a Difficult Decision [Archive] - Wizards Community

a Difficult Decision [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bobotheguy
12-08-07, 06:05 PM Hello there,

I am joining an Online D&D group, and playing a steal/rogue Tielfling Character. The ECL is 7, and my +1 lvl Adjustment gives me 6 class levels to choose from

My problem is this, I could go 5th lvl Rogue, 1st lvl Thief Acrobat (omplete Adventurer)

Giving me +3 BAB, +1 FORT, +6 REF, and +1 WILL as by base scores

I also get
Fast Acrobatics (tumble full speed, climb half speed and balance full speed w/out check penalty)
Kip up (prone to standing = free action, no AoO)
Steady Stance ( No Flat Foot while Balance or Climb)

My other option is to just go 6th lvl Rogue

Giving me +4 BAB, +2 FORT, +5 REF, and +2 WILL

So what I am saying is the Thief Acrobat abilities worth +1 BAB, FORT, REF, and WILL?

Bobo
Scion of Coldshard
12-08-07, 09:27 PM You could go Rogue 1/Spell thief 2/Swordsage 2 ;)

Pick up the skill trick for kip up if you really want it.

There is also a non-LA tiefling around somewhere..

But I suggest the above because it is a very interesting build with a ton of cool options. The second level of spell thief allows you to steal spell effects, admitedly without a great caster level, but it means if anyone you are up against uses a low caster level buff spell or a potion you can steal the effect which can be incredibly helpful.

This build is a bit MAD though. But then a rogue-ish character already is pretty MAD so no change there.

If you were small sized stonefoot stance would be great.. but since you arent island of blades helps get in sneak attacks easier, child of shadow gives you concealment, and step of the wind allows you to ignore terrain movement penalties.. all very good for sneaky types!
bahamut920
12-08-07, 09:44 PM This build is a bit MAD though. But then a rogue-ish character already is pretty MAD so no change there.

Really? I thought that rogues ended up being VAD (Variable Ability Dependent); you have the high-Str, mid-Dex "flanker," built for melee damage via flanking with the other melee characters; the high-Dex "scout," usually an archer type with Hide, Move Silently, Search, Open Lock, and Disable Device; the high-Int, mid-Dex "skillmonkey," whose job is to have every non-Knowledge skill; or the high-Cha, mid-Dex "face," with all of the interaction skills.

Besides, the OP isn't asking if you could build a 6th-level rogue for him, he wants to know if it's worth taking thief-acrobat or if he should just stick with rogue. Telling him to be a swordsage and to remove four levels of rogue doesn't help...
Maat_Mons
12-09-07, 12:30 AM Are you set on playing a Tiefling? They seem fairly underpowered for the level adjustment. The no-LA Tiefling is in Player’s Guide to Faerun (page 191), and is almost ridiculously good. If you really want a level adjustment, Lolth-Touched (Monster Manual IV page 92) is also quite good.

For more middle-of-the-road level adjustments, you might consider Catfolk (Races of the Wild page 92), Chaos Gnome (Races of Stone page 86), or Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone page 94). For more middle-of-the-road no-LA races, you might consider Snow Elf (Frostburn page 34), Kenku (Monster Manual III page 86), Wild Elf (Monster Manual I page 104), or the ever-popular human.

As for your actual question, nothing in Thief-Acrobat strikes me as being worth the loss of sneak attack. That doesn’t mean you need to stick with rogue; there are many roguish prestige classes available. That is not to say roguish prestige classes are the only alternative; as Scion of Coldshard mentioned, even one level of Swordsage can be good for any Rogue build due to the maneuvers that help you flank or render an opponent flat-footed.
Zog_Jakome
12-09-07, 04:39 PM no one here has really answered the question.

In my opinion the answer is yes it is worth it. I have a warblade who tumbles a lot and it sucks to move at half movement, especially when I can't get to the right position. now you can take a penalty (-10) to tumble at full speed, the tumble skill also allows you to stand up from prone by a DC 35 tumble check as a free action, but it still provokes an attack of opportunity.

the steady stance is not very useful, how often are you climbing or balancing?

at your level those skill checks are almost impossible to overcome. I suggest retraining later. you can retrain(if your DM allows it) that class into something else once you have enough levels to be able to make a DC 35 tumble check with relative ease.(note my warblade has a +21 to his tumble at 13th level)

I tried to stand up from prone once I rolled a natural 20 something you can't do at your level unless you have a really high dex or some skill focus feat. and don't forget synergy bonuses.
DrakaraGM
12-09-07, 11:35 PM There are skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel that you should convince your GM to allow -- lots of tumble-based skill tricks available, including some that let you stand up from prone much easier (and faster) than with a DC 35 tumble check... Skill tricks cost 2 skill points, require that you have a certain number of ranks in the appropriate skill, and can generally be used once per encounter.

As for the original question...no real opinion, but personally I like the flavor of the thief-acrobat. However I might in that situation go with rogue6 and THEN, assuming I survived, take the 1st level of the PrC... 6th level is just a fine level to reach in a class.
danielinthewolvesden
12-10-07, 12:22 AM Hello there,

I am joining an Online D&D group, and playing a steal/rogue Tielfling Character.

So what I am saying is the Thief Acrobat abilities worth +1 BAB, FORT, REF, and WILL?

Bobo

Yes, it is worth it. Or even better is Shadowdancer, IMHO.

By "steal/rogue" I hope you do not mean a rogue that steals from the rest of the party?:confused:

Tiefling depends on your build/buy. If you are getting only 25 pts, the +4 from Fiefling is nice. If you are getting a very generous 36 pts, then not so much. However, with some DMs, Darkvision is almost a "must-do" for any scout-type.
Tedronai
12-10-07, 12:44 AM In my opinion the answer is yes it is worth it. I have a warblade who tumbles a lot and it sucks to move at half movement, especially when I can't get to the right position. now you can take a penalty (-10) to tumble at full speed, the tumble skill also allows you to stand up from prone by a DC 35 tumble check as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

correction: a DC 35 tumble check allows you to stand up as a free action that DOES provoke an attack of opportunity.
Zog_Jakome
12-10-07, 07:03 AM correction: a DC 35 tumble check allows you to stand up as a free action that DOES provoke an attack of opportunity.

corrected which actually makes kip up that much more valuable. I would rule though that a DC 45 can stand up as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, seeing as how its only a DC 15 to move past an opponent without provoking attacks of opportunity and 25 to move through.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bobotheguy 12-08-07, 06:05 PM	Hello there, I am joining an Online D&D group, and playing a steal/rogue Tielfling Character. The ECL is 7, and my +1 lvl Adjustment gives me 6 class levels to choose from My problem is this, I could go 5th lvl Rogue, 1st lvl Thief Acrobat (omplete Adventurer) Giving me +3 BAB, +1 FORT, +6 REF, and +1 WILL as by base scores I also get Fast Acrobatics (tumble full speed, climb half speed and balance full speed w/out check penalty) Kip up (prone to standing = free action, no AoO) Steady Stance ( No Flat Foot while Balance or Climb) My other option is to just go 6th lvl Rogue Giving me +4 BAB, +2 FORT, +5 REF, and +2 WILL So what I am saying is the Thief Acrobat abilities worth +1 BAB, FORT, REF, and WILL? Bobo
Scion of Coldshard 12-08-07, 09:27 PM	You could go Rogue 1/Spell thief 2/Swordsage 2 ;) Pick up the skill trick for kip up if you really want it. There is also a non-LA tiefling around somewhere.. But I suggest the above because it is a very interesting build with a ton of cool options. The second level of spell thief allows you to steal spell effects, admitedly without a great caster level, but it means if anyone you are up against uses a low caster level buff spell or a potion you can steal the effect which can be incredibly helpful. This build is a bit MAD though. But then a rogue-ish character already is pretty MAD so no change there. If you were small sized stonefoot stance would be great.. but since you arent island of blades helps get in sneak attacks easier, child of shadow gives you concealment, and step of the wind allows you to ignore terrain movement penalties.. all very good for sneaky types!
bahamut920 12-08-07, 09:44 PM	This build is a bit MAD though. But then a rogue-ish character already is pretty MAD so no change there. Really? I thought that rogues ended up being VAD (Variable Ability Dependent); you have the high-Str, mid-Dex "flanker," built for melee damage via flanking with the other melee characters; the high-Dex "scout," usually an archer type with Hide, Move Silently, Search, Open Lock, and Disable Device; the high-Int, mid-Dex "skillmonkey," whose job is to have every non-Knowledge skill; or the high-Cha, mid-Dex "face," with all of the interaction skills. Besides, the OP isn't asking if you could build a 6th-level rogue for him, he wants to know if it's worth taking thief-acrobat or if he should just stick with rogue. Telling him to be a swordsage and to remove four levels of rogue doesn't help...
Maat_Mons 12-09-07, 12:30 AM	Are you set on playing a Tiefling? They seem fairly underpowered for the level adjustment. The no-LA Tiefling is in Player’s Guide to Faerun (page 191), and is almost ridiculously good. If you really want a level adjustment, Lolth-Touched (Monster Manual IV page 92) is also quite good. For more middle-of-the-road level adjustments, you might consider Catfolk (Races of the Wild page 92), Chaos Gnome (Races of Stone page 86), or Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone page 94). For more middle-of-the-road no-LA races, you might consider Snow Elf (Frostburn page 34), Kenku (Monster Manual III page 86), Wild Elf (Monster Manual I page 104), or the ever-popular human. As for your actual question, nothing in Thief-Acrobat strikes me as being worth the loss of sneak attack. That doesn’t mean you need to stick with rogue; there are many roguish prestige classes available. That is not to say roguish prestige classes are the only alternative; as Scion of Coldshard mentioned, even one level of Swordsage can be good for any Rogue build due to the maneuvers that help you flank or render an opponent flat-footed.
Zog_Jakome 12-09-07, 04:39 PM	no one here has really answered the question. In my opinion the answer is yes it is worth it. I have a warblade who tumbles a lot and it sucks to move at half movement, especially when I can't get to the right position. now you can take a penalty (-10) to tumble at full speed, the tumble skill also allows you to stand up from prone by a DC 35 tumble check as a free action, but it still provokes an attack of opportunity. the steady stance is not very useful, how often are you climbing or balancing? at your level those skill checks are almost impossible to overcome. I suggest retraining later. you can retrain(if your DM allows it) that class into something else once you have enough levels to be able to make a DC 35 tumble check with relative ease.(note my warblade has a +21 to his tumble at 13th level) I tried to stand up from prone once I rolled a natural 20 something you can't do at your level unless you have a really high dex or some skill focus feat. and don't forget synergy bonuses.
DrakaraGM 12-09-07, 11:35 PM	There are skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel that you should convince your GM to allow -- lots of tumble-based skill tricks available, including some that let you stand up from prone much easier (and faster) than with a DC 35 tumble check... Skill tricks cost 2 skill points, require that you have a certain number of ranks in the appropriate skill, and can generally be used once per encounter. As for the original question...no real opinion, but personally I like the flavor of the thief-acrobat. However I might in that situation go with rogue6 and THEN, assuming I survived, take the 1st level of the PrC... 6th level is just a fine level to reach in a class.
danielinthewolvesden 12-10-07, 12:22 AM	Hello there, I am joining an Online D&D group, and playing a steal/rogue Tielfling Character. So what I am saying is the Thief Acrobat abilities worth +1 BAB, FORT, REF, and WILL? Bobo Yes, it is worth it. Or even better is Shadowdancer, IMHO. By "steal/rogue" I hope you do not mean a rogue that steals from the rest of the party?:confused: Tiefling depends on your build/buy. If you are getting only 25 pts, the +4 from Fiefling is nice. If you are getting a very generous 36 pts, then not so much. However, with some DMs, Darkvision is almost a "must-do" for any scout-type.
Tedronai 12-10-07, 12:44 AM	In my opinion the answer is yes it is worth it. I have a warblade who tumbles a lot and it sucks to move at half movement, especially when I can't get to the right position. now you can take a penalty (-10) to tumble at full speed, the tumble skill also allows you to stand up from prone by a DC 35 tumble check as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. correction: a DC 35 tumble check allows you to stand up as a free action that DOES provoke an attack of opportunity.
Zog_Jakome 12-10-07, 07:03 AM	correction: a DC 35 tumble check allows you to stand up as a free action that DOES provoke an attack of opportunity. corrected which actually makes kip up that much more valuable. I would rule though that a DC 45 can stand up as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, seeing as how its only a DC 15 to move past an opponent without provoking attacks of opportunity and 25 to move through.