Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necropolitan 11-09-06, 10:59 PM	Greetings all, you all know me, some's impression may be better then others at this point. Anyways; I've been working on a specialized campaign lately; one of a group of like-minded friends of mine. The idea is to make a sort of Modern-set Horror/Survival/Detective/Hunted-ish game with 3.5 - Essentially all the aspects that make a good survival horror game good. Now then, Before you go ignoring my thread and posting a million links to the D20 Modern setting, I'll say right now it doesn't fit the concept I'm working with, the ideal is more of a warped and twisted take on the classic High-Fatnasy cliche` 'Stranger in a Strange Land'; such examples as Terry Brooks' Kingdom of Landover books, I intend to be blurring the lines between Low Fantasy and Classical High Fantasy with a Horror mixer on a modern setting, so the D20 Modern's CR and various systems don't mix well with the theme. If you post that I'll be most upset. Now then, I've run across a little conudrum; So far balencing the power levels of Magical Items and weapons and the various Mundane-Over-Mystical vibe it'll have going for early to mid-low levels; I can't seem to shake the power of the 3.5 caster classes. All of them. As it is, the Fighter, Rouge, Barbarian and such all fit quite well into the game's predicted power levels; though I'll admit I may retool the fighter with some of the advice from these boards - they are far below the Mages at higher levels and these caster classes will simply Break the game if left unmodified. So I ask you, the den of Casters Are Cool with yoru wealth of knowladge; How would you Nerf, yourselves? Well, In so many words. Rather then balencing the Non-Caster classes against the Casters, I need to do the opposite, but I'm unsure how to apporach this without utterly destroying them as a playable class. I definatly need to lower the power of the spells, or reduce the spell levels to a degree; but I can't just Halve the Spell Levels, that'd cripple the classes. I need the wizards, Druids and Clerics and so forth to perform equal with the other classes WITHOUT crazy feat or spell use at later levels, rather then pulling ahead as they do now. I'd like full input on this before I make any attempts, as I'd hate to **** on my two Spellcaster-Loving PC's shoes by accident, but I don't want them to rule the planet by level 15, so to speak. Help appriciated.
nastynate 11-09-06, 11:58 PM	You could use the bard (in place of wizards) the divine bard variant in the SRD (in place of clerics), and the wilderness bard variant in the SRD (in place of druids). This eliminates 7th-9th level spells w/o completely eliminating magic. You could also use the taint mechanic and the tainted spellcasting variant to make the use of spells with the [evil] descriptor potentially dangerous. The warlock also makes a nice addition, given its relatively low level of power (which is much more along the lines of fighters and rogues than it is to wizards and clerics). Warlocks also have a nice infernal/abyssal/fey flavoring that makes them a good fit for a fantasy horror setting. Last but not least, you could also flat out ban some spells (like polymorph) that disrupt the balance of power too much, though it shouldn't be necessary if you use the limited power casters I mentioned above. -Peace- P.S. If I think of anything else I'll try to remember to post it.
Necropolitan 11-10-06, 12:03 AM	You could use the bard (in place of wizards) the divine bard variant in the SRD (in place of clerics), and the wilderness bard variant in the SRD (in place of druids). This eliminates 7th-9th level spells w/o completely eliminating magic. You could also use the taint mechanic and the tainted spellcasting variant to make the use of spells with the [evil] descriptor potentially dangerous. The warlock also makes a nice addition, given its relatively low level of power (which is much more along the lines of fighters and rogues than it is to wizards and clerics). Warlocks also have a nice infernal/abyssal/fey flavoring that makes them a good fit for a fantasy horror setting. Last but not least, you could also flat out ban some spells (like polymorph) that disrupt the balance of power too much, though it shouldn't be necessary if you use the limited power casters I mentioned above. -Peace- P.S. If I think of anything else I'll try to remember to post it. Warlock, now that's a good Idea. I was already considering Heros of Horror for some optional rules, which book are the Warlock in again?
NthDegree256 11-10-06, 12:56 AM	Warlock is in Complete Arcane.
periscope 11-10-06, 01:07 AM	Instead of the wizards and the sorceror, you could just use one of the white mage and black mage variants on the boards. Though you would have to make a green mage for the druid spells (just give it the druid spell list and you should be fine) and through together some class features. These use magic points though you could just give them a sorcerors spells per day. White mage http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7524802#post7524802&origin= Black mage http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7516093#post7516093&origin= There is also one called the willshaper that takes a backlash each time it casts a spell and can potentially know every spell of every book (not at the same time dont worry) Will shaper http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683212
Necropolitan 11-10-06, 01:30 AM	Instead of the wizards and the sorceror, you could just use one of the white mage and black mage variants on the boards. Though you would have to make a green mage for the druid spells (just give it the druid spell list and you should be fine) and through together some class features. These use magic points though you could just give them a sorcerors spells per day. White mage http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7524802#post7524802&origin= Black mage http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7516093#post7516093&origin= There is also one called the willshaper that takes a backlash each time it casts a spell and can potentially know every spell of every book (not at the same time dont worry) Will shaper http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683212 This is another good idea, I wanted to have at least two 'Sects' of caster ICly, One whom stuided the natural maniuplation of the Dark Places' resident disgruntled spirits through Runic Bindings and summons, which would fit a typical 'Wizard' bookish caster well, and another whom are born half on, half off of the Dark Places, and can tap the energies themselves with serious consequences if they aren't careful - that'd fit a Warlock fairly well don't you think? This is promising, but I have to ask about the higher-level spell damage, I don't want to outrightly nerf spells, though if I did, I'd be honest and tell my PCs it's because they were too damaging for the setting, rather then making up some BS line about how thehy were some IC taboo or such crap.
Nairalimis 11-10-06, 01:37 AM	One trick might be to make magic cost more, rather than nerf it. Make the higher level spells more ritualistic, with longer casting times. Toss in some disturbing components (wish requires the sacrifice of a child for example), or keep the odd components very rare. You may want to invoke a corruption mechanic with magic, where using too much of it can twist the caster and those near him. Have a list of spells that are "safe" to use, either morally or in terms of component ease, and pick ones that aren't insane. Also, nerf the stadard spell list. Ruthlessly purge spells out (lots of things from the Spell Compendium for example) that are too potent or thematically unfitting.
Necropolitan 11-10-06, 01:42 AM	One trick might be to make magic cost more, rather than nerf it. Make the higher level spells more ritualistic, with longer casting times. Toss in some disturbing components (wish requires the sacrifice of a child for example), or keep the odd components very rare. You may want to invoke a corruption mechanic with magic, where using too much of it can twist the caster and those near him. Have a list of spells that are "safe" to use, either morally or in terms of component ease, and pick ones that aren't insane. Also, nerf the stadard spell list. Ruthlessly purge spells out (lots of things from the Spell Compendium for example) that are too potent or thematically unfitting. Hnnn, has anyone thought up a good, working backlash or Courrutption system? I'm referencing heavily on the Silent Hill series and the Cthulhu Mythos for plot devices and general theme and tone, so Magic is something that messes you up in the head, and sometimes bodily - heck there's an entire branch of Courrutpion based 'magical' items called Parasitics; one of which is the Parasite Blade, which grafts a strength-enhacning blade into hidded caveties into your arm. Magic is *supposed* to be ugly, nasty and something most peopel would intriniscally avoid, and also obscure, I'm setting this somewhere between 1995 and 2006 in Rural/Plainland America as the starting point, in a little burg called Styx's Crossing. I agree on the spell purge, I think a few will have to go outright sheerly for lack of fluff, like Lightining Bolt... heck most of the Evocation school might end up nerfed, because magic isn't supposed to work that.... directly. Magic is a Scapel, not a Broadsword.
Nairalimis 11-10-06, 02:05 AM	If you've ever heard of an RPG called Unknown Armies, take a look at it. Postmodern magic, done in a very very disturbing style, probably some good ideas for the game. Off the top of my head, one idea is to set up backlash based on spell type, which for ease of reference will be school. So each school of magic is going to have a "style" of backlash, and you might even group them into a few sets. Off-hand, we'll start with the basics. Casting a spell automatically incures an amount of corruption equal to (Spell level-4), with a minimum of 0. So 5th and higher spells give you some corruption no matter what, which should keep high end magic in careful use. Corruption is flavored by the magic used to cast it, and does not always stack. When casting a spell in a corrupted area (places tainted by evil) a mage must make a Will save (DC 11+Spell level) or gain one corruption point per two spell levels (round up). Which offers you the nice ability to give tainted locations where magic is more dangerous. When casting a spell with the [Tainted] descriptor, increase the spell's effective level by 3 for the two rules above. Toss the [Tainted] descriptor on spells you want to keep dangerous, creepy, or costly while not booting them out entirely. Wish, Limited Wish, Raise Dead, and such. You can also have Lesser Tainted (+1 level) or Greater Tainted (+5) for some variety if you feel like it. Toss on some mechanics for the basic effects of corruption. We'll say corruption less than (1/2 class level + Wis Modifier) is a nice starting point, has no effect. But gaining more than your Wisdom modifier at once can have some effects. Gaining more than your wisdom modifier at once requires a Will save (DC equal to the save against the spell cast) or risk gaining a short term insanity (1d4 days +1 per corruption point over the Wis Modifier.) Once you break past your safety level, you have effects. Less than 5 over is a minor corruption Less than 10 over is a major corruption Less than 15 is a great corruption Over 15 is DM Fiat, and may god have mercy on your soul Corruptions cannot be saved against, but a save (usually Will or Fort, based on the type of Corruption) may be made to resist the effects for a turn. This is a move action, and has a DC equal to 10+Corruption points Now, for the grouped magics. Divination/Illusion: The schools of knowledge, both hidden the uncovered. Corruption from one school adds to corruption in the other. Corruptions in these schools relate to knowledge or perceptions. Minor: Lose a minor childhood memory, become unnable to speak of what you have learned for (1d4 hours), Major: See a creature or building that does not exist as part of the normal enviroment, go catatonic for 1d4 hours with the information, cease to exist to your family for 3 days. Great: Lose years of memory, become unnable to recall the love of your life, be cursed to permanently see something that does not exist. Enchantment/Alteration: Changing both mind and body, these two schools are the principle of dyanmic magic. Corruption from one school adds to corruption in the other. Minor: Major: Great: Conjuration/Evocation/: The calling of power and creatures from other realms, these schools form the principle of creation. Corruption from one school adds to corruption in the other. Minor: Major: Great: Necromancy: Calling on the spirits of death, necromancy opens the caster to the darkest forces. Necromancy corruption takes the highest of the others and adds it directly to corruption. (This is under the necromancy=evil idea, under necro=grey, toss it in with Conjuration and Evocation) Abjuration: I got nothing here. Ideas on Corruptions to come later for most of them.
belthazzar1113 11-10-06, 02:08 AM	i can't belive no one suggested it... but if your going horror, then nothing beats the binder... sharing your soul with vestiges from beyond the pale of life and death, bearing strange and horrible mutations in exchange for worldly power.... mystica symbols written in blood to draw forgotten elder gods back into the world. please what part of that isn't perfect?! if your loking for a good workable backlast system its 3rd party but i highly recomend checking out chaos magic. its got a great system for trading life for power. basically works like the old epic level spell casting with base power seeds and adding modifiers to a spell. tone it back a bit for the power level and presto you got two very viable magic systems and you can leave out wizards, sorcs, clerics druids and all the other problem classes completely.
Necropolitan 11-10-06, 02:31 AM	If you've ever heard of an RPG called Unknown Armies, take a look at it. Postmodern magic, done in a very very disturbing style, probably some good ideas for the game. I'll look into it on my next book splurge; So far I need to find a copy of Call of Cthulhu, Complete Arcane and Heros of Horror; I homebrew 905 of my stuff, so I tend to be able to get by on Crystal Keep and the SRD for most of my games, but a DM can't do everything! Off the top of my head, one idea is to set up backlash based on spell type, which for ease of reference will be school. So each school of magic is going to have a "style" of backlash, and you might even group them into a few sets. This gives me ideas that tie in to my natural want to port the Call of Cthulhu sanity system. I've already got a few concepts. Off-hand, we'll start with the basics. Casting a spell automatically incures an amount of corruption equal to (Spell level-4), with a minimum of 0. So 5th and higher spells give you some corruption no matter what, which should keep high end magic in careful use. Corruption is flavored by the magic used to cast it, and does not always stack. This is good because it'll make characters activly think about wasting their 'resources'; in this case their own BODY; having them attack a specific part of the character's stats or such would be a good idea, I like the idea of Strength and Con damage from spells of the Necromancy school, for example; makes that Mageish character with the low con have to weigh if Brom can fisnish off that Flesher with his Magnum taking less damage then it would inflict for her to cast Slay Living. When casting a spell in a corrupted area (places tainted by evil) a mage must make a Will save (DC 11+Spell level) or gain one corruption point per two spell levels (round up). Which offers you the nice ability to give tainted locations where magic is more dangerous. That is a *fabulous* Idea. Styx's Crossing is littered with catacombs and sunken buildings, since it's on an active Fault Line, so I've gotn tons of places I can work a Unholy, tainted place in; of course, filled to the brim with an appropriatly hideious resident. Moreover, I could put a few 'Boss Fights' in tainted areas, where magic is *key* to killing or driving it off, making the characters have to work together, and ration out healing and support items between the Warriors and the poor Caster who's taking all the courruption. Brilliant. When casting a spell with the [Tainted] descriptor, increase the spell's effective level by 3 for the two rules above. Toss the [Tainted] descriptor on spells you want to keep dangerous, creepy, or costly while not booting them out entirely. Wish, Limited Wish, Raise Dead, and such. You can also have Lesser Tainted (+1 level) or Greater Tainted (+5) for some variety if you feel like it. Again, Brillient, this will cut-down on the amount of PC-favorate spells I have to nerf; sure you can cast Ressurection on Davis' mutilated body.... if your willing to pay the price for it. *Sinister cackle.* Would be good for fostering bonds between non-casters, and the decidadly... creepy casters; afterall, spending some fo their bodily matter to heal your mortal wounds is pretty heady stuff. Toss on some mechanics for the basic effects of corruption. We'll say corruption less than (1/2 class level + Wis Modifier) is a nice starting point, has no effect. But gaining more than your Wisdom modifier at once can have some effects. Gaining more than your wisdom modifier at once requires a Will save (DC equal to the save against the spell cast) or risk gaining a short term insanity (1d4 days +1 per corruption point over the Wis Modifier.) Once you break past your safety level, you have effects. Less than 5 over is a minor corruption Less than 10 over is a major corruption Less than 15 is a great corruption Over 15 is DM Fiat, and may god have mercy on your soul Corruptions cannot be saved against, but a save (usually Will or Fort, based on the type of Corruption) may be made to resist the effects for a turn. This is a move action, and has a DC equal to 10+Corruption points Mmmm, I'll have to put some kind of 'Purifying' plot device in there, something exceedingly rare so PCs won't be scared to death of casting spells, but won't be too eager to be slinging death magic left and right. Sounds about right with some tweaking, though I do like the level scaling idea, makes the characters more resistent to the 'Horrors of the Dark' as they see things Not Meant For Man more often. Toughening of the mind as it were. Divination/Illusion: The schools of knowledge, both hidden the uncovered. Corruption from one school adds to corruption in the other. Corruptions in these schools relate to knowledge or perceptions. I'll want to keep Div's penalties low, but long-lasting, and not too devastating if stacked, as Div spells like 'Scrying' and other such for deceiphering the effect of the Dark Places on the real world will be used quite often, and I'd rather it didn't kill the casters off at level 1. Minor: Lose a minor childhood memory, become unnable to speak of what you have learned for (1d4 hours), This is very good, opens up a door to the classic 'Incapaciated Comrade' Horror scenario, I'd *have* to time this to a sudden Monster Attack or two, so they have to try to snap the player out of it while holding off the Horrors. Major: See a creature or building that does not exist as part of the normal enviroment, go catatonic for 1d4 hours with the information, cease to exist to your family for 3 days. Hmmmm, this lines up with the Continuity quite well, but I'm not sure how many characters will have family nearby. Though catatonia is again, good for the classic horror scenearios. Great: Lose years of memory, become unnable to recall the love of your life, be cursed to permanently see something that does not exist. Hah. I'd be inclined to abuse this as a DM, give them a 'Imaginary Friend' who's not so friendly. For enchantment I'd like to play with 'Magic Residue' sort of a cast-off of enchanting the item, probably more direct physcial damage to reprisent feeding part of your own energies into the item to be enchanted, I might evne re-write the component to require a certian amount of HP's worth of blood to be used to cast each spell. Conj. And Evocation should have phsyically draining courruptions I think, such as fatiuging or exausting the character, as they channel power from The Dark Places, and for Conj. Espeically there should be Will-Saves to control summoned beasts, lest they EAT you instead. Necromancy is directly sihpon part of the Dark Places' reality into our own. It's wholly, utterly evil and should by rights, mess you the hell up. Badly. Good, GOOD ideas! Keep em coming!
angryscrub 11-10-06, 10:54 AM	Have you thought about maybe making full spellcasting classes prestige classes? IE, no one starts off as a full caster, but has to learn their way into it. This could totally eliminate 9th level spells from your game except in items you choose to provide, and slow down the casting progression. I was thinking something like, let people start off as a bard (maybe change the name of the class for this, seeker after knowledge, or something), but give them the option to give up bardic music progression in exchange for a bonus feat progression. Like one at first level then one every four levels after that or something. Then for instance, wizard would have a requirement of the magical aptitude feat and 6 ranks in each of alchemy and knowledge arcana, while a cleric would require the true believer feat and 6 ranks in knowledge religion and profession priest. Possibly add in a language requirement or two also, that they can't start off knowing, like draconic or infernal. You could also easily combine this with the corrupting stuff, and would definitely end up with a situation where the casters could useful, but I don't think would outshine the non pure casters.
Necropolitan 11-10-06, 04:43 PM	Have you thought about maybe making full spellcasting classes prestige classes? IE, no one starts off as a full caster, but has to learn their way into it. This could totally eliminate 9th level spells from your game except in items you choose to provide, and slow down the casting progression. I was thinking something like, let people start off as a bard (maybe change the name of the class for this, seeker after knowledge, or something), but give them the option to give up bardic music progression in exchange for a bonus feat progression. Like one at first level then one every four levels after that or something. Then for instance, wizard would have a requirement of the magical aptitude feat and 6 ranks in each of alchemy and knowledge arcana, while a cleric would require the true believer feat and 6 ranks in knowledge religion and profession priest. Possibly add in a language requirement or two also, that they can't start off knowing, like draconic or infernal. You could also easily combine this with the corrupting stuff, and would definitely end up with a situation where the casters could useful, but I don't think would outshine the non pure casters. Hmmm, that's an option, switching the various mage-colors into ten-Level PrCs. Perhaps I could use a Warlock fix to give the 'Natural Spark' required for Dark Places magic to function correctly as the base class for casters; Sort of allude that more 'controlled' magic has to be learned through metnal anguish and study, and the rest is just raw energetic channeling of Dark Places energy. I'd have to attach some Courruption blacklash to Eldtricth Blast though, Hrm.