Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xper_Iance 12-01-07, 11:49 PM	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Samurai_with_weapons_-_Kusakabe%2C_Kimbei%2C_1841-1934.jpg ---To show what I mean I wasn't satisfied with the Samurai as in the Complete Warrior. I edited it to make this. What do you think? Please be brutally honest. I wanted to make this so that a fighter could not mimic it. Hit Dice: d10 Level BaB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Fighting Style, Soulbound Weapon 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 1st Style Ability 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Jujutsu Technique 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Soul Protection, The Uruwashii Path 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Quick Draw 6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Staredown 7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Jujutsu Technique 8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Defensive Throw, The Uruwashii Path 9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Lightning Kata 10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Mass Staredown 11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 2nd Style Ability 12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Jujutsu Technique, The Uruwashii Path 13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Soul Protection 14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Improved Staredown 15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Earth Kata 16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Become the Uruwashii 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 3rd Style Ability 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Jujutsu Technique 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Soul Recall 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Frightening Presence b b Armor and Weapons Proficiency: A Samurai is Proficient with all types of armor and weapons, but not with shields. Fighting Style When a samurai trains he learns all styles of fighting and becomes a very versatile warrior, but one of his styles becomes more prevalent and becomes his favored way of fighting. Daisho - The way of the Daiso is the way of the two swords. One heavy, one light. A samurai learns to make them extension of himself in fluid attacks. The Daisho Style is the use of the Katana (Masterwork Bastard Sword) and the Wakizashi (Masterwork Short Sword). Choosing the Daisho style gives Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana) allowing the Samurai to use it in one hand. Yumi - Learning to fight with the Yumi (Masterwork Greatbow) is essential to a samurai in combat. A Samurai skilled with the Yumi is able to pick off his targets at a distance before switching to close quarters weapons. Choosing the Yumi as your preferred weapon style gives you Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Yumi) Yari - Keeping your foes at bay with two swords is only one way of fighting. A Yari (Masterwork Greatspear) is an alternative that allows a samurai to pierce the armor of a foe more easily. Learning to fight with a Yari alone however is not enough and the Yari fighting style promotes the use of terrain, peripheral vision and more Jujustsu techniques then the standard Samurai. Choosing the Yari as your preferred weapon gives you Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Yari) 1st Style Abilities Daisho - Two Weapon Fighting (even if the prerequisites are not met) Yumi - Point Blank Shot Yari - Jujutso Technique (An extra technique as per the 3rd level samurai ability.) 2nd Style Abilities Daisho - Improved Two Weapon Fighting Yumi - Shot on the Run (even if the prerequisites are not met) Yari - Instep Knockdown Technique - After scoring a critical hit with the Yari the samurai may then move in to attack with another unarmed strike. In addition to the regular damage from an unarmed strike the samurai also has a chance of knocking his opponent prone. The samurai may choose to make a trip attempt against his opponent along with the damage from his unarmed strike. This is a Special Attack. 3rd Style Abilities Daisho - Rending Strike - If a Samurai lands a hit from both his Katana and Wakizashi in a standard attack he adds double his strength modifier in damage. This is a Special Attack Yumi - Ripping Shot - Whenever a samurai shoots his Yumi he may choose to hit everyone in a line within 60ft. This ability hits both friend and foe in the line. The Samurai must make an attack roll for each person in the line in turn from closest to farthest. If the arrow misses a foe then the arrow does not continue on to hit the next foe. This line attack also stops if the arrow encounters a DR that it may not bypass. This is a Special Attack. Yari - Whirlwind Attack (even if the prerequisites are not met) Soulbound Weapon Living through many hardships with his weapon a Samurai has grown to treat his favored weapon as an extension of himself, even so far as to believe it houses a part of his soul. A favored weapon is considered to be the weapon that a Samurai has chosen to be his main fighting style. If a samurai is in battle and his favored weapon is destroyed or damaged beyond non-magical repair either through sunder, shatter or a some similar effect then the Samurai is Demoralized as per the intimidation effect for the rest of the battle and any future battles without his favored weapon. And must make a DC 15 Will Save; a failure results in a loss of 200xp per Samurai Level, a success results in a xp loss of half that amount. In order to attain a new weapon the samurai must take any remaining piece of his original weapon, or if nothing remains, to shave off his entire head and burn it in a funeral fire to signify the loss of a part of his soul to Kamisama (or his belief) and then use the ashes and wash the weapon he wishes to become the new location of a part of his soul. Jujutsu Technique A Samurai may choose from this list of feats when he is able to aquire a new Jujustsu technique. These feats may be chose even if prerequisites are not met. Improved Unarmed Strike Improved Disarm Improved Trip Improved Grapple Improved Sunder Improved Overun Soul Protection The Samurai protects his blade like his own arm. If a foe attempts to disarm or sunder a Samurai's Soulbound weapon, he gets a +2 competence bonus on his defense roll against the attempt. The samurai takes a penalty of -2 to his AC for the rest of the round. The Samurai may do this once per round. At 13th level these bonus increases to +6 the penalty remains the same The Uruwashii Path Every Samurai cherishes not only his fighting prowess, but his finer skills as well. This ability gives you a choice of one of these bonuses whenever the Samurai attains a level with this ability. The Samurai however may not make money from using these abilities. (Through begging or a selling his skill) The Art of Tea making - +2 situational bonus on diplomacy if you make some tea for the person you are speaking with. The Art of the Dance - The ability to use the skill Preform (Dance) with a +2 bonus if there is traditional asian music playing. The Literary Arts - May learn two languages for every one skill point in the skill Learn Language. The Art of the Song - The ability to use the skill Preform (Sing) with a +2 bonus if singing a traditional asian song. The Art of the Haiku - The ability to use the skill Preform (Poetry) with a +2 bonus if writing or preforming a Haiku. The Knowledge of History - The ability to use the skill Knowledge (History) with a +2 bonus to know people who were skilled at something the Samurai learned from the ability The Uruwashii Path or to recall a battle or war. The Art of Gardening - The ability to use the skill Profession (Gardening) with a +2 bonus if making a Zen garden or growing a Bonsai tree. (A spiritual garden for good luck and to please the eyes that does not have food growing, but may have fish, preferably ones valued for beauty.) The Art of Weapon Making - The ability to use the skill Craft (Weaponry) with a +2 bonus if making a Katana, Wakizashi or Yari. The Art of Bow Making - The Ability to use the skill Craft (Bowmaking) with a +2 bonus if making a Yumi. Defensive Throw If an opponent attempts to trip, grapple, bull rush or overrun and the opponent fails the Samurai may attempt to trip the opponent an immediate action. Lightning Kata +1 bonus on Reflex saves made by the Samurai. Staredown and Improvements -As per Samurai in Complete Warrior. I've always wanted to be able to scare people as I was fighting. This seems logical to me. What sane person wouldn't be scared of a one-man killing machine? Earth Kata Lessens Armor Check penalties by 2 for Balance Checks, Climb Checks, Tumble Checks and the Samurai is treated as if the his weapons and armor are 20lbs lighter. (This does not reduce the weight below 0) Become the Uruwashii The bonuses a Samurai receives from his Uruwashii abilities are doubled. (The Number of Languages learned per skill point is not doubled because that is not a bonus) Soul Recall Whenever the Samurai's Soulbound weapon is destroyed or damaged beyond repair the Samurai's soul returns to him. He may not use any of his Staredown Abilities until he attains another similar weapon to the one lost and places his soul inside it. The threat of xp penalty for losing you weapon in battle is effectively negated. Alright, there it is, how do you feel about letting a player in your campaign chose it? How about if only Oriental Classes were allowed? Is is a one man party? Are the monster-borrowed special attacks a bit much? EDITS: Added full BAB progression (12/2/07) Added Weapons and Armor Proficiency (12/2/07) Added Soulbound Weapon (12/2/07) Added The Uruwashii Path (12/2/07) Added Become the Uruwashii (12/2/07) Added Soul Protection (12/2/07) Added Soul Recall (12/2/07) Added Lightning Kata (12/2/07) Added Earth Kata (12/2/07) Added Defensive Throw (12/2/07)
vorpo 12-02-07, 10:10 AM	Pls drop me a note in the Peach Market (my sig) as to what category to put you under. Make sure you link the class when you post. Where are the class skills and weapon/armor proficiencies entries? In your table, if you are not going to list all the multiattack progression (+20/+15/+10/+5) you might as well leave it just +20. 7 dead levels. What's worse is there are 2 instances of CONSECUTIVE dead lvls.
Xper_Iance 12-02-07, 11:02 AM	well, alright I'll add those entries. But they are identical to the complete warrior entries. Well it was already kinda overpowered so I thought it might be too insane to give it an ability every level. But I'll try to fix all those things and I will link it to the Peach thread. EDIT: added everything but something for the dead levels. any suggestions? anyone?
Anguish2 12-02-07, 12:12 PM	Okay, 7 dead levels. So 13 live levels. 3 of which are progression of the staredown ability and one is Frightful Presence. Ultimately that means you've given 9 feats, Staredown, and FP. Compare to a Fighter that gets 11 bonus feats and nothing else. Also recall that Fighter is considered to probably be on average slightly on the weak side of balance. The Staredown chain sacrifices an action (standard or move) to make one or more opponents shaken for one round. Not a terrible trade-off against a full attack. Point is that this isn't as mechanically powerful as it might seem at first. Yes, it has its moments where it may be impressive, but there's a price. I wouldn't be afraid to add a couple goodies to round the class out. I'd not give as much as a feat, but perhaps things like: Quick Sheath - you may sheath one held weapon as a swift action, or two held weapons if you have the Two Weapon Fighting feat. Lightning Kata - your constant practice with fluid motions gives you a +1 circumstance bonus to Reflex saves. Honoured Weaponry - your emotional attachment to your weapons-of-choice gives you a +2 bonus to defend against disarm and sunder attempts with your chosen weapon(s). You suffer a -2 penalty to AC after defending your weapons in this way. Stuff like that which either offers a minimal statistical advantage, or also include a drawback. That's my input.
Xper_Iance 12-02-07, 02:30 PM	I wanted to add this in the beginning, but I was working out how to do it, but then I remembered familiars. Soulbound Weapon - Living through many hardships with his weapon a Samurai has grown to treat his favored weapon as an extension of himself, even so far as to believe it houses a part of his soul. A favored weapon is considered to be the weapon that a Samurai has chosen to be his main fighting style. If a samurai is in battle and his favored weapon is destroyed or damaged beyond non-magical repair either through sunder, shatter or a some similar effect then the Samurai is Demoralized as per the intimidation effect for the rest of the battle and any future battles without his favored weapon. And must make a DC 15 Will Save; a failure results in a loss of 200xp per Samurai Level, a success results in a xp loss of half that amount. In order to attain a new weapon the samurai must take any remaining piece of his original weapon, or if nothing remains, to shave off his entire head and burn it in a funeral fire to signify the loss of a part of his soul to Kamisama (or his belief) and then use the ashes and wash the weapon he wishes to become the new location of a part of his soul. This is maybe an exaggeration of the truth, but it should offset any major benefits a samurai has. To be added at level one. What are your opinions ------- Now onto the dead levels. I like your +2 vs Disarm and Sunder attempts ability, Anguish2 so I will add that at the 4th level. At 8th I'm thinking: Defensive Throw - If an opponent attempts to trip, grapple, bull rush or overrun and the opponent fails the Samurai may attempt to trip the opponent as a free action. At 9th: Lighting Kata would be fine. I'm still thinking on the other dead levels.
Kanachi 12-02-07, 05:36 PM	I like this mainly because of its simplicity, I don’t mean that in a derogatory way by the way so please don’t take it as such. I think this would be a very nice class for someone quite new to the game to try out as all its abilities are quite simple to understand and its overall power level is quite good. It would therefore be hard to “mess up” a build using this class. If your after more ideas your more than welcome to take a peek at my version of a samurai and see if you can draw any inspiration from it :D
Xper_Iance 12-02-07, 05:45 PM	Thank you Kanachi. Your thread actually has helped me much because it has helped me remember that a Samurai isn't only a fighting man. He knows other skills also. And thank you so much for the positive comments. Now to add in the abilities.
Surgo 12-02-07, 07:09 PM	You're basically a fighter with fewer feats, and some of these feats are set in stone. You'll want to do a lot of beefing up of this class...maybe at all those dead levels? You shouldn't have any dead levels.
Xper_Iance 12-02-07, 07:15 PM	Hurrah! I have filled in all the levels with some ability!. Please keep the suggestions coming though as I still don't know if this is balanced or not.
Surgo 12-03-07, 10:48 AM	Seriously, make it stronger. Abilities like: The Art of Gardening - The ability to use the skill Profession (Gardening) with a +2 bonus if making a Zen garden or growing a Bonsai tree. (A spiritual garden for good luck and to please the eyes that does not have food growing, but may have fish, preferably ones valued for beauty.) do absolutely nothing to make this guy not a suckier fighter. A good rule of thumb is to think about what level you're giving a class an ability at. Then, go look at the monster manual and find all the monsters of that CR. That ability should be helping you defeat up to about half of them. A +2 to profession (gardening) checks isn't about to help you against any of the following: aranea, hound archons, barghests, brown bears, polar bears, giant crocodiles, dire boars, dire wolverines, gargoyles, jannis, giant stag beetles, griffons, sea hags, harpies, five-headed hydras, wearboars, mimics, minotaurs, grey oozes, owlbears, otyughs, rhinoceroses, sea cats, huge sharks, chimera skeletons, or vampire spawn (a list of most of the CR 4 monsters in the monster manual). I won't even get into how insulting the ability is at levels 8, 12, and 16. This class needs to be stronger. A lot stronger.
Captain_Kobold 12-03-07, 12:13 PM	A few points: You say the samurai is proficient with all types of armour and weapons. Do you mean all Simple and Martial, or every single exotic weapon as well? Likewise with armour? Fighting style: You have two of the mainstream Samurai styles there, as well as the somewhat rare two-weapon style. What about the most common sword style of the Samurai: with the sword used in two hands? What is the basis for comparison that you are using for power level? This seems to gat far more featlike abilities than the Fighter class, which is what it should be compared with. If you are using a different melee combat class to compare it with, then which one? Yumi: Ripping shot. This ability initially looked a little like one of the higher-end abilities of the Order of the Bow initiate prestige class. I then realised it was far more powerful than that. If you want to have something like this, at least make it a full-round or Standard action, not just whenever the Samurai shoots his Yumi. Soul protection: Nice ability. Perhaps extend it to saving throws from effects targeting the weapon whilst it is in the Samurai's possession. (Such as against the Shatter or Disintegrate spells for example.) Alright, there it is, how do you feel about letting a player in your campaign chose it? How about if only Oriental Classes were allowed? Is is a one man party? Are the monster-borrowed special attacks a bit much? As it stands, I would not allow a player in my campaign to choose this class. It might not be a one-man party, but it is considerably better than the Fighter, with which it shares a role. With Feats and featlike abilities at almost all levels, this class would mean that there would be little reason to use the fighter class unless playing a specific concept that could not be reached with this one. Even then, the Samurai class would outshine most builds. Unless we were playing a particularly optimised or high-level game, I would require a player to water this class down somewhat before use. It is not so much the individual abilities, that are the problem, just the sheer volume that the class recieves, particularly since normal prerequisites are generally ignored. I'm not counting the Uruwashii techniques, they are good for flavour and have little mechanical benefit, just the combat ones.
RobbyPants 12-03-07, 12:45 PM	I noticed your style abilities come at 2nd, 11th, and 17th levels. You might want to consider changing that to 2nd, 6th and 11th instead. If you want a higher level ability, add in a 4th style ability at 16th level. The biggest reason I suggest this is for the TWF daisho style. There's no way I'd consider playing a dedicated TWFer that had to wait until 11th level to get my 2nd offhand attack when I could just take the feat at 6th level. Also, you might want to create a little more incentive to take TWF in the first place. Because of the -2 penalty you take when using two weapons, and the risk you take of damage reduction, you need a way to get your per-attack damage up. Rangers can get this with their favored enemy bonus. Combat-oriented rogues do this with sneak attack. I'm not sure exactly how you'd do this with the samurai, but some bonus would make it more attractive. Perhaps they can qualify for the fighter's Weapon Specialization tree, but only for the weapon(s) of their style focus. While you're throwing in various styles, conisder adding two more: mounted combat, and two-handed fighting (i.e. using a single katana in two hands). I think a fair amount of samaui were skilled mounted combatants, and many used just their katana primarily. Often, (so far as I know ;)) the wakizashi was more of a backup weapon and/or used for sepuku, rather than being used in the off hand. I like a lot of what you've done so far, and I like the first three styles you've created. One last suggestion for the styles. For the yari (spear) style, if the weapon has reach, give the Short Haft feat (Complete Warrior or PHB2, I don't remember which) at 2nd level as the first style benifit. Then they can use their polearm in threatening squares.
Xper_Iance 12-03-07, 04:49 PM	Now those are some good comments. Okay, I started making this class by slightly modifying the original one in CW, but I got quite carried away and soon only frightful presence and Daisho remained. Now to address some comments: Surgo alright you say the class is weak, now I would consider your oppinion as valid as the people who came after you, but you mentioned a Uruwashii ability as a reason. Now, if hadn't and seemed like you understood those abilities were for flavor then I would consider you as valid in your opinion. As it stands the one who came after you has convinced me this is too powerful. But your statement has helped me somewhat which is what I'll discuss later. Cpt. K First, thanks for pointing out that I left something that should be common knowledge open. (I'll go change the W/A Proficiencies.) Second, I knew my crazy abilities would come into question at some point, but I waited until someone with more knowledge then me would come to assist me with developing how I can make the styles more then just feats. I was basing this actually on the samurai at first, but then I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a rehash of the fighter with feats and such. Right now you have convinced me this is overpowered compared to the other fighter types. Oh and thanks for the Soul Protection suggestion, I'll add that. RobbyPants I like what you said. Now that I think about it the progressive levels for style abilities and many others are quite out of wack. Improved Two Weapon Fighting? yeah the fact that the origional had only those for his specialization was pretty lame to me, I guess I just forgot while thinking about the Yari and Yumi. EDIT: oh and I will add in some more styles, Mounted Combat is something I was thinking too. Now, you three have taught me these four things. 1) The higher end abilities are overpowered. (Ripping Shot) 2) Some abilities are pretty lame for the level you get them. (Imp. TWF) 3) The abilities should be more logically spaced and the strength should be spread out through the levels more. 4) Some people hate flavor. (I bet you hate things like the ranger's track too.) Now I'll go rework the class and post again when I'm done moving around abilities and making some weaker. The rest of you can continue to suggest things, but please don't make it a repeat of what everyone has just said, because I will be changing them while you post most likely.
Surgo 12-03-07, 06:23 PM	How the hell is Ripping Shot overpowered? The mage could do that with a lightning bolt 12 levels ago. So the Samurai can do it a bunch of times a round? Great, it's good to see fighting types finally getting a few nice toys at high level. In case you forgot, 17 is the level that the mage gets a spell to kill everyone in a 60' radius. This ability is peanuts compared to that. It's not that abilities for flavor suck, it's that they might as well be dead levels. And dead levels are bad. I really have no idea what Captain_Kobold is complaining about here. Even if the fighter didn't suck (which it does, but we'll pretend it doesn't for the sake of argument), the fighter's "class features" amount to 11 bonus feats that you can spend on pretty much what you want. Most of this samurai's class abilities amount to exactly the same thing as feats, and it gets a good deal less of them than the fighter does (I count 8), some of which aren't choices because you're locked into them. The rest of the class abilities are either useless (Uruwashii), not features and actually weaknesses (Soulbound Weapon), or just weak in general (Staredown, Earth Kata).
Thorkell 12-03-07, 08:46 PM	And wow, does soulbound weapon just make this class terrible. Not only is the class mechanically weak, you actively penalize him. Anyone with sunder, shatter, or quite a few monster capabilities not only weakens him, but also sets back as his advancement. Really, to be brutally honest, like you asked, I'd expect the other players at the table to go out of their way to break his weapon until the player got the hint and played something capable. Against multiple attacks, or opponents, Soul protection is more of a penalty than a bonus. Bad. You also need to explain what you mean by special attack. Its not really a game term at all. Is it a full round action, standard action, or what? Rending strike really needs to be clarified. Standard attack action is a single attack, so he can't ever be attacking with both (outside of certain feats and PrC abilities). Second, applying damage bonuses recursively is bad. If you want to rend, use the rend rules, not 'go back and add damage = str modifier to every attack you made'. 2nd and 3rd style abilities come way to late to be meaningful. Lightning Kata. No, really. This is a 9th level ability thats half as good as Lightning Reflexes. Flavorwise. You need an option for single sword style. Two sword was a rarity, and when it was first introduced (fairly late) it was considered suspect, if not outright dishonorable. Also, he should not be proficient in all weapons. All weapons that would be considered honorable, perhaps. But definitely not anything peasant derived. You need skill points. And honestly give him 4/level and ditch the Uruwashii bonuses in favor of something... useful. Class is definitely not balanced. Its bottom tier, at best.
Xper_Iance 12-03-07, 11:45 PM	Now there are some good comments. I now believe that the abilities are underpowered. Looks Like I'll have to completely restructure the class. Here are the different types of abilities I think he should have. Notes: I looked up monster abilities for some of these abilities I gave him and Rend was one of them that I couldn't actually find in the glossary. I couldn't reverse engineer it either. Help please? And I guess I could remove the overall loss of sword = xp penalty. How about some Suggestions people? I making this so it's fun to play. How about some really out-there stuff? Styles Diasho Sword (now that I read it, they only used one sword at a time, but always carried the set. Guess some were used for some things and the other for other battles.) Yumi Bow Yari Spear ? Mounted Combat Jujutsu Technique Melee and opponent control feats. (I could put Defensive Throw in here too along with some other made up stuff. I could also make it tiered.) Katas Lightning and Earth for now (maybe I'll make it so you pick and choose.) I might also add: Fire Kata, Water Kata, Wind Kata, Metal Kata, Wood Kata and Void Kata. (Since I'm going with that Lightning should be removed) Staredown Abilities Self explanatory Unique stuff Soul Protection. Uruwashii I guess I could just give him more skill points.