Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grave_Accomplice 06-23-07, 08:36 AM	I found this piece article on the next not long ago (thanks enworld), and it got me thinking about overall power levels. What do you think about it? ANALYZING ARAGORN So what have we learned so far? Almost everyone you have ever met is a 1st level character. The few exceptional people you've met are probably 2nd or 3rd level – they're canny and experienced and can accomplish things that others find difficult or impossible. If you know someone who's 4th level, then you're privileged to know one of the most talented people around: They're a professional sports player. Or a brain surgeon. Or a rocket scientist. If you know someone who's 5th level, then you have the honor of knowing someone that will probably be written about in history books. Walter Payton. Michael Jordan. Albert Einstein. Isaac Newton. Miyamoto Musashi. William Shakespeare. So when your D&D character hits 6th level, it means they're literally superhuman: They are capable of achieving things that no human being has ever been capable of achieving. They have transcended the mortal plane and become a mythic hero. This requires a shift of perception for some people, but I've found it valuable, when crafting my own campaigns, to keep it in mind: Even though the PCs inhabit a world where there are many higher level characters, once they've gotten past 5th level or so, they are truly special individuals. They will be noticed. Their accomplishments will be (and should be) things which would enshrine them in the legends of our world. It's OK for them to excel. To help put this in further perspective, let me pop another popular canard: People love to stat up their favorite heroes from fantasy literature as 20th level juggernauts. Fafhrd? 20th level. Elric? 20th level. Conan? 20th level. Aragorn? 20th level Luke Skywalker? 20th level. I mean, they must be 20th level, right? They're the biggest, bestest heroes ever! They're the greatest warriors in a generation! Some of them are reputedly the greatest swordsmen who ever lived in any universe EVAH! But when you stop and analyze what these characters are actually described as achieving, it's rare to find anything which actually requires a 20th level build. Take Aragorn, for example. He's clearly described as one of the best warriors in Middle Earth. But what do we actually see him do? Let's take THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RINGS as an example: He leads the hobbits through the wilderness with great skill. (The highest Survival DC in the core rules is DC 15. A 1st level character can master the skill for non-tracking purposes. Aragorn, as a master tracker, would need to be 5th level, have at least one level of ranger, and have spent one of his feats on Skill Focus (Survival) to achieve all of this.) He drives off the ringwraiths at Weathertop. (It's difficult to conclude anything from this because it's one of the more problematic passages in the book when subjected to analysis. If the ringwraiths are truly impervious to harm from any mortal man, why are they scared off by a guy waving two "flaming brands of wood"? Are they vulnerable to fire in a way that they're not vulnerable to mortal weapons? The point is, the true strength of the ringwraiths is obscure, so it's impossible to know how tough Aragorn would need to be in order to accomplish this.) Aragorn treats Frodo's wound, unsuccessfully. (The highest Heal DC is 15. As with Survival, Aragorn could have mastered this skill at 1st level. In Moria (fighting orcs): "Legolas shot two through the throat. Gimli hewed the legs from under another that had sprung up on Balin's tomb. Boromir and Aragorn slew many. When thirteen had fallen the rest fled shrieking, leaving the defenders unharmed, except for Sam who had a scratch along the scalp. A quick duck had saved him; and he had felled his orc: a sturdy thrust with his Barrow-blade. A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it. (Aragorn slays no more than six or seven CR 1/2 orcs in this encounter. A trivial accomplishment for a 5th level character.) Even if you follow Aragorn all the way through The Two Towers and The Return of the King, you'll find that this is fairly representative of what he accomplishes. The only other notable ping on the radar is his ability to use athelas, and even if we don't assume that's merely an example of him knowing athelas' properties (with a Knowledge (nature) check), it's still just one ability. So what can we conclude form this? Aragorn is about 5th level. And since Aragorn is one of the most remarkable individuals in all of Middle Earth, this would imply that Middle Earth is a place largely like our own world: People who achieve 5th level are uniquely gifted and come along but once in a generation. Does that seem like a proper description of Middle Earth? It does. Tolkien was crafting a false mythology – a forgotten epoch of our own world. Thus the people in it are much like the people we know, although they live in a world of heroes and magic. (For the record, I'd probably model Aragorn as a Rgr1/Ftr1/Pal3. That gives you the tracking, lay on hands, and quantifies his ineffable ability to instill courage in those around him. Use one of the feat selections for Skill Focus (Survival) and you're still left with another three feat selections for the final tweaking.) Why do people make the mistake of modeling characters like Aragorn as 20th level characters? I think it arises from several factors. First, there is the assumption that the fictional world of the novel is a typical D&D world. If someone is described as "the best in the world", therefore, they must be 20th level. Otherwise there would be people better than them and the description wouldn't be accurate, right? But the reality is that, in Middle Earth, there aren't any 20th level characters. (At least, none of mortal stature.) Even the most exceptional of the immortal elves are most likely no more than 8th level or so (and that's pushing it). Gandalf is a demigod cloaked in mortal form and I'd have difficulty statting him up as even a 10th level character. Second, people can be thrown off by some contortion required by D&D in order to get a very specific set of abilities. A character is described as having one very specific ability that only a 5th level druid can have and is simultaneously described as having another ability that only a 12th level ranger can have, so clearly they must be a 17th level character, right? Well, no. Authors don't design their characters around the class progressions of the core D&D classes. Take, for example, a character who can assume an ethereal state without casting a spell. The only way to do that in D&D, using only the core classes, is to be a 19th level monk. But if that's the only special ability the character in question has, it would be completely nonsensical to model them as a 19th level monk – they don't have any of the plethora of other abilities such a monk possesses. What you're looking at is a character with a unique class progression or possibly a prestige class. Or maybe a racial ability. Finally, you'll get into an arms race of expectations which just reinforces the whole thing: Aragorn must be 20th level. So the orcs who posed such a challenge to him must be 15th level or higher. And since those were elite 15th level orcs, Aragorn must have been 20th level in order to face them.
Salla 06-23-07, 08:50 AM	Well said. I once argued that the LotR cast were 4th level, tops, 'cause someone told me they ran from a troll. (And none of the hobbits except the old dude had any PC class levels.)
minneyar 06-23-07, 09:55 AM	I think it's a reasonable assessment. Rather than just ripping out text, though, let's provide a link to the actual page: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html The rest of the article is very well done, too.
Leo 06-23-07, 10:10 AM	Well said. I once argued that the LotR cast were 4th level, tops, 'cause someone told me they ran from a troll. (And none of the hobbits except the old dude had any PC class levels.) I would say the little hobbits get enough exp to take some levels in fighter/rogue along the adventure. If you go by the book it happens a lot of things before they even meet Aragorn. They fight a treant(being rescued by Tom Bombadill), some kind of ghost, Probably from that they become all commoner 1/rogue 1, starting to be more stealthy and developing some visible combat tactics, since they managed to hold off the orcs in Moria, From then I would say that Merry and Pippin got another level after being captured and escaping. They manage to persuade the treants to help them and they still show some fighting skill in the attack to Sauruman's tower and gondor defence. Sam got himself at least a level after fighting the giant spider, specially because after that he goes into the orc tower all by himself and kicks some asses, then helping Frodo all the way to the mountain and still driving back Gollum a few times. They end up around level 4, quite memorable.
TheCobra 06-23-07, 03:58 PM	Ah, yes. One of the oldest and stupidest claims on the internet. This should be fun. If you know someone who's 5th level, then you have the honor of knowing someone that will probably be written about in history books. Either that or you just happen to live in something larger a village. See the DMG. Just imagine how many epic characters live in a planar metropolis like New York City. So when your D&D character hits 6th level, it means they're literally superhuman: They are capable of achieving things that no human being has ever been capable of achieving. They have transcended the mortal plane and become a mythic hero. A 6th-level fighter is literally just as likely to be injured by an attack as a 1st-level commoner. Unlike an actual martial artist, he has gained no ability to defend himself. He's tough as nails and deadly on the attack, but he's not dodging much of anything. The only thing superhuman about him is perhaps his ability to withstand punishment. But if you shot him with a dozen arrows, even from a weak bow, he'd probably die. (Aragorn slays no more than six or seven CR 1/2 orcs in this encounter. A trivial accomplishment for a 5th level character.) Prove the orcs were 1/2 CR each. Even assuming they were, read what Boromir faced. Initially, he routed dozens of orcs without being injured. He was finally defeated by at least a hundred orcs, most of them archers. When a hundred archers are shooting at you, you're going to get hit five times on average per round, thanks to natural 20s. Note that Boromir didn't have any magical gear whatsoever. His only defense was a helm and perhaps a shield. Do you really see a 6th-level fighter lasting as long as he did? I certainly don't. Your average 6th-level fighter would have AC 13 with Boromir's gear. He'd die the first round against that many archers, even if they were only level-one warriors. Boromir, on the hand, lasted a good while, and killed at least twenty of those orcs before he fell. Even the most exceptional of the immortal elves are most likely no more than 8th level or so (and that's pushing it). Gandalf is a demigod cloaked in mortal form and I'd have difficulty statting him up as even a 10th level character. Read the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog, please. Their magical battle over the great door in Moria caused it to explode. The entire chamber collapsed as a result. After that, they both fell well over 200 feet into an underground lake. That's 20d6 damage each. Neither seemed hurt. They continued to fight, under the gelid water, for days. No rest for either of them. From that underground lake, they climbed up to the highest peak and fought for two more days. From a distance, the battle looked appeared to be a storm. The power of their spells reduced Durin's Tower to dust and blocked the Endless Stair with burnt and broken stone. Finally, the Balrog shattered mountain-side where he fell.
Leo 06-23-07, 04:28 PM	Well that's some kind of exageration. Most of the orcs were melee. Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn also fough them and they were not necessarly pinned with arrows. Boromir had a chainmail at least, so he's armor would be more around 16, assuming he had no dex. But it is clearly making a lot of attacks of oportunity so let's say he has combat reflexes and a dex around 14, togheter with good str, and int and wis as dump stats, wich comes as a suprise to no one. So we have an AC around 18, much better. Then it's safe to assume he also has diehard, since he just doesn't shut up. The books don't say how many he killed. Also he probably had cleave, so he wouldn't need many round Now, a bow deals around 1d6 damage. A fighter has a 1d10 HP per level. Plus con. And I doubt the orcs could afford mighty longbows. If your fighter lv 6 is dying from 12 shots from a shortbow, he's a wimp and deserves dying. They were in a forest. Full of trees. Even if there were 100 archers(wich there weren't) the trees are blocking half of their line of sight. And then, since Boromir was in melee, he could actually use the orcs he was meleeing as cover. So, a experient fighter 5-6 could actually do that.
TheCobra 06-23-07, 04:37 PM	Well that's some kind of exageration. Most of the orcs were melee. Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn also fough them and they were not necessarly pinned with arrows. Nope. What are you talking about? Boromir fought these 100+ orcs alone. Boromir had a chainmail at least No, he didn't. Of the fellowship, only Gimli and Frodo wrote armor. Now, a bow deals around 1d6 damage. A fighter has a 1d10 HP per level. Plus con. And I doubt the orcs could afford mighty longbows. If your fighter lv 6 is dying from 12 shots from a shortbow, he's a wimp and deserves dying. Your average 6th-level fighter has 50 hp. A dozen arrows from a longbow almost anyone can draw deal 54 points of damage. Even if there were 100 archers(wich there weren't) the trees are blocking half of their line of sight. The text says that there were at least hundred orcs and that they shot a rain of arrows. So, a experient fighter 5-6 could actually do that. Feel free to try it in my campaign.
Leo 06-23-07, 09:17 PM	Really? All by himself? So how did Legolas spent all his arrows?(it says so in the book. When Legolas reached Boromir he was out of arrows and had been forced to fight with his knives) And altough Boromir seems to be wearing only clothes, if you look carefully he's wearing chainshirt under them. Actually lots of warriors on the dark ages used clothes above their armours to show wich faction they belonged to(and fool enemies). Look at the space between the golves and the shirt. It's chainshirt there. It doesn't say he is, but it also doesn't say otherwise. But it would be really really really stupid for a great warrior as Boromir to go out there without at least light armour. It wasn't like he hadn't got the resources to buy it. And again, fight in a florest. You need a straight line of fire to hit someone with an arrow. Unless you consider trees are ethereal, there is no way in D&D 100 archers in a dense forest have clear line of range. Yes, they could have fired a volley, but more than half of them would be lost struck on trunkcs. Also, Pippin or Merry state that before being captured they saw Boromir hit by a single arrow from the first volley, not 20. Not bad from an 100 arrows volley. And when Aragorn arrived the text says several arrows(5-10), not an awfull lot(50-100). So or the orcs aren't really trying or they were indeed spread out around the mountain. The entire force that went after the feloowship was composed of 100 orcs. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas also fought them. They spread around the mountain in search of the Hobbits and since the fellowship was breaked Boromir found himself ganked by several oponens, but not the entire force. Note to self: in TheCobra campaigns arrows pierce wood whitout any kind of trouble.
Argaud 06-23-07, 10:47 PM	It is also a bad idea to shot arrows in melee without having Precise Shot. Most of those orcs were probably first level warriors with just one feat to burn, Precise Shot requires Point Blank Shot. So if we have a AC 18 (chain shirt, shield, Dx 14) fighter in meele an orc archer needs to roll 22 to hit him. A first level warrior with 12 Dex needs a 20. Only one in 20 arrows hits. If Boromir fights waves of 20-30 orcs alone then he gets hit by 1d8 arrow each round, and since he has 60 hp, they need 14 rounds to drop him. Meanwhile Bormomir, a 6th level fighter, hits them 2-3 times each round (he gets an AoO from the first idiot to try the bow in melee each round) and if he has cleave, this is the recipe for a massacre. He can easily kill 50 orcs in those 14 rounds. An heroic death.
Silverthumb128 06-23-07, 10:59 PM	And altough Boromir seems to be wearing only clothes, if you look carefully he's wearing chainshirt under them. OK, wait, we're discussing the movie Aragorn, then?
TheCobra 06-24-07, 01:41 AM	Really? All by himself? So how did Legolas spent all his arrows?(it says so in the book. When Legolas reached Boromir he was out of arrows and had been forced to fight with his knives) The rest of the fellowship certainly fought orcs at the same time, but they were elsewhere. They didn't help Boromir. That's why he died. It doesn't say he is, but it also doesn't say otherwise. But it would be really really really stupid for a great warrior as Boromir to go out there without at least light armour. It wasn't like he hadn't got the resources to buy it. They were traveling light. The text is clear on this point: "The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle." About Boromir, Tolkien writes, "Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Anduril but of less lineage, and he bore also a shield and his war-horn." Only Gimli and Frodo wore armor. Boromir must have had a helm as well, because they set it beside his body before they send him down the river. However, I'm not even sure he used shield in his final battle, because the text doesn't mention it and because he blew his horn during the fight. And when Aragorn arrived the text says several arrows(5-10) The word is "many," actually. The entire force that went after the feloowship was composed of 100 orcs. Where are you getting that from? It's obviously wrong, because Merry and Pippin were first attack by a band of orcs plus dozens of goblins. Then at least hundred attacked them and Boromir. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli also fought orcs, so there were well over a hundred in all. There's another problem when comparing D&D to other fictional universes. D&D rules are... strange, especially when you assume almost everyone is 1st level. 1st-level character can be killed by cats. Rather easily, in fact. Whatever you think about LotR orcs, you can't seriously argue that they're cat fodder. The combat ability of other animals also makes me question the assumption that everyone is first level. A warhorse or boar is quiet likely to survive a fight with a level-1 orc warrior. A mule would be a fairly even match for one. That's ridiculous.
Daeva 06-24-07, 06:58 AM	im gonna go off a limb here and say since one of the creators of D&D as we know it said so, its rihgt, shoot me down, i have no doubt your arrogant way of replying and refutting, and cursory knowledge of how you want things to be trumps it.
Grave_Accomplice 06-24-07, 08:14 AM	Either that or you just happen to live in something larger a village. See the DMG. Just imagine how many epic characters live in a planar metropolis like New York City. To be fair, the DMG doesn't scale its populations towards anything realistic. It's difficult to buy magic items or healing potions when everyone is first or second level. I seriously doubt anyone on this forum is over third, and it's population exceeds most towns in D&D.
Witch 06-24-07, 08:23 AM	To be fair, the DMG doesn't scale its populations towards anything realistic. It's difficult to buy magic items or healing potions when everyone is first or second level. I seriously doubt anyone on this forum is over third, and it's population exceeds most towns in D&D. One of the reasons is that most people here don't actually have to fight. They need to in D&D. Another reason is that there's less high CR creatures we can still level on, even if we fight.
Wolfvyn 06-24-07, 08:48 AM	One doesn't need to fight in order to gain lvls, it's just the quickest and easiest way. I would agree that it is unlikely that anyone on this board is over level three, however I doubt this board could be used as a decent model of a D&D community. I would say though that the average adult is at least second level and is probabbly level three if they have an established career and a family. As someone mentioed earlier D&D, or any other rule set for that matter, is a an odd and flawed way of representing people and how they fight. I Stand a decent chance of landing two hits on someone with in six seconds and I doubt very highly that I am lvl six or even that I have a full BAB progression. Anyway as for what the article has to say, I do agree that being a kick-ass hero doesn't require one to be level 20, but high level play is fairly common and since many people wish to play as, or something close to, thier favorite heroes from movies, myth and literature making them out to be 20th level characters just makes sense since Level 20 is generally the ultimate goal of character progression.
Grave_Accomplice 06-24-07, 08:52 AM	One of the reasons is that most people here don't actually have to fight. They need to in D&D. Another reason is that there's less high CR creatures we can still level on, even if we fight. No, they really don't, at least no more than any other village on this earth (this includes found in Africa, in the Amazon, and many other inhospitable locales). Villages and towns aren't under constant attack; if they were you couldn't play the 'please help this village defend itself from the sudden attack of (appropriate creature name here)'. You wouldn't be a hero suddenly arriving to save the day; you'd be just another soldier here to help with the long haul. There would be no farm for crops or shops and taverns for a good nights rest. No time to farm when the next orc invasion is just over the rise... There wouldn't be magic shops or churches with healing clerics either. The wizard/cleric/bard would be too busy buffing folk in the fight. Compare what you find in D&D with medival villages. Now compare them to villages, towns, etc in a constant state of war (or at least combat readyness). D&D settlements aren't anywhere close to constantly fighting, at least not monsters. Starvation maybe...
IRememberCecil 06-24-07, 09:06 AM	im gonna go off a limb here and say since one of the creators of D&D as we know it said so, its rihgt, shoot me down, i have no doubt your arrogant way of replying and refutting, and cursory knowledge of how you want things to be trumps it. First, you make a laughable statement (then one who created the game is always right, which is bullcrap). Then you go on to make a pre-emptive ad hominem (personal attack), just in case anyone tries to object to your opinion, obviously thinking you'll disprove them by calling them arrogant. So... do you have any reasoning capabilities, like, at all?
TheCobra 06-24-07, 11:23 AM	I seriously doubt anyone on this forum is over third, and it's population exceeds most towns in D&D. I'm not so sure. I don't know about you, but I don't live in constant fear of cats and dogs.
Grave_Accomplice 06-24-07, 12:39 PM	I'm not so sure. I don't know about you, but I don't live in constant fear of cats and dogs. Talk to animal control. They would prove you wrong... There is a reason we fear animal attacks.
Grave_Accomplice 06-24-07, 02:26 PM	So... do you have any reasoning capabilities, like, at all? I love a debate as much as everyone else, but let's lose the flaming. I don;t want to have to report a thread I started...
Daeva 06-24-07, 07:38 PM	do you honestly not notice the arrogance in his statements? im not making fun of anyone, im just poking at the obvious. and yes i will beleive the statments of the creators before some random guy who types acts like that. he takes the words form the book out of context, he leaves out ANYTHING that objects to what he says, just like that moore guy who wont stop making lopsided movies he even ends his entire statment with a challenge try it in my game ad youll die!!! not to mention anyone who off handedly dissmisses the intent of both the creator, and an essay written about the subject by siad person.... its arrogance.
TheCobra 06-24-07, 08:26 PM	Talk to animal control. They would prove you wrong... No such luck, bub. While rapid cats attack people from time to time, I've never heard of human dying from scratches. Being clawed up is extremely painful, yes, but it's not going to kill you. Dogs can kill humans, but it's rare. We're talking about only 20-30 deaths per year in the United States. Typically, the victims are either young or elderly. It takes a large or well-trained dog to kill a healthy adult. Daeva, if you want to debate, please give me something to work with. Answer my arguments. Vague personal attacks are amusing but don't lead anywhere. You haven't given me much substantial. not to mention anyone who off handedly dissmisses the intent of both the creator, and an essay written about the subject by siad person.... Anyone who insults LotR is my enemy. That said, I have been too hostile toward the initial article. It reminded of the ancient claim that Gandalf was only a 5th-level wizard. This is, of course, patently absurd, as anyone who has read the books knows. Asserting that Aragorn is only a 5th-level character is considerably more reasonable. I still strongly disagree with the notion, but I can almost see an intelligent person buying it. However, the author of the article only uses example that make D&D seem powerful. He ignores facts that suggest 1st-level character are simply not equal to us real humans. The house cat's combat ability is probably the evidence of this. The lifting table is also interesting. You've got to have STR 23 before you can beat Leonid Taranenko's clean and jerk record of 585 lbs. No 6th-level fighter is going to have superhuman strength.
Damon_Caskey 06-25-07, 12:08 AM	I just read that essay in full, and it is interesting, and I would be inclined to agree. The problem is that in all his examples, the character is completely one-dimensional. The Blacksmith might be able to craft masterwork items at 3'rd level, but he'll be lucky if he can tie his boots in the morning. Real humans are NOTHING like this. Micheal Jordan is not just a level 4-5 character with everything thrown into Basketball skills; he is a highly intelligent businessman and media innovator. I think the D&D system is the best around, but the fact is, its abstract by necessity setup means certain disconnects have to be made in your imagination. Micheal Jordan is a 10th level character? No, that's WAY too much, and yet, there is no way to provide for ALL his real world abilities at any lower level; you'd have to make him some kind of wacky gestalt, and that's just as silly as adding too many levels. The thing is, he is but one example. The average Joe walking down the street can do a lot more then his "class" allows him to, but again, that would take an inappropriate amount of levels to provide for the extra feats and skills needed, or a DM willing to let a lot of things slide. The same thing happens when you try to mash in certain other fiction works. It's square holes and round pegs. DC
Silverthumb128 06-25-07, 12:38 AM	I love a debate as much as everyone else, but let's lose the flaming. I don;t want to have to report a thread I started... Just report individual posts. As long as the thread remains steady as she goes, they offending posts themselves should be removed, but the rest left alone. Generally.
Grave_Accomplice 06-25-07, 10:45 AM	No such luck, bub. While rapid cats attack people from time to time, I've never heard of human dying from scratches. Being clawed up is extremely painful, yes, but it's not going to kill you. Look further. They may not have dies, but humans have had limbs incapacitated due to cats, especially those who stuck theoir hands out thinking the cat would be easy to deal with. Dogs can kill humans, but it's rare. We're talking about only 20-30 deaths per year in the United States. Typically, the victims are either young or elderly. It takes a large or well-trained dog to kill a healthy adult. Much like the dog stated in the MM, which does not cover breeds domesticated for smallish looks as opposed being work breeds. As fun as this may be, you're using a single extreme example to prove your point. It's the same as those using 'the wizard wields the giants dagger' to prove that the 3.0 weapons sizes was faulty. It doesn't wash when you consider the rest of the system. Anyone who insults LotR is my enemy. That said, I have been too hostile toward the initial article. It reminded of the ancient claim that Gandalf was only a 5th-level wizard. This is, of course, patently absurd, as anyone who has read the books knows. Given that both are abstract systems, it would be impossible to 'know' anything of that sort. How can an honest analsis be insulting? You use the balrog as an example of Gandlaf's higher level, yet won't accept that the orcs are low CR creatures. So I'll ask you: prove that the balrog is equivalent to what you find in the MM, that it isn't something that a 10th level mage couldn't handle. The lifting table is also interesting. You've got to have STR 23 before you can beat Leonid Taranenko's clean and jerk record of 585 lbs. No 6th-level fighter is going to have superhuman strength. Not so. You can lift up to twice your max load and stagger around (5ft per full round action). This fits the description of a cling and jerk just fine. That puts it at around Str 18 (maxing out at 600 lbs).
IRememberCecil 06-25-07, 11:13 AM	I love a debate as much as everyone else, but let's lose the flaming. Never! Okay, fine... :pbbbtt: do you honestly not notice the arrogance in his statements? You mean the fairness. You sort of invited me to try to refute your statement, and I did. and yes i will beleive the statments of the creators before some random guy who types acts like that. What if the creators (not that they always agree among each other) said that Aragorn was a Half-Dragon Sorcerer/Incantatrix? That's called an argumentum ad absurdum. I show you how your statement can be outrageous to prove that they are not logical. The creators' opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. he takes the words form the book out of context, he leaves out ANYTHING that objects to what he says, just like that moore guy who wont stop making lopsided movies I didn't do anything like that. I was refuting your viewpoint. not to mention anyone who off handedly dissmisses the intent of both the creator, and an essay written about the subject by siad person.... People tend to attribute their own intentions to those of the authors. Meaning that if you're trying to argue from the basis of intent, it's probably an argument from wishful thinking (basically, "I want it to be this way, therefore it is.") its arrogance. No, it's logical, intelligent, and it doesn't smack of author fanboyism. Also, other people are entitled to their opinions on an abstract concept like character implementation that are as valid as the one who established the common ground. You might as well say that the original creator of a law has the final say in how and who it should apply to (which is ridiculous).
TheCobra 06-25-07, 01:47 PM	Look further. They may not have dies, but humans have had limbs incapacitated due to cats, especially those who stuck theoir hands out thinking the cat would be easy to deal with. I can imagine that happening, though I suspect it's also rare. Even if true, it's still nothing like the D&D house cat's ability to kill commoners and even 1st-level warriors. Much like the dog stated in the MM, which does not cover breeds domesticated for smallish looks as opposed being work breeds. The MM dog is a animal that weighs 20 to 50 pounds. That's a small dog. The last account of a dog fatality I've read involved a 100+-pound dog that bit the victim over 70 times. We humans aren't nearly as helpless or fragile as some believe. Just recently, there was that grandfather who, after being attack by a leopard, killed it with his bare hands. On the other hand, dogs trained for war can be dangerous. The Spanish supposedly used them to great effect in the new world. The riding dog's stats are better for that, though. As fun as this may be, you're using a single extreme example to prove your point. Would like me to make a deeper criticism of D&D combat rules? I certainly could. A man with a halberd is just as easy to injure as a man with a dagger. It doesn't make much sense, as most anyone who's practiced martial arts will tell you. So I'll ask you: prove that the balrog is equivalent to what you find in the MM, that it isn't something that a 10th level mage couldn't handle. I already have. Read the description of their fight. A quick test of power between the two caused an entire chamber to collapse. That might be epic-level destruction, but it's at least high-level. After that, they fell a great distance together. The Balrog's flames burned Gandalf, but he survived. They hit the surface of a gelid underground lake. This must of hurt, but it didn't stop them. There, under the water, they fought for days. As Gandalf said, "We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels." No 10th-level wizard could fight underwater for days without rest. That's not going to happen. The battle shows that both combatants had considerable defense, as neither died. Finally, they climbed up to the highest peak and crowned it with storm for two days. Perhaps a 10th-level wizards could make a storm, but probably not one that could be seen at such distance. Certainly not one that could last so long. A 10th-level wizards wouldn't even last an hour. Not only that, but the Battle of the Peak completely destroyed Durin's Tower and choked the Endless Stair with rubble. And the Balrog broke the mountain-side when he fell. That's more destruction than I've ever seen 10th-level characters cause. You can lift up to twice your max load and stagger around (5ft per full round action). This fits the description of a cling and jerk just fine. That puts it at around Str 18 (maxing out at 600 lbs). That's more like a deadlift. To clean and jerk, you must lift the weight over your head. With STR 18, you can only lift 300 lbs over your head. That's pretty strong, but far from superhuman.
Grave_Accomplice 06-25-07, 02:13 PM	I can imagine that happening, though I suspect it's also rare. Even if true, it's still nothing like the D&D house cat's ability to kill commoners and even 1st-level warriors. Again, you're focusing on one flaw as a means of a validating your entire agruement. The MM dog is a animal that weighs 20 to 50 pounds. That's a small dog. The last account of a dog fatality I've read involved a 100+-pound dog that bit the victim over 70 times. Then look further. There are instances of small dogs, chickens, and other small animals puncturing or slashing the femorial artery. Death followed in seconds. We humans aren't nearly as helpless or fragile as some believe. Just recently, there was that grandfather who, after being attack by a leopard, killed it with his bare hands. This has nothing to do with the current debate. Would like me to make a deeper criticism of D&D combat rules? I certainly could. A man with a halberd is just as easy to injure as a man with a dagger. It doesn't make much sense, as most anyone who's practiced martial arts will tell you. I have practiced in martial arts. I've also spent time in military infantry. A hlberd user IS as easy to injure as a dagger wielder. They both make mistakes, leave openings, etc. A weapon will do just as much damage once it gets past their defense. I already have. Read the description of their fight. A quick test of power between the two caused an entire chamber to collapse. That might be epic-level destruction, but it's at least high-level. [/QUOTE A 10th l;evel mage can do enough damage to knock out a support. The rest falls. Massive damage is not needed. [QUOTE] No 10th-level wizard could fight underwater for days without rest. That's not going to happen. Nor can most epic mages. So far, you haven't given any concrete informatio besides fighting for days in a lake. A great distance does not automatically equate to 20d6 damage. Sp far, he's at best a 10th to 12th level mage with a specialized template. That's more like a deadlift. To clean and jerk, you must lift the weight over your head. With STR 18, you can only lift 300 lbs over your head. That's pretty strong, but far from superhuman. Thisfits the situation as it doesn't say the max load cannot go over your head. If we want to get technical, your example means he should still be able to keep up with a marine in full gear during a force march, and over hours no less. We can say he has a feat allowing him to lift his 'deadlift' weight over his head, realistically expressing his training in the sport.
Lord_Korivol_of_Brukdule 06-25-07, 02:37 PM	Quote: Anyone who insults LotR is my enemy. That said, I have been too hostile toward the initial article. It reminded of the ancient claim that Gandalf was only a 5th-level wizard. This is, of course, patently absurd, as anyone who has read the books knows. Given that both are abstract systems, it would be impossible to 'know' anything of that sort. How can an honest analsis be insulting? You use the balrog as an example of Gandlaf's higher level, yet won't accept that the orcs are low CR creatures. So I'll ask you: prove that the balrog is equivalent to what you find in the MM, that it isn't something that a 10th level mage couldn't handle. The Balrog and Gandalf are heralds of the gods. Not in any campaign are the heralds of the freaking gods 5th or 6th level. Not to mention that the average Uruk or Orc is described as much more powerful then the average human. Not 2 strength points stronger.... Oh, and that whole DESTROYING A MOUNTAIN AND FIGHTING FOR A WEEK is not even remotly possible from a 6th level. Oh, and not to mention, the level system is a bit objective. So Aragorns only level 5? Who was stronger? Who the heck got to level 10? Geez, Id be scared. Oh, and how about Isiludir? He seemed about the strength of Aragorn, right? And Isisludir beat Sauron, right? Granted that was by removing an artifact, an easy feat, perhaps, but look at this. What DM would introduce an artifact into a 5th/6th level campaign? And what kind of DM pits his 5th/6th level PCs against any foe strong enough to wield an artifact? Easily a CR 20, at least. And Sauron was a demigod.
TheCobra 06-25-07, 02:58 PM	Then look further. There are instances of small dogs, chickens, and other small animals puncturing or slashing the femorial artery. Death followed in seconds. Show this case. Such events mind-bogglingly rare. As I said, dogs only kill 20-30 people in the US per year. Very few of the victims are healthy adults. This has nothing to do with the current debate. It relates directly to your apparent belief that animals are really dangerous. I have practiced in martial arts. I've also spent time in military infantry. A hlberd user IS as easy to injure as a dagger wielder. They both make mistakes, leave openings, etc. Nope. The halberd has a huge advantage in reach. Before the dagger wielder can hope to strike, the halberd wielder gets a chance to kill hi. Really, going against someone with a single-handed sword with a dagger is hard enough. About the best you can hope for is a double kill. A 10th l;evel mage can do enough damage to knock out a support. The rest falls. Massive damage is not needed. The blast knocked out the entire wall. Then the entire room collapsed. So far, you haven't given any concrete informatio besides fighting for days in a lake. If you think that, you haven't been reading. A great distance does not automatically equate to 20d6 damage. Yes, it does. 200 feet passes in the blink of an eye. Sp far, he's at best a 10th to 12th level mage with a specialized template. He's not really much like a D&D wizard at all. If anything, warlock might be better. Thisfits the situation as it doesn't say the max load cannot go over your head. You can lift your max load over your head. That's it. We can say he has a feat allowing him to lift his 'deadlift' weight over his head, realistically expressing his training in the sport. No such feat exists.
Grave_Accomplice 06-25-07, 03:01 PM	Well, it was a good discussion for awhile. Is there any salvaging this, or should we end this.
AAB 06-25-07, 03:05 PM	okay. Gandalf first. he doesn't cast many spells in the books. he just doesn't. he'd rather use his sword or staff to do things. this implies to me that he is a low-medium level wizard with a massively powerful template for being basically a demigod. keeps his spells low and his personal power high.
TheCobra 06-25-07, 03:29 PM	Gandalf seems to have been using some sort of magic during the Battle of the Peak. Crowning the mountain with storms for a day or two isn't easy. Also, Gandalf threw a lot of flame against the Nazgul at Weathertop. Describing it, he said, "I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old." Finally, used fire magic against the Wargs. He set the whole hilltop aflame.
AAB 06-25-07, 03:57 PM	Gandalf seems to have been using some sort of magic during the Battle of the Peak. Crowning the mountain with storms for a day or two isn't easy. Also, Gandalf threw a lot of flame against the Nazgul at Weathertop. Describing it, he said, "I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old." Finally, used fire magic against the Wargs. He set the whole hilltop aflame. okay, the fire? so he can toss a few fireballs or cast burning hands. although control weather would force him to be 13+ level.
TheCobra 06-25-07, 04:37 PM	so he can toss a few fireballs or cast burning hands. Yeah, those spells do generally look like great war-beacons. :P
Jaith 06-25-07, 04:50 PM	let's just put it this way, dnd is a game. Lotr is a fantastic series of novels Trying to find the levels of the characters in a fantasy novel is like trying to pick pears out of an apple tree. On the surface it seems possible, but in reality it is not. In a fantasy novel, a character may beable to perform great deeds in combat like an epic level character. But he is also more easily grounded in reality than a dnd character. Yes, he may be able to slay a giant dragon single handedly, but he also could easily be killed by a cunning courtier by stabbing him in the back with a dagger while he walks to his bedchamber at night. Whereas, your 20th level fighter could indeed kill a gargantuan red wyrm by himself, there is no way a 5-6th level rogue could kill him with a single sneak attack in the hallway. Novels just do no translate into game mechanics, they just don't. And you shouldn't expect them to. If you want to run Aragorn in your dnd game, write up a ranger. Gandalf... well leave him to your dm :D