Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ff6shadow 12-27-07, 01:03 PM	This is my monk rewrite. For my others, they are linked in both the Peach Market and my sig. Please post and give me your opinions of this class, and any of my others that you'd liked to give me feedback on. Most changes are bolded. Alignment: Any non-chaotic Hit Die: d8 Class Skills The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier. Speed AC Flurry Level BAB Fort Ref Will Bonus Bonus Attacks Special 1 0 2 2 1 +0 +0 -2/-2 Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Wisdom to AC 2 1 3 3 1 +10 +0 -1/-1 Bonus Feat, Evasion 3 2 3 3 2 +10 +0 +0/+0 Still Mind 4 3 4 4 2 +10 +1 +1/+1 Ki Strike (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft 5 3 4 4 3 +10 +1 +2/+2 Purity of Body 6 4 5 5 3 +10 +1 +3/+3 Bonus Feat, Slow Fall 30ft 7 5 5 5 3 +10 +1 +4/+4 Wholeness of Body 8 6 6 6 4 +20 +2 +5/+5 Slow Fall 40ft, Improved Weaponry 9 6 6 6 4 +20 +2 +6/+6 Improved Evasion 10 7 7 7 5 +20 +2 +7/+7 Ki Strike (Alignment), Slow Fall 50ft 11 8 7 7 5 +20 +2 +8/+8/+8 Diamond Body, Greater Flurry 12 9 8 8 6 +20 +3 +9/+9/+9 Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60ft 13 9 8 8 6 +20 +3 +9/+9/+9 Diamond Soul, Bonus Feat 14 10 9 9 6 +30 +3 +10/+10/+10 Slow Fall 70ft, Superior Weaponry 15 11 9 9 7 +30 +3 +11/+11/+11 Quivering Palm 16 12 10 10 7 +30 +4 +12/+12/+12 Ki Strike (Adamantine), Slow Fall 80ft 17 12 10 10 8 +30 +4 +12/+12/+12 Timeless Body, Bonus Feat 18 13 11 11 8 +30 +4 +13/+13/+13 Slow Fall 90ft 19 14 11 11 9 +30 +4 +14/+14/+14 Empty Body 20 15 12 12 9 +40 +5 +15/+15/+15 Perfect Self, Slow Fall any distance Class Features For ease of use, I'm only goign to specify new abilities, or abilities that have changed from the core monk. I'm also bolding changes within the actual abilities. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling. Monks are proficient with all light armors. When wearing non-light armor (even mithril or magically light armors), using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. AC Bonus (Ex): When the monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter (+2 at 8th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears medium or heavy armor (mithril or otherwise), when she uses a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. Wisdom to AC(Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. This bonuses to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she uses a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. Flurry of Blows (Ex): As written, with the following added afterwards: A monk may use flurry of blows as part of an attack action, such as when using Spring Attack, or as part of standard action. Bonus Feat (Ex): At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, or Improved Dodge as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, or Combat Expertise as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, or Spring Attack as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as weapons of her alignment for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness. Fast Movement (Ex): At 2nd level, a monk gains a bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. This bonus to speed increases at 8th level and every six levels thereafter. A monk in non-light armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed. Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to her current monk x her Wisdom modifier (minimum twice current monk level), and she can spread this healing out among several uses. Improved Weaponry(Ex):At 8th level, a monk may use the base unarmed damage of a monk 4 levels lower than she is, instead of the normal damage when fighting with a special monk weapon. When wielding a weapon in this way, he uses his unarmed damage die plus the weapon's magical properties. Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day per point of Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her caster level for this effect is her monk level. Diamond Soul (Ex): At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 13. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance. Bonus Feat (Ex): At 13th level, the monk gains her choice of one of the following feats: Greater Disarm, Greater Trip, or Size Doesn't Matter. She need not meet the prerequisites for these. Superior Weaponry (Ex): At 14th level, a monk can use his full base unarmed damage when using a special monk weapon. When wielding a weapon in this way, he uses his unarmed damage die plus the weapon's magical properties. Quivering Palm (Su): Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time. Bonus Feat (Ex): At 17th level, the monk can choose one of the following feats: Grappling Block, Defensive Throw, or Bounding Assault Empty Body (Su): At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 2 rounds per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level. Ex-Monks A monk who becomes chaotic cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities. A monk can return to monk after multi-classing. Overall, the increased skill points are there to enable the player to better utilize the monk's skill list, since most monks cannot really afford the invest in a significant Intelligence score. Flurry usable as part of an attack action or a standard action is there to enable the monk to do what his class is designed to be. He is supposed to be a skirmisher, relying on mobility and staying beyond enemy reach. Moving in the smack the enemy, then falling back before taking a full attack.This also helps a Spring Attacking monk make sense. Splitting the AC bonus was done for two reasons. The first was to weaken the monk's belt item. It emulates the flat bonus now, not the Wisdom to AC. The second reason was to allow monks the option to tank wisdom. The flat bonus to AC as well as flurry of blows and fast movement are no longer limited to an unarmored monk. A monk can now where light armor, but excluding mithral medium armors as well as armors that are light because of their magical properties (thinking of a specific Underdark armor property here). So a monk can wear light armor at low levels, and only go unarmored when money and increased wisdom make it viable, or simply ignore wisdom all together and keep a chain shirt handy for 20 levels. The extra bonus feats are to give the monk a further push into the skirmisher role. Combat Expertise gives can give the monk the option to play more defensive when cornered. Spring Attack synergizes well with the increased movement and the new addition to flurry. Improved Dodge is another minor increase to the monk's defenses. Greater Trip, Greater Disarm, and Size Doesn't Matter are specifically designed to enhance a monk's other bonus feats. The same applies to Grappling Block, Defensive Throw, and Bounding Assault. The slight increase to spell resistance helps it to matter, but we all know that many spellcasters will still break it. Improved and Superior Weaponry help to make a monk actually use his special weapons. As a side note, I charge the same price for an Amulet of Mighty Fists as for any weapon. The improved time on helps to make it useful more often. The slower reacharge time of Quivering Palm is both a bookeeping simplification, as well as allowing the monk to use a signature ability more than once a week. Finally, the extra uses of Abundant Step keep the ability from being pure single shot, and the improved caster level let's the monk keep up with a fleeing spellcaster who didn't teleport. Anyways, I wait for your comments. Thanks ahead of time. Edit: Sorry, forgot to mention feat locations. Bounding Assault - PHII Defensive Throw - Complete Warrior Grappling Block - Oriental Adventures Greater Trip - Seen in some of Lotus Crane's rebalanced stuff Prerequisites: Int 15, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, BAB +11 You gain a +4 bonus on trip checks. This stacks with Improved Trip. Special: This may be taken as a fighter bonus feat. Greater Disarm - Seen in some of Lotus Crane's rebalanced stuff Prerequisites: Int 15, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, BAB +11 You gain a +4 bonus on disarm checks. This stacks with Improved Disarm. Special: This may be taken as a fighter bonus feat. Size Doesn't Matter - May also be from Lotus Crane's rebalanced stuff. Can't recall Prerequisites: Character level 10th, Combat Expertise, Power Attack When making opposed attack rolls or opposed strength checks for a special attack against an opponent (such as disarm, grapple, sunder, or trip), if the opponent is a larger size category than you, you treat him as if her were one size category smaller than he is. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack, as long as it does not cause a larger opponent to actually be treated as a size category smaller than yours. Improved Dodge Prerequisite: Dex 13, Wis 13, Dodge The bonus you gain from the dodge feat becomes +2. Additionally, uou gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against a number of foes equal to your Wisdom modifier. Sorry about forgetting that. Edit: Formatting changes. Added Improved Dodge, which I forgot to list. - 01/07/08 Edit: Altered Improved and Superior Weaponry slightly. - 01/25/08
vorpo 12-27-07, 01:53 PM	Adding you to the market under remake
ff6shadow 12-28-07, 02:08 PM	:monk: :bump: :monk:
LoneFlame 12-28-07, 04:26 PM	All Monk really needs is full base attack.
Talisman 12-28-07, 05:50 PM	Alignment: Any I think you meant "Any non-chaotic," based on the text under "Ex-Monks." Overall, I like this very much...the power increase is not phenomenal, but it is enough to make the monk a viable and interesting class. Excellent work on extra skill points, flurry-while-Springing, and ditching the stupid alignment and multiclass restrictions. I'd like to see wholeness of body changed into something like the warlock's fiendish resiliancy...X times per day you can enter a state where you gain fast healing X...it just feels more monkish than "Poof! Healing!" Why the halfway Will saves? If any save gets cut, it ought to be Fortitude, IMHO. Halfway Fort, good Ref, good Will. Also, why oh why do monks have such tremendous speed bonuses? A small bonus I can see (say, +20'), but why can a high-level monk outrun a thoroughbred? Wouldn't it be simpler to just give monks the ability to move at full speed while tumbling, climbing, or balancing?
ff6shadow 12-28-07, 09:28 PM	LoneFlame Full BAB doesn't really fix the monk. It just lets him do more damage if he stands still. Which defeats the purpose of his huge mobility. Talisman Yeah, forgot the non-chaotic. Added it in. I cut the WIll save for two reasons. First, most monks invest heavily in wisdom anyways. Second, it encourages people to continue to do so, instead of opting out and taking light armor since I opened that option up. As for the speed, it is still less of a bonus then the core monk already gets. A normal monk runs three times the speed of a normal person. This one runs ust over twice the normal speed. And ass for full speed tumbling and climibing, a high level monk can do that easily anyways, using the accelerated rules and taking a skill penalty.
Talisman 12-28-07, 09:57 PM	As for the speed, it is still less of a bonus then the core monk already gets. A normal monk runs three times the speed of a normal person. This one runs ust over twice the normal speed. And ass for full speed tumbling and climibing, a high level monk can do that easily anyways, using the accelerated rules and taking a skill penalty. Yes, but why do monks get such a crazy speed bonus in the first place? I've never seen any movies with Bruce Lee outrunning a cheetah :P This isn't a nit-pick of your class so much as monks in general. I've always wondered why the speed bonus, and never got a satisfactory answer. Accelerated tumbling, etc., doesn't help the low-level monk who lacks the skill ranks to try it, yet already has a +10' speed bonus.
LoneFlame 12-29-07, 12:09 AM	LoneFlame Full BAB doesn't really fix the monk. It just lets him do more damage if he stands still. Which defeats the purpose of his huge mobility. Well, the current Monk abilities(minus any you replace with variants, such as Dragon Fist or Decisive Strike) are actually pretty decent. The biggest problem that Monk has is that the mid-BAB makes it really hard to hit stuff. Full BAB fixes that. Skirmishing is more effect when you can actually hit you opponent(hell, fighting in general is). For more Skirmishing fun, combine the Sun School Tactical feat(Complete Warriror) with Abundant Step & Shadow Jaunt(possibly Shadow Stride as well). Teleport & instantly attack is always fun.
ff6shadow 12-29-07, 07:11 AM	Talisman You've got a good point on the speed. That my be interesting to dig more into. LoneFlame Yeah, Sun School is fun with Abundant Step and others. Too bad Abundant Step is usually once a day. Until this monk. And hitting is easy enough with your first attack even with 3/4 BAB. It is the secondary and tertiary attacks that will usually miss. And we all know that the fourth attack is almost always an auto-miss even if you have it. Since flurry provides up to to more primary attacks, monks hit alot more than one might think. But normally, it's only if they stand still.
LoneFlame 12-29-07, 12:53 PM	The problem with Monk's hitting lies not really in BAB, so much as the fact that the Unarmed Strike usually doesn't get any mystical pluses to hit, like the Fighter would because of gear. Since it's supposed to be a fighting class, it really should have the full BAB. In my experiences with Monk, i found that a little bit more of a to hit bonus would be more useful than teleporting great distances. In the case of using Abundant Step, I'd rather spend the feat to pick up Shadow Jaunt. It's only 50ft, but it's once an encounter, rather than once a day. Usually in a fight, you won't need the range of Abundant Step(especially with those speed bonuses), however, a crowd might keep you from utilizing your speed advantage, hence the Shadow Jaunt. Thus Abundant Step could easily be saved for when it's really needed.
ff6shadow 01-01-08, 07:37 AM	You've got a good point abut the short range teleporting being more useful. Shadow Jaunt and it's brethren are very useful, but dimension door has two bigs steps up on it, not even counting range. 1st is the option to bring allies. And 2nd is the ability to go through walls. As I recall Shadow Jaunt requires line of sight to the location. As for the gear, I usually just price the Amulet of Mighty fists right along side a normal magic weapon. Denying a monk a properly powered amulet is like telling the fighter he can't have a magical sword.
ff6shadow 01-07-08, 12:24 PM	Anybody esle have any comments?
JaronK 01-07-08, 10:01 PM	You know, the problem is that the Swordsage does the whole Monk thing so much better than a Monk that recreating a Monk is kinda like trying to make a better vacuum tube to replace the microchip. The monk fix is out, and it's the Swordsage. Any Monk remake that doesn't at least throw in manuevers just doesn't feel right. JaronK
Necromas 01-07-08, 10:36 PM	IMO, I think it'd be a good idea to give monks full BAB but only when using special monk weapons, so it's a bit of a trade off vs. unarmed attacks with higher base damage.
Talisman 01-07-08, 10:42 PM	The monk fix is out, and it's the Swordsage. Any Monk remake that doesn't at least throw in manuevers just doesn't feel right. ...Assuming you want to use ToB and learn a whole new "spellcasting" system. Lots of gamers don't. And I don't agree that you have to use maneuvers to make a viable non-caster melee class.
ff6shadow 01-18-08, 03:41 PM	Jaronk Talisman is right. Not every one is interested in learning how to deal with manuvers. And valid melee fighter should be possible without resorting to them. This is just part my effort towards that. Necromas That would be an interesting variant, but full BAB under some circumstances still doesn't make the monk competative against fighters, much less the barbarian or some spellcasters.
Legdiwena 01-18-08, 04:01 PM	Maybe have a class feature that unarmed strikes is considered a masterwork weapon and can be enchanted. Have a scaling max bonus as you level or just WBL guidelines.
ff6shadow 01-18-08, 04:25 PM	It's not really necessary. I simply charge the normal price for a magical weapon turned into an amulet of mighty fists. A +1 amulet and a +1 sword will both cost 2000gp. SO enchanting the fists themselves is pointless.
Legdiwena 01-18-08, 04:46 PM	But that way hurts the monk character who has to spend his neck slot for the weapon enchants while fighter just enchants weapon and can use the neck slot for something else.
DastardlyDan 01-19-08, 11:28 PM	In the groups I play with, we've always understood that the monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural attack and a manufactured weapon when it comes to magical benefits. Think of it this way, the Kensai prestige class out of the Complete Warrior allows you to use your ability to enchant your own weapon on your fists if you happen to be a monk. My 2 copper's worth.
Legdiwena 01-19-08, 11:43 PM	In the groups I play with, we've always understood that the monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural attack and a manufactured weapon when it comes to magical benefits. Well, this is precisely what RAW says.
ff6shadow 01-25-08, 09:46 AM	It is also seems perfectly reasonable to allow a pair of enchanted gloves. Or even to enchanted a vest to bestow magical properties on your unarmed strikes.
Captain_Kobold 01-25-08, 11:04 AM	But that way hurts the monk character who has to spend his neck slot for the weapon enchants while fighter just enchants weapon and can use the neck slot for something else. Actually, it also gives the monk an advantage over the fighter in terms of money spent. A fighter who dual-wields will have to pay for magical enchantment on two weapons. A Monk not only gets to flurry, which gives as many attacks as dual-wielding, but can also make off-hand attacks, all using the bonuses of an item with the cost of a single weapon. ff6shadow: Am I correct in thinking that your monk's ability to replace a special Monk's weapon damage with their unarmed damage would replace all of the weapon's damage? As in also eclipsing the magical components as well? Allowing full magical effects on a monk's unarmed strike could potentially be extremely open to abuse. I don't frequent the char-op boards, but others have mentioned Improved Unarmed strike, Superior unarmed strike, battlefists, and monks's belts. What is the justification for the increased weapon damage? Why would a matial artist who focuses on the contemplative, mystical and unarmed side learn to do more damage with a weapon than a martial artist who focuses on using weapons and actual combat?
ff6shadow 01-25-08, 11:34 AM	I view it at part of thier increased ability to wield those particular weapons more effectively thant a normal warrior would. Annd they essentially replace only the damage die. For example, replace the kama's 1d6 with whatever your monk unarmed damage is. You still gain the benefit of the magical properties of the weapon. However, I am going to edit those abilities to function off of base monk unarmed damage. No Battle Fist, Monk's Belt, or Superior Unarmed Strike help for them.
Ralvuimego 01-25-08, 02:39 PM	You know, the problem is that the Swordsage does the whole Monk thing so much better than a Monk that recreating a Monk is kinda like trying to make a better vacuum tube to replace the microchip. The monk fix is out, and it's the Swordsage. Any Monk remake that doesn't at least throw in manuevers just doesn't feel right. JaronK Personally, I love Tome of Battle. It revitalized the melee combat party role more than any other book WoTC put out. What I hate is the pricks that think that it's the only way to do things. Throwing opinions like this makes people not want to try ToB at all. I don't create ToB melee classes because I still think there is potential for fun melee types who don't just power attack for mad damage or trip/sunder/grapple for 20 levels. Yes, but why do monks get such a crazy speed bonus in the first place? I've never seen any movies with Bruce Lee outrunning a cheetah This isn't a nit-pick of your class so much as monks in general. I've always wondered why the speed bonus, and never got a satisfactory answer. Accelerated tumbling, etc., doesn't help the low-level monk who lacks the skill ranks to try it, yet already has a +10' speed bonus. Essentially, look at monks like this: Level 1-5 = Bruce Lee (You get your basic kung-fu stuff, and you're quick) Level 6-11 = Chi Master type (You suddenly gain immunity to diseases and poisons, and you can heal with a touch. You also start to become supernaturally fast.) Level 12-20: Goku (There's no other way to discribe it. You can suddenly teleport, you move at an unfathomably high speed, your fists can punch through everything but adamantium, and you can block powerful magic just by batting it away with your hand.) There's even a feat that lets you shoot energy blasts, wreath your hands in flame, and it's not that hard for a monk to get ahold of boots of flying.
Talisman 01-25-08, 03:33 PM	Level 12-20: Goku (There's no other way to discribe it. You can suddenly teleport, you move at an unfathomably high speed, your fists can punch through everything but adamantium, and you can block powerful magic just by batting it away with your hand.) There's even a feat that lets you shoot energy blasts, wreath your hands in flame, and it's not that hard for a monk to get ahold of boots of flying. :mymy: ...Suddenly, I like high-level monks a lot less :rolleye2:
ff6shadow 01-25-08, 04:01 PM	Eh, there has got to be another step between Chi Master and Goku. Goku is best simulated by a Warlock/Monk and is most definetly epic in the extreme. Although 12-20 might fit well with Kid Goku in Dragonball.
ff6shadow 02-05-08, 08:43 AM	So nobody has any opinions on allowing monks to make multiple attacks during a standard action or a spring attack? I figured something with those kind of implications would get noticed, but all most of it has been Tome of Battle, magical fists, and give it full BAB. Only Talisman really mentioned it.
Legdiwena 02-05-08, 10:01 AM	I think it might be acceptable during a limited quantity of special actions, not as a general standard action though. How many attacks you thinking of? Perhaps a small penalty to attack roll when you do so, not sure.
ff6shadow 02-05-08, 10:09 AM	Basically the same as the monk's current flurry. Which gives him 3 attacks at his highest attack bonus on a standard action attack or as part of a Spring Attack at 11th level an above.
Captain_Kobold 02-05-08, 10:42 AM	I view it at part of thier increased ability to wield those particular weapons more effectively thant a normal warrior would. Yes, but why does the mystical and unarmed focus of the monk give them that increased ability while the pure combat focus of a weapon-using martial artist does not?