strong that no player would ever be allowed to play them. Rather, the cleric and druid are strong because they have decent combat statistics which are supplemented by divine spellcasting, and it's the latter issue that I wanted to address with this fix. As for druids, I still need to examine the polymorph rules, since I'm somewhat unfamiliar with them myself. However, in all but the highest levels of play (and even then, to some extent), it is still a considerable trade-off for a druid to have every spell that they can cast be affected by Natural Spell. The analogy that I keep trying to drive home is that it's akin to a wizard using Still Spell for all of their spells in order to cast in armor; despite the considerable strength it brings, it really, really hurts your spellcasting. Besides, I'm not sure how many druid players would want to give up shapechange, which is in a lot of ways superior to wild shape, if I understand it correctly.
RadicalTaoist 04-09-05, 10:21 PM	Allow me to offer my suggestions as alternatives: Cleric: Lose heavy armor proficiency d6 hit die (no need to fix the PrCs in my opinion, except particular examples like RSoP) No more than 4 spells per day for each level. No bonus domain spell slots A great number of spells are granted by domains but no longer appear on the base Cleric spell list. These would include but not be limited to Righteous Might, Divine Power, Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos, Destruction, Implosion, Earthquake, and Finger of Death. Others are pending. You may prepare domain spells in your normal spell slots. All spells that normally posses "Touch" range in the Healing Domain spell list now have a range of "Close" (25 ft. +5 per caster level) As per your idea, Clerics need holy texts of prayer to prepare their spells, like a wizard's spellbook. A feat named Oratory works for clerics exactly like Spell Mastery works for wizards (you memorize your prayers in spoken form) except using your Wisdom modifier rather than Intelligence. Clerics can copy spells from the texts of other Clerics without any cost if the other Clerics willingly cooperate in the sharing. Divine Power inflicts a -6 penalty to caster level and Use Magic Device checks for its duration. Righteous Might inflicts a -8 penalty. The two penalties stack. This may render a cleric unable to cast certain levels of spells. (Note: In my game, rather than completely deny all spellcasting ability, Tenser's Transformation inflicts a -10 penalty of the sort described above). Druid: Retain d8 HD, but poor Fortitude save ( No more than 3 spells per day for each level All wild shape durations last for 1 round/level initially. A druid can extend the duration of her wildshape by lowering her effective druid level regarding the limit on HD of the form assumed. If the druid lowers her effective level by 4, the duration increases to 1 minute per druid level. If she lowers her effective level by 8, the duration increases to 10 minutes per druid level. If she lowers her effective level by 12, the duration increases to its maximum of 1 hour per druid level. For example: A 10th level druid could wild shape into a creature of 7-10 HD for 10 rounds, a creature of 3-6 HD for 10 minutes, or a creature of 1-2 HD for 100 minutes (nearly two hours). A 20th level druid could wild shape into a creature of up to 8 HD for 20 hours at a stretch. If wildshaped into a higher HD form for a lower duration while already wildshaped, the earlier wildshape is surpressed until the newer wildshape's duration ends (i.e., if you're a rat and you turn into a dire wolf for 10 rounds, at the end of those rounds you'll become a rat again). All other wildshaping rules remain the same. Durations and the ability to extend them remain the same for all wildshape abilities, including elemental wildshape, wildshape forms granted by feats (such as Draconic Wildshape), and wildshape forms granted by Prestige Classes Druids do not automatically know all the spells on their list. They prepare spells from inscriptions and totems. This works the same as Cleric acquisition outlined above (including the Oratory feat) except that Druidic materials cost nothing and weight one-tenth as much where carrying capacity is concerned. The feat Natural Spell does not exist. The feat Nonverbal Spell from the Planar Handbook is allowed, as are the feats Sudden Silent and Sudden Still from Complete Arcane. Allow a feat which grants a druid the ability to use one weapon he is proficient with outside of normal druid proficiencies without violating his spiritual oaths.
Drachasor 04-11-05, 10:39 AM	Perhaps Natural Spell should just be changed so that it can be used 3/day, or that you can expend a Wild Shape to use it 3 times a day. -Drachasor
Chimaera2000 04-28-05, 06:35 PM	Hey! I just finished off some fairly big revisions to my original post. The content has stayed much the same, though I've updated some of the flavor on cleric's scriptures and druid's shamanci foci (now called "fetishes"), as well as giving a slightly rebalanced version of polymorph, updating Spell Mastery to be taken by clerics and druids, and creating Sudden Natural Spell as a bonus feat. The main thing I did was reorganize everything into three sections: summary of changes, reasons for changes, and the changes as they would appear in the 3.5 Player's Handbook. If anyone notices any errors or things I missed in the original post, please point them out, since this was all thrown together pretty quickly. Comments on the hopefully "complete" fix are welcomed and encouraged.
Chimaera2000 05-09-05, 06:18 PM	Did some miscellaneous editing and added in an idea regarding miracle and wish that my DM suggested.
Chimaera2000 05-14-05, 06:50 PM	Right now, I'm thinking of what to do about the paladin and ranger. I'm not saying that these classes' spellcasting is too powerful, only that they might bear some changes if one was using this new system for clerics and druids. I'm debating the merits of these approaches: 1) Changing paladins and rangers to cast like wizards (though using their normal spell progression, obviously). 2) Making them spontaneous casters like the hexblade, with limited spells known. 3) Leaving them as is. Does anyone else have ideas about this?
Pax 05-14-05, 09:15 PM	Just use the Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger classes in Unearthed Arcana. Poof, problem solved. ^_^
Arterion 05-15-05, 09:02 PM	I think you're going about this the wrong way. Three primary casting classes are Cleric, Druid, and Wizard. Since spellcasting is considered their primary feature, drop them all to the level of the Wizard (worst BAB, good will, worst hit die, must learn spell, etc.) Then consider how much more powerful Wizard spells are than Cleric/Druid spells and start bumpting up their respective effectiveness until they're balanced in power level.
LordHell 05-15-05, 09:17 PM	I like your changes. I don't think spellcasting is the primary feature of the Cleric or Druid. I think their original intent was to be HALF WAY between melee and spellcasting. I think their base stats are fine, but it's their spellcasting ability that needs to be reduced - which is exactly what you've done. Making the Cleric and Druid have poor stats just make sthem a different kind of Wizard and Sorcerer. The classes that should be pure spellcasters are the Wizard and Sorcerer - any other class that can cast spells as good (if not better) than them needs to be seriously looked at, along with their ability to cast Arcane spells through domains.
JahellTheBard 05-16-05, 10:50 AM	Ok, cleric may seem stronger than other classes ... but has a lot of great limitation that arcane caster has not ... Number of spell ... if you play a cleric usually you spend a lot of your spells to cure or restore other players ... no great fun for you ... You have to give up a lot of spell if they have an allignement descriptor opposed to your deity ... at least if you play a correct Cleric .. and your faith usually prevents you from doing just what you want ... Most of divine spells are limited in effects, much less effective than wizard spells, compared level by level .. most are created just defensive ... and during fight you must spend most of your time trying to save your fellow players ... A cleric with low h.p.,no heavy armour use, few spell will have to leave all wounded players die ... no chance to survive to opportunity attacks ... and he suffers a lot of them ... Divine power seems to strong to you ... but is a 4 level spell ... it HAS to be strong ... just try to compare it with a similar 4 level mage spell ... like an empowerer fireball ... something list (10D6 * 1.50) ... 50 damage all over an area with no risk of retaliation .. very long range ... to see that Divine Power is non a great deal, after all. What you are creating is a sort of NPC, something than no one will play ... no magic, no fight abilities, no skills ... even the weak bard seems quite better ... at least more skills, more R.P. fun ... nearly no spells lost for cure ..
DDogwood 05-16-05, 11:58 AM	I like these changes, but I think that the problem of Clerics/Druids may be a little more complicated than this sometimes. My impression is that these classes were intentionally made a little more powerful than other classes to compensate for the fact that they are supposed to spend a lot of time healing other PCs (boring!), like JahelltheBard pointed out. The problem, of course, is that lots of power gamers choose the classes and try to avoid the role of party healer. This can be a good RP opportunity (I know one character who hid the fact that she had druid levels from the other PCs, because she hated healing), but it betrays the purpose of the game. I think that I would implement these changes if I was concerned about a power gamer 'abusing' the classes. On the other hand, I've played in many games where we didn't have a party healer because no-one wanted to play that role - in which case, I think the power boost serves as an incentive for players.
Maraxus 05-16-05, 03:34 PM	I say about "Clerics are overpowered.": Take the divine metamagic away! (Divine) Perisistent spell is what makes Divine favor and righteous might overpowered. Furthermore, point 4 looks quite good, I will think about that, if somebody wants to play a druid.
Chimaera2000 05-24-05, 05:34 PM	Since it's been a while since I've posted, it looks like there's quite a few posts to respond to. Brace yourselves for a long post! Just use the Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger classes in Unearthed Arcana. Poof, problem solved. ^_^ Well, at least someone's suggested something for the paladin and ranger. :P For those of us who adore our twenty-level divine fighters, though, what do you think should be done about the spellcasting of paladins and rangers under this fix? Again, it's not so much that they have to be changed, it's just wondering if I should standardize them with this new system. I think you're going about this the wrong way. Three primary casting classes are Cleric, Druid, and Wizard. Since spellcasting is considered their primary feature, drop them all to the level of the Wizard (worst BAB, good will, worst hit die, must learn spell, etc.) Then consider how much more powerful Wizard spells are than Cleric/Druid spells and start bumpting up their respective effectiveness until they're balanced in power level. This suggestion is similar to the ones that Darken and Lina_Inverse posted earlier, and I'm sure it'll come up again. However, though you can try to rebalance the classes in this manner, I don't think it's the best way to go about fixing them. Let's say, hypothetically, that you decide to fix the cleric and druid by giving them a d6 Hit Die. Many people have suggested this as a balanced solution; now, they can't be overwhelming in combat because of their poor HP, and it makes their poor Reflex save a more obvious weakness. On top of that, let's say that because of their huge numbers of spells known and spells per day, we'll drop them to a low Fortitude save. Now, with these drastic changes, surely the cleric and druid are balanced, aren't they? Well, let's see which problems still remain: 1) Clerics can still steal the spells of other classes through domains. 2) Druids can still outfight a fighter via Natural Spell, give up no spellcasting ability, and can more or less ignore their physical stats since their animal form completely overrides them. 3) Divine power, destruction, and miracle are still unchanged and thumbing their noses at their arcane counterparts. 4) Even with these lowered saves and Hit Die, clerics and druids are still better off than the wizard! It's the last point in particular that really makes me wonder. One could make a pretty fair argument that divine spells being weaker is already balanced because they can be cast in armor; everything else used to make up for "weaker" divine spells is really overcompensating. However, the next logical step (giving divine casters the exact same saves, Hit Die, and even base attack bonus as wizards) is really a step back in terms of class balance. After all, classes should be balanced, but they also should be fun! By balancing the divine classes through their statistics, you're stripping away a big part of their class concept; namely, their ability to hold their own in a fight. LordHell sums this all up nicely: I don't think spellcasting is the primary feature of the Cleric or Druid. I think their original intent was to be HALF WAY between melee and spellcasting. I think their base stats are fine, but it's their spellcasting ability that needs to be reduced - which is exactly what you've done. Making the Cleric and Druid have poor stats just make sthem a different kind of Wizard and Sorcerer. The classes that should be pure spellcasters are the Wizard and Sorcerer - any other class that can cast spells as good (if not better) than them needs to be seriously looked at, along with their ability to cast Arcane spells through domains. To sum up, though it's possible to balance the cleric and druid by reducing their base stats, it's not the best way to balance them. Ok, cleric may seem stronger than other classes ... but has a lot of great limitation that arcane caster has not ... Since this post covers a lot of individual points, I'll go through them one by one. Number of spell ... if you play a cleric usually you spend a lot of your spells to cure or restore other players ... no great fun for you ... From my experience, this is certainly true at lower levels However, as divine casters become higher and higher in level, they soon have more than enough spell slots to be able to cast most any spell they want, even factoring in spells for healing! When you add in wands of cure light wounds to relieve the burden of out-of-combat healing, it only makes things worse. Note that this can easily happen by about level seven, which is where the divine classes really start to take off. Your point is valid at low levels, but it doesn't really come into play afterwards. You have to give up a lot of spell if they have an allignement descriptor opposed to your deity ... at least if you play a correct Cleric .. and your faith usually prevents you from doing just what you want ... In my experience, this doesn't usually come up as an issue. Usually, a player who's playing a good cleric isn't going to be trying to animate dead or unleash blasphemy and unholy blight upon the forces of good. In my mind, it's like a lesser version of the paladin's code of conduct; if it seems like a straitjacket to your roleplaying, then that class probably isn't for you (whether because of personal preference or bad DM'ing). Most of divine spells are limited in effects, much less effective than wizard spells, compared level by level .. most are created just defensive ... and during fight you must spend most of your time trying to save your fellow players ... I'd have to disagree with that one. Even at low levels, clerics can do plenty of damage with inflict wounds spells, druids have no shortage of effective damage-dealing spells (flame strike, lightning storm,[/I] etc.), and this isn't even factoring in spells like slay living, self-buff spells, divinations, summoning.... in short, plenty of spells that aren't "just defensive." Level-by-level, divine spells do tend be somewhat weaker overall than wizard spells, true, but that's for balance reasons (divine classes, as we've seen, have a lot of other advantages). Besides, the difference in spell power is not as drastic as you make it out to be. For example, compare flame strike and fireball. Fireball is a third-level wizard spell with twice the area and capping out at 10d6; flame strike is a fifth-level spell, has half of its damage being irresistable and caps out at 15d6. Note that the wizard comes out better overall (they cast the spell sooner and more often), yet the difference in power is not overwhelming. One can further note that this is for evocation spells, which is one of the wizard's greatest strengths! Wizards are better at spellcasting overall than divine casters, true, but not by as great a degree as you make out. A cleric with low h.p.,no heavy armour use, few spell will have to leave all wounded players die ... no chance to survive to opportunity attacks ... and he suffers a lot of them ... You'll note that I didn't change any of the divine caster's base statistics or proficiencies, and made no reference to changing either in my first post. Divine power seems to strong to you ... but is a 4 level spell ... it HAS to be strong ... just try to compare it with a similar 4 level mage spell ... like an empowerer fireball ... something list (10D6 * 1.50) ... 50 damage all over an area with no risk of retaliation .. very long range ... to see that Divine Power is non a great deal, after all. First of all, stating that divine power is balanced because it's a fourth-level spell doesn't really do justice to the issue; if divine power was the standard by which to judge fourth-level spells, I'd hate to see what ninth-levels spells could do. Secondly, the example cited isn't even correct, since Empower Spell raises the spell level by two, meaning it's a fifth-level spell, not fourth. What's more, an empowered fireball allows a Reflex save, and many things are resistant or immune to fire. What you are creating is a sort of NPC, something than no one will play ... no magic, no fight abilities, no skills ... even the weak bard seems quite better ... at least more skills, more R.P. fun ... nearly no spells lost for cure .. With all due respect, I think you should have a closer look at my first post. The cleric's base statistics have been unchanged, meaning their fighting abilities are intact; their spellcasting ability has been lowered only to the level of the wizard; finally, skills have never come up across this entire discussion. I don't mind criticism (and even appreciate it), but I'd welcome it if you had a closer look at what I've suggested before you post. I like these changes, but I think that the problem of Clerics/Druids may be a little more complicated than this sometimes. My impression is that these classes were intentionally made a little more powerful than other classes to compensate for the fact that they are supposed to spend a lot of time healing other PCs (boring!), like JahelltheBard pointed out. The problem, of course, is that lots of power gamers choose the classes and try to avoid the role of party healer. This can be a good RP opportunity (I know one character who hid the fact that she had druid levels from the other PCs, because she hated healing), but it betrays the purpose of the game. I think that I would implement these changes if I was concerned about a power gamer 'abusing' the classes. On the other hand, I've played in many games where we didn't have a party healer because no-one wanted to play that role - in which case, I think the power boost serves as an incentive for players. That's definitely a valid point. At this time, I'm playtesting my changes wherever I can to see if the classes are still decent. From what I've seen, the classes under this fix are still very playable and are well-balanced, but in particular I haven't had a chance to test them out under low-level conditions. I'll give it a try when I can, though if anyone wanted to playtest these changes, I'd really appreciate it. I say about "Clerics are overpowered.": Take the divine metamagic away! (Divine) Perisistent spell is what makes Divine favor and righteous might overpowered. Furthermore, point 4 looks quite good, I will think about that, if somebody wants to play a druid. (laughs) Divine Metamagic is one of the most hilariously broken feats I've seen in a long time, but I do think that the issue goes farther than that. Even under the core rules, it only takes a quickened divine favor (which you can even do with a metamagic rods) followed by divine power or righteous might to become a buffed combat machine with one round of casting, plus you still have a move action to close to melee. Divine Metamagic obviously shouldn't be introduced in games, but it still doesn't address the other problems with the core cleric. I'm glad you like point #4; even if people didn't use any other changes in this fix, I think that this one would be the one to use. At least a cleric has to actually cast divine power; a druid just waltzes around as a bear all day, waving his paws and making things explode from flame strikes (ugh). :yuck:
Lana "Silvertongue" 05-24-05, 06:49 PM	Personally, I see no reason to try and fix the cleric class because if you remove the ability to cast divine spells without worshiping a named diety you fix 75% of the problems. Dieties named in FR and Greyhawk are extreamly balanced with their choice of domains... making it very hard to break under that system. That and the normal improper use of study/spell memorization and roleplaying restrictions as written aside, let me make comments to the other stuff I read. If your going to 'fix' the spell list and negate the domains for nothing but powers, it would quickly be considered a waste of space in a book thus quickly scrapped. It really should become closer to the FR innate spell lists which allow followers of a diety to take a feat and gain access to spells they wouldn't normally have. Lets take the fire domain. Granted Power: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. You do not gain extra turning attempts from this ability; your existing turning ability can simply affect other creatures. This granted power is a supernatural ability. Honestly, How often is that going to come into effect? Once a year in my gaming group... an we play weekly. Couple that with my normal domains... GOOD DOMAIN: Granted Power: Turn or destroy evil outsiders as a good cleric turns undead. You do not gain extra turning attempts from this ability; your existing turning ability can simply affect other creatures. This granted power is a supernatural ability. HEALING DOMAIN: Granted Power: Whenever you cast a cure spell, you increase the amount of hit points restored by one. This bonus increases by one for every five cleric levels you gain. Now tell me on ground that is worth the equivlent as Scribe scroll? I have seen a wizard played properly... An I have played a cleric properly. Losing my domain spells makes me worse than a sorcerer. I'd rather nerf my spell list to lose access to some of my buffs and all of my elemental equivelent spells and only gain them as domain spells than lose them entirely. Divine casting being done from a book or totem either limits your party to a grove/location or is more weight for your cleric to carry. Clerics are not exactly a vied for class... Normally its as assigned class regardless of its supposed uberness. I still believe being a cleric is an advanced class... because in order for a cleric to be done well you need an advanced DM, advanced player and a strong foundations of expectations between both DM and player.
Chimaera2000 05-27-05, 01:01 AM	Personally, I see no reason to try and fix the cleric class because if you remove the ability to cast divine spells without worshiping a named diety you fix 75% of the problems. Dieties named in FR and Greyhawk are extreamly balanced with their choice of domains... making it very hard to break under that system. That and the normal improper use of study/spell memorization and roleplaying restrictions as written aside, let me make comments to the other stuff I read. Certainly, it's not required for anyone to use this fix; as it stands, D & D is a reasonably well-balanced game, and you can play it as-written and still have loads of fun with it. With that being said, though, I'd refer you to my opening post: This post came about in response to the numerous threads complaining about the overpowered nature of the cleric and druid in 3.5. If you think that these classes are balanced, then that's just fine; there's no one saying that you have to implement these changes. I personally think that there's a basis for the divine classes being too strong overall, and I think that putting some restrictions on these classes would result in greater game balance. It's simply my opinion that the cleric and druid are stronger than the other base classes in the Player's Handbook, based on my research and experiences with the game. This fix is mainly intended for others like me who think these classes are too strong; if you think they're fine as is, then you don't need to bother trying to fix them. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, after all. In response to the issue of domains, I think the problems with the cleric run deeper than just having some of them being able to select whichever domains they want. I do think that domain spells are one of the problems with the cleric, but only one. If your going to 'fix' the spell list and negate the domains for nothing but powers, it would quickly be considered a waste of space in a book thus quickly scrapped. It really should become closer to the FR innate spell lists which allow followers of a diety to take a feat and gain access to spells they wouldn't normally have. I'm not familiar with the Forgotten Realms innate spell lists, so I can't really comment one way or the other. As for the domain powers being a waste of space, I personally think that the choice of domains adds some uniqueness and flavor to individual clerics, which is why I included them in my fix. Lets take the fire domain. Quote: Granted Power: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. You do not gain extra turning attempts from this ability; your existing turning ability can simply affect other creatures. This granted power is a supernatural ability. Honestly, How often is that going to come into effect? Once a year in my gaming group... an we play weekly. Couple that with my normal domains... Quote: GOOD DOMAIN: Granted Power: Turn or destroy evil outsiders as a good cleric turns undead. You do not gain extra turning attempts from this ability; your existing turning ability can simply affect other creatures. This granted power is a supernatural ability. Quote: HEALING DOMAIN: Granted Power: Whenever you cast a cure spell, you increase the amount of hit points restored by one. This bonus increases by one for every five cleric levels you gain. Now tell me on ground that is worth the equivlent as Scribe scroll? I have seen a wizard played properly... An I have played a cleric properly. Losing my domain spells makes me worse than a sorcerer. I'd rather nerf my spell list to lose access to some of my buffs and all of my elemental equivelent spells and only gain them as domain spells than lose them entirely. Divine casting being done from a book or totem either limits your party to a grove/location or is more weight for your cleric to carry. Clerics are not exactly a vied for class... Normally its as assigned class regardless of its supposed uberness. I still believe being a cleric is an advanced class... because in order for a cleric to be done well you need an advanced DM, advanced player and a strong foundations of expectations between both DM and player. Even if the abilities themselves aren't overwhelming, they're still nice to have and help define some of your cleric's flavor. I don't think the comparison to the wizard's Scribe Scroll feat is especially good; it's far more accurate to compare it (and the wizard's other feats) to the cleric's Turn Undead ability, and to compare domain powers to the wizard's familiar. Familiars aren't going to be all that useful most of the time, yet the small bonuses they provide are still nice to have, plus the choice of your familiar helps say something about your wizard's personality. Likewise, a cleric's domain powers provide small bonuses that only come into play some of the time, yet are still nice to have and which also help define who your cleric is. As for losing domain spells "making you weaker than a sorceror," I would strongly disagree with that statement. As written with domain spells, the cleric casts nearly as many spells as a sorceror to begin with, plus they automatically know all of their spells, while a sorceror only learns a handful over his entire adventuring career. The aim of the fix is not to cripple the divine casters, and it doesn't. After all, comparing my revised divine casters to the sorceror, they still have the wizard's spells known and spells per day, armor proficiency and ability to cast in it, turn undead, wild shape, good saves, HP, and combat ability.... they're still very competetive with the sorceror under this fix. Finally, for the cleric and druid's scriptures and shamanic foci, I'd recommend you take a look at the space issue for the foci (it's not as bad as you make it out to be, since they're portable objects) and the wizard has been dealing with a spellbook for years; there's no reason why the cleric can't use one now!
Chimaera2000 06-02-05, 02:04 AM	....the issue is more complicated than I originally thought (as DDogwood pointed out :tiphat: ). The issue that made me realize this was the issue of why clerics and druids have so many spells per day. They obviously have the increased spell load because they're assumed to be using spells to heal, but I assumed that at mid-to-high levels, you have enough spells to heal and still be able to cast as much as you want. Still, I've come to believe that this is more situational than anything; if you do a consistent, four-encounter-per-day campaign, then divine casters (even at higher levels) are still probably going to be dropping a fair number of spells for healing, restoration and the like. If that's true, then the divine casters' increased numbers of spells is justified, which means they might be as overpowered as I thought. Still, that's not to say that I don't think divine casters are too strong overall; they still have many aspects (Natural Spell, individual cleric spells, and the way they learn spells) that I would recommend fixing. At this point, though, I'm not sure how far the cleric and druid have to be scaled back for a balanced game. In a more general sense, I've been coming up with a lot of house rules over time (you can find some of them in my signature) in the attempt to create a game that is balanced for all classes. Basically, I've been trying to make a game system where all adventuring parties are viable without having to be constrained to the typical iconic roles (the Four Monster Food Groups). This fix, my fighter fix, and a small fix that I made to the sorceror were all designed to balance the classes against one another, my caster level variant was designed to help out multiclass and monstrous casters without needing to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and my new classes and revised swashbuckler were made to fulfill classic fantasy archetypes without needing prestige classes. With the new ideas I had in mind for non-magical healing (you can find them at this link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=439149), if you're interested), I hoped to reduce the dire need for magical healing in a game, thereby making healers appreciated, but not necessary. In that case, all of my proposed changes for the cleric and druid would be justified, since they don't have to necessarily burn those spells for healing anymore. I looked ahead to what this system would be like. In my mind, the classes would be balanced against one another, the fantasy archetypes fulfilled, multiclass and monstrous casters made viable, and, with a few smaller changes, the system as a whole would be refined and offer even more options than ever before. In short, the revised system I had in mind would be a well-balanced and fun heroic fantasy game. With these changes, though, would it still be D & D? I've honestly been asking myself this question, because I don't know if D & D is meant to be a heroic fantasy game or not. I guess when comes down to it, the game is what you decide to make of it, but I don't know if a "heroic" feel can coexist with the traditional spine-chilling thrills of the dungeons crawl, or with the knowledge that there are beasties that lurk in the night that could send you all crying to your mommies. I guess that's the ultimate question; with all of these changes, it would be heroic fantasy, but would it still be D & D? For those of you who've read through this entire post, I appreciate your patience. I'm pretty much at a crossroads right now, and getting some input would be nice. I might post my question about the "heroic fantasy" idea somewhere else, but it does pertain to what I've posted on this thread already. Well, guys and gals of the board, I guess I'll leave the floor open to you. If you have anything to say about my divine caster fix or about the "heroic fantasy" issue in D & D, I'd love to hear your opinions. Hope to hear from you!
Schmendrick 06-21-05, 04:02 AM	Personally, I see no reason to try and fix the cleric class because if you remove the ability to cast divine spells without worshiping a named diety you fix 75% of the problems. Dieties named in FR and Greyhawk are extreamly balanced with their choice of domains... making it very hard to break under that system. That and the normal improper use of study/spell memorization and roleplaying restrictions as written aside, let me make comments to the other stuff I read. I agree, but I take it a bit further. I'm of the camp that divine spells are granted by your deity, and you basically have to ask for each and every one (like many others, I don't like "I worship a concept" clerics). The DM, acting as the deity, can at any point say "No, I'm not giving you that spell," though there should be some justification for it. Maybe Cleric Bob does something that irks his god Bigman; Bigman grants him fewer spells the next day. Maybe Bob does something truly rebellious (but is still loyal to Bigman overall); Bigman decides that Bob isn't getting anything but cure spells the next day (so no "innocents" are harmed by Bob's trangression), no matter what he prays for, until he learns his lesson. A worshiper of a chaotic god might find his spells tweaked just a little every once in a while. Similarly, Miracle doesn't involve an XP cost because it is completely subject to the deity's discretion (Which is more restrictive than Wish, which is only subject to the filter of the DM's discretion. Miracle is subject to the discretion of both the DM and the deity.) and, potentially, whim. This interpretation is backed up, incidentally, by the RAW and is not simply a houserule. You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede. A miracle can do any of the following things. (emphasis added) I included the second part to point out that while Wish automatically does certain delineated things (not subject to DM intervention - or, at least, no more than anything in the game), Miracle is still subject to the deity's discretion, even if all you want to do is blow a 9th level spell to cast Prestidigitation. Of course, this shouldn't be an excuse for the DM to be petty or arbitrarily nerf the cleric's effectiveness, but rather be a tool used to keep the cleric in line. Druids are a little different, as they have no deity other than "nature," so it's a little more difficult to say "nature doesn't want you doing that." I've not had many druids in my campaigns, so I haven't had to address it yet (though I suppose I should).
Chimaera2000 07-07-05, 07:53 PM	Well, I've been doing playtesting for my class changes, and I've found some interesting things. Here've been my observations so far: 1) The changes to how divine casters learn spells is a huge balancing factor. Now that I've been using the same rules with my cleric character as a wizard would, it just makes me realize how well off divine casters were before, honestly. These changes seem justified and don't cripple the divine casters by any means; they're just obeying the same rules that their direct arcane counterpart uses. 2) The changes to individual spells (divine favor, divine power, righteous might, miracle, and destruction) seem to be very good. Specifically, the changes to the hugely abusive divine power work really well; as it stands now, the spell is still very strong (you turn into the equivalent of a fighter of your level, after all), but the spellcasting restrictions make you think before casting, rather than just powering out the spell every combat. 3) Turning Natural Spell into a metamagic feat turns a hugely overpowered feat into a balanced and useful one instead. Simple enough. :) 4) Since the only druid character I've seen has yet to use wildshape in combat, I've yet to evaluate the effects of the changed polymorph rules at this time. I realized a couple of other things too, both of which I find pretty interesting. One reason used to justify divine casters having so many spells per day is that they're required to drop spells for healing, reducing their overall spell capacity. This is felt most particularly at low levels; wands of cure light wounds and the like aren't available, meaning that a cleric or druid could literally spend their entire spell capacity solely on healing. You'd think that would mean that they should be getting extra spells at low levels, right? Nope! Instead, clerics and druids mysteriously get extra 0-level spells from level 4 onwards (which mystifies me; of all of the spell slots, 0-level spells seem the least likely to be dropped for healing at that point), then start getting extra spells from 11th level onwards. That's not 1st-level onwards, that's 11th level onwards. If you also factor in that clerics get heal at this point and druids get it soon thereafter, this means that the divine casters are getting extra spells precisely when they don't need them! Take a look at the spell progression charts: Table: Wizard Spells Per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 3 1 — — — — — — — — 4 2 — — — — — — — — 4 2 1 — — — — — — — 4 3 2 — — — — — — — 4 3 2 1 — — — — — — 4 3 3 2 — — — — — — 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — — 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — — 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Table: Druid Spells Per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 3 1 — — — — — — — — 4 2 — — — — — — — — 4 2 1 — — — — — — — 5 3 2 — — — — — — — 5 3 2 1 — — — — — — 5 3 3 2 — — — — — — 6 4 3 2 1 — — — — — 6 4 3 3 2 — — — — — 6 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — 6 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — 6 5 4 4 3 2 1 — — — 6 5 4 4 3 3 2 — — — 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — — 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 — — 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 — 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 6 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 6 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 This observation can be taken one of two ways. First, it could be that clerics and druids are simply the victim of poor level design; they were meant to have extra spells, but the game designers committed a glaring oversight by relying on the wizard's casting progression. While this is possible, odds are that it would have been corrected in the 3.5 revision if it was a serious issue in low-level campaigns. The fact that divine casters manage to keep their parties alive before they get significantly more spells for healing at 11th level indicates something else, instead: clerics and druids do not need the extra spells at all! After all, if parties are staying alive when they need magical healing most at low levels, why do their healers suddenly require a boost in spells at higher levels? In my opinion, this justifies scaling back the divine casters' spells per day to the same level as the wizard. Hopefully this can put into perspective the argument that "clerics and druids need the spells for healing." As this argument shows (though rebuttals are welcome) that they really don't need them; any extra spells they get are simply overpowering these classes. Another observation I noticed is something that comes about from removing domain spells from the cleric. Though this proposed change does balance the cleric against other classes, it has the unintended effect of making the druid slightly overbalanced in comparison to the cleric. After all, domain spells is one of the cleric's main abilities; it could be similar to taking away the druid's ability to wild shape. Now, that's not what I intended with this fix, yet domain spells are still overpowered in the core rules. I had a few ideas on what could be done in this regard, and I'd love to hear any comments or other ideas: a) Remove the druid's ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells. The easiest solution, but not one that I'd like to use. b) Make domain spells available again, but change each domain spell list to primarily (or entirely) include cleric spells. c) Make domain spells again, but require that you channel divine energy (spending turning attempts) to use them, rather than having spell slots. d) Keep domain spells removed, but bump up the effectiveness and general coolness factor of the domain powers. If their abilities could be used by using turning attempts, that could be even nicer.... I'll keep posting ideas as they come to me. Keep the comments coming, if you'd like!
Lana "Silvertongue" 07-07-05, 11:39 PM	Boi, my DM must just know how to munch my butt because every time I try to break a cleric I am nerfed beyond existance. My group normally needs atleast 1 healing spell per fight. Going with the 4 fights per day then resting, leaves very little for buffing or any offensive spells even at midlevels. I dunno, I still feel the class is very much fine and that it takes a good DM throwing the situations properly to keep it balanced with the other classes.
HorizonWalker 07-08-05, 08:58 AM	Comparing Clerics and Druids is like comparing apples and oranges; the two classes seem similar, but in reality, they have very different roles. If I had to say that either of these classes is 'overpowered', my money is on the Druid. Let's review: Cleric: good base attack, good hit die, good saves. Ability to use simple weapons, all armor, shields (non-tower). Turn or Rebuke Undead class feature. Spontaneous Casting: Well, I can see the benefit of spontaneous Cure...lets you dip into the spell list somewhat, but always have a useful spell. Inflict? Um....why? Domains: Clerics gain two domains. Domains give out a granted power of variable strength. The Animal Domain grants a 1/day 1st-level spell-like ability, albeit of a spell not found on the Cleric spell list. Some Domains grant +1 caster level on certain types of spells, others grant a 1/day nifty power, like Smite, Luck, or the Death Touch (???). A few grant "alternative" Turn/Rebuke abilities, and several add skills to the Cleric Class Skill list. That last is my major bone of contention, given the low amount of skill points the average Cleric has anyways (Int not being a priority for them as it is for Wizards), what the heck is the point of giving a Cleric Bluff, Disguise, and Hide? (I have an answer for this, see below). Then the crux of Domains, bonus spells. At each spell level, the Cleric is given a bonus spell slot, that can only be used for one of two Domain spells (this is roughly along the lines of Wizard school specialization; you only get two possible spells, but you don't give up any spells to get the bonus spell slots). Spells not normally found on the Cleric list are occasionally available here, although mostly at the higher levels of play. This is designed to give the Cleric a somewhat unique flavor, allowing the creation of "specialty priests", so that two Clerics can have differences in their class abilities, reflecting different deities and belief systems. Most Domains have their benefits weighted against their bonus spells; the Strength Domain's granted power, while potentially amazing at high levels, is usually not much better than simply casting a Strength-enhancing spell; it's main advantage is it's a free action to use. To balance this, the Domain spells include Stoneskin (only 2 levels higher than the Wizard gets it!), and three Bigby's Hand spells at levels 7, 8, and 9. Domains with strong benefits don't often gain non-Cleric spells; even the mighty Death Domain only gets one, Wail of the Banshee, at 9th spell level. And weaker benefits are meant to grant stronger spells; take Trickery, a favorite of mine. Trickery grants several non-Cleric spells: Disguise Self, Invisibility, Confusion, Polymorph and Object, and Time Stop are excellent examples. Note that Disguise Self often requires Bluff or Disguise checks, something Clerics aren't good at. Thus the Domain grants these as Class Skills. Hide has some synergy with Invisibility, but not enough to matter (since Wizards use it often, and they aren't exactly all that big on hiding in shadows either). Now I will grant that Domains found in other books range from "cute" to "OMG!" in their power level. I like the idea of new Domains, but I'm usually leery about allowing them; there's one in Eberron, the Dragon Below Domain, that's incredibly strong, and when I saw it, my jaw dropped. Divine Power has no place. While it's thematically appropriate for a Cleric to draw on the power of their God to lay a righteous smack-down on unbelievers, isn't this why we have Righteous Might? I'm against selfish Cleric buffs; the class is about bolstering the whole party, not just one's self. Most encounters don't really offer you the time to do this sort of thing. And yes, you can use Quicken Spell or that Divine Metmagic Insanity Feat to break this limit, but even then, you're still burning more actions to make yourself stronger. It's like a conversation I recently had with a Wizard player as to why he should make scrolls for other party members able to use them. (Me): What's the one thing every Wizard wants to be able to do? (Him): Take over the world? (Me): Besides that! (Him): I don't know, what? (Me): Cast multiple spells a turn. (Him): I miss 3.0 Haste... (Me): You're not listening. Look, let's say you wanted to cast Fireball three times a turn, what's the easiest way to do it? (Him): Umm...Quicken Spell and then...umm....Contingent Fireball? (Me, applying a vicious pimp slap): No, you ninny! Give a scroll of Fireball to the Rogue, and one to the Cleric with the Magic Domain! (Him): Ow, what would that....wait....OMG! (Me, shaking head and sighing) DnD is meant for characters to work together to create a synergy that makes the whole greater than the sum of it's parts. My own Cleric PC, Xelis Sadron, was constantly trying to fight his way out of the shadow of our warriors, and wasted copious amounts of time using Divine Favor and Bull's Strength on himself, wasting his first few turns in any encounter. Then one day, we were in a tight spot, and I had a revelation. "Wait a minute...why am I casting a spell on myself so that I'm a little stronger next turn...when I can cast Bull's Strength on our Barbarian, so he can Rage and make a full attack this turn with Strength 28?" Forget making yourself strong, it's all about making other people stronger. Divine Favor and Righteous Might are "holdout" spells for when the going gets tough. Wow, long post. Ok, let's compare to the Druid. Same base attack, same hit die, hm, strangeness with weapons and armor. Could slow down a lower Dexterity Druid, but hey, they even get a Martial Weapon. Ok, it's the Scimitar, but it's arguably better than a Morningstar. Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Venom Immunity, Thousand Faces, Timeless Body...what the heck is this class, a forest-dwelling Monk? Oh and Wild Shape. Jeez, why didn't they just give them Polymorph into Animal as a 3rd-level spell? Now don't get me wrong, I love Wild Shape. But it's very strong, a Polymorph variant useable multiple times a day outside of spell list progression, that upgrades as you rise in level, and has numerous "upgrade" Feats, plus many PrC's that augment it. And rather than focus on the party augmentation spells (they have them, but they're not as good), they get animal spells, nature spells, elemental attack spells... Wait a minute...Flaming Sphere, Call Lightning, Flame Strike at 4th-level...don't we have Wizards for this? Hm, and an alternative Raise Dead at 4th-level. Ok, it's a bit funky, but still, bringing back the dead at 7th character level? Wow! Oh and did I mention 4+Int skill points per level? Sign me up! And...spontaneous summon nature's ally, a spell which in 3.5 generally cranks out stronger creatures than Summon Monster...hmm... Revise the Druid if you're worried about power, and leave the poor Cleric alone! ^-^ As for knowing their whole spell list at each spell level; I think this was done for the Cleric mainly because they have so many spells that have a limited use, but can become critical. Lesser Restoration, Raise Dead, Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease, Break Enchantment, just to name a few. The Challenge Ratings of most Monsters are at least partially based on the availability of the party to have the means to abate the various special attacks they can use on characters at their level...which is based on when the Cleric can handle the problem. As I've found with the Favored Soul in my current campaign, having a limited number of spell slots, and being forced to actually consider being able to spontaneously cast Raise Dead is pathetic. I understand why you want to revise the Divine spellcasters, and I'm not bashing your work. I just felt these are points that need to be considered as well. I'm curious as to what you think of Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric, or Complete Divine's Favored Soul and Shugenja classes, as they compare to the Cleric and Druid. Thank you for your time, -HorizonWalker
RadicalTaoist 07-08-05, 09:07 AM	Personally, I see no reason to try and fix the cleric class because if you remove the ability to cast divine spells without worshiping a named diety you fix 75% of the problems. Dieties named in FR and Greyhawk are extreamly balanced with their choice of domains... making it very hard to break under that system. That and the normal improper use of study/spell memorization and roleplaying restrictions as written aside, let me make comments to the other stuff I read. ...Are you reading the same FR campaign setting I am? Anyspell and Greater Anyspell from the Spell domain? Huh? I must disagree. Even a core cleric with no domains is quite beefy.
Chimaera2000 07-08-05, 07:53 PM	Wow, HorizonWalker, thanks for that insightful reply! The points you raise are very good, and I'll be sure to keep them in mind. It is possible that the cleric (maybe even the druid!) may indeed be balanced, and I'll be sure to take a look through the PHB to see if I notice anything more to support that view. I still believe that these two classes are still generally "more powerful" than their other counterparts, but I will think on it from the other viewpoint as well. Domains with strong benefits don't often gain non-Cleric spells.... (a)nd weaker benefits are meant to grant stronger spells.... I actually never though about how domains with strong domain powers have weak spells, and vice-versa; that's an interesting point. I do like domains, and the bonus spells and abilities give great flavor to individual clerics, but I do wonder about the balance of domain spells; I'm not sure if it seems right that clerics can cast spells through domains that are usually available only to other casters. Does anyone have any opinions on this? I understand why you want to revise the Divine spellcasters, and I'm not bashing your work. I just felt these are points that need to be considered as well. Even if you were bashing my work, it wouldn't be a problem. I find that you can often learn more from opposing arguments and viewpoints, which is why I appreciate input like yours. I do still think that several things need to be fixed with these classes, but perhaps certain things (like domains) aren't ones that have to be. I'm curious as to what you think of Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric, or Complete Divine's Favored Soul and Shugenja classes, as they compare to the Cleric and Druid. I haven't seen the Cloistered Cleric variant before, so I can't comment on it one way or the other. I'd have to take a closer look at the Favored Soul and Shugenja (no idea if that's the right spelling!) before I give a decent analysis on how they were balanced. I do know that I initially thought, "Holy cow! How could this be so overpowered?!?" when I initially saw the Favored Soul, but I've since revised my opinion for the most part. The class does seem balanced on the whole, though I'm honestly not sure if it needs the good Reflex save. I know that the flavor is that it's from its "divinely-touched" nature, but I just don't know if that it needed that from a mechanical perspective. Edit: Upon further thinking, I'm tempted to keep my other changes intact, but keep domains unchanged from the core rules. It makes things a lot simpler, plus it does keep the cleric and druid on par with one another and also allows clerics to develop better flavor-wise. I would welcome further debate on this, however.
HorizonWalker 07-09-05, 01:33 AM	I had to make sure to add that last part, as I said, I didn't want to bash your work, but having played a Cleric myself, it's a pretty thankless job, keeping the party in one piece. The moments you get to shine are few and far between, and it's great to be able to dip into your spell list and come up with something the DM wasn't expecting. My favorite moment was when our party was shipwrecked somewhere in the campaign's polar regions. (DM, with an evil smirk): "Well, now you're in for it, my recent audit of your character sheets shows that you're low on rations." (Me, with an equally evil smirk): "Oh...yes...about that...Beloved Goddess, I beseech Thee, grant Thine servant and his companions succor in his hour of need...Create Food and Water!" (DM, blinking): "Ah...er.....ok." (DM, quickly recovering): "Alright genius, what are you going to do about the cold weather?" (Me): "We just left the desert a month ago, and you already forgot about Endure Elements?" (DM): "Hm...well, you're still trapped here, or do you have a spell for THAT, too?" (Me): "I might...I'll deal with it tomorrow." -The next game day- (DM): "Ok genius, you're not high enough level to cast Word of Recall, and if you think you're going to Wind Walk the party home, you're out of your mind." (Me): "We'll see about that. I'm going to ask the other characters about their survey of the damage, and see what needs to be fixed." (DM): "They can tell you that, but you don't have the tools or the materials on hand." (Me): "Well now that I know what I need to know...Beloved Goddess, I beseech Thee, restore what was damage to it's original form....Make Whole!" (DM): "What does THAT do?" -after showing him the PHB- (DM): *grumbling* "Fine...ok....the ship is fixed, you can leave at any time." (Me): "Why? We were obviously brought here for a reason, I just wanted to make sure we could leave when we wanted to. C'mon guys, time to scout out this glacier." (DM): *mutters something about a grudge monster* (Me): "Did you say something?" (DM): "Nope, not me." Which sadly, is an example of Cleric "brokenness". Each day, they can get their hands on any Cleric spell allowed in the game, even those utility spells that you don't often see cast. I made the DM in my above example want to strangle me when I started preparing multiple Stone Shape spells each day...hardly the stuff of nightmares, but I kept finding uses for the spell the DM hadn't considered. Now when I'm sitting in the big chair, it's a whole different story. I rely on the PC Clerics a lot to make sure things don't go south unexpectedly. A well-played Cleric can allow a low-level party to handle multiple encounters in a given day, which greatly boosts level advancement. They also help out a lot if (when) things don't go as planned, and an encounter's CR spikes up a few notches. I tend to be very nice to divine spellcasters in my games...and if they find a few times when they can seriously impress the rest of the party, more power to them. You're comment about the spell progression past 10th-level was unusual...I think I can see how a Cleric is supposed to use this benefit, but since they can prepare any spells they want to, you can't really expect to see more Death Wards and less Flame Strikes, for example. After umpteen levels of patching together and buffing other PCs, most Clerics relish the opportunity to blast something with holy fire. (Btw, you compared Flame Strike to Fireball, and that's not actually a good match...Fireball affects a larger radius, is available as early as 5th-level, and when the Cleric finally does get Flame Strike, both spells are inflicting the same damage...and the Wizard could prepare an Empowered Fireball instead. Now the Druid getting Flame Strike at 7th level is an entirely different story...) While making Divine casters have to seek out spells like the Wizard sounds cool, how do you ensure your players take spells like Remove Disease instead of Contagion? A wise player will know they need Remove Disease, but with a limited number of spells available to them, like the Favored Soul, they'd be really annoyed at being "forced" to take a necessary spell instead of a "cool" spell. One caveat about Domain spells; while these are normally 1/day affairs, and thus don't actually step on the Wizard, a savvy Cleric may pick up Scribe Scroll (or, heaven forbid, Domain Spontaneity) to break this limit. Then again, a Cleric with the Magic Domain can use a wide array of Scrolls and Wands as it is, a vastly overlooked advantage. I think the problem isn't that the Cleric is broken (although I'm still not so sure about that Druid guy, he seems pretty strong...is there a good reason they didn't just make Polymorph into Animal as a Druid spell?), but that the Wizard and Sorcerer have a serious design flaw. Let's see, we make a class that has minimal hit points, weak base attack, no armor, weak weapons, and then spellcasting. That's all the Wizard and Sorcerer are, spells with legs! Now compare this with every other spellcasting core class (with the exception of the Wu Jen). All the other guys have options, other ways of accomplishing tasks that don't always involve spells. They're flexible, either having better hit points, base attack, skills, or more class abilities. Sure, the Hexblade doesn't have many spells, the Bard lacks focus, and the Warmage just blows things up...these classes offer something other than just "I cast spells", and that makes them more attractive as PC choices, because they give the player something more to work with. I found the Wizard and Sorcerer variants in Unearthed Arcana to be a step in the right direction; the Battle Sorcerer has less spells, but can fight, the Wizard specialist variants can trade off their bonus spells, feats, and familiar to gain other class abilities. And that's what makes the Cleric seem so "powerful", IMO. Because he can fight, cast spells, and has a better specialization option with his two Domains than the Wizard does. And the Sorcerer doesn't even get that! Anyways, the real fun of a Cleric has nothing to do with casting a few spells and going Super-Saiyan. The real fun of being a Cleric is casting Death Ward and Freedom of Movement, and watching the DM go crazy trying to figure out what you're not immune to! (Real conversation) "Aha! So you're vulnerable to this!" "No, not really." "#$*&!!!"
Chimaera2000 07-09-05, 05:42 PM	Well, I've decided to go ahead and let the cleric have his domain spells and powers back (and there was much rejoicing). Domain spells may still be slightly imbalancing in some cases and it would be better if domain powers provided benefits that scaled with cleric level, but I think that with careful DM scrutiny on new domains, they shouldn't imbalance things terribly. If nothing else, putting domains back to the way they were provides a tremendous amount of flavor for clerics, plus it does allow them to keep on an equal footing with the druid. With the other changes instituted, I think it still takes care of the worst excesses of these two classes while still keeping them fun to play.
HorizonWalker 07-10-05, 04:46 PM	I'm sure the Clerics thank you! I'm not sure what can be done about the Druid though, other than, as I suggested, turning Wild Shape into a spell or series of spells. Which would trash a few PrC's, but I'm not sure why Wild Shape is allowed to be so powerful anyways. Sure, there's limits to what you can turn into, but that duration...! And yes, scaleable Domain powers would be nice, as there's only a few, but Clerics get along all right. Now if only they had more skill points... Support your local Cleric! Clerics They may heal you, but that doesn't mean they like you.
Chimaera2000 07-10-05, 06:48 PM	If one did want to scale back the druid a bit more, you could take away their ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells. Clerics need the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells in order to be effective, while the same doesn't ring true for druids with their summoning spells. If the druid did need to get scaled back a bit more, I'd probably do that.
RadicalTaoist 07-10-05, 09:40 PM	Well, I've decided to go ahead and let the cleric have his domain spells and powers back (and there was much rejoicing). Domain spells may still be slightly imbalancing in some cases and it would be better if domain powers provided benefits that scaled with cleric level, but I think that with careful DM scrutiny on new domains, they shouldn't imbalance things terribly. If nothing else, putting domains back to the way they were provides a tremendous amount of flavor for clerics, plus it does allow them to keep on an equal footing with the druid. With the other changes instituted, I think it still takes care of the worst excesses of these two classes while still keeping them fun to play. The Domains are fine. It's the base Cleric spell list that's the problem. Divine Power should be domain-specific. Righteous Might should be domain-specific. Implosion should be domain-specific. Destruction should be domain-specific. Earthquake should be domain-specific. Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, and Word of Chaos should all be domain-specific (and still nerfed quite a bit). Maybe even the cleric blasting spells like Flame Strike and Blade Barrier should only be found on domain lists. There are a ton more Cleric spells out there in splatbooks which show up on both domain and Cleric lists, and should only be appearing as Domain spells (the example that irks me the most is Brain Spider from the Mind domain, appearing in the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Lords of Madness). Force a Cleric to choose between powerful options and he won't be uber at everything.
Chimaera2000 07-11-05, 02:06 AM	The Domains are fine. It's the base Cleric spell list that's the problem. Divine Power should be domain-specific. Righteous Might should be domain-specific. Implosion should be domain-specific. Destruction should be domain-specific. Earthquake should be domain-specific. Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, and Word of Chaos should all be domain-specific (and still nerfed quite a bit). Maybe even the cleric blasting spells like Flame Strike and Blade Barrier should only be found on domain lists. There are a ton more Cleric spells out there in splatbooks which show up on both domain and Cleric lists, and should only be appearing as Domain spells (the example that irks me the most is Brain Spider from the Mind domain, appearing in the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Lords of Madness). Force a Cleric to choose between powerful options and he won't be uber at everything. Of the spells you've listed, divine power, righteous might, and destruction have all been accounted for in this fix. I'm honestly not sure how to approach spells like holy word. In my opinion, the spell seems balanced until you start adding in beads of karma and the like. Perhaps that item, rather than the spell itself, is overpowered.
RadicalTaoist 07-11-05, 10:43 AM	That still gives every Cleric Implosion (effectively a delayed-action Wail of the Banshee with targeting) and Earthquake, plus all that lovely blasting. Destruction is better balanced as an 8th level spell, but it's still quite uber, and Clerics still have save or dies to use before it. Reminds me - Slay Living should not be a general Cleric spell. Perhaps that item, rather than the spell itself, is overpowered. Well, it's overpowered mostly because a cleric has more means to boost his caster level than any other caster and seems to get more with every divine-focuses splatbook - Hierophant, Orange Ioun Stone, Beads of Karma, Divine Spell Power, Practiced Spellcaster + temporary hit dice spells and effects, etc. Which means more selective nerfing across the board, but smart DMs know how much they're willing to allow in their game anyways.
the artful dodger 07-11-05, 11:05 AM	Divine spellcasting isn't really problematic. For that, the problem issues would have to be systematic, and I don't think they are. The problems come from a limited number of spells, feats and abilities. Drop divine metamagic altogether, drop Natural Spell altogether and either drop Cleric and Druid spells that are comparable in power to similar arcane spells from the same or lower level or increase their level. That's a more difficult fix to implement, granted (at least the part about the spells), but also a more precise one.
Chimaera2000 07-19-05, 09:05 PM	How to handle holy word is a troublesome issue. If you nerf it too much, you have the somewhat useless 3.0 version; if you leave it as is, it can definitely be too powerful. At this point, I think that RadicalTaoist's suggestion of the DM managing what can be added to caster level seems to be the way to go. I'll do some research on these spells and see if anyone else has come up with some relevant fixes, since I'm somewhat stumped at this point. One possibility might be to scale the spell back one level and have it allow a save, I suppose. Divine spellcasting isn't really problematic. For that, the problem issues would have to be systematic, and I don't think they are. The problems come from a limited number of spells, feats and abilities. Drop divine metamagic altogether, drop Natural Spell altogether and either drop Cleric and Druid spells that are comparable in power to similar arcane spells from the same or lower level or increase their level. That's a more difficult fix to implement, granted (at least the part about the spells), but also a more precise one. When I first started entering into the various debates about the cleric, I actually had a very similar position to this. I suggested that fixing the most argued-about spells (divine power, miracle, and destruction) would fix the class. After doing further research, though, I realized that the fix simply doesn't go far enough. It doesn't address the issue of Natural Spell for druids, nor does it address the fact that the divine casters both know every single spell that they can cast (including anything past, present, or future from splatbooks) and can cast said spells more per day. Now, if they truly needed those extra spells for healing, then I could accept their having more spells. The fact that they receive the exact same number of spells as the wizard for the first ten levels of their career (0-level and domain spells excluded) indicates that they don't really need to have the extra spells. If parties can survive the first ten levels, the ones most reliant on having divine casters using their spells for healing, then they likely don't need the extra spells later. Time for a random, informal poll! Would you say that it would be better than paladins and rangers learn spells like the other divine casters in this fix or should they be left as is?
Wizard 11-06-05, 01:13 AM	Taoist is correct. The cleric's possible role has been expanded time and time again. Each deity that comes out represents another possibility for the cleric. This is fine---each campaign world will only have so many gods in it, after all. The problem comes when you have priests of Olidammara casting zone of truth. Priests of Ehlonna casting inflict critical wounds. Priests of Erythnul casting calm emotions. You get the idea. BTW, I think paladins and rangers are fine as they are. I do wish rangers got wild shape at high levels, though. So. Tomorrow is Sunday. I've done all my homework until Wednesday. Which means it's time to put together a fixed cleric spell list. :)
RadicalTaoist 11-06-05, 01:53 PM	Taoist is correct. The cleric's possible role has been expanded time and time again. Each deity that comes out represents another possibility for the cleric. This is fine---each campaign world will only have so many gods in it, after all. The problem comes when you have priests of Olidammara casting zone of truth. Priests of Ehlonna casting inflict critical wounds. Priests of Erythnul casting calm emotions. You get the idea. BTW, I think paladins and rangers are fine as they are. I do wish rangers got wild shape at high levels, though. So. Tomorrow is Sunday. I've done all my homework until Wednesday. Which means it's time to put together a fixed cleric spell list. :) My ego! It roars! ;) Let's see - Air Walk, Blade Barrier, Brain Spider (XPH and LoM), Destruction, Divine Power, Earthquake, Flame Strike, Implosion, Righteous Might, Slay Living, the Vigor spells from Complete Divine (let's put those on the Healing domain - we'll have to replace every spell on that domain list anyway if we don't want domains to offer overlapping spells) - knock all those of the base Cleric spell list and force them to be domain-only. That's a start.
Wizard 11-06-05, 03:08 PM	*yawn* So I made a start of it last night. One thing I noticed---every once in a while, I'd see a spell, and think, "Oh, c'mon...that should DEFIINITELY be restricted to such-and-such domain." So I'd cut it (I've been modifying the SRD cleric spell list) and scroll down to that domain...and find that it was already there! This seems like a clear indication to me that the cleric suffers from a multiple-personality execution---is it always the standard archetypical cleric, or is it customizable for clerics of, say, Grummsh? Seems like the designers couldn't really decide, so they made it both. One argument I hear tossed around is that WotC overpowered the cleric because people weren't playing clerics. But the thing is, people still don't play clerics all that much. I think that forcing a distinction between clerics of different gods (If they both have access to righteous might, then who can really tell if they follow Pelor or Vecna? It's not like they'll be using their domain spells with that hanging around) will repopularize clerics. A truly tricky priest of Olidammara could be tight.
Schmendrick 11-06-05, 04:55 PM	This seems like a clear indication to me that the cleric suffers from a multiple-personality execution---is it always the standard archetypical cleric, or is it customizable for clerics of, say, Grummsh? Seems like the designers couldn't really decide, so they made it both. ... I think that forcing a distinction between clerics of different gods (If they both have access to righteous might, then who can really tell if they follow Pelor or Vecna? It's not like they'll be using their domain spells with that hanging around) will repopularize clerics. A truly tricky priest of Olidammara could be tight. What if clerics were handled similarly (mechanically) to psions, who have to choose a discipline? Cut the spells into lists and grant clerics access to different lists.
Chimaera2000 11-06-05, 10:53 PM	You know, that actually could be quite interesting. I don't have the time to help on this idea at the moment, but I'll be happy to offer feedback on any possible cleric spell list changes that you come up with.
Wizard 11-06-05, 10:59 PM	Yeah, it's an idea I've been kicking around for a while but haven't gotten around to yet. I'm especially taken with the psion idea---that's really my chosen implementation. Somewhat like the spheres of 2e.
RadicalTaoist 11-07-05, 09:44 PM	One argument I hear tossed around is that WotC overpowered the cleric because people weren't playing clerics. But the thing is, people still don't play clerics all that much. I think that forcing a distinction between clerics of different gods (If they both have access to righteous might, then who can really tell if they follow Pelor or Vecna? It's not like they'll be using their domain spells with that hanging around) will repopularize clerics. A truly tricky priest of Olidammara could be tight. Well the problem is that when asked for the example cleric, designers always give the Jozan-type; boring character, band-aid function. That image as much as anything is the reason people still think of the 3.5 Cleric as a 'support-first' class, and the reason the class isn't too attractive. You're right in that unique clerics would help a lot. Throw out Jozan the cleric of Pelor who does nothing but sound holy and heal people. Give me the cleric of Ehlonna who beats on her enemies with the whole freaking forest. Give me the cleric of Olidammara who swindles with the best of rogues and bards. Give me the cleric of St. Cuthbert who smites like he's out of the Old Testament. Those are interesting characters. The sample cleric of Dol Arrah in the Eberron Campaign Setting sourcebook ("By the Lady of Flame and Battle, let us dance!") is an interesting character. Jozan the Glowing First Aid Kit is not.