Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phantom Lord 10-25-05, 12:04 AM	Well, so far I have revised all of the core PHB classes except for the Bard. The reasoning behind this is that I have never happened to play a bard. Or DMed for one. Or even played in a group with a bard. The one time I saw a bard played, the player quit after two sessions. So I really have no idea, I'm stumbling around blindly here. At first glance, the bard seems kinda...weakish. I can see how they would be useful, but between the general lack of combat ability (utility falls into another category altogether) and the poor selection of spells and small number of spells known/per day, I can see why nobody would ever want to play one - they're too much of an NPC class as far as I can tell. So I am looking for some suggestions on how to change it up. I had a couple ideas of my own, but I need some more. Firstly, I don't like how the class seems a little front-loaded, with Countersong, Fascinate, Bardic knowledge, and Inspire courage, along with spellcasting, all at first level. Beyond that, it just sucks though. I was thinking perhaps move 0-level casting to level 2, 1-st level casting to level 4, 2nd-level casting to level 7, and so on. That would leave (remember, this is a balance-only change) 5th, 11th, and 17th levels the only ones without any sort of ability or spellcasting increase. I find that granting a new ability or new spells each level makes multiclassing less popular; the argument of "well, I would have to wait two more levels to get anything else out of that class" goes out the window. Second tenative change, and this one's only due to a lack of inspiration on my part: Bonus feats at levels 5, 11, and 17, and a special, powerful 20th-level ability (once again, to discourage multiclassing and PrCing. I need to increase their power overall, and I don't think I want to put it into their casting. I would rather have more (Ex) abilities than (Su) or (Sp) when it comes down to it, but I can't see a way to do that without stepping too much on the rogue's toes. Any ideas on balance or increasing the power of the bard? Am I just imagining that this class is underpowered?
Nephlite 10-25-05, 12:24 AM	At first glance, the bard seems kinda...weakish. I can see how they would be useful, but between the general lack of combat ability (utility falls into another category altogether) and the poor selection of spells and small number of spells known/per day, I can see why nobody would ever want to play one - they're too much of an NPC class as far as I can tell. Than one would think: poqering up a Bard might help. So I am looking for some suggestions on how to change it up. I had a couple ideas of my own, but I need some more. Firstly, I don't like how the class seems a little front-loaded, with Countersong, Fascinate, Bardic knowledge, and Inspire courage, along with spellcasting, all at first level. Beyond that, it just sucks though. I was thinking perhaps move 0-level casting to level 2, 1-st level casting to level 4, 2nd-level casting to level 7, and so on. That would leave (remember, this is a balance-only change) 5th, 11th, and 17th levels the only ones without any sort of ability or spellcasting increase. I find that granting a new ability or new spells each level makes multiclassing less popular; the argument of "well, I would have to wait two more levels to get anything else out of that class" goes out the window. See, when one thinks it looks weak: one thinks it should be powered up not down... guess one was confused. Moving first level casting to 4th weakens class not strengthens it. If Front loaded is still weak, you should front load more not less. I need to increase their power overall, and I don't think I want to put it into their casting. I would rather have more (Ex) abilities than (Su) or (Sp) when it comes down to it, but I can't see a way to do that without stepping too much on the rogue's toes. Any ideas on balance or increasing the power of the bard? Am I just imagining that this class is underpowered? Suggestions: (use whichever fit your idea of powering up Bard to your likes) 1) More Bard songs at low levels) so people want to play it) 2) Make Bard get spell casting of 0 level 1 spells at level 1 (keep rest of spell casting the same). 3) Give Bards back meduim armor(had it in 3.0) and allow them to cast in Meduim and shields with out ASF. 4) Give Bards HD 8 5) Give Bard Full Bab (increases Bards martial skills) 6) Gives Bards All good saves (like a Monk) 7) Gives Bards Paladin Auras idea found in World of warcrtaft RPG book (just make them songs: a few fit really well) 8) Add Cleric spell list to Bards. 9) Bards know all their spells like Clerics and Druids do. 10) Bards can use Quicken even though sponantous caster 11) Bards Get bonus feat every 5 levels (must be a general feat). What do ytou think of when you hear Bard? That determines what abilities it gains.
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 12:26 AM	Any ideas on balance or increasing the power of the bard? Am I just imagining that this class is underpowered? Don't bother. The bard is the purest support class. On his own, he's weak unless he has a bunch of items to UMD. His strength is making all his party members rock. Putting a bard in the party makes everyone else way stronger. I would rather have a bard to back me and the rest of the party up than a cleric, seven days a week.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-05, 12:29 AM	On his own, he's weak unless he has a bunch of items to UMD. :evillaugh
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 12:46 AM	:evillaugh When I say 'weak', note that I mean by CO standards. Which means 'okay, in fact good in a number of specific situations' by everyone else's standards. If it was weak by everyone's standards I'd be ridiculing it like I did the Metamind in that other thread.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-25-05, 02:01 AM	At first glance, the bard seems kinda...weakish. This is a common train of thought that I cannot disagree with more. Let's compare the Bard to the Rogue (the closest two classes). At first level, the Rogue gets trapfinding, and sneak attack with 8 skill points per level. The Bard gets Bardic Music (Countersong, fascinate, and Inspire Courage 1/day), a few 0 level spells, a few more weapon proficiencies, Bardic Knowledge, 2 good saves, and 6 skill points per level. Trapfinding and Bardic Knowledge are about equal at this level cosidering both DCS are set around 20 for anything useful. Sneak attack is better than the extra weapon proficiencies, although the spells and Bardic Music can help a party more than sneak attack. Lastly, to counter the lower skill points, the bard gets another good save. Seems very balanced when you compare the two. I can see how they would be useful, but between the general lack of combat ability (utility falls into another category altogether) and the poor selection of spells and small number of spells known/per day, I can see why nobody would ever want to play one - they're too much of an NPC class as far as I can tell. Wow. I cannot believe you wrote that. There are many Bard threads that go into depth how powerful the Bard can be in combat. I will summerize. BAB means nothing when you have a class that has Use Magic Device. A scroll of Divine Favor or Tenser's Transformation can make a Bard as BAB effective as any fighter type. Medium BAB is not weak or incapable when you are playing a Bard since most of your abilities are based around increasing the to hit bonus of a group. Example: At first level, Inspire Courage adds +1 to hit and damage, this makes the entire party able to hit as a first level fighter's BAB. When you take into account the Wizard and Cleric are more likely to use touch attacks, this balances their lower strength (although clerics usually have good str because of armor). Your Bard and Rogue can take Weapon Finese to to use a Dex in melee, or they can just focus on a ranged weapon. Also, since Inspire Courage is a group effect, you must add the damage total to determine it's effectiveness. In this case, Inspire Courage would potentially add +5 damage points per round if the party had 5 members in it. Compared to Cause Light Wounds (1d8 +1 adverages +5 damage), sneak attack (+1d6 adverages 3 damages per attack), and Shocking Grasp (1d8+1), Inspire Courage sems to be in line with the other abilities of the other classes. At higher levels, the Bard gets effects it can stack upon each other. Many of them have long durations. Examples, Alter Self and Heroism. Alter Self can allow you to become a Trogalyte which has +6 Natural Armor which lasts for 10 min per level. Heroism adds +2 to hit, saves, and skill checks for 10 min per level. Heroism is far superior the spells Cat's Grace/Bull's Strength since the individual with Heroism gets the bonus to hit from either melee or ranged, longer duration, and effects all saves and skill checks. The Bard also has the option to take Cure Spells. This versatility becomes more appearant when you need a class role filled and you don't have it available. Example: The Fighter and Rogue are flanking an opponent with the cleric healing. The wizard and the bard are in the back of the room and are surprised by a new opponent. The Wizard gets hit once in the surprise round and again in the round thereafter. The Bard could heal the Wizard. When genericly defining each class, the fighter is fighting, the rogue is skills, the wizard is arcane spells, and the cleric is healing. The Bard can fight (especially using his spells and bardic music effects to increase is ability to be in combat), has above adverage skill points (also Int is more necessary for a Bard, while Dex is more important for a Rogue), the bard cast aracne spells (which can be enhanced with Use Magic Device), and the bard can cast cure spells. Although the bard is not the best in any of these catagories, he is using all the catagories, unlike the other classes. In the last encounter I was in, I moved ahead to sneak into a camp. I blundered it and ended up facing the opposing group alone. I was able to cast Improved Blink and healing spells until the party arrived to support me (3 or 4 rounds later). Then I cast Whirling Blade with my use of Arcane Strike to hit 3 opponents for about 35 points of damage each. Although I cannot say I did more damage with my spell compared to the Wizard casting Chain Lightning, I can say I did the second most amount of damage. Not bad for a 'weak combat class'. So I am looking for some suggestions on how to change it up. I had a couple ideas of my own, but I need some more. Firstly, I don't like how the class seems a little front-loaded, with Countersong, Fascinate, Bardic knowledge, and Inspire courage, along with spellcasting, all at first level. Countersong is a very utility effect. It is so weak, it is included at first level as a freebee. Fascinate cannot be used in combat, so it is also very weak. Bardic Knowledge is efefctively equal to many first level special abilities. Lastly, the 2 0 level spells and the one use per day of Inspire Courage is very balanced. If Countersong effected all spells, I would agree with you. Otherwise, it is a lot of minor abilities at first level. Just because there are a lot of them, don't confuse them as frontloaded. The ability to sneak attack, rage, and gain weapon/armor proficiencies (for example) are more frontloaded than the Bard's list of special abilities. Beyond that, it just sucks though. I was thinking perhaps move 0-level casting to level 2, 1-st level casting to level 4, 2nd-level casting to level 7, and so on. That would leave (remember, this is a balance-only change) 5th, 11th, and 17th levels the only ones without any sort of ability or spellcasting increase. Since the Bard gets so few spells cast per day, you are effectively weakening the class. If the Bard's spells were more offensive or he had more of them, I would agree with you. Otherwise, I cannot see why moving the spells up a level would do anything but weaken the class. I find that granting a new ability or new spells each level makes multiclassing less popular; the argument of "well, I would have to wait two more levels to get anything else out of that class" goes out the window. I can agree with that to a point. The main point being, how does that apply to a Bard? The only ability youare really getting frontloaded is Bardic Knowledge. This is no different than Trapfinding, or Rage, or Sneak Attack (etc). Every class should get something at first level. The other abilities the Bard receives are balanced. The other Bardic Music effects would only be used once per day (use per day based on the Bard class levels), as would the 0 level spells. Unless you believe that the first level spell from being a first level wizard is overly frontloaded, I cannot understand how the 0 level spells from the limited bard list poses any kind of imbalance. The only real front load from the Bardic Music is that you can take Rogue levels afterwards putting ranks into Perform making Countersong as effective for the Rogue as the Bard. Big deal. The same cannot truly be said with Fascinate. A first level Bard (or one level of Bard multiclassed) would be able to use this ability once per day for one round. A higher level Bard gets to use it multiple times per day, for one round per bardic class level and use the Suggestion ability. Fascinate is hardly a frontloaded ability. Compared to the favored enemy bonus, +2 on damage and specific skill checks to the favored enemy versus a one use per day ability for one round to one target when not in combat should make the point obvious. Second tenative change, and this one's only due to a lack of inspiration on my part: Bonus feats at levels 5, 11, and 17, and a special, powerful 20th-level ability (once again, to discourage multiclassing and PrCing. As far as I can tell, bonus feats are the only thing that everyone seem to agree that the Bard should get. The Rogue gets them (special ability or a bonus feat), but the bard does not. Seems odd, so I wouldn;t be opposed to the Bard gaining the Rogue list of special abilities they could gain, but I would want half as many (I believe the Rogue gets 4, so the Bard should get 2). A Bard with Splippery Mind doesn't seem to far fetched in my mind, as an example. I need to increase their power overall, and I don't think I want to put it into their casting. I would rather have more (Ex) abilities than (Su) or (Sp) when it comes down to it, but I can't see a way to do that without stepping too much on the rogue's toes. Overall, it really isn't needed. As a Bard, I could have all 3 Inspire effects going. +4 to AC and Saves, +2 to Hit, +1 Fort save, +2d10 HD in temp HP, and up to a +4 to hit and damage that stacks with the previous +2 for a total of +6 to hit +4 damage, +4 to saves (+5 fort), +4 AC and +2d10 HD in temp hp. Also, many of these effects can be placed on multiple people. Other than 2 bonus features from the Rogue list, I cannot imagine adding any more than that without making the Bard too powerful. Any ideas on balance or increasing the power of the bard? Am I just imagining that this class is underpowered? I will give you an example of some of my bard's abilites so you can consider how 'underpowered' you think the class is. I have the feats Craft Arms and Armor and Arcane Strike. With Craft Arms and Armor, I can make the enhancement bonuses just like a Wizard/Cleric. I make Bane Arrows for the Archer (as well as a few Bane weapons for the party). When I am in melee, I can use Arcane Strike (from Complete Warrior). Sacrifice a spell to gain a +1 to hit and +1d4 damage per spell level sacrificed for the next round. So when I sacrifice a 4th level spell (for example) while under the effects of haste, I would get 4 attacks with each attack gaining +4 to hit and +4d4 damage. If all 4 attacks hit, that would be an additional 16d4 damage. I do not believe an additional 40 points of damage (on adverage) has made my character 'combat weak'. When stacked with Good Hope (+2 to hit and damage) and haste, my character is getting a +3 bonus to hit + the bonus of the spell sacrifced. This means more of my attacks will hit (adveraging 3.5 attacks hit per round from my experience). I hope this helps you reconsider the overall balance of the class.
Vaelan 10-25-05, 03:12 AM	I think you're just imagining it, Phantom Lord. Bards make fairly decent tactical fighters at lower levels with a little bit of planning. At later levels, Bards can stack up some significant bonuses to any party member. The only problem is that entirely too many of their bonuses are morale bonuses. No Rogue will want to go without Greater Heroism, Inspire Greatness, and Haste once they've had a Bard in the party. +4 to skill checks, +7 to hit, and a good number of temporary hitpoints helps a Rogue greatly. Bards also have a few ways to help Rogues get sneak attacks such as Greater Invisibility and Grease. If you allow Complete Adventurer, Tactical Precision gives flanking allies an additional +2 to hit and +1d6 damage, which a Rogue would also find quite helpful. Overall, a Bard can give someone +9 to hit, which is a huge advantage. Spellcasters benefit from the presence of a Bard because Bards do most of the buffing work, thus freeing up the caster's spell slots for more important spells. If you allow Complete Adventurer, the spellcasters in the party will greatly appreciate Harmonic Chorus when they need to throw out the save or die spells. Lastly, their skillpoints and class abilities make them extremely useful outside of combat. They have what amounts to Knowledge (Everything) through Bardic Knowledge and their Bardic Music effects, while of limited application, manage to neatly solve any problem they apply to. Their class skills are also quite impressive. Further, if you allow noncore material then Bards can specialize fairly well through the use of Prestige Classes and feats.
CaoSlayer 10-25-05, 05:17 AM	The 3.0 bard was balanced... the 3.5 it is scratching the brokeness... The error that most people commits when evaluating the bard it is dont tieing everything together. They see them as a "almost a rogue on raw stats" a "not on top spell caster" and a "decent buffer with songs" and the fail to see how a bard it is a pretty good arcane caster (the only one being able to cast healing items, spontaneous casting it is rated as being more powerful than prepared one and have a very dense spell-list, a bard can fill this spell knows with ones that would be one or two levels higher on a wizard) with good stats outside casting (two good saves vs one, light amor and shield vs nothing d6 vs d4, middle bab vs poor bab 2 skill points level vs 6 sp) and in the top some of the best buffing spells out here being usable lots of times. that it is the core bard. The bard with splat books it is pure CO material ¿do you wants to outdamage an frenzy berserker? get a paladin 4/bard 16 with words of creation, (power attack + leap attack or two weapon fighting + improved two weapon fighting), divine performer, divine might, arcane strike and song of the heart by example and watch how a bard with a non magical spear can or two daggers can deal with a round of preparation: +8 to hit and damage (inspire courage with WoC + song of the heart + that spell in complete adv. that grants a +1 to i.c.) +6 to hit +6d4 damage (arcane strike) (supouse that started with 16 charisma, +5 through levels +6 item + 5 tome=32 charisma = +11 charisma mod +11 to hit +20 damage (smite evil) +11 to hit and damage (divine might) so the guy have an total of +36 to hit and +39 +6d4 to damage ignorining stats and equipment, you could leap attack up to 20 for having a +16 to hit and +117 +6d4 to damage or can try to twfight for +50/+50/+45/+45/+40/+35; +51/+51/+51/+46/+46/+41/+36 if casts haste before. okey.. it is flawed, he only have 5 smite evils and must burn two arcane strikes or use a double weapon... still remember that it is just with one round of preparation and a non-magical weapon, with another round you can add to the bard a +5 competence bonus to hit (inspire courage) or become improved invisible for negating enemy dex AC and getting the bonuses of attacking as invisible or haste. Also if you wants more overkill, you can try the variant paladin of slaughter from UA and get an area of -4 to all enemies, althrought smite good isnt nearly as useful as smite evil. For the thw one, the bard can use before a easily checked wand of true strike for +36 to hit and +117 +6d4 damage. The core bard it is strong, the total bard it is broken.
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 10:39 AM	Good enough to be broken? No. The bard is more like the Cleric, but balanced.
monkmania 10-25-05, 12:21 PM	I mentioned this in another post... but i'll say it again here. A friend of mine and I were chatting about the bard, and we came to the conclusion that though as it is the bard may not hit as hard or in general affect the outcome of combat as directly as another class, it still can effect combat very powerfully... He does this through influencing all the events that occur up until combat begins. In such a way, a party with a bard can change the circumstances of a fight to their favor, avoid fights altogether, and fight only fights in which they want to fight. This is all outside the domain of the number cruncher, but puts the bard in a position of power when played by a good rp'er.
Shinara 10-25-05, 12:37 PM	As a precursor to the Bard, I happen to play a Bardic Warmage - (7 Bard, 1 Warmage). However, I've found that playing a Bard is extremely limiting. Apart from the occasional spell the party might want cast for the benefit of others, the majority of the time, all they want is the Inspire Courage ability. For that, one might as well have a cleric with the appropriate spells to enhance abilities. Someone pointed out that Countersong is a bit weak in nature. I disagree, but then again, it depends on your perform check, doesn't it? Mine is quite high by most standards, I suppose (minimum roll of 26 - 11 ranks in perform, 3 for skill focus, 4 for charisma, 4 because I always play luxury [this is an LG character, by the way] and 4 more due to my meta-org). The song I find to be almost totally useless is the Fascinate (and subsequent Suggestion). To make it better, the Bard should be able to use it as a precursor to combat (i.e., before combat starts). True, using it against monsters makes it pretty useless but against a party of humanoids, it can probably be quite devastating. It would allow your party to buff beforehand, should the need arise for a combat situation, or if the party chooses NOT to fight, they can quietly slip away without striking a blow. But the rules don't allow this. More often than not, using the Fascinate song provokes a combat, which isn't right, in my opinion. By his/her nature, a Bard is pretty much an innocuous PC. Most spells aid, rather than harm. The songs he/she sings don't, per se, cause any damage to the opposition, so why not change the rules to allow the usage of Fascinate as a prelude to a possible combat situation? As an example, this past weekend I played in a tournament. In one of the modules, we went through the entire dungeon without drawing a weapon. On the way out, we encountered a party that wanted us to return an item that we had taken. Being a bard, I figured that the best way out of this situation, considering who they were and what they were capable of doing to us, the best course of action would be to Fascinate them before a combat situation arose. The GM disagreed, indicating that attempting to Fascinate provoked by virtue of attempting to control the actions of another. While I can see that as a possiblity, I think I should have been given the opportunity to use it and if they FAILED their save, then make a ruling. Fortunately, no one died and no crimes were committed (I'm a Ket resident and if anyone knows what I'm talking about, then they would understand the reference to crime). In conclusion, I would have to agree with most of the others here... the Bard is more of an arcane cleric than anything else. Not a great fighter, limited spells and songs that could be enhanced, increased, or restrictions lifted. Shinara, Bardic Warmage of Ket and Puppeteer
CaoSlayer 10-25-05, 12:54 PM	ummm, bard´s ofensive spells arent damaging but are efective as hell. A bard ofensive spellcasting can be note as a debuff casting, they do things that makes enemies less efective... A bard can: stun, daze, blind, deaf,slow, prone, make laugh and dance, calm emotions,disarm, cause fear... A failed save in any of those spells can means than the enemy will become easier to kill. My favorite combat spell it is without a doubt confuse, making the BBEG fodder to turn against him it is priceless.
Shadowfax7 10-25-05, 12:58 PM	Any ideas on balance or increasing the power of the bard? Am I just imagining that this class is underpowered? I am of the opinion that Bards should get bonus feats, as has been mentioned. However, I do believe the 3.5 bard is well balanced against the other classes as is. IMC I grant Bards a bonus feat (any general feat) @ 4th level and 1 add'l bonus feat every 3 levels (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). Now I removed their spell-casting to keep them balanced and added certain other abilities, but this isn't the discussion at hand. The point is that if you believe the core Bard is underpowered, then bonus feats are the way to go.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-05, 04:19 PM	When I say 'weak', note that I mean by CO standards. Which means 'okay, in fact good in a number of specific situations' by everyone else's standards. If it was weak by everyone's standards I'd be ridiculing it like I did the Metamind in that other thread. I've said it before and I'll say it again; the Bard in DnD is the jedi. If I am not ambushed, combat will always happen on my terms. Thanks to high social skills and bardic knowledge, I will know more about my foes than they probably know themselves. If combat happens on my terms, I can incapacitate or seriously limit my opponents before they act. Hold, hideous laughter, charm, sleep, hypnotise, daze, blindness/deafness -- all of these change the terrain of the fight. Images, blur, displacement, invisibility, mirror image, sculpt sound -- all make the enemy think what I want them to think about the fight. To play a bard is to play the mental game of combat instead of the physical. You engage in psychological warfare against all enemies you encounter. That is the reason most people think the bard is weak. They don't know how to work the mind tricks enough to succeed alone, instead buying into the 'ultimate support class' stigma.
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 05:22 PM	Oh don't get me wrong. Diplomacy, fascination, all those mind tricks, bardic knowledge - all incredibly useful. And all situational, with the exception of bardic knowledge. The bard is very good at hacking the odds. But that doesn't help him vs. traps, environmental hazards, undead, constructs, plants, a number of elementals and anything mind-blanked or extremely strong in the Will save. And bardic knowledge, while wonderful, doesn't tell you absolutely everything - you'll want the help of a cleric's divination capabilities plus preferably some psionics, and maybe a tracker/Survival type. A high-level wizard can completely and totally set combat to terms where it is impossible to beat him. A high-level bard cannot, but can make combat a huge deal more favorable if he plays his cards right. Not surprisingly, a high-level bard is more balanced than a high level wizard. :thinks: :lightbulb
HamHam 10-25-05, 05:42 PM	Oh don't get me wrong. Diplomacy, fascination, all those mind tricks, bardic knowledge - all incredibly useful. And all situational, with the exception of bardic knowledge. The bard is very good at hacking the odds. But that doesn't help him vs. traps, environmental hazards, undead, constructs, plants, a number of elementals and anything mind-blanked or extremely strong in the Will save. And bardic knowledge, while wonderful, doesn't tell you absolutely everything - you'll want the help of a cleric's divination capabilities plus preferably some psionics, and maybe a tracker/Survival type. A high-level wizard can completely and totally set combat to terms where it is impossible to beat him. A high-level bard cannot, but can make combat a huge deal more favorable if he plays his cards right. Not surprisingly, a high-level bard is more balanced than a high level wizard. :thinks: :lightbulb Actually, I would say high level Bards are pretty damn powerful because of Diplomacy, Bluff, and such. This is because they really don't have to do anything themselves. They can go to a king, and in a few minutes talk him into deploying his army to clear out whatever dungeon is around and give the Bard all the good loot. Heck, he can talk his way into being king if he wants. Or convince a dragon to give him his treasure hoard because he's really better off without it anyway. Then he goes and convinces some god that the bard's many heroic deeds (none of which he actually did himself) make him deserving of divine rank. And that just before breakfast. During lunch he'll talk a Balor into turning over to the good side and donating his nice little Vorpal Sword to the Bard.
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 07:10 PM	Actually, I would say high level Bards are pretty damn powerful because of Diplomacy, Bluff, and such. This is because they really don't have to do anything themselves. They can go to a king, and in a few minutes talk him into deploying his army to clear out whatever dungeon is around and give the Bard all the good loot. Heck, he can talk his way into being king if he wants. Or convince a dragon to give him his treasure hoard because he's really better off without it anyway. Then he goes and convinces some god that the bard's many heroic deeds (none of which he actually did himself) make him deserving of divine rank. And that just before breakfast. During lunch he'll talk a Balor into turning over to the good side and donating his nice little Vorpal Sword to the Bard. Only if he uses Races of Destiny. And that still doesn't leave him any better off against undeads or constructs or vermin. And nothing a Wizard or Psion couldn't do anyways through spells or powers.
Nephlite 10-25-05, 09:06 PM	Only if he uses Races of Destiny. And that still doesn't leave him any better off against undeads or constructs or vermin. And nothing a Wizard or Psion couldn't do anyways through spells or powers. He could have a Wizard/Psion suggested to take out enemies adding to his power. Also suggest the guy not accept Exp or gold lol :D
Phantom Lord 10-25-05, 09:14 PM	Uh, thanks guys. Just to clarify(since it seemed to cause some confusion,) my suggestion to push back spellcasting to level 2 wasn't meant to weaken the class at all, just push back the ability to cast spells. First level, I thought, was frontloaded too much, so I thought it would work to grant the same spellcasting power over 19-level period instead of a 20-level period. As far as other changes, I believe I will add a small amount of rogue feats in there, but leave the rest unchanged. Thanks again.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-05, 11:11 PM	Just to clarify(since it seemed to cause some confusion,) my suggestion to push back spellcasting to level 2 wasn't meant to weaken the class at all, just push back the ability to cast spells. First level, I thought, was frontloaded too much, so I thought it would work to grant the same spellcasting power over 19-level period instead of a 20-level period. See... it doesn't just weaken the class, it cripples it. If you don't like the front loading, move countersong or something.
Willie the Duck 10-26-05, 12:10 AM	It is hard to say that bards are specifically underbalanced, balanced, or overbalanced. What I will say is that it takes a pretty darn good player to play a bard well. Warrior types and clerics are fairly easy to use to their full potential. Wizards and rogues are hard in that you really have to manage their fragility, and make decisions about the best use of their actions for a round, but are still somewhat forgiving. Playing a bard well requires player skill at every point, from initial to leveling up to each round of conflict. They are kind of like the enchantment and illusion spells they are so good with: an inexperienced player can only make illusions of non-existant bridges (or pretend to summon monsters, which draws away an attack or two), or cast save-or incapacitate spells like sleep or dominate. An experienced player makes elaborate battlefield control illusions, and knows what to do with charm person and suggestion. Likewise, a good player can use the myriad abilities of a bard to great effect.
FlameLover 10-26-05, 12:13 AM	I'd change it to the following: 1 - 0-level spells 2 - Bardic Music (Minor) 3 - Empty 4 - 1-level spells 5 - Bardic Music (Minor) 6 - Bonus Feat / Ability 7 - 2-level spells 8 - Bardic Music (Moderate) 9 - Empty 10 - 3-level spells 11 - Bardic Music (Moderate) 12 - Bonus Feat / Ability 13 - 4-level spells 14 - Bardic Music (Moderate) 15 - Empty 16 - 5-level spells 17 - Bardic Music (Major) 18 - Bonus Feat / Ability 19 - 6-level spells 20 - Bardic Music (Major) I'd then make a list of Minor, Moderate and Major songs you could choose from which you'd pick at the correct level (like a Warlock abit i guess). The number of uses would remain the same but you'd have alot more options. You would get to pick a bonus feat at levels 6, 12, and 18 too which'd have a seperate list and include some Rogue and social feats/special abilities. Levels labelled Empty (3, 9, 15) wouldn't get you anything - you don't need some EVERY level (especially when you get a next lefvel of spells the level after!) Anyway Bardic Knowledge would be gained at 1st level, etc. EDIT: This leaves the class too weak at early levels i realized so i'd add an ability or two at level 1 and/or 2. Bardic Knowledge is one but it needs something more... maybe give a bonus feat at 2nd level aswell?
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-26-05, 01:22 AM	As is, the class is fine. The only thing I can think of to add is some feats to give you different music and a martial weapon choice. I want a scythe, damn it!
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 01:47 AM	I mentioned this in another post... but i'll say it again here. A friend of mine and I were chatting about the bard, and we came to the conclusion that though as it is the bard may not hit as hard or in general affect the outcome of combat as directly as another class, it still can effect combat very powerfully... Actually, they can quite well, given the proper feats. He does this through influencing all the events that occur up until combat begins. In such a way, a party with a bard can change the circumstances of a fight to their favor, avoid fights altogether, and fight only fights in which they want to fight. This is all outside the domain of the number cruncher, but puts the bard in a position of power when played by a good rp'er. Which is why the Bard is quite powerful. They can create choices that don't exist with other classes.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 02:01 AM	As a precursor to the Bard, I happen to play a Bardic Warmage - (7 Bard, 1 Warmage). However, I've found that playing a Bard is extremely limiting. Apart from the occasional spell the party might want cast for the benefit of others, the majority of the time, all they want is the Inspire Courage ability. For that, one might as well have a cleric with the appropriate spells to enhance abilities. This is a surprising. Although I have no idea why you multiclassed (a pure bard is a better choice), by 8th level I am able to cast Haste and Good Hope. Good Hope is better than Inspire Courage at this level since the duration is 1 min/level (which has the potential to be used over multiple encounters, especially in a dungeon environment). Also, what type of build did you create? I personally choose high Int/Cha. I perform many Cha based skills, while still contributing to melee. With a +1 bonus from Str, the +2 bonus from Good Hope and the +1 bonus from Haste puts me on par with a Fighter based class. As a ranged combatant, you should have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot by this level. With Good Hope and Haste, you can be very effective. I undrstand the first round of combat, you will be either casting a spell on using a bardic song, but what do you do after the first round? If all you are doing is maintaining the song, you are wasting your abilities. Someone pointed out that Countersong is a bit weak in nature. I disagree, but then again, it depends on your perform check, doesn't it? Mine is quite high by most standards, I suppose (minimum roll of 26 - 11 ranks in perform, 3 for skill focus, 4 for charisma, 4 because I always play luxury [this is an LG character, by the way] and 4 more due to my meta-org). I beleive I was the one to say it is a weak ability. It is VERY situation dependant. In my entire career, I have used it once. It saved the party (Wail of the Banshee), since 3 of us would have died. It is just so limited in when it can be used. The song I find to be almost totally useless is the Fascinate (and subsequent Suggestion). To make it better, the Bard should be able to use it as a precursor to combat (i.e., before combat starts). True, using it against monsters makes it pretty useless but against a party of humanoids, it can probably be quite devastating. It would allow your party to buff beforehand, should the need arise for a combat situation, or if the party chooses NOT to fight, they can quietly slip away without striking a blow. But the rules don't allow this. More often than not, using the Fascinate song provokes a combat, which isn't right, in my opinion. Begin a rushed Diplomacy check to change from Hostile. Then interact with the humoidoids asking if you could perform for them. By his/her nature, a Bard is pretty much an innocuous PC. Most spells aid, rather than harm. The songs he/she sings don't, per se, cause any damage to the opposition, so why not change the rules to allow the usage of Fascinate as a prelude to a possible combat situation? As an example, this past weekend I played in a tournament. In one of the modules, we went through the entire dungeon without drawing a weapon. On the way out, we encountered a party that wanted us to return an item that we had taken. Being a bard, I figured that the best way out of this situation, considering who they were and what they were capable of doing to us, the best course of action would be to Fascinate them before a combat situation arose. The GM disagreed, indicating that attempting to Fascinate provoked by virtue of attempting to control the actions of another. While I can see that as a possiblity, I think I should have been given the opportunity to use it and if they FAILED their save, then make a ruling. Fortunately, no one died and no crimes were committed (I'm a Ket resident and if anyone knows what I'm talking about, then they would understand the reference to crime). As mentioned before, if you get their consent with Diplomacy, you avoid the problem you just mentioned. In conclusion, I would have to agree with most of the others here... the Bard is more of an arcane cleric than anything else. Not a great fighter, limited spells and songs that could be enhanced, increased, or restrictions lifted. Shinara, Bardic Warmage of Ket and Puppeteer I can't disagree with you more.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 02:08 AM	Oh don't get me wrong. Diplomacy, fascination, all those mind tricks, bardic knowledge - all incredibly useful. And all situational, with the exception of bardic knowledge. The bard is very good at hacking the odds. But that doesn't help him vs. traps, environmental hazards, undead, constructs, plants, a number of elementals and anything mind-blanked or extremely strong in the Will save. Ok, let's see there. Summon Monster 1. Summon Monster 1 can be used as a trap detector. It is also the requisite spell for Bane weapons. Bane arrows should do quite well against undead, constructs, plants and elementals. Undead are also vulnerable to Cure spells (which are on the bardic spell list), and intellegent undead are as easily influenced by Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate as any other intellegent creature. And bardic knowledge, while wonderful, doesn't tell you absolutely everything - you'll want the help of a cleric's divination capabilities plus preferably some psionics, and maybe a tracker/Survival type. A high-level wizard can completely and totally set combat to terms where it is impossible to beat him. A high-level bard cannot, but can make combat a huge deal more favorable if he plays his cards right. Not surprisingly, a high-level bard is more balanced than a high level wizard. :thinks: :lightbulb I think you are losing sight of what a Bard can do. A bard can convince an opponent they are switching sides, and that they must attack at a certain place at a certain time. When your group ambushes them, instead of the other way around, you will see that 'completely and totally set combat to terms where it is impossible to beat him' is well in his ability.
CaoSlayer 10-26-05, 04:20 AM	Oh don't get me wrong. Diplomacy, fascination, all those mind tricks, bardic knowledge - all incredibly useful. And all situational, with the exception of bardic knowledge. The bard is very good at hacking the odds. But that doesn't help him vs. traps, environmental hazards, undead, constructs, plants, a number of elementals and anything mind-blanked or extremely strong in the Will save. With the exception of traps, a rogue it is screwed equally... and still, from the start, you can remove the undead from the list, the cure X wounds spells are great when fighting those nasty undead with tons of AC and damage resistance, I have fight sometimes against undead using a cure light wounds wand as a mace. about the others, the bard is not useless at all, when you cant play as a debuffer since bards get music for free they can always buff their allies and nothing in this game it is inmune to a barbarian with a +4 to hit and damage, also can be a good moment to use that wand of fireballs you found and nobody else could/wanted to use. The power of the bard it is that they are such a flexible class that ever if you focus, they keep being versatile because they have too many features.
RadicalTaoist 10-26-05, 08:35 AM	Ok, let's see there. Summon Monster 1. Summon Monster 1 can be used as a trap detector. It is also the requisite spell for Bane weapons. Bane arrows should do quite well against undead, constructs, plants and elementals. Undead are also vulnerable to Cure spells (which are on the bardic spell list), and intellegent undead are as easily influenced by Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate as any other intellegent creature. Bane arrows, while nice, do not give you the kind of advantage in combat against constructs, vermin, and plants you want. You can surpass those bonuses with your spells and music. The cleric remains better. (Though bards are great archers - sing and shoot). Cure spells do not provide a 'strength' against undead. At seventh level, you will be doing 3d8+7 damage to an undead by touch once a round, once maybe twice a day. That's sad. That's less than a Fireball or Scorching Ray that a Wizard will be using far more often. Intelligent undead need to be outside of combat before you can Diplomatize them. They are immune to a bard's ways of getting them out of combat (mind-affecting). I think you are losing sight of what a Bard can do. A bard can convince an opponent they are switching sides, and that they must attack at a certain place at a certain time. When your group ambushes them, instead of the other way around, you will see that 'completely and totally set combat to terms where it is impossible to beat him' is well in his ability. Yes, Diplomacy is mighty. Before the combat. If a Bard gets the drop on a foe, he can convince him of a lot of things. So can any other class with Diplomacy. If a Rogue gets the jump, he has the choice of convincing the foe to do a lot of things. Or he can surgically remove the foe's jugular and hand it to him. If a Wizard gets the jump, he can convince reality to hurt the foe in many painful ways. Animals, vermin, some aberrations, some elementals, some undead, some magical beasts, and most constructs will not be negotiable. The fact that the Bard can take care of combat, and the next combat afterwards, with the advantage of surprise is a sign that the class is not hopelessly underpowered. If it couldn't do that, it would suck. Bards are only overpowered with regards to social situations like Rangers are overpowered with regards to wilderness situations. Final Verdict: Good...BIJNTU.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 08:41 AM	With the exception of traps, a rogue it is screwed equally... and still, from the start, you can remove the undead from the list, the cure X wounds spells are great when fighting those nasty undead with tons of AC and damage resistance, I have fight sometimes against undead using a cure light wounds wand as a mace. about the others, the bard is not useless at all, when you cant play as a debuffer since bards get music for free they can always buff their allies and nothing in this game it is inmune to a barbarian with a +4 to hit and damage, also can be a good moment to use that wand of fireballs you found and nobody else could/wanted to use. The power of the bard it is that they are such a flexible class that ever if you focus, they keep being versatile because they have too many features. By the way, in case anyone who reads the any Bard forum. Caoslayer is the epitome of Bardic knowledge. We seem to agree on most on the strengths (although I do not have the Book of Exalted Deeds nor any of the campaign books, so Caoslayer can draw on more resources than myself).
CaoSlayer 10-26-05, 09:15 AM	At seventh level, you will be doing 3d8+7 damage to an undead by touch once a round, once maybe twice a day. That's sad. That's less than a Fireball or Scorching Ray that a Wizard will be using far more often. You are totally right that nobody can outdamage a wizard using his spells at max power, althrought the 7d6 damage of a fireball have an average damage of 3.5*7=24,5 while 4,5*3+7 is 20,5, no bad for someone who isnt mean to deal heavy damage... My argument about bard vs undead was mainly that isnt as useless than a rogue who cant sneak attack or against an undead with good AC and DR like a vampire, the cure X wounds ignore both of them.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 09:16 AM	Bane arrows, while nice, do not give you the kind of advantage in combat against constructs, vermin, and plants you want. You can surpass those bonuses with your spells and music. The cleric remains better. (Though bards are great archers - sing and shoot). Personally, I handle undead and constructs with my Adamantine Morningstar +1 Bane Undead. When I use Arcane Strike, I deal full damage to either (with ethereal undead I use Improved Blink). So in the case of my Bard, when I can sacrifice a 6th level spell (I am now 17th level), dealing an extra 6d4 damage per hit in a round usually adverages about 100 points of damage (1d8 Morningstar, +1 enhancement, +2 strength, +3 belt of str +6, +2 Good Hope with an adverage of 3 hits dealing damage). This is before I have had a chance to enchant my Morningstar with Bane Constructs. Even a Wizard using an Orb spell (15th level) maximized will only deal 90 points of damage in a round. My damage was an adverage. This advantage works equally well with plants and elementals. How many other classes can you compare this too? How does the Fighter stand up, or the Cleric, or the Rogue? Can they perform as much damage equally among different catagories of creatures as I have shown I can? The Fighter can Power Attack but that reduces his chance to hit, while my method increases my chance to hit. Since no criticals apply, their will not be additional damage from one. How does the Cleric overcome the DR without an Adamantine weapon versus a construct, especially since Golems are mostly immune to the Cleric's offensive spells? I do realize that most classes are NOT meant to be superior to all foes, but while Clerics are strong versus Undead, and Rogues are strong versus beings that are mortal, the Bard can be substantial in any combat just by buffing their companions. if the Fighter and Rogue and Cleric are all in melee with Adamantine weapons versus a construct, the Bard can add additional damage to all their attacks. Cure spells do not provide a 'strength' against undead. At seventh level, you will be doing 3d8+7 damage to an undead by touch once a round, once maybe twice a day. That's sad. That's less than a Fireball or Scorching Ray that a Wizard will be using far more often. Intelligent undead need to be outside of combat before you can Diplomatize them. They are immune to a bard's ways of getting them out of combat (mind-affecting). First, that's very case dependant. Using Scorching Ray against the Undead may mean you won't have that spell later for a more appropriate creature. Ethereal Undead take half damage from Elemental effects so your 4d6 is now 2d6. Plus, you have a 50% chance of missing, while with Cure spells, you don't lose the spell if you miss. You can attempt again next round. 2d8 +7 save for half now looks better than half damage from fireball, save for an additional half. You can also perform a rushed Diplomacy check at -10 to the roll, even if combat is occuring. (Stop this fighting and talk with us.) Yes, Diplomacy is mighty. Before the combat. If a Bard gets the drop on a foe, he can convince him of a lot of things. So can any other class with Diplomacy. Ok, most would agree that only the Bard and Sorcerer focus on Cha as their primary stat, so comparing the Cleric or Paladin using Diplomacy versus the Bard is not the same thing. The Bard will have the edge in almost every case. With spells like Heroism, Greater Heroism, and Improvisation, the Bard can increase his advantage significantly. If a Rogue gets the jump, he has the choice of convincing the foe to do a lot of things. Or he can surgically remove the foe's jugular and hand it to him. If a Wizard gets the jump, he can convince reality to hurt the foe in many painful ways. So can the Bard as I have already demonstrated. Animals, vermin, some aberrations, some elementals, some undead, some magical beasts, and most constructs will not be negotiable. The fact that the Bard can take care of combat, and the next combat afterwards, with the advantage of surprise is a sign that the class is not hopelessly underpowered. If it couldn't do that, it would suck. Bards are only overpowered with regards to social situations like Rangers are overpowered with regards to wilderness situations. Final Verdict: Good...BIJNTU. Although their are many types of creatures that are not negotiable with, the Bard can handle himself quite well. If he supports his party, they will deal with the foes faster. If he gets involved, the foes will be ovecome faster. Which method is better, depends on the Bard. A Bard having advanatges in combat, should engage in combat. A bard focusing on a support role, should do nothing but support. The main strength of a Bard is versatility. Think of a swiss army knife. My Bard would just engage in melee and deal about 100 points of damage a round. That's my bard. Another Bard may use Improved Invisibility or Displacement to negate enemy attacks or Shout to deal damage to Swarms, or buff. The examples can go on and on. When comparing other classes, you don't get all those choices. A Barbarian or Paladin will have to engae in combat to overcome foes based upon thir strengths. A fighter or ranger are either melee or ranged combatants. With four classes, they MUST overcome a foe with combat. A wizard or sorcerer must use their magic to overcome a foe. (Yes, a sorcerer has bluff, but bluff is not a wish. It only lasts for a brief period. Besides, the Bard will bluff much better especially with Glibness or Improvisation.) A Rogue may have social skills, but their class promotes some of their skill to be focused on speciafic skills (a Rogue would be remiss for not taking Disable Device and Search since they have trapfinding, as an example. The same rogue would probably be as remiss for not taking Hide and Move Silent, maybe even Bluff. The Bard is only 'required' to take Perform, but would be remiss for not taking Cha based skills. Just like the Rogue would be remiss for not taking Dex based skills.) Having been in the 'undead and golem' situation with my party, I can say that myself and the fighter did the most amount of damage to them when it occurred. The Wizard didn't have any conjuration spells, the Rogue didn't have Adamantine or blunt weapons, and the cleric wasn't high enough level to turn most of the undead (every other encounter he turned one undead, which attacked in groups of 3). In short your arguement is based on supposition. You assume that is how it would occur. Having been in that position, I know my Bard was created to handle any combat.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 09:24 AM	You are totally right that nobody can outdamage a wizard using his spells at max power, althrought the 7d6 damage of a fireball have an average damage of 3.5*7=24,5 while 4,5*3+7 is 20,5, no bad for someone who isnt mean to deal heavy damage... My argument about bard vs undead was mainly that isnt as useless than a rogue who cant sneak attack or against an undead with good AC and DR like a vampire, the cure X wounds ignore both of them. As much as the Wizard should be the damage King using Arcane power, the Bard is quite capable of a second place. Last game session I used a Whirling Blade spell while burning a 6th level spell to Arcane Strike. I adverage 35 points of damage to 5 opponents. The Wizard used Chain Lightning for 14d6 plus 7d6 to the other 4 opponents. He did much more damage than myself since the opponents failed most of their saving throws. No other party member did a fraction of the damage that I did. (That includes our Fighter and ranged attacking Ranger.) Simply put, Bards can dish out a significant amount of damage if you design them for that purpose.
R-man 10-26-05, 09:40 AM	Having now played a Bard I can now say that I am very impressed by the class. The only real weakness's that I have noticed is the lack of feats are killing me. The feat selection of your Bard will determine where and what your strengths are as a Bard (Outside of standard Bard stuff). I really like the idea of giving additional bonus's throughout a class's career to discourage multiclassing and prestige classing. I have no problem with either but they shouldn't be a requirement to making a strong character. I am also wishing I had just a bit more spell casting per day then I presently do. Say the chart would eventually look like all 5's instead of the all 4's that it presently looks. Don't add to the spells known though as the added flexibility would be too powerful. Part of the problem that many players have with Bard's is in how they design them. With Wizards, Clerics, Fighters and Rogues it is easy on how and where you should put your stats. A Bard can follow any or all of the rules of class design. Want a powerful mindmage put your best stat into Cha and pick feats to back it up. Want a missle user DX and missle feats. Want a combat monkey. Con followed by St or Dx (and weapon finesse). The key is to pick a direction and go with it, frequently players see the Jack of all trades thing and assume that it means that they can design a Bard to do everything. Well you can with a Bard but you will not be very good at it! Mostly I am finding that the lack of feats is the really major problem for playing a Bard.
RadicalTaoist 10-26-05, 09:56 AM	Personally, I handle undead and constructs with my Adamantine Morningstar +1 Bane Undead. When I use Arcane Strike, I deal full damage to either (with ethereal undead I use Improved Blink). So in the case of my Bard, when I can sacrifice a 6th level spell (I am now 17th level), dealing an extra 6d4 damage per hit in a round usually adverages about 100 points of damage (1d8 Morningstar, +1 enhancement, +2 strength, +3 belt of str +6, +2 Good Hope with an adverage of 3 hits dealing damage). This is before I have had a chance to enchant my Morningstar with Bane Constructs. Even a Wizard using an Orb spell (15th level) maximized will only deal 90 points of damage in a round. My damage was an adverage. That's nice. Anyone can wield that weapon. It is stronger put in the hands of other characters, like a lot of bard abilities. You are pulling in non-core material such as Arcane Strike. This is fine, but also adds a lot more in terms of options to other characters. You are also using a demonstration at 17th level. What sad kind of wizard depends on DD at 17th level? He PaOs you or the party meleeist into something Huge with a 30 Str. That's tons of damage right there. He drops a Power Word Blind in round 2 and then the party can probably walk away from their lost opponents if they want. You want a maximized 4th level spell? Maximize Enervation and give an ally a nice advantage. If you are talking magic immune like a golem, polymorph into a rust monster or use the appropriate weakness spell. For crying out loud, Shapechange into a Solar and smack any construct with roughly 4 DC 23 Fort saves (which they suck at) or be destroyed in a round. Please. Sweet Jesu. Summon something, save or die. Why would you use a maximised orb at 17th level? This advantage works equally well with plants and elementals. Against whom there are other options. How many other classes can you compare this too? How does the Fighter stand up, or the Cleric, or the Rogue? Can they perform as much damage equally among different catagories of creatures as I have shown I can? The Fighter is not versatile at all outside of melee combat and archery, and is the most dependent class in the game. The Cleric smokes the Bard in every area except helping others, smokes them in that area too if you allow Complete Divine, and even then is so strong that a party of Clerics can do without a bard. The Rogue works differently altogether, though he doesn't have aspects of versatility the Bard has. The Fighter can Power Attack but that reduces his chance to hit, while my method increases my chance to hit. Since no criticals apply, their will not be additional damage from one. How does the Cleric overcome the DR without an Adamantine weapon versus a construct, especially since Golems are mostly immune to the Cleric's offensive spells? What's stopping them from getting an adamantine weapon? How is a golem immune to a Cleric's Summons, or his Holy Word? How is a golem immune to a Divine Power Righteous Might Spiked Divine Favored cleric bashing on it with an adamantine heavy mace for more damage in a full attack than the barbarian? I do realize that most classes are NOT meant to be superior to all foes, but while Clerics are strong versus Undead, and Rogues are strong versus beings that are mortal, the Bard can be substantial in any combat just by buffing their companions. if the Fighter and Rogue and Cleric are all in melee with Adamantine weapons versus a construct, the Bard can add additional damage to all their attacks. You're right on all but the Cleric, who is outright strong in every area. Yes the Bard is strong by buffing his companions. That is his greatest strength, although he is quite versatile too. First, that's very case dependant. Using Scorching Ray against the Undead may mean you won't have that spell later for a more appropriate creature. Ethereal Undead take half damage from Elemental effects so your 4d6 is now 2d6. Plus, you have a 50% chance of missing, while with Cure spells, you don't lose the spell if you miss. You can attempt again next round. 2d8 +7 save for half now looks better than half damage from fireball, save for an additional half. First, what are you talking about not having Scorching Ray later? Wizard has tons more Scorching Rays than bard has CSWs at any level. You're using the Completes. That means Complete Arcane's Transdimensional Spell if necessary. Hell, an Empowered Magic Missile does as much damage as your CSW and can never miss. You can also perform a rushed Diplomacy check at -10 to the roll, even if combat is occuring. (Stop this fighting and talk with us.) You have to catch their attention to do so. The only way is through the half-elf racial sub level in Races of Destiny, which allows a half-elf bard to Calm Emotions using his Diplomacy check as the save DC. Pretty much a guaranteed combat-ender if they're vulnerable to mind-affecting and share a language. Ok, most would agree that only the Bard and Sorcerer focus on Cha as their primary stat, so comparing the Cleric or Paladin using Diplomacy versus the Bard is not the same thing. The Bard will have the edge in almost every case. With spells like Heroism, Greater Heroism, and Improvisation, the Bard can increase his advantage significantly. That's nice. Paladins should have good Cha anyways. So can the Bard as I have already demonstrated. So can the bard do what? Convince reality like a wizard? Although their are many types of creatures that are not negotiable with, the Bard can handle himself quite well. If he supports his party, they will deal with the foes faster. If he gets involved, the foes will be ovecome faster. Which method is better, depends on the Bard. A Bard having advanatges in combat, should engage in combat. A bard focusing on a support role, should do nothing but support. The main strength of a Bard is versatility. Think of a swiss army knife. My Bard would just engage in melee and deal about 100 points of damage a round. That's my bard. Another Bard may use Improved Invisibility or Displacement to negate enemy attacks or Shout to deal damage to Swarms, or buff. The examples can go on and on. When comparing other classes, you don't get all those choices. A Barbarian or Paladin will have to engae in combat to overcome foes based upon thir strengths. A fighter or ranger are either melee or ranged combatants. With four classes, they MUST overcome a foe with combat. A wizard or sorcerer must use their magic to overcome a foe. (Yes, a sorcerer has bluff, but bluff is not a wish. It only lasts for a brief period. Besides, the Bard will bluff much better especially with Glibness or Improvisation.) A Rogue may have social skills, but their class promotes some of their skill to be focused on speciafic skills (a Rogue would be remiss for not taking Disable Device and Search since they have trapfinding, as an example. The same rogue would probably be as remiss for not taking Hide and Move Silent, maybe even Bluff. The Bard is only 'required' to take Perform, but would be remiss for not taking Cha based skills. Just like the Rogue would be remiss for not taking Dex based skills.) Having been in the 'undead and golem' situation with my party, I can say that myself and the fighter did the most amount of damage to them when it occurred. The Wizard didn't have any conjuration spells, the Rogue didn't have Adamantine or blunt weapons, and the cleric wasn't high enough level to turn most of the undead (every other encounter he turned one undead, which attacked in groups of 3). In short your arguement is based on supposition. You assume that is how it would occur. Having been in that position, I know my Bard was created to handle any combat. Your Cleric and Fighter sucked. Their full attacks should have been more in the range of 200 damage a round at the levels you speak of. Let me explain myself. The bard is a good, versatile class. It is not overpowered versatile like the cleric and druid, as in it can do anything without anyone's help. It is versatile kinda like the psychic warrior, as it can do a whole freaking lot with some backup. I repeat, good...BIJNTU.
CaoSlayer 10-26-05, 11:58 AM	Ummm, god things, althrought there is a pair of things... there is few things as wrong as polymorphing the main meleish... If you change him into anything bigger or smaller, all this equipment will blend with the form, so a fighter will be hurt by losing this hackmaster +5, this items of str and con +6, the cloak of resistance +5, ect. Also being easier to hit cause lack of full platemail +5 and size penalties. and there is not point to change it into something of this size since it will have standard str, dex and con that surely will be lower than the character ones. polymorph it is a great spell when used in creature that have nothing to lose like a monk a gapple specialist, the same wizard before casting tenser transformation or the druid´s animal companion. And in most cases, a wizard normally never will be able to cast more scorching rays than a bard can cast CSW just because the wizard would have to prepare all this slots as scorching rays while a bard only have to burn a slot freely, ever in extreme cases he could burn higher level spells for more uses in the fly. Also a wizard normally wouldnt prepare a gollem´s weakness spell unless he knows that he is going to fight one... a bard´s spellcasting it is without doubt less powerful than the wizard´s one, still the bard have the advantage of being a spontaneous caster which advantage it is fast versatility. About the spike chain cleric (and the outdated archer one). How many times can become a killing machine? how many feats have to burn for being so? the melee cleric weak point it is that only can do it once or twice per day and a single dispell magic or the urgent need to burn spells into healing throw him into a weak fighter or the walking healing wand that the party requests.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 12:54 PM	That's nice. Anyone can wield that weapon. It is stronger put in the hands of other characters, like a lot of bard abilities. You are pulling in non-core material such as Arcane Strike. This is fine, but also adds a lot more in terms of options to other characters. For example? You are also using a demonstration at 17th level. What sad kind of wizard depends on DD at 17th level? What is DD? He PaOs you or the party meleeist into something Huge with a 30 Str. That's tons of damage right there. He drops a Power Word Blind in round 2 and then the party can probably walk away from their lost opponents if they want. You want a maximized 4th level spell? Maximize Enervation and give an ally a nice advantage. If you are talking magic immune like a golem, polymorph into a rust monster or use the appropriate weakness spell. For crying out loud, Shapechange into a Solar and smack any construct with roughly 4 DC 23 Fort saves (which they suck at) or be destroyed in a round. Please. Sweet Jesu. Summon something, save or die. Why would you use a maximised orb at 17th level? I am 17th level, our wizard is 14th. Against whom there are other options. The Fighter is not versatile at all outside of melee combat and archery, and is the most dependent class in the game. The Cleric smokes the Bard in every area except helping others, smokes them in that area too if you allow Complete Divine, and even then is so strong that a party of Clerics can do without a bard. The Rogue works differently altogether, though he doesn't have aspects of versatility the Bard has. How so? You make statements without anything to back them up. I carry scrolls of Divine favor in case I need them. I can choose to be as efficient. Also, I have Haste on my class list while the Cleric does not. Comparitively, Haste versus Divine Favor, Haste is better. It effects the whole party. What's stopping them from getting an adamantine weapon? How is a golem immune to a Cleric's Summons, or his Holy Word? Well, summon spells are weak per caster level. A summon monster 9 is a CR 13. Why do you have to ask why is it weaker? Holy Word? Are you kidding? Golems would be immune to that spell. While any class could have an adamantine weapon, few would deal the amount of damage that Arcane Strike can. Leap Attack is the only example I can think of that compares. How is a golem immune to a Divine Power Righteous Might Spiked Divine Favored cleric bashing on it with an adamantine heavy mace for more damage in a full attack than the barbarian? Not sure on the Spiked Divine Favored part, but let's look at the spells mentioned. First, Divine Power and Righteous Might are 1/round per level spells. Good Hope is a 1/min per level spell. That means you are likely casting the Divine spells during combat rather than prior to it. That's a huge difference. Usually, I only cast one spell or use one song during the first round of combat. Haste is the most common. That was I can make a 5' step into combat and get a full round of attacks. So round one, cast Haste. Round 2, use Arcane Strike with full round of attacks. Seem sI have acomplished two things in my example. One, I am efficient. Two, I can be effective quickly. You're right on all but the Cleric, who is outright strong in every area. Yes the Bard is strong by buffing his companions. That is his greatest strength, although he is quite versatile too. I never questioned the strength of the cleric or bard, I am saying the bard is very strong when you focus on one area. Overall, their strength is versatility. First, what are you talking about not having Scorching Ray later? Wizard has tons more Scorching Rays than bard has CSWs at any level. You're using the Completes. That means Complete Arcane's Transdimensional Spell if necessary. Hell, an Empowered Magic Missile does as much damage as your CSW and can never miss. Ok, first. I have no ideea what CSW is. Second, Transdimentional spell requires two things. First, taking the feat. Second, enhancing a spell with the feat in advance. A maximized Magic Missle is not going to deal more damage than myself under the effect of Improved Blink. Round one, I cast Improved Blink. If opponent is close, I will full round attack (in which the AC of the opponent is probably very low, while my AC is 50% likely to be at full strength rather than a touch AC.) otherwise, I will cast Haste, use Combat Expertise, or sing a song to increase my combat ability. Magic Missle is unlikely to deal more than 25 points of damage a round. I deal more than that with one attack. You have to catch their attention to do so. The only way is through the half-elf racial sub level in Races of Destiny, which allows a half-elf bard to Calm Emotions using his Diplomacy check as the save DC. Pretty much a guaranteed combat-ender if they're vulnerable to mind-affecting and share a language. It isn't the only way. That's nice. Paladins should have good Cha anyways. Good, sure. Better than the Bard, not likely. So can the bard do what? Convince reality like a wizard? If he wants to use scrolls, easily so. If not, he can convince others he is capable of such things. Your Cleric and Fighter sucked. Their full attacks should have been more in the range of 200 damage a round at the levels you speak of. Let me explain myself. The bard is a good, versatile class. It is not overpowered versatile like the cleric and druid, as in it can do anything without anyone's help. It is versatile kinda like the psychic warrior, as it can do a whole freaking lot with some backup. I repeat, good...BIJNTU. Our fighter is a double sword wielding Fighter. He is quite capable of dishing out the same damage I am. In the combat I mentioned, he didn't. He through is sword (it is returning), and then charged the opponent (just the way combat occured that round). Every class is dependant on their stats and items. How do you figure our cleric should be dealing 200 points of damage a round. He is a cleric of Pelor with the Str and Healing Domains. Most of the party's combats last 3 rounds. We managed to kill a Balor in one round, once. All I am saying is my bard is on par with your examples of 200 points of damage a round more so than most bards are. As such, I know Bards are not weak by any means.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 01:10 PM	RadicalTaoist, I understand you disagree with me. That is fine. But please site example with your statements. Just saying the cleric is as powerful (or more) powerful than the bard means very little. A cleric is a powerful class. It has many strengths to it. None of which will mean anything if the cleric doesn't devote the specific feats and spells that you have failed to mention. If our party is capable of destroying a single opponent with less than 300 HP in one round, why would we have time to cast multiple spells in adavnce that do not have more than a 1 round/level duration. In the example of my last combat, I had gone up in advance to try and speak to the oppoents. They required a password in which I did not know. That lead to combat. The party arrived 3 rounds later. They used ranged attacks to get the opponents attention, to pull off the threats against me. I never made a full round attack against any opponent, but our ranger made two rounds of full round archery attacks at over 150' away. Overall, our group of 5 is quite capable. (fighter, cleric, ranger, wizard, bard) We lost our Rogue player about 7 levels earlier.
Nephlite 10-26-05, 01:28 PM	What is DD? Accepted abbreviation foir Damage dealing. By than Wizard/Sorc/Clerics/Druids/Psions/Wilders have Save or die spells that usually kill outright. I am 17th level, our wizard is 14th. How come your a higher level? Well, summon spells are weak per caster level. A summon monster 9 is a CR 13. Why do you have to ask why is it weaker? Holy Word? Are you kidding? Golems would be immune to that spell. While any class could have an adamantine weapon, few would deal the amount of damage that Arcane Strike can. Leap Attack is the only example I can think of that compares. Monster summons are weakish I guess, but Nature summons aren't. Druids have good summons just for information. Ok, first. I have no ideea what CSW is. Second, Transdimentional spell requires two things. First, taking the feat. Second, enhancing a spell with the feat in advance. A maximized Magic Missle is not going to deal more damage than myself under the effect of Improved Blink. Round one, I cast Improved Blink. If opponent is close, I will full round attack (in which the AC of the opponent is probably very low, while my AC is 50% likely to be at full strength rather than a touch AC.) otherwise, I will cast Haste, use Combat Expertise, or sing a song to increase my combat ability. Magic Missle is unlikely to deal more than 25 points of damage a round. I deal more than that with one attack. Again, abbreviations are used by posters. CSW: Cure Serious Wounds. Most of the party's combats last 3 rounds. We managed to kill a Balor in one round, once. Again, why are your characters like Wizard lower levels? did he die alot?
Kamikaze Chicken 10-26-05, 01:29 PM	In SOng and silence, the virtuoso class oppened up an option for any arcane caster to gain full use of basic bardic music with just one level of virtuoso and apropriate ranks in perform. Along with this the virtuoso has full spell casting progression. So take a sorcerer and get the required ranks in perform, then dip over into virtuoso. Your familiar looses some ailities, but you have full bardic music like a bard, and full spells like a sorcerer+ the virtuoso performance abilities. Good, BIJNTU as Radical will point out. For a rather twisted virtuoso you could also use warlock to qualify, but spells would probably be more useful than invocations for this build. Still the vision i have is of a performing reacting to thrown vegetables with some thrown eldritch goodness. Another interesting option is to combine the Bard with a class like duelist, or arcane duelist, or even lasher. You lose many of your class abilities outright, but you gain new abilities that boost combat control. if your party needs some extra combat damage this is one way to go. And ofcourse there is the War chanter PrC i do not recall all its abilities at the moment, but the two i do remember are chants which give your allies the ability to continue fighting while dying, and have full BaB to do so with. Just awesome having someone rooting you on to victory that way. Im not trying to de-rail the thread or anything, but I am just making the point that taking full 20 levels of bard is good, but for each individual party a multiclassing bard could answer the major problems or failings in said party. I have both played as a bard, and dealt with an npc bard cohort, and can say that when played correctly a bard is the perfect addition to any party. Whether mad einto a triping nightmare, or simply talking up the rest of the party to the locals for support, any party will benefit from having a bard around. besides the ability to use perform to gain silver or gold each day is nice when the rest of the party is busy making weapons or researching spells. Over all i like the way the bard fits into a campaign, but agree that the bonus feats could be added to round it out even more. Just my two cents, KAMIKAZE! :chicken:
CaoSlayer 10-26-05, 01:50 PM	In SOng and silence, the virtuoso class oppened up an option for any arcane caster to gain full use of basic bardic music with just one level of virtuoso and apropriate ranks in perform. Along with this the virtuoso has full spell casting progression. So take a sorcerer and get the required ranks in perform, then dip over into virtuoso. Your familiar looses some ailities, but you have full bardic music like a bard, and full spells like a sorcerer+ the virtuoso performance abilities. Good, BIJNTU as Radical will point out. For a rather twisted virtuoso you could also use warlock to qualify, but spells would probably be more useful than invocations for this build. Still the vision i have is of a performing reacting to thrown vegetables with some thrown eldritch goodness. Another interesting option is to combine the Bard with a class like duelist, or arcane duelist, or even lasher. You lose many of your class abilities outright, but you gain new abilities that boost combat control. if your party needs some extra combat damage this is one way to go. And ofcourse there is the War chanter PrC i do not recall all its abilities at the moment, but the two i do remember are chants which give your allies the ability to continue fighting while dying, and have full BaB to do so with. Just awesome having someone rooting you on to victory that way. Im not trying to de-rail the thread or anything, but I am just making the point that taking full 20 levels of bard is good, but for each individual party a multiclassing bard could answer the major problems or failings in said party. I have both played as a bard, and dealt with an npc bard cohort, and can say that when played correctly a bard is the perfect addition to any party. Whether mad einto a triping nightmare, or simply talking up the rest of the party to the locals for support, any party will benefit from having a bard around. besides the ability to use perform to gain silver or gold each day is nice when the rest of the party is busy making weapons or researching spells. Over all i like the way the bard fits into a campaign, but agree that the bonus feats could be added to round it out even more. Just my two cents, KAMIKAZE! :chicken: The trouble of multiclassing or getting into a prc it is that sometimes you are losing more than you are getting... The 3.0 virtuoso spellcasting was a loophole, it is now fixed on Complete Adventurer. The "get all the bardic music with just one level" also it is a 3.0 thing, and was flawed by the fact that you only could use those songs one time a day without burning a feat for 5 times a day. I dont saying that multiclassing it is a wrong thing, simply it is that you end being almost everything but a bard, also usually multiclassing into a meleer dont means more damage output, because those lost levels means that you will get the songs and the spells latter becoming less useful, the diference between being a bard 16/ insert melee guy here 4, beyond one bab point that means four attacks, it is than the bard will have a great spellcasting boost being able to have many more level 6 spells to burn into arcane strike (or casting of otto´s dance) and some new lower spell know. being able to do +6 to hit and +6d4 damage for three rounds it is usually more useful than the extra attack... of course there are exceptions or you can be imaginative and fill those good bab class with a prc that grants arcane spells at half rate, so you will get the extra attack and only will lose two caster levels. Finally about the warchanter, it is a wonderful class for bards with very low charisma, ever negative one since the bardic music isnt affected by low charisma, with just one or two levels of bard you can enter into the prc and be a singing warrior.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 02:09 PM	Accepted abbreviation foir Damage dealing. By than Wizard/Sorc/Clerics/Druids/Psions/Wilders have Save or die spells that usually kill outright. Most save or die spells are 50% likely to succeed or less for the same CR rating. As such, although it CAN win you an encounter in one round, we (as a group) prefer to just pile on the damage. This way, we are almost guanenteed the same result every time. As a adverage level party of 15, we killed a Balor in one round with surprise (we killed it in the surprise round). Prior ro this, we adverage 3 rounds of combat to kill any CR rating we faced (usually 2-3 levels above our adverage class level). How come your a higher level? Monster summons are weakish I guess, but Nature summons aren't. Druids have good summons just for information. Again, abbreviations are used by posters. CSW: Cure Serious Wounds. Again, why are your characters like Wizard lower levels? did he die alot? We have had players come and go during our camapign (quite a few as I look back on it). My character is the only original PC since the beginning (but the second original player). The DM has ruled that a new player must start at the lowest level of the party. As a side note, I am not the highest xp total in the party. I died, and the party went on a quest to bring me back. During that time, the fighter exceeded my xp total even though he was 2 levels lower than me when he first entered the party. (Item creation used some of my extra xp as well as some significant encounters in which I was not in the party against).
Arcanix 10-26-05, 02:50 PM	My personal take on the bard does fall more on the side that he is underrated rather than underpowered. I like the number of options a bard has; most of the rogue's skills, plus the knowledges, and a combination of healing and arcane utility spells rivalled only by cleric/wizard, cleric/sorcerer, etc. To go further though, compare the bard's ench/charm spell progression to a wizard's or sorcerers. Bards get a lot of these spells as a level or 2 lower than a wizard; if you compare theis with the spell progression charts or each class you'll find that bard often get access to a ench/charm spell at the same level or within 1 level of a wizard or sorcerer. The same thing applies with the various healing spells relative to the druid's access to healing spells. So basically the bard is equal in these 2 areas to so-called "primary casters". Ench/charm spells can be just as effective as save or die for defeating foes; not to mention the bard's expertise is social situations means he will be much more able to convince an opponent to do something against their nature without breaking spell effect when this is relevant. Throw in Modify Memory; which only bards can get, and you have all of the enchanting fun of any wizard, but with much less messy cleanup afterwards.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 03:15 PM	That's nice. Anyone can wield that weapon. It is stronger put in the hands of other characters, like a lot of bard abilities. You are pulling in non-core material such as Arcane Strike. This is fine, but also adds a lot more in terms of options to other characters. Now I know the shorthand, let me counter argue. Anyone can wield an adamantine weapon. Sure enough, but few will wield it as effectively as I. A Rogue cannot sneak attack a construct, so that eliminates them. A Cleric can use Divine Might, but that will just give him a fight BAB. That doesn't change the damage output. He could use Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Favor to do just that. Now, let's compare the math. Roughly +7 to hit and damge with 2 spells compared to +6 to hit and 6d4 damage with one spell. Or with Divine Might and Haste, it gives the edge to hit to the cleric, but the edge in damage to the bard. As stated before, most of the Bard spells add to a group. Few of the Cleric spells that add to a group are more significant than what a bard can do. You are also using a demonstration at 17th level. What sad kind of wizard depends on DD at 17th level? For dependable results, damage is the only relyable method. He PaOs you or the party meleeist into something Huge with a 30 Str. That's tons of damage right there. He drops a Power Word Blind in round 2 and then the party can probably walk away from their lost opponents if they want. We are already successful defeating an opponent in 3 rounds, why would he try using Polymorph other and Power Word Blind. First, there is a chance the party member will become non-sentiant (lose his identity to the creature type). Second, we do use Power Word Blind when it is applicable. (We recently used it on a Beholder.) You want a maximized 4th level spell? Maximize Enervation and give an ally a nice advantage. And how is that better than 90 points of damage? A CR 20 has between 250 to 500 HP. 90 points is about 20% of the total. That seems more significant than maximized Enervation, especially since the 250 HP is much more likely than 500 HP. If you are talking magic immune like a golem, polymorph into a rust monster or use the appropriate weakness spell. Using the weakness spell requires you have it memorized. Also, most of the weakness spells are not damage dealing. The Conjuration Orb spells will deal damage in full and are much more powerful because of it. Also, rust monsters are only good versus Iron Golems. There are Stone, Flesh and Tombstone Golems to consider. Basicly, you assume to much. For crying out loud, Shapechange into a Solar and smack any construct with roughly 4 DC 23 Fort saves (which they suck at) or be destroyed in a round. Please. Sweet Jesu. Summon something, save or die. Why would you use a maximised orb at 17th level? Versus a construct, there are few save or die spells that will effect it. There are many for elementals, plants, and vermin, but damage will accomplish that same result if the party is properly and similarly equiped. Against whom there are other options. True, and Arcane Strike is quite useful against them. The Fighter is not versatile at all outside of melee combat and archery, and is the most dependent class in the game. The Cleric smokes the Bard in every area except helping others, smokes them in that area too if you allow Complete Divine, and even then is so strong that a party of Clerics can do without a bard. The Rogue works differently altogether, though he doesn't have aspects of versatility the Bard has. First, anything a Cleric can do, a Bard can do with a scroll. Second, everything is time dependant. If a member had all the time in the world, then they could cast everything and be ready. Unfortunately, taking time to cast spells can lead to party members taking more damage than necessary (again, assuming party dynamic is more important than personal dynamic). Since it takes us 3 rounds to finish an opponent (as a party), our cleric is more likely going to cast Harm than Implosion if we run into an opponent that will be effected by it. What's stopping them from getting an adamantine weapon? Nothing. But Arcane Strike will only be competitive in damage with Power Attack. How is a golem immune to a Cleric's Summons, or his Holy Word? How is a golem immune to a Divine Power Righteous Might Spiked Divine Favored cleric bashing on it with an adamantine heavy mace for more damage in a full attack than the barbarian? Let's compare to the barbarian this time. The Barbarian is at most going to have +4 hit and damage per attack. Compare to the Bard's choices. Heroism, +2 to hit. Good Hope, +2 hit and damage. Haste, extra attack +1 to hit and AC. Greater Heroism +4 to hit. Snowsong +4 to hit. Arcane strike bonus to hit and damage based on spell sacrificed. ANy of the above stack with Arcane Strike. So a Bard under Good Hope compared to the Barbarian is 50% weaker than the effect the Barbarian can perform. Plus the Barbarian has up to 5 points higher BAB. In the first round of combat, a Barbarian will Rage and charge (hopefully using Leap attack). The bard will cast Haste and wait for the opponent to charge him. The tactics are very different and because of them, and the damage output will depend on each tactic. Tehe barbarian will deal damage first, but take more damage as much damage as the bard because of the -2 AC for charging/+2 to hit from charging. Now when the Bard attacks, he will deal more damage per hit dependant on how often the barbarian hits. Assuming a two handed weapon for the Barbarian and the Power Attack feat, let's compare the dmage value for the same to hit value. Assuming the same enhancement bonus, the damage will be based upon the str and BAB of the attacker. The Barbarian at 20th level will have 5 points more BAB. The Bard can have a +2 to +4 bonus in effect prior to combat quite easily (Heroism and Snow song have a 10 min/level duration). If the Bard uses his first action to cast Haste, this makes the bonus equal, while if the Barbarian charges the first round and rages, he gets a +6 bonus in the first attack to shift to dam,age with power attack. If the first round hits, the barbarian would deal an extra 12 damage from power attack and an extra + 6 points of damage for +8 strength bonus with a two handed weapon. +20 damage is nice for one round. The bard would get hit the first round, and deal his damage on the second round. During the second round, the barbarian would sacrifice his +4 bonus to hit from rage to get +8 bonus to damage, plus his +6 bonus to damage from rage. The bard would sacrifice his highest (or second highest) spell to deal that bonus to hit and +1d4 dice per level sacrificed. So the Barbarian, 20/15/10/5 plus str bonuses versus 15/15/10/5 plus spell sacrifced +1 for Haste and up to +4 to hit from spell effects should mean 20 + 6 for str + 3 enhancement to str + 14 damage for raging/power attack versus 15 plus str +2 + 3 enhancement for str +1 Haste +2 to hit +2 damage (Good Hope) + 5 to hit +5d4 damage per hit (from arcane strike). These totals would be 29/24/19/14 for 2d6 + 26 damage per hit (two handed sword)versus 28/28/23/18 for 1d8 +7 + 6d4 (for longsword). Based on this, the bard would hit with 3.5 attacks versus a CR 20 rating compared to 3 attacks from the Barbarian. The Bard would adverage 114 damage per round plus enhancement bonus while the barbarian would adverage 99 points of damage per round. Overall, since the barbarian is attacking during the first round, he would likely deal more damage overall. When you compare the two, the Bard isn't slouching in the damage department. You're right on all but the Cleric, who is outright strong in every area. Yes the Bard is strong by buffing his companions. That is his greatest strength, although he is quite versatile too. The Bard is second best in every area. When comparing BAB, combat effectiveness, spell casting, and healing, the bard is second in every area. As such, he is better in 3 areas over another class while they are better than one area than him. First, what are you talking about not having Scorching Ray later? Wizard has tons more Scorching Rays than bard has CSWs at any level. You are confusing the Sorcerer with the Wizard. Tenh wizard CAN have more scorching rays if he prepares as such. You're using the Completes. That means Complete Arcane's Transdimensional Spell if necessary. Hell, an Empowered Magic Missile does as much damage as your CSW and can never miss. Cure Serious Wounds versus Empowered Magic Missle. At 7th level, 4d4+4 empower to 6d4 +4 versus 3d8 +7. Empowered Magic Missle would deal 25 points of damage on adverage. CSW would deal 20 points of damage on adverage, save for half. So you are correct, if you prepare a Empowered Magic Missle instead of a basic Fireball, you would deal more damage to an ethereal undead than the Bard. But if you prepared Fireball instead, ethereal creatures get half damage from energy attacks. So 7d6 would adverage 12 points save for half from fireball versus 20 points save for half. At 7th level, would you more likely have an empowered Magic Missle or a Fireball memorized? What class would be likely to tell you to memorize the empowered magic missle? Either the Augery of the Cleric, or the Gather Information/Bardic Knowledge from the Bard. What a wizard CAN do is highly dependant on having the proper spell in the spellbook and then having that spell memorized. It is more likely the Wizard wil have an empowered Scorching Ray spell. With 2 rays, and 50% miss chance, one ray should hit for 6d4 damage, half for ethereal to 3d6 damage, adverging 10 points of damage. The wizard would more like use his normal Magic Missle spell for 4d4 +4 damage adverging 14 points. This would probably be a better attack than the bard's CSW spell since there is a 50% miss chance. Although the wizard has the edge, this is more realistic than your scenario. As my bard, I would probably cast Haste and Inspire Heroics to increase the touch AC bonus of the Wizard so the attacks from the ethereal undead were more likely to miss. You have to catch their attention to do so. The only way is through the half-elf racial sub level in Races of Destiny, which allows a half-elf bard to Calm Emotions using his Diplomacy check as the save DC. Pretty much a guaranteed combat-ender if they're vulnerable to mind-affecting and share a language. What do you think the DC for a listen check would be? At worst (with no ranks) it is 50/50. That's nice. Paladins should have good Cha anyways. Depending on the Int of the Paladin, he is likely to have 3 skill points per level. Ride is one. Regardless, the edge is always with the Bard.
RadicalTaoist 10-26-05, 03:43 PM	For example? Divine Metamagic, Divine Might, the Vigor spells, Quill Blast for druids, tactical feats for fighters, Divine Spell Power, Persistent Spell, Complete Arcane's metamagics, and a lot more. What is DD? Direct damage. Blasting spells. Useful at mid levels, much less so at highest and lowest levels I am 17th level, our wizard is 14th. Fancy that... How so? You make statements without anything to back them up. I carry scrolls of Divine favor in case I need them. I can choose to be as efficient. Also, I have Haste on my class list while the Cleric does not. Comparitively, Haste versus Divine Favor, Haste is better. It effects the whole party. You have UMD. That's nice. That still leaves you reliant on non-renewable resources if you want to use Divine Favor as much as the cleric. Only class that can use magic items as a reliable replacement for the actual spell lists is the Artificer, and the Artificer is mad insane hello-my-sorry-druid-friend overpowered. Since you want examples, I recommend going down to the CO boards and looking in the FAQ for the Optimized Guide to Artificers, by Caelic. I'll find the link soon. Second, Haste is a 3rd level spell, Divine Favor is a 1st level spell. You get Haste at character level 7, at which point the cleric has Divine Power. Well, summon spells are weak per caster level. A summon monster 9 is a CR 13. Depends on how they're used. You can use their spell-like abilities to make up for your own spells, you can use them just to mob. Summon Monster gives you more versatility, Summon Nature's Ally gives you more melee power. And if you put 4 summoned creatures in between the golem and the archer who is pelting the golem with adamantine arrows, the golem is most likely going down. I'll give you 2 to 1 odds. Cash. Why do you have to ask why is it weaker? Holy Word? Are you kidding? Golems would be immune to that spell. While any class could have an adamantine weapon, few would deal the amount of damage that Arcane Strike can. Leap Attack is the only example I can think of that compares.My error on Holy Word, I thought those spells had no SR. Power Word spells do. That said, Arcane Strike can be surpassed. Druids, even without the ability to bypass DR, can assume forms and buff and then do more damage than Arcane Strike, especially with a buffed animal companion helping them. A fully combat buffed cleric can do very nicely without Arcane Strike. Also, Arcane Strike is limited by your BAB (can't have more than your BAB's worth of bonus going in a round) and burns your spell slots. How many rounds of combat do you guys do in a day? Not sure on the Spiked Divine Favored part, but let's look at the spells mentioned. First, Divine Power and Righteous Might are 1/round per level spells. Good Hope is a 1/min per level spell. That means you are likely casting the Divine spells during combat rather than prior to it. That's a huge difference. Usually, I only cast one spell or use one song during the first round of combat. Haste is the most common. That was I can make a 5' step into combat and get a full round of attacks. So round one, cast Haste. Round 2, use Arcane Strike with full round of attacks. Seem sI have acomplished two things in my example. One, I am efficient. Two, I can be effective quickly. Correction: Divine Power and Divine Might are going all day long thanks to Persistent Divine Metamagic (Complete Arcane). So they will be up. Thanks to Beads of Karma, an Orange Ioun Stone, a Candle of Invocation or two and maybe Divine Spell Power they will be at insane CLs and likely never dispelled. Spikes is insane and lasts for hours I think. Divine Favor for minutes. Both of those are low enough level to eventually be Persistent without Divine Metamagic. I never questioned the strength of the cleric or bard, I am saying the bard is very strong when you focus on one area. Overall, their strength is versatility. I must agree with you there. They can choose what they want to do, and do it well. But not do it best. Ok, first. I have no ideea what CSW is. Second, Transdimentional spell requires two things. First, taking the feat. Second, enhancing a spell with the feat in advance. A maximized Magic Missle is not going to deal more damage than myself under the effect of Improved Blink. Round one, I cast Improved Blink. If opponent is close, I will full round attack (in which the AC of the opponent is probably very low, while my AC is 50% likely to be at full strength rather than a touch AC.) otherwise, I will cast Haste, use Combat Expertise, or sing a song to increase my combat ability. Magic Missle is unlikely to deal more than 25 points of damage a round. I deal more than that with one attack. CSW=Cure Serious Wounds (thanks Nephilite). You have to spend a feat slot on Arcane Strike anyways. I was comparing a CSW to what Wizards could blast with to argue that Cure spells do not make a Bard better than other classes at handling undead. Magic Missile may not do that much damage, but Empowered Scorching Rays will. You are not very far ahead of the mage at slaying undead. It isn't the only way. Heavens no. But it is the best, and yet it still leaves the Bard short at plants, undead, vermin, and constructs, and creatures that don't speak. Besides, even Diplomacy has it's limits. Getting a Lich to Friendly might mean he thinks "this guy is great. I'll let him be my servant for the rest of his life. Maybe even longer!" Good, sure. Better than the Bard, not likely. As a CO regular I can say Diplomacy checks do get redundant. When you get to the point where the Pally has a bonus of +40 and the bard has a bonus of +80, it's like "WHO CARES? NO ONE DISAGREES WITH YOU GUYS ANYMORE ANYWAYS!" If he wants to use scrolls, easily so. If not, he can convince others he is capable of such things. Bluff is also much fun like Diplomacy. That doesn't change the fact that the Wizard actually does it whether others think he is capable of doing so or not. You can Bluff all you want that you can annihilate a foe without leaving the safety of your arcane laboratory. The Wizard will simply do so and the foe will never get the chance to Sense Motive him. Our fighter is a double sword wielding Fighter. He is quite capable of dishing out the same damage I am. In the combat I mentioned, he didn't. He through is sword (it is returning), and then charged the opponent (just the way combat occured that round). I'd hope he's capable of doing 200 damage a round. Every class is dependant on their stats and items. How do you figure our cleric should be dealing 200 points of damage a round. He is a cleric of Pelor with the Str and Healing Domains. Tougher but not impossible. What level is your cleric? What are his feats? Most of the party's combats last 3 rounds. We managed to kill a Balor in one round, once. All I am saying is my bard is on par with your examples of 200 points of damage a round more so than most bards are. As such, I know Bards are not weak by any means. No they are not. They are not weak. But they are not the most powerful. They are like Psions, Psychic Warriors, Barbarians, Paladins and the other classes I consider balanced in this regard. RadicalTaoist, I understand you disagree with me. That is fine. But please site example with your statements. I apologise for that. I argue like a COBster, and down there everyone knows what everyone else is referring to. Just saying the cleric is as powerful (or more) powerful than the bard means very little. A cleric is a powerful class. It has many strengths to it. None of which will mean anything if the cleric doesn't devote the specific feats and spells that you have failed to mention. Well to clarify, I am simply drawing the line between what is overpowered good (cleric) and what is merely just good (bard). Big difference between the two. If our party is capable of destroying a single opponent with less than 300 HP in one round, why would we have time to cast multiple spells in adavnce that do not have more than a 1 round/level duration. I point again to Divine Metamagic. In the example of my last combat, I had gone up in advance to try and speak to the oppoents. They required a password in which I did not know. That lead to combat. The party arrived 3 rounds later. They used ranged attacks to get the opponents attention, to pull off the threats against me. I never made a full round attack against any opponent, but our ranger made two rounds of full round archery attacks at over 150' away. Overall, our group of 5 is quite capable. (fighter, cleric, ranger, wizard, bard) We lost our Rogue player about 7 levels earlier. That's good teamwork. Sorry about your Rogue. How do you handle traps? Summons? EDIT: Gah, you've responded. I'm not going to have the time to respond to it all, sorry. :( Can I temporarily redirect you to the CharOp boards for how I calculate what a wizard and cleric and such are capable of? I know it seems like a cop-out, but there's no way I'll be able to get to your whole response in any reasonable time, and they know as much about class power as I do.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-26-05, 05:01 PM	Divine Metamagic, Divine Might, the Vigor spells, Quill Blast for druids, tactical feats for fighters, Divine Spell Power, Persistent Spell, Complete Arcane's metamagics, and a lot more. Ok, comparing apples to apples. A Quickened spell uses a spell slot 4 levels higher than it's normal spell slot. I believe Persistant spell uses a spell slot 6 levels higher (I don't have my com[plete Arcane in front of me so I am not entirely certain.) As such it is more likelu that the Cleric would use a Divine Power spell quickened. Even as such, that would require a 8th level spell slot. While the cleric would have to be 15th level to have the ability to use Divine Power and Righteous Might after one round, a Bard gets Arcane Strike at 12th level and can use it with all his spells from that point on (since he gets haste at 7th level). Direct damage. Blasting spells. Useful at mid levels, much less so at highest and lowest levels Personally, I find them useful at all levels. Fancy that... Our Fighter, Cleric, and myself, the Bard are 17th level. The Wizard is 14th. I beleive the Range is 15th, You have UMD. That's nice. That still leaves you reliant on non-renewable resources if you want to use Divine Favor as much as the cleric. Only class that can use magic items as a reliable replacement for the actual spell lists is the Artificer, and the Artificer is mad insane hello-my-sorry-druid-friend overpowered. Since you want examples, I recommend going down to the CO boards and looking in the FAQ for the Optimized Guide to Artificers, by Caelic. I'll find the link soon. Second, Haste is a 3rd level spell, Divine Favor is a 1st level spell. You get Haste at character level 7, at which point the cleric has Divine Power. Divine Favor versus Haste? Come on. I would compare Divine Favor to Good Hope, but if we must. One extra attack and +1 hit/AC/Reflex save versus +1 hit/damage per 4 levels personal use only. There is a reason a first level spell isn't the same as a third level spell. At 7th level, Good Hope is the same as Divine Favor, except Divine Favor lasts one minute and Good Hope effects the entire group for 1 min per level. But if +2 to hit and damage personal is somehow superior to +1 attack +1 to hit and AC, then by all means acknowledge Inspire Courage and Good Hope (Bardic spells/abilities) are superior to Divine Favor. Depends on how they're used. You can use their spell-like abilities to make up for your own spells, you can use them just to mob. Summon Monster gives you more versatility, Summon Nature's Ally gives you more melee power. And if you put 4 summoned creatures in between the golem and the archer who is pelting the golem with adamantine arrows, the golem is most likely going down. I'll give you 2 to 1 odds. Cash. I disagree with the versatility. Most Summon spells (Arcane/Divine rather than Druidic) stack templates on the creature (Fiendish/Celestial). This doesn't make them more versatile. Their spell penetration becomes inferior to the CR ratings you are facing. I agree Summon Nature's Ally is far superior, but assuming you will get 4 summoned creatures that will successful hold back the CR monster is quite assumptive. It is more likely you will get one or two (more than that is multiple castings of the spell) and, as such, the creatures you summon are unlikely to deal much damage nor receive much damage. An elemental of the level in which you can summon will only survive two rounds of combat. If the opponent has any intellegence, it will move past the elemental to get to the sorce of it's trouble. Your fighter type (tank/brick/etc) will more likely gather the attention of an opponent. My error on Holy Word, I thought those spells had no SR. Power Word spells do. That said, Arcane Strike can be surpassed. Druids, even without the ability to bypass DR, can assume forms and buff and then do more damage than Arcane Strike, especially with a buffed animal companion helping them. A fully combat buffed cleric can do very nicely without Arcane Strike. Also, Arcane Strike is limited by your BAB (can't have more than your BAB's worth of bonus going in a round) and burns your spell slots. How many rounds of combat do you guys do in a day? NP on Holy Word. Power Word spells require a HP determination to be successful (hense damage is important). Arcane Strike cannot be surpassed. It applies as Sneak Attack damage but toward any foe. It has a price to keep it balanced. The ability to turn a Improved Invisibility spell into +4 to hit and +4d4 damage (per attack) is significant and powerful. The BAB limitation is irrelavent since the first opportunity you can take it you have almost a +6 BAB. Although it does require a spell slot, it is amazing how many spell slots you have when you only burn one or two spells during a combat. We can perform any number of combats in a day. The most I recall was 8 combats in one day. Correction: Divine Power and Divine Might are going all day long thanks to Persistent Divine Metamagic (Complete Arcane). Is this two feats? Persistant spell should cost 6 levels more than the spell in question. Divine Might is a 4th level spell. If divine metamagic lowers the spell level, by how much. If by one lvele, then when the Bard gets an effective Arcane strike (12th level), the cleric has to wait until 17th level to do the same effect. So they will be up. Thanks to Beads of Karma, an Orange Ioun Stone, a Candle of Invocation or two and maybe Divine Spell Power they will be at insane CLs and likely never dispelled. Spikes is insane and lasts for hours I think. Divine Favor for minutes. Both of those are low enough level to eventually be Persistent without Divine Metamagic. Divine favor lasts for 1 minute exactly. It can be made persistant at the cost of a 7th level spell slot which is available at 13th level. The bonus would be +3 to hit and damage. Greater Magic Weapon changes a weapon to a +3 weapon at a 4th level spell slot for 1 hour/level. Note candles of invocation are one use items. I am not saying this isn't significant, just note all the things you are stacking. Much less than my examples. I must agree with you there. They can choose what they want to do, and do it well. But not do it best. Second best can make you better than the rest of the group in many situations. CSW=Cure Serious Wounds (thanks Nephilite). You have to spend a feat slot on Arcane Strike anyways. I was comparing a CSW to what Wizards could blast with to argue that Cure spells do not make a Bard better than other classes at handling undead. Magic Missile may not do that much damage, but Empowered Scorching Rays will. You are not very far ahead of the mage at slaying undead. First, the Bard shouldn't be ahead of the cleric with undead damage. That should be given. Second, the Bard will compete for damage dealing versus any creature. Assuming a non-ethereal opponent, a Wizard or Cleric should out strip the Bard in damage. The wizard excels in arcane damage and the cleric excels in destroying undead. But should and will are two different stories. If the cleric/wizard doesn't prepare the proper spells, the bard can out do them both with Arcane Strike (since it does not require the proper memorization of spells). Heavens no. But it is the best, and yet it still leaves the Bard short at plants, undead, vermin, and constructs, and creatures that don't speak. I don't come to your same conclusion. Plants cannot be criticals, so how does the Cleric do better than the Bard? How does the Rogue or Fighter? Arcane Strike will deal the extra damage regardless of if it can recieve a critical hit. Same with undead. Vermin are usually vulnerable to area attack spells (shout is on the bard list), but wizards should be better at that unless it is a giant vermin; not a swarm. Non-swarm vermin are as susceptable to attacks as Rogue's sneak attack and fighter's power Attack.Constructs are an advantage for Bard's with Arcane strike. Few can compare the damage potential, regardless of weapon. As far as creatures that don't speak, a bard can damage them too. Should I even mention Charm Monster? Besides, even Diplomacy has it's limits. Getting a Lich to Friendly might mean he thinks "this guy is great. I'll let him be my servant for the rest of his life. Maybe even longer!" Well, Hostile to friendly is a DC of 40. As a full round action, it is -10 to the roll. As a CO regular I can say Diplomacy checks do get redundant. When you get to the point where the Pally has a bonus of +40 and the bard has a bonus of +80, it's like "WHO CARES? NO ONE DISAGREES WITH YOU GUYS ANYMORE ANYWAYS!" With the -10 to rolls less than 10 rounds, that is very significant. Bluff is also much fun like Diplomacy. That doesn't change the fact that the Wizard actually does it whether others think he is capable of doing so or not. You can Bluff all you want that you can annihilate a foe without leaving the safety of your arcane laboratory. The Wizard will simply do so and the foe will never get the chance to Sense Motive him. They are different ways of accomplishing the same task. I'd hope he's capable of doing 200 damage a round. He could. On adverage, he does 20 points of damage a round more than myself. Not bad considering he has 4 more attacks a round than myself. Tougher but not impossible. What level is your cleric? What are his feats? I couldn't tell you his feats exactly. He is a Radiant Servant of Pelor. he is 17th level. He must have extra Turning to be a Radiant. That's as much as I know for certain. No they are not. They are not weak. But they are not the most powerful. They are like Psions, Psychic Warriors, Barbarians, Paladins and the other classes I consider balanced in this regard. Again, a difference of opinion. I apologise for that. I argue like a COBster, and down there everyone knows what everyone else is referring to. LOL. Well, have you heard what happens when you assume? Well to clarify, I am simply drawing the line between what is overpowered good (cleric) and what is merely just good (bard). Big difference between the two. I think both classes have the potential to be overpowered. I point again to Divine Metamagic. Ok. That's good teamwork. Sorry about your Rogue. How do you handle traps? Summons? We don;t run into them too oftn, actually. We are of a high enough level that you must stack CR ratings to deal sufficient damage as a trap. EDIT: Gah, you've responded. I'm not going to have the time to respond to it all, sorry. :( Can I temporarily redirect you to the CharOp boards for how I calculate what a wizard and cleric and such are capable of? I know it seems like a cop-out, but there's no way I'll be able to get to your whole response in any reasonable time, and they know as much about class power as I do. I have just defended the abilities of the bard, not attacked the abilites of the Cleric/Wizard. I don't doubt their ability. I am stating a Bard can be equal, but different. When you can defeat an opponent with a single skill check, how is that any different from blasting it to pieces? To me, there isn't any difference. As the DMG states, for xp purposes, there isn't. If a treasure is not on the opponent, then treasure-wise it is no different either.
RadicalTaoist 10-26-05, 05:56 PM	:confused: Are you arguing that the bard can be overpowered? Because that's what I was arguing against. If not, then we're going in circles. If so, then I'll get back to things, although we may have different ideas of what makes something overpowered. Just to clarify.
CaoSlayer 10-27-05, 04:10 AM	ummm, divine metamagic (it is a feat that allows to use turn undead uses into metamagic), isnt very powerful, it is just broken because they forget to cap the max metamagic into your highest slot just like they did with bardic metamagic (yeah, bards have their own version of metamagic allowing to use they vast amount of bardic music uses). If the divine metamagic had the restriction of the bardic one or the bardic one didnt had it, then we could talk how a bard could do things like persistent improved invisibility or haste. I personally cap the use of divine metamagic since turns a near useless cleric feature to a godlike powerful feature.
Nyferto 10-27-05, 07:36 AM	Just to say, if a new form can use equipment - Polymorph makes equipment fit the new size. So it's rare that you'd actually loose certain items unless you vear from humanoid forms. Anyway, DD or Direct Damage isn't actually that bad at higher levels. Given that everyone else will be doing damage and most DD spells do damage even if the save is made - it's not that bad an Idea to do something that stacks with the rest of the parties output. Targeting weak saves is one thing. Having saves succeed is a waste of time for your caster. Having said that, whilst they have no save or die spells. Bards do have a good ability to target weak saves on the fly. In fact i've found them good at exploiting and sometimes exponentiating a weakness (you find a weakness, you make it worse). Given their typically approach to combat is to switch as it moves, their spells actually help them direct combat in a direction for the party. Unlike a full caster, there are more times where they'd be stuck doing nothing unless they tried something. It's this process of wanning enemies to dust that gives bards strength.
Quirriff 10-27-05, 08:53 AM	A good use of Direct damge spells is by using a wand to do it (think of it like high powered Amo/Artilary.
CaoSlayer 10-27-05, 09:19 AM	Just to say, if a new form can use equipment - Polymorph makes equipment fit the new size. So it's rare that you'd actually loose certain items unless you vear from humanoid forms. From srd about alterself (that it is the base for polymorph). When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. A large creature could maybe still hold the weapons (with the penalties of using a weapon of diferent size) but a large creature cant use normally armor-rings-helmets-boots-gloves-atmulets designed for a medium creature so those items melds with the new form. Neither alter self, neither polymorph affects the items held by the target of the spell. EDIT: Bards althrough lacks Save-or-Die spells, they have a good share of Save-or-be-screwed ones, by level 5 one failed save on tasha´s laught and by the time the spell runs out the party would have slayed him, prepared an ambrush or killed the rest of the enemies. ummm, wands and DD spells are a bad combination generally, because damage spells have usually a big dependence on caster level for damage or DCs for not dealing half damage... it is a way better option to use your slots in DD and keep in wands tool spells or buffers that cant be resisted or have enough duration at this base level.
Nyferto 10-27-05, 12:35 PM	Weird, It seems I've slipped into a parrallel dimension where Polymorph sucks just a bit less... unless there's been a revision that slipped by me. Anyway, Hideous Laughter is a bad spell. It's got a bonus if they're different type (which means a Polymorphed person can actually get the bonus). Then there's the material component - what the hell is all that about? Tiny tarts that are thrown at the target and a feather that is waved in the air. I mean yeah they've got good stuff, but I wouldn't consider that spell among them... it's alright but way to awkward. I'd rather use Grease or Hypnotism at those levels. I've also found Energy substitution good for Bard DD, if you bother that is.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-27-05, 02:21 PM	:confused: Are you arguing that the bard can be overpowered? Because that's what I was arguing against. If not, then we're going in circles. If so, then I'll get back to things, although we may have different ideas of what makes something overpowered. Just to clarify. I am indeed argueing that the Bard can be overpowered. No more or less overpowered than other classes, IMHO. I decided to read of on Divine metamagic, since you refer to it as 'broken'. A cleric receives 3+CHA modifier in Turn attempts per day. With a +6 cloak of cha, the adverage turn attempts will be 8 (unless you beleive that 4 increases into CHA instead of Wis are likely). Divine Metamagic must be assigned to one feat (Persistant Spell). So to accomplish Divine Metamagic, 7 turn attempts must be used to make one spell per day Persistant. This accomplishment cost 3 feats, Extend spell, Persistant Spell and Divine Metamagic. For 2 more feats, you can take Extra Turning twice allowing you to cast two Persistant spells per day. Considering that the spell can still be dispelled, this a high cost for you are stating is 'overpowered'.
RadicalTaoist 10-27-05, 06:38 PM	I am indeed argueing that the Bard can be overpowered. No more or less overpowered than other classes, IMHO. Ah, okay. Well that makes things easier since I consider none of what you did with the bard to be overpowered. I decided to read of on Divine metamagic, since you refer to it as 'broken'. A cleric receives 3+CHA modifier in Turn attempts per day. With a +6 cloak of cha, the adverage turn attempts will be 8 (unless you beleive that 4 increases into CHA instead of Wis are likely). Divine Metamagic must be assigned to one feat (Persistant Spell). So to accomplish Divine Metamagic, 7 turn attempts must be used to make one spell per day Persistant. This accomplishment cost 3 feats, Extend spell, Persistant Spell and Divine Metamagic. For 2 more feats, you can take Extra Turning twice allowing you to cast two Persistant spells per day. Considering that the spell can still be dispelled, this a high cost for you are stating is 'overpowered'. First let's throw on a Nightstick from Libris Mortis for 4 extra turning attempts. (The jury is on whether you can use multiple nightsticks for even more turning attempts). Second, let's throw on a Bead of Karma and a Candle of Invocation making it pretty unlikely a foe of equal CR will be able to dispel said Cleric's spells (unless, of course, they are another cleric). Third, let's consider that even a single Divine Power per day does plenty. Considering that it stacks with near everything else it's even better. Fourth, let's define what I mean by overpowered. A character is overpowered, in my view, when he either starts to render the rest of the party obsolete. The Divine Metamagic Battle Cleric can, effectively and practically, run all day on his own by the time you get to the levels you're talking about. Your Bard has performed spectacularly in a party and I must congratulate you on getting the most out of the class. You've gotten around your limited Arcane Strike stamina by making the combats extremely short. Nonetheless, I find it highly unlikely you could have gone through all those encounters with just that bard, unless you were able to evade/bypass/talk away from them. Likewise, I put better odds on the Divine Metamagic Battle Cleric's ability to survive an ambush than your bard's.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-27-05, 07:54 PM	First let's throw on a Nightstick from Libris Mortis for 4 extra turning attempts. (The jury is on whether you can use multiple nightsticks for even more turning attempts). Don't own that book so can't say what that is. The Cloak of Cha +6 would be a 36k investment. Second, let's throw on a Bead of Karma and a Candle of Invocation making it pretty unlikely a foe of equal CR will be able to dispel said Cleric's spells (unless, of course, they are another cleric). Ok, adding 20k for the Bead of Karma (or per bead of Karma), and 8,400 per single use Candle of Invocation. Unless you are specificly going into a dungeon/adventure environment, I doubt you would be using the Candle. In cases in which you do, it is less expensive than purchasing scrolls as a Bard (it gets even more odd when a Bard uses a Candle of Invocation for his spells since it says nothing about getting divine spells per day, in the case of Use Magic Device you would get Arcane spells two levels higher than your level. Hee hee.) Third, let's consider that even a single Divine Power per day does plenty. Considering that it stacks with near everything else it's even better. It can be. All powerful, nope. Makes you have a fighter BAB, it doesn't increase you str score. (Especially considering that you are focused on Wis and Cha.) Fourth, let's define what I mean by overpowered. A character is overpowered, in my view, when he either starts to render the rest of the party obsolete. The Divine Metamagic Battle Cleric can, effectively and practically, run all day on his own by the time you get to the levels you're talking about. Your Bard has performed spectacularly in a party and I must congratulate you on getting the most out of the class. You've gotten around your limited Arcane Strike stamina by making the combats extremely short. Nonetheless, I find it highly unlikely you could have gone through all those encounters with just that bard, unless you were able to evade/bypass/talk away from them. Likewise, I put better odds on the Divine Metamagic Battle Cleric's ability to survive an ambush than your bard's. You are entitled to your opinion. I can see the strength of what you purpose, but I am not certain I agree with you that either character can go alone facing opponents facing an equal monster CR rating (because class CR ratings are not the same in my opinion) all day. I mean, quantifing by stated 13 encounters would be more reasonable. How much down time between encounters? How often surprised compared to surprising? For example, I have Improved Blink and Improved Invisibility. Both give me a 50% miss chance (with some exceptions for each). The closest the cleric has to that is Sanctuary. Lastly, evade/bypass/talk my way out is a ligitiment method of overcoming an encounter. Let's also include, talk opponent into switching sides and helping you (or Charm Monster). Use of skills over spells uses zero resources and is a much more efficient use of your resources compared to using spells. When stating which character type can go 'all day', the Bard is more likely since he doesn't have to resort to spells or combat. I use Rod of Extend with my character and with many of my spells lasting 10 min per level, 3 1/2 hours of use from a single spell is very efficient. In a dungeon environment, when the party is controlling the tempo of where and when the advance, all day or an hour becomes effectively the same. If the party is constantly harassed/surprised/ambushed, you are at a disadvantage regardless of class. Having extra attacks does nothing for you when you are surprised. It helps less if you can't win inititive after the surprise round. Example: Balor teleports next to you. Roll to see if you are surprised. If so, now roll for inititive (Balor will probable beat a cleric). What character would want a Balor to get 5 attacks prior to you responding? Basicly, I am stating your opinion that the Cleric will make the party obsolete is absurd. I do know I have been in situation in which the majority of the party felt obsolete, but that found a way to be useful with what they had (the rogue would still flank and aid another, the wizard cast different buff spells). What you haven't 'proven' is how much damage the Cleric will dish out during a combat. if the cleric is going to resort to his spells, Persistant Divine Power isn't doing much for that cleric. If he resorts to melee, how much damage is he going to do per round? How quickly you defeat your opponent is important since it also determines how many rounds of attacks you will receive. The longer it takes you, the more likely you will need to use your resources for healing.
RadicalTaoist 10-27-05, 10:15 PM	Ok, adding 20k for the Bead of Karma (or per bead of Karma), and 8,400 per single use Candle of Invocation. Unless you are specificly going into a dungeon/adventure environment, I doubt you would be using the Candle. In cases in which you do, it is less expensive than purchasing scrolls as a Bard (it gets even more odd when a Bard uses a Candle of Invocation for his spells since it says nothing about getting divine spells per day, in the case of Use Magic Device you would get Arcane spells two levels higher than your level. Hee hee.) Yeah, Candles are sweet. Good exploit. Do note you are talking about 17th level. This is chump change at 17th level. It can be. All powerful, nope. Makes you have a fighter BAB, it doesn't increase you str score. (Especially considering that you are focused on Wis and Cha.) ? What copy of Divine Power are you reading? It saves me the cost of a Belt of Ogre Strength, if you want to talk gold costs. Is the enhancement bonus not stacking with items thing what you were talking about? Righteous Might will stack with that Str increase though. You are entitled to your opinion. I can see the strength of what you purpose, but I am not certain I agree with you that either character can go alone facing opponents facing an equal monster CR rating (because class CR ratings are not the same in my opinion) all day. I mean, quantifing by stated 13 encounters would be more reasonable. How much down time between encounters? How often surprised compared to surprising? Cleric can. Build it right and he can. Call me George Zimmer cause I guarantee it. Bard only can if he talks his way out, forsaking treasure and risking nonnegotiable foes. Which the cleric can do anyways. For example, I have Improved Blink and Improved Invisibility. Both give me a 50% miss chance (with some exceptions for each). The closest the cleric has to that is Sanctuary. The cleric can also get DR, and strong AC, and lots of hit points to tough it out until he can heal. Lastly, evade/bypass/talk my way out is a ligitiment method of overcoming an encounter. Let's also include, talk opponent into switching sides and helping you (or Charm Monster). Use of skills over spells uses zero resources and is a much more efficient use of your resources compared to using spells. When stating which character type can go 'all day', the Bard is more likely since he doesn't have to resort to spells or combat. It certainly is legitimate, but it doesn't get you treasure, and while the Cleric can't come close to the Bard in this regard he is also perfectly capable of bypassing encounters too. Heightened Sanctuary - I'll walk past encounters. Air Walk past grounded foes. Diplomacy as a class skill and good Cha. Command. I use Rod of Extend with my character and with many of my spells lasting 10 min per level, 3 1/2 hours of use from a single spell is very efficient. In a dungeon environment, when the party is controlling the tempo of where and when the advance, all day or an hour becomes effectively the same. If the party is constantly harassed/surprised/ambushed, you are at a disadvantage regardless of class. Having extra attacks does nothing for you when you are surprised. It helps less if you can't win inititive after the surprise round. Example: Balor teleports next to you. Roll to see if you are surprised. If so, now roll for inititive (Balor will probable beat a cleric). What character would want a Balor to get 5 attacks prior to you responding? No one wants 5 attacks from a Balor, but it will not stop the Cleric who will then proceed to kick it's ass. It can be done, on a regular basis. I'm not disputing the Bard is strong in a dungeon environment when you control the tempo of combat. So is the Psion, for example. I've heard Psion=overpowered arguments using the same basis, that the Psion can do it all and he'll do it all well - if he controls the tempo of combat and has a party to back him up. Every class should be strong if the party controls the time and works together. Bard and Psion are very much alike. Try denying them control of time and making them work on their own, for multiple encounters. They will run out of resources. Psion will die. Bard might get lucky and come up against foes he can talk his way out of. Then again, he might come up against a mindless foe and die. Cleric will go on his own, all day, and stand a very good chance. Basicly, I am stating your opinion that the Cleric will make the party obsolete is absurd. I do know I have been in situation in which the majority of the party felt obsolete, but that found a way to be useful with what they had (the rogue would still flank and aid another, the wizard cast different buff spells). What you haven't 'proven' is how much damage the Cleric will dish out during a combat. if the cleric is going to resort to his spells, Persistant Divine Power isn't doing much for that cleric. If he resorts to melee, how much damage is he going to do per round? How quickly you defeat your opponent is important since it also determines how many rounds of attacks you will receive. The longer it takes you, the more likely you will need to use your resources for healing. And I am stating that it can be done. Would you like me to crunch the numbers? It'll take me a day or two. All Completes allowed? Libris Mortis? Magic of Incarnum? Core-only (that cuts out Arcane Strike, a major point for the bard you represent)? Would you like multiple possible builds?
Arcanix 10-27-05, 11:20 PM	I for one am just rather impressed that anyone can make such a strong case for a bard being powerful/overpowered. Clerics have always been on the verge of being overpowered, even using the PHB only. I'd like to see the powerful/respected bard built using PHB only. I've been running bards for a while now, and just can't quite seem to piece it together. The various sourcebooks have more than compensated; sublime chord alone puts bards at the top of the pack. But I'd still like to see the bard that is powerful without sourcebooks or PrC's. I'm beginning to suspect that the cleric being overpowered is what makes the bard seem weak. Clerics can do just about anything bards can, with the exception of bardic effects, stealth and some knowledges, with a better HD, better armor, and equal damage. The turning and domains/domain powers make clerics just sick and wrong; the bard has no powers to come close to these. Not to mention the majority of posts I've seen on bards being underpowered cite clerics as the counterexample "balanced" class. Of course the other thing I've always felt holds the bard back is that annoying line under the description of the silent spell feat that states that bard spells are unaffected by the feat. I cannot for the life of me fathom the reasoning of giving the only primary caster with hide and move silently as class skills this restriction. Without this restriction, the bard would have a great and specifically defined niche that he alone could best fit; stealthy caster. An arcane spy supreme, using his skills and spells together to effectiveness unrivaled by any other class... this is my dream of what a bard could do. I just can't get a DM to allow it. Hey, that's not a bad question; and it still ties into the thread; would allowing bard spells to be affected by silent spell make them balanced, or overpowered?
RadicalTaoist 10-28-05, 12:03 AM	I'd like to see the powerful/respected bard built using PHB only. I've been running bards for a while now, and just can't quite seem to piece it together. The various sourcebooks have more than compensated; sublime chord alone puts bards at the top of the pack. But I'd still like to see the bard that is powerful without sourcebooks or PrC's. Go archery. Inspire Courage + Inspire Greatness is better than Weapon Focus and Specialization, and you can share it with the whole party (Perform: Sing so you don't use your hands). Improved Blink and Invisibility will keep others from targeting you. Max UMD, use it if necessary but don't depend on that. You'll do perfectly nice damage, be pretty much safe, and make the whole party strong as hell, plus can pull rabbits out of hats in case of emergencies. Of course the other thing I've always felt holds the bard back is that annoying line under the description of the silent spell feat that states that bard spells are unaffected by the feat. I cannot for the life of me fathom the reasoning of giving the only primary caster with hide and move silently as class skills this restriction. Without this restriction, the bard would have a great and specifically defined niche that he alone could best fit; stealthy caster. An arcane spy supreme, using his skills and spells together to effectiveness unrivaled by any other class... this is my dream of what a bard could do. I just can't get a DM to allow it. Hey, that's not a bad question; and it still ties into the thread; would allowing bard spells to be affected by silent spell make them balanced, or overpowered? It would be redundant as WotC released Subsonics and Nonverbal Casting as feats (Complete Adventurer and the Planar Handbook respectively). You can whisper your spells as quietly as you wish. EDIT: The boards cut me off mid-reply.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-28-05, 10:03 AM	Yeah, Candles are sweet. Good exploit. Do note you are talking about 17th level. This is chump change at 17th level. Not exactly. Adverage treasure is 36k per encounter. In a party of 4, your share would be 9k. If you faced one encounter a day, you would be blowing your 8 of your 9k share of Canles of Invocation. If you used it daily, and only faced one envounter every 2 day, you would be at a loss. This doesn't even get into time (if you craft them yourself), or availability (if you purchase them). ? What copy of Divine Power are you reading? It saves me the cost of a Belt of Ogre Strength, if you want to talk gold costs. Is the enhancement bonus not stacking with items thing what you were talking about? Righteous Might will stack with that Str increase though. Sorry, my error on Divine Power. I have a Belt of Str +6 so ignore the enhancement bonus. Yes, you can have a Righteous Might in effect as well. As a Bard, I can have Arcane Strike by 9th level. While you could have Divine Power Persistant by the time you get 7th level (using all your feats if you were human), you would not have them means to have a Bead of Karma/Candle of Invocation. In this manner, you would still be vulnerable to Dispel effects. Cleric can. Build it right and he can. Call me George Zimmer cause I guarantee it. Bard only can if he talks his way out, forsaking treasure and risking nonnegotiable foes. Which the cleric can do anyways. Forsaking treasure? What kind of Bards do you see played? Diplomacy check to make friends. Hang out and chat. Perform for your new friend. Use Suggestion/Charm to have your friend give you treasure (you are moving to a safer spot, for example), or have your new ally go with you and fight. If he gets killed, strip the body at that point. Fascinate (when performed) gives a penalty to SLeight of Hand checks. I haven't even started with Improved Invisibility and SIlence. Intellegent creatures can be talked out of their treasure. Non-intellegent creatures don't care about treasure, so you won't have to worry about them chasing you down to get it back. The cleric can also get DR, and strong AC, and lots of hit points to tough it out until he can heal. Ironskin Chant gives DR. The DR from Righteous Might is not unpenetrable. With a Good Dex score, light armor (mithril especially) can have a higher AC than with Dex than Full Plate (+4 chain shirt +7 dex modifier for total of 11 versus +8 for Full Plate +1 for Dex = 9. Mithril Full plate is more expensive than a chain shirt so let's not compare that.) As far as HP and out healing, with my bard having extra feats, Improved Toughness makes the adverage HP between the cleric and Bard equal. ALso, with the extra feats, I can take Combat Expertise to increase my AC further. Although a Bard cannot out heal a cleric, most healing issues are not a factor if played correctly. The basic part is a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. If you have the time to stand and cast without being attacks, a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a very efficient method of boucing back. Otherwise, no one would doubt that a Cleric can out heal anyone. They have more spells per day than the Bard and the Heal spell alone is far superior to what the Bard can cast. The Bard is a support healer only. That said, at lower levels, the Bard is capable of healing himself. It certainly is legitimate, but it doesn't get you treasure, and while the Cleric can't come close to the Bard in this regard he is also perfectly capable of bypassing encounters too. Heightened Sanctuary - I'll walk past encounters. Air Walk past grounded foes. Diplomacy as a class skill and good Cha. Command. I have already explained how to get around the treasure issue. Heighten Sanctuary is a good example (but don't ignore the fact you have used up many of your feats, and you will be using a high level spell slot). Diplomacy may stop a fight, but won't get you the treasure like the Bard can. Command only lasts one round. No one wants 5 attacks from a Balor, but it will not stop the Cleric who will then proceed to kick it's ass. Two words, Vorpal Sword. Hard to kick ass if you don't have a head. It can be done, on a regular basis. I'm not disputing the Bard is strong in a dungeon environment when you control the tempo of combat. So is the Psion, for example. I've heard Psion=overpowered arguments using the same basis, that the Psion can do it all and he'll do it all well - if he controls the tempo of combat and has a party to back him up. Every class should be strong if the party controls the time and works together. Bard and Psion are very much alike. Try denying them control of time and making them work on their own, for multiple encounters. They will run out of resources. Psion will die. Bard might get lucky and come up against foes he can talk his way out of. Then again, he might come up against a mindless foe and die. What mindless foe is so overpowering against a Bard? With Arcane Strike, a Bard can kill an opponent (without preparation) in about 3 rounds in melee. Certainly a cleric has advantages, but situations are just that. I could mention facing an ooze. The Cleric could cast Heightened Sanctuary or Flame Strike. The Bard would have to use Shout or Shadow Evocation (or use a device). Although I acknowledge the cleric could have an advanatge (if prepared in advance), when it came to melee the bard would have the advanatage. In the above case of oozes, oozes are slow and have low AC, so a Bard could take the time to buff himself by moving away and casting (especially if you started with Haste). In cases where the Bard took Combat Expertise, a 17th level bard can raise his AC +1 Haste +4 Inspire Heroics +5 Combat Expertise. This doesn't include Blink/Improved Blink to have a 50% miss chance. The Bard can get aound the need for healing by not taking damage in the first place. It's a different use of resources, but can be just as effective. Cleric will go on his own, all day, and stand a very good chance. This is a generic statement. Any class can go on their own, all day if they face a limited amount or no encounters. Based on the description in the DMG, an adverage party should be able to face 4 encounter per day using 80% of their resources. It also states that at higher levels, this becomes less accurate. Assuming adverages, that means a single PC should be able to face one encounter per day (probably 2 by the higher levels) using 80% of their resources. That said, going 'all day' would probably infer about 8 encounters of the same CR. And I am stating that it can be done. Would you like me to crunch the numbers? It'll take me a day or two. All Completes allowed? Libris Mortis? Magic of Incarnum? Core-only (that cuts out Arcane Strike, a major point for the bard you represent)? Would you like multiple possible builds? Do as you like. I brought out the point since you have made generic statements without much to support it. The weakest arguement would have is on damage output. I will debate this and provide counter arguements as long as I believe I am correct (unless my computer blows up. :) ). If you did want such a 'creation debate', I would recommend a single character build at 6th, 12th, and 18th level using adverage treasure and whatever point buy (since die roll campaigns radically alter the equivalent point buy; a die roll for stats could easily overtake a 28 point buy). If you take an item creation feat, you pay 70% of the actual costs from your total treasure. The down side of thios type of debate is twofold. First, a cleric's spells change daily so you must provide an 'adverage' selection of spells. Second, without a foe to face, the static test proves little. On the idea of 8 encounters per day (at the highest level), would probably only be 4 at 12th level and 2 at 6th level. Which encounters would they be? Undead are an advantage for the Cleric while Intellegent foes are an advantage for the Bard. How many encounters are truly only going to be made up by unintelligent creatures/golems/oozes anyways? The only examples I have been looking for is how much damage output per round can you provide and how did you come to that determination. As far as I can tell, the ouput is 1d8 (mace/morningstar) + 4 or 5 from str (enhanced) +2 to 5 from enhancemnt (greater magic weapon) and +2-5 from Divine favor (plus righteous might and divine power when applicable, as I have already included the str bonus above for divine power). From what I can see, that adverage to about 16 points of damage per hit about half from my damage output in melee.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-28-05, 10:23 AM	I for one am just rather impressed that anyone can make such a strong case for a bard being powerful/overpowered. Clerics have always been on the verge of being overpowered, even using the PHB only. Thank you. I'd like to see the powerful/respected bard built using PHB only. I've been running bards for a while now, and just can't quite seem to piece it together. The various sourcebooks have more than compensated; sublime chord alone puts bards at the top of the pack. But I'd still like to see the bard that is powerful without sourcebooks or PrC's. That debate becomes more difficult since you are now scaling the Bardic ability to overcome an encounter by communication. Since communication can overcome an encounter without the use of any resources, does that make it more powerful? Is taking a dragon into fleeing so you can take his treasure with using only skills more powerful than a wizard blasting it into pieces with spells? If so, by how much? How many spells would it take to blast the foe to pieces? The 'scale' is part of the problem. The pro bard camp can easily show when they come to bear, with little or no resources they can overcome an encounter. But Wziards have charm monster; rogues can use stealth; clerics can have heightened Sanctuary. The other classes are capable of similar abilities (even if sometimes it is a 50/50 chance with a spell). Because the scale cannot truly be created, the debates become rather silly after a fashion. No one would claim that the Wizard or Rogue is the best to overcome a Golem, while you would say the cleric is the best healer in the game. Some things are very obvious, but what is it's inherant value? Overall, skills are the best value in the game. They are an infinate reuseable resource. That said, they only have value if they can be used in a situation. Disguise might not get you far if you don't have bluff, for example. I'm beginning to suspect that the cleric being overpowered is what makes the bard seem weak. Clerics can do just about anything bards can, with the exception of bardic effects, stealth and some knowledges, with a better HD, better armor, and equal damage. The turning and domains/domain powers make clerics just sick and wrong; the bard has no powers to come close to these. Not to mention the majority of posts I've seen on bards being underpowered cite clerics as the counterexample "balanced" class. The debate is of spells and special abilities (such as turning and domains) versus less spells for the cleric versus more skills and different special abilities from the bard. Most could simplify the arguement with one word, Miracle. A possible zero xp cost wish is what makes all the toehr arguements moot (but is very dependant on the Dm who would allow such abuse to occur in their campaign). ALso, since Bardic abilities effect a group, it becomes less appriciated since many prefer a strong effect on themselves versus a moderate ability on many. Haste, for example, is like a moderate Divine Power on the party. It is 2 levels lower and has different effects. It also stacks with Divine Power. Now when you take that case comparing Bard versus Cleric, now how do you compare it since the wizard also gets Haste. Is Haste as poweful as Fireball? As mentioned before, the scale is very dependant on the scenario. Of course the other thing I've always felt holds the bard back is that annoying line under the description of the silent spell feat that states that bard spells are unaffected by the feat. I cannot for the life of me fathom the reasoning of giving the only primary caster with hide and move silently as class skills this restriction. Without this restriction, the bard would have a great and specifically defined niche that he alone could best fit; stealthy caster. An arcane spy supreme, using his skills and spells together to effectiveness unrivaled by any other class... this is my dream of what a bard could do. I just can't get a DM to allow it. Hey, that's not a bad question; and it still ties into the thread; would allowing bard spells to be affected by silent spell make them balanced, or overpowered? The Bard has Sculpt Sound (to lessen the volume to a whisper) and Zone of Silence to overcome this restriction. Overall, it doesn't matter much.
WihHizwind 10-28-05, 10:38 AM	The Bard, if done correctly, is horribly, horribly broken. I would like to point out three things: 1 - Fascinate is fought off with a will save. The DC is based off a skill check (Lets say Perform [Fishwaving]). This means that the average DC for fascinate will be 13+Level+CHA+Skill Focus+Item Bonus. At level 20, that's going to be (Assuming a 26 Charisma, and an item of +10 to Perform [Fishwaving], which isn't as high as it could get) 13+20+8+3+10 - DC 44. And that's being nice. 2 - A fascinated creature can be given a will save against a suggestion each round it is fascinated (infact, a 18th can make a suggestion against all of the fascinated creatures each round), at a DC of 10+(1/2*Level)+CHA+Ability Focus (+2 to DC of ability...Monster Mash) - assuming the above stats, this will be DC 30. And this can be done once a round - twice if you have Quicken Spell-Like Ability. 3 - By taking the feat Supernatural Transformation (Savage Species) you can turn these abilities into supernatural abilities, removing SR. By taking Subsonics (Song and Silence) you can use the ability without people having to see you. It's not the hardest thing in the world to get a DC 40+ ability that ignores SR and turns someone/thing into a puppet for you to play with. Oh wait, it is - except for the bard. Then there's the small matter of some nice Bard only spells, like Modify Memory - useful spell, that one. And don't forget Glibness - +30 to your bluff check, and they need a level check to magically detect your lies. Oh, and arcane healing. Bards, my dear sir, are the most broken class in the PHB. They can convince a dwarf he is an elf with minimum hassle - now imagine what that sort of skill can do in a social setting. Seriously. The one Bard I've played, once he cast Glibness, the DM didn't even make me roll by bluff checks. Having a +53 to your bluff at level 11 can do that... Charisma has always been the most broken stat in the game. And the bard is the most Charisma focused class in the game. It's just a matter of that everyone's so intent on dealing damage that they forget that you dont need to kill everything to advance. It's more beneficial to get those enemies on your side anyway - imagine how much easier killing the BBEG would be if you had his entire army to face him with. That is what the bard can do.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-28-05, 10:59 AM	The Bard, if done correctly, is horribly, horribly broken. I would like to point out three things: 1 - Fascinate is fought off with a will save. The DC is based off a skill check (Lets say Perform [Fishwaving]). This means that the average DC for fascinate will be 13+Level+CHA+Skill Focus+Item Bonus. At level 20, that's going to be (Assuming a 26 Charisma, and an item of +10 to Perform [Fishwaving], which isn't as high as it could get) 13+20+8+3+10 - DC 44. And that's being nice. Which requires that combat has not occured. This has been a long debate I have been involved in, but you cannot initiate inititve without being in combat. As a 'timing issue' I think the idea is rather dumb, but has the support of the power that be. As such, you must begin a Diplomacy check first, to get your 'opponent' to become non-hostile and get their consent to fascinate them. 2 - A fascinated creature can be given a will save against a suggestion each round it is fascinated (infact, a 18th can make a suggestion against all of the fascinated creatures each round), at a DC of 10+(1/2*Level)+CHA+Ability Focus (+2 to DC of ability...Monster Mash) - assuming the above stats, this will be DC 30. And this can be done once a round - twice if you have Quicken Spell-Like Ability. Requiring Fascinate first, see above. 3 - By taking the feat Supernatural Transformation (Savage Species) you can turn these abilities into supernatural abilities, removing SR. By taking Subsonics (Song and Silence) you can use the ability without people having to see you. It's not the hardest thing in the world to get a DC 40+ ability that ignores SR and turns someone/thing into a puppet for you to play with. Oh wait, it is - except for the bard. I beleiev Savage Species is 3.0 not 3.5. Don't know any errata for 3.5 if there is any. Then there's the small matter of some nice Bard only spells, like Modify Memory - useful spell, that one. And don't forget Glibness - +30 to your bluff check, and they need a level check to magically detect your lies. Oh, and arcane healing. Bards, my dear sir, are the most broken class in the PHB. They can convince a dwarf he is an elf with minimum hassle - now imagine what that sort of skill can do in a social setting. Seriously. The one Bard I've played, once he cast Glibness, the DM didn't even make me roll by bluff checks. Having a +53 to your bluff at level 11 can do that.. Charisma has always been the most broken stat in the game. And the bard is the most Charisma focused class in the game. It's just a matter of that everyone's so intent on dealing damage that they forget that you dont need to kill everything to advance. It's more beneficial to get those enemies on your side anyway - imagine how much easier killing the BBEG would be if you had his entire army to face him with. That is what the bard can do. The debate isn't how powerful a Bard can be against any intellegent opponent. Currently the debate is against non-intelligent opponents and how the Bard is inferior is combat..
CaoSlayer 10-28-05, 11:12 AM	Seems to be a tradition in these boards that every bard post degenerates into a comparation bard vs cleric or about what can what cant do fascinate... I would be more interested in a comparation rogue vs bard, fighter vs bard, wizard vs bard, sorcerer vs bard, paladin vs bard, barbarian vs bard, monk vs bard or even druid vs bard.
RadicalTaoist 10-28-05, 01:35 PM	Not exactly. Adverage treasure is 36k per encounter. In a party of 4, your share would be 9k. If you faced one encounter a day, you would be blowing your 8 of your 9k share of Canles of Invocation. If you used it daily, and only faced one envounter every 2 day, you would be at a loss. This doesn't even get into time (if you craft them yourself), or availability (if you purchase them). Out of curiosity, are you familiar with the table in the DMG on average character wealth by level? 17th level is 340,000 gold in treasure and items is what's you're expected to be working with. Sorry, my error on Divine Power. I have a Belt of Str +6 so ignore the enhancement bonus. Yes, you can have a Righteous Might in effect as well. As a Bard, I can have Arcane Strike by 9th level. While you could have Divine Power Persistant by the time you get 7th level (using all your feats if you were human), you would not have them means to have a Bead of Karma/Candle of Invocation. In this manner, you would still be vulnerable to Dispel effects. This is true. At 9th level, how many levels of spell slots do you have to spend on Arcane Strike? 15 spell levels a day assuming you cast nothing but 0-level spells. It's a great feat, yes, but you can run out. Forsaking treasure? What kind of Bards do you see played? Diplomacy check to make friends. Hang out and chat. Perform for your new friend. Use Suggestion/Charm to have your friend give you treasure (you are moving to a safer spot, for example), or have your new ally go with you and fight. If he gets killed, strip the body at that point. Fascinate (when performed) gives a penalty to SLeight of Hand checks. I haven't even started with Improved Invisibility and SIlence. Apparently I see Bards played in games where there are stronger restrictions on what skills can and can't do, and where greedy Red Dragons (with blindsight, mind you) never give their treasure away, ever. It's a moot point since a Bard can just Perform as much as he likes for gold and then buy stuff. Maybe you can use Diplomacy to convince the Red Dragon to sell you stuff from their hoarde. Intellegent creatures can be talked out of their treasure. Non-intellegent creatures don't care about treasure, so you won't have to worry about them chasing you down to get it back. You just have to worry about them killing you. Ironskin Chant gives DR. The DR from Righteous Might is not unpenetrable. With a Good Dex score, light armor (mithril especially) can have a higher AC than with Dex than Full Plate (+4 chain shirt +7 dex modifier for total of 11 versus +8 for Full Plate +1 for Dex = 9. Mithril Full plate is more expensive than a chain shirt so let's not compare that.) As far as HP and out healing, with my bard having extra feats, Improved Toughness makes the adverage HP between the cleric and Bard equal. ALso, with the extra feats, I can take Combat Expertise to increase my AC further. Ironskin Chant costs a feat, lasts one round per bardic music use. You have lots of bardic music, but it does run out. The DR from Ironskin Chant is likewise penetrable. Mithral Fullplate is an option, and considering the cleric can save money by using Magic Vestment rather than having it enchanted all the way, advantage Cleric except in mobility (Mithral chainshirt has Max Dex of +6 BTW). Divine Power gives the benefits of Improved Toughness on it's own in temp HP, Righteous Might increases Con (and stacks with enhancement bonuses). Righteous Might would cause an AC loss if it didn't grant an enhancement bonus to Nat Armor too. Combat Expertise forces you to choose between your to hit and AC, and is another feat. A Cleric doesn't need to choose between the two. (psst, I recommend Snowflake Wardance to boost your bard's attack bonus in melee; you can find it in Frostburn. It burns more bardic music uses though) Although a Bard cannot out heal a cleric, most healing issues are not a factor if played correctly. The basic part is a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. If you have the time to stand and cast without being attacks, a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a very efficient method of boucing back. Otherwise, no one would doubt that a Cleric can out heal anyone. They have more spells per day than the Bard and the Heal spell alone is far superior to what the Bard can cast. The Bard is a support healer only. That said, at lower levels, the Bard is capable of healing himself. Well, between combat healing is redundant. Hell, the wizard can take care of that by Minor Creationing thousands of hitpoints of healing in healing salves. The only important healing is temp HP buffers and rapid in combat healing, either by fast healing (from Vigor spells, see Complete Divine) or lots of healing at once for emergencies (see Heal). Other than that, you need status heals and repair (Restoration, Lesser Restoration, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Remove Paralysis, Freedom of Movement, etc.). Advantage Cleric, to such a degree he holds almost all the other classes in the game hostage in this regard (a major problem I have with the class). I have already explained how to get around the treasure issue. Heighten Sanctuary is a good example (but don't ignore the fact you have used up many of your feats, and you will be using a high level spell slot). Diplomacy may stop a fight, but won't get you the treasure like the Bard can. Command only lasts one round. I have the high level spell slots to spare. Diplomacy and Sanctuary and Command gives me the jump, if I have the jump I kill them before they can react. Then I take their treasure. Two words, Vorpal Sword. Hard to kick ass if you don't have a head. Very specific and a problem for everyone. There are ways to deal with outsiders. What mindless foe is so overpowering against a Bard? With Arcane Strike, a Bard can kill an opponent (without preparation) in about 3 rounds in melee. Can he? Can he not get killed back? Can he do this on a regular basis and not run out of spells, especially considering he needs Improved Invisibility and Blink for defense and Haste to increase his offensive strength and Otto's Irresistable Dance because that spell's just wonderful? Can he handle negative levels? Can he avoid getting eaten? There are monsters out there a Barbarian cannot go toe to toe with unless they are Polymorphed into a Giant of some sort. Certainly a cleric has advantages, but situations are just that. I could mention facing an ooze. The Cleric could cast Heightened Sanctuary or Flame Strike. The Bard would have to use Shout or Shadow Evocation (or use a device). Although I acknowledge the cleric could have an advanatge (if prepared in advance), when it came to melee the bard would have the advanatage. In the above case of oozes, oozes are slow and have low AC, so a Bard could take the time to buff himself by moving away and casting (especially if you started with Haste). In cases where the Bard took Combat Expertise, a 17th level bard can raise his AC +1 Haste +4 Inspire Heroics +5 Combat Expertise. This doesn't include Blink/Improved Blink to have a 50% miss chance. The Bard can get aound the need for healing by not taking damage in the first place. It's a different use of resources, but can be just as effective. It's just as effective, but the Bard has less of them. In the case of an Ooze, with crappy Will save and low touch AC, a cleric can Plane Shift it to the Negative Energy plane and be on his merry way. One spell. Or the Heightened Sanctuary. Or the Cleric can Air Walk over. Or trap/bypass it with Stone Shape. A cleric has plenty of options, and the spell slots to use them. This is a generic statement. Any class can go on their own, all day if they face a limited amount or no encounters. Based on the description in the DMG, an adverage party should be able to face 4 encounter per day using 80% of their resources. It also states that at higher levels, this becomes less accurate. Assuming adverages, that means a single PC should be able to face one encounter per day (probably 2 by the higher levels) using 80% of their resources. That said, going 'all day' would probably infer about 8 encounters of the same CR. The game is balanced to 3-4 encounters of CR equal to or 1 higher than the effective party level. If you try to run, say, a Psion with no party support through more than 2 encounters of equal CR and they're not within 20 minutes of eachother, he runs a serious risk of running dry. So does your Bard, except that he has skills that may not always work but never run out of uses. 8 encounters a day for a Cleric solo is entirely possible. Do as you like. I brought out the point since you have made generic statements without much to support it. Yay! I love taking my CO madness out onto other boards.:w00t! The weakest arguement would have is on damage output. I will debate this and provide counter arguements as long as I believe I am correct (unless my computer blows up. :) ). As a fellow diehard arguing nerd to another, I must thank you and say I would expect nothing less.:D If you did want such a 'creation debate', I would recommend a single character build at 6th, 12th, and 18th level using adverage treasure and whatever point buy (since die roll campaigns radically alter the equivalent point buy; a die roll for stats could easily overtake a 28 point buy). If you take an item creation feat, you pay 70% of the actual costs from your total treasure. Fair enough. I'm going to create 3 builds at each of these levels though: one core-only, one core+Completes, one everything WotC that I can get my hands on (no third party material). This aims to prove two things: 1) The Core Cleric is more overpowered (by my definition) than the Core Bard. 2) Supplements give more power to the Cleric than the Bard. The down side of thios type of debate is twofold. First, a cleric's spells change daily so you must provide an 'adverage' selection of spells. Second, without a foe to face, the static test proves little. On the idea of 8 encounters per day (at the highest level), would probably only be 4 at 12th level and 2 at 6th level. Which encounters would they be? Undead are an advantage for the Cleric while Intellegent foes are an advantage for the Bard. How many encounters are truly only going to be made up by unintelligent creatures/golems/oozes anyways? I'll supply sample spell selection. 4 at 12 and 2 at 6th sounds fine. To be fair, let's include a combination of enemies for encounters. Like, say, a necromancer (vulnerable to your Bard) with his undead minions. Or a giant working with some monstrous vermin. Etc. etc. The only examples I have been looking for is how much damage output per round can you provide and how did you come to that determination. As far as I can tell, the ouput is 1d8 (mace/morningstar) + 4 or 5 from str (enhanced) +2 to 5 from enhancemnt (greater magic weapon) and +2-5 from Divine favor (plus righteous might and divine power when applicable, as I have already included the str bonus above for divine power). From what I can see, that adverage to about 16 points of damage per hit about half from my damage output in melee. Hit point damage is wonderful and reliable. Remember Righteous Might increases the size and thus damage of my weapon. Take a Club instead (which is wooden) and add the Spikes spell from Complete Divine for +1 damage per caster level (max +10) with an hourly duration. Since I don't need to enchant my weapon with enhancement bonuses, I'll get some of the elemental damage enhancements instead. Hell, there's a spell that makes my weapon flaming I believe. At 18th level, expect 33 average damage per hit easily.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-28-05, 04:27 PM	Out of curiosity, are you familiar with the table in the DMG on average character wealth by level? 17th level is 340,000 gold in treasure and items is what's you're expected to be working with. Are you stating that instead of Full Plate +5 with Heavy Fortification, Shield +5, Ring of Protection +5, Cloak of resistance +5, etc........instead of your wealth being divested in permanent items, you are instead invested in Candles of Invocation? I mean, if 10 Candles are what you prefer, I can think of a better way to spend that 84k. (I too can reply with sacrasm. :) ) This is true. At 9th level, how many levels of spell slots do you have to spend on Arcane Strike? 15 spell levels a day assuming you cast nothing but 0-level spells. It's a great feat, yes, but you can run out. Agreed. At nineth level I prefer Good Hope to be active than using it on Arcane Strike, but that dopesn't mean I can burn 2nd or first level spells to it. But after 9th level, it is very likely I will use Arcane Strike. Apparently I see Bards played in games where there are stronger restrictions on what skills can and can't do, and where greedy Red Dragons (with blindsight, mind you) never give their treasure away, ever. It's a moot point since a Bard can just Perform as much as he likes for gold and then buy stuff. Maybe you can use Diplomacy to convince the Red Dragon to sell you stuff from their hoarde. Or bluff the red Dragon into fleeing. Or, as a radical idea, kill the red dragon. if only every encounter was against Red Dragons. I could only hope. This is again the idea of an example being turned into the likely scenario. But since you can't see that most creatures don't have blindsense, instead I will point out that blindsense has a limited range. If a dragon's horde is sizable, I am certain there MAY be some treasure outside of his range. Truthfully, it may not be. The dragon could leave to go out looking (and I instead use Invisibility at a farther distance than his blindsense, as radical an idea that is) for more treasure or food. Then I could go in and take that treasure. Discresion is the better part of valor. You just have to worry about them killing you. Although that is always a possibility, I am quite secure in what I can do with my Bard. Ironskin Chant costs a feat, lasts one round per bardic music use. You have lots of bardic music, but it does run out. The DR from Ironskin Chant is likewise penetrable. It is 5/-. It is not penetratable, it can be overcome with more damage, unless you are referring that spells can overcome it. That is obvious since it is DR, not energy resistance. Mithral Fullplate is an option, and considering the cleric can save money by using Magic Vestment rather than having it enchanted all the way, advantage Cleric except in mobility (Mithral chainshirt has Max Dex of +6 BTW). Again making you vulnerable to Dispel Magic. (You are correct about the Max Dex, sorry. I was incorrect.) Divine Power gives the benefits of Improved Toughness on it's own in temp HP, Righteous Might increases Con (and stacks with enhancement bonuses). Righteous Might would cause an AC loss if it didn't grant an enhancement bonus to Nat Armor too. Combat Expertise forces you to choose between your to hit and AC, and is another feat. A Cleric doesn't need to choose between the two. Doesn't need to? Unable to is more liklely since he has spent half his feats in a one to two use of Persistant spell with divine Metamagic. (psst, I recommend Snowflake Wardance to boost your bard's attack bonus in melee; you can find it in Frostburn. It burns more bardic music uses though) Thought of it, but the fatigue wasn't worth it in my opinion. Well, between combat healing is redundant. Hell, the wizard can take care of that by Minor Creationing thousands of hitpoints of healing in healing salves. The only important healing is temp HP buffers and rapid in combat healing, either by fast healing (from Vigor spells, see Complete Divine) or lots of healing at once for emergencies (see Heal). Other than that, you need status heals and repair (Restoration, Lesser Restoration, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Remove Paralysis, Freedom of Movement, etc.). Advantage Cleric, to such a degree he holds almost all the other classes in the game hostage in this regard (a major problem I have with the class). Ok, temp hp buffers. Greater Heroism, Heroic Feast and Inspire Greatness. Inspire Greatness is my favorite since it gives +2 to hit, +1 to Fort save, and +2d10 +conx2 temp hp. Get's better when you add it to a 3 of your friends as well. I am still not debating the cleric is the best at healing. We agree in that regard. I have the high level spell slots to spare. Diplomacy and Sanctuary and Command gives me the jump, if I have the jump I kill them before they can react. Then I take their treasure. I use a different means to get the jump, it's called surprise. With a heighten Sanctuary/Command, you usually have a 50% chance of failure. I mean, if I am going to use a 5th level spell (for example), I think Plane Shift an opponent into the Elemental Plane of Water is more likely than a Heightened Sanctuary. Why would you delay a combat rather than use a Heighten save or die spell? Why risk yourself in combat in that manner? Very specific and a problem for everyone. There are ways to deal with outsiders. You arguement was the 5 attacks against you wasn't a threat. It is and always will be unless you have Fortification. Can he? Can he not get killed back? Can he do this on a regular basis and not run out of spells, especially considering he needs Improved Invisibility and Blink for defense and Haste to increase his offensive strength and Otto's Irresistable Dance because that spell's just wonderful? Can he handle negative levels? Can he avoid getting eaten? There are monsters out there a Barbarian cannot go toe to toe with unless they are Polymorphed into a Giant of some sort. If I need to use my spells, I will and I can. (I don;t use Otto's since save or die spells are of a lower DC for the CR rating than the design. A 9th level Cleric/Wizard spell is 3 points higher in DC, so I see no point in competing in the arena where I am 15% less chance of success.) I handle getting eaten with a Ring of Freedom of Movement. The spell could also work (since it is on the spell list), or Dimension Door (since verbal spells are easier to cast than any other while grappled). Thank all that is Good that I am a Bard rather than a Barbarian. Sounds like I wouldn't have much a shot as one of those (because a Barbarian with Power Attack, Leap Attack while Enlarged/under Heroism/buffed by a Bard/Raged/Hasted using a two handed sword would only deal about 60 points of damage with one attack without a critical). It's just as effective, but the Bard has less of them. In the case of an Ooze, with crappy Will save and low touch AC, a cleric can Plane Shift it to the Negative Energy plane and be on his merry way. One spell. Or the Heightened Sanctuary. Or the Cleric can Air Walk over. Or trap/bypass it with Stone Shape. And the Bard can Charm Monster. Big deal. I never said that a cleric can't deal with threats. I find that their ability to use save or die spells is much more effective than wading into melee. You seem to think a melee Cleric is powerful. I think the feats you are referring to are a waste of time. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetraion, Greater spell Penetration would do the Cleric better since they possess a great nuimber of save or die spells. Seems a much better plan than a 24 Divine Power. This does make them deepndant on their spells, and when they run out what will they do? Who cares? No class should be alone. Can be, sure. Should be, no. A cleric is much better in a support role (much like a bard) than to be in melee. Just like a Rogue should be in a front line role, despite the fact they have weaker armor and HP than a fighter class. A cleric has plenty of options, and the spell slots to use them. As our current cleric has stated, you only have as many options as the choices you make that morning. The game is balanced to 3-4 encounters of CR equal to or 1 higher than the effective party level. If you try to run, say, a Psion with no party support through more than 2 encounters of equal CR and they're not within 20 minutes of eachother, he runs a serious risk of running dry. So does your Bard, except that he has skills that may not always work but never run out of uses. I think you are overstating when the Bard will 'run dry'. In my experience (which may mean little to you, but I am the one playing the Bard), I can last 8-9 encounters before running dry. That is also part of a group. I use most of my spells to cast long duration spells (Alter self is 10 min/level to get +6 to Natural Armor as a troglyte. Snowsong lasts 10 min/level, Good Hope lasts 1 min per level). Any spell 3rd lever or lower I will use my Lesser Rod of Extend (a 3k investment for each one) if it has such a long duration. Once (and only once) we had a extended Haste on us and went through 8 encounters with it (24 rounds of Haste with no encounter lasting more than 3 rounds). That was one time I ran dry, but only the fighter and myself could deal any damage to our opponents. 8 encounters a day for a Cleric solo is entirely possible. At what level? And I could also state that Rangers and Rogues could do that as well. I feel confident that I could. Yay! I love taking my CO madness out onto other boards.:w00t! Hee hee. As a fellow diehard arguing nerd to another, I must thank you and say I would expect nothing less.:D Maybe we will find some common sense. Doubtful. Neither of has the Wisdom to do so. :) Fair enough. I'm going to create 3 builds at each of these levels though: one core-only, one core+Completes, one everything WotC that I can get my hands on (no third party material). This aims to prove two things: 1) The Core Cleric is more overpowered (by my definition) than the Core Bard. 2) Supplements give more power to the Cleric than the Bard. Does this include errata? Overall, I would agree with the first statement and not the second. I'll supply sample spell selection. 4 at 12 and 2 at 6th sounds fine. To be fair, let's include a combination of enemies for encounters. Like, say, a necromancer (vulnerable to your Bard) with his undead minions. Or a giant working with some monstrous vermin. Etc. etc. If you want a sampling of opponents (Dear God, why did I suggest this?), I cna easily think of 13 types. The obvious is by type (undead, outsider, vermin), but most encounters should be based on the rule of 4. Combat, Spell, Trap, and Skill. Not every encounter is a mono fight with a being. A trip into a volcano is just as threatening. If you just want creature fights, than the rule of 4 should be based on vulnerable creature, immune creature, group, and spellcaster. For example, a cleric facing an undead, a golem, a group of ogre barbarians, and a wizard. Hit point damage is wonderful and reliable. Remember Righteous Might increases the size and thus damage of my weapon. Take a Club instead (which is wooden) and add the Spikes spell from Complete Divine for +1 damage per caster level (max +10) with an hourly duration. Since I don't need to enchant my weapon with enhancement bonuses, I'll get some of the elemental damage enhancements instead. Hell, there's a spell that makes my weapon flaming I believe. At 18th level, expect 33 average damage per hit easily. Can't wait to see it all in action.
RadicalTaoist 10-28-05, 05:33 PM	Are you stating that instead of Full Plate +5 with Heavy Fortification, Shield +5, Ring of Protection +5, Cloak of resistance +5, etc........instead of your wealth being divested in permanent items, you are instead invested in Candles of Invocation? I mean, if 10 Candles are what you prefer, I can think of a better way to spend that 84k. (I too can reply with sacrasm. :) ) You thought I was going to go crazy on them? My bad - I can see how reading my post could have led to that (and sarcasm is good). Anyway, seeing as I only need a +1 Mithral Fullplate of Heavy Fortification and no Cloak of Resistance (my Magic Vestment and Superior Resistance spells will pack a higher caster level anways). Agreed. At nineth level I prefer Good Hope to be active than using it on Arcane Strike, but that dopesn't mean I can burn 2nd or first level spells to it. But after 9th level, it is very likely I will use Arcane Strike. You should use it - it's a lovely feat. I'm just doubting that when you go solo, you can afford to use it time after time. Or bluff the red Dragon into fleeing. Or, as a radical idea, kill the red dragon. if only every encounter was against Red Dragons. I could only hope. This is again the idea of an example being turned into the likely scenario. But since you can't see that most creatures don't have blindsense, instead I will point out that blindsense has a limited range. If a dragon's horde is sizable, I am certain there MAY be some treasure outside of his range. Truthfully, it may not be. The dragon could leave to go out looking (and I instead use Invisibility at a farther distance than his blindsense, as radical an idea that is) for more treasure or food. Then I could go in and take that treasure. Discresion is the better part of valor. I've yet to see a Dragon bluffed into fleeing. I figured they'd take as much as they could with them... It is 5/-. It is not penetratable, it can be overcome with more damage, unless you are referring that spells can overcome it. That is obvious since it is DR, not energy resistance. My bad, thought it was /adamantine. Hmm, I wonder if I ought to take a domain granting Stoneskin... Again making you vulnerable to Dispel Magic. I fear Dispels only before I get that Ioun Stone and Beads of Karma. Low-level combat clerics do fear possible dispels. Low-level bards fear Silence. Doesn't need to? Unable to is more liklely since he has spent half his feats in a one to two use of Persistant spell with divine Metamagic. Fair enough, he's unable to possibly exchange something he has enough of in exchange for something he also has enough of. Thought of it, but the fatigue wasn't worth it in my opinion. You sure? You can have a lot of ranks in Perform (Dance) for a nice duration, and worst comes to worst, isn't Remove Fatigue on the Bard spell list? Ok, temp hp buffers. Greater Heroism, Heroic Feast and Inspire Greatness. Inspire Greatness is my favorite since it gives +2 to hit, +1 to Fort save, and +2d10 +conx2 temp hp. Get's better when you add it to a 3 of your friends as well. I am still not debating the cleric is the best at healing. We agree in that regard. Good for the bard. I'd note that those are all morale bonuses (same as Inspire Courage) and the Cleric gets Hero's Feast too, 5 levels earlier too. Inspire Greatness is awesome though, no doubt, and is competence rather than morale bonus too. I use a different means to get the jump, it's called surprise. With a heighten Sanctuary/Command, you usually have a 50% chance of failure. I mean, if I am going to use a 5th level spell (for example), I think Plane Shift an opponent into the Elemental Plane of Water is more likely than a Heightened Sanctuary. Why would you delay a combat rather than use a Heighten save or die spell? Why risk yourself in combat in that manner? Only if I need to. Most of the time I will not. You arguement was the 5 attacks against you wasn't a threat. It is and always will be unless you have Fortification. Which I can afford. I'm not seeing how it's more of a threat to a cleric than a bard though. :confused: If I need to use my spells, I will and I can. (I don;t use Otto's since save or die spells are of a lower DC for the CR rating than the design. A 9th level Cleric/Wizard spell is 3 points higher in DC, so I see no point in competing in the arena where I am 15% less chance of success.) Dude! OID has no save! SR is the only thing keeping your foes from dancing around like idiots! That's one of the best spells on the Bard list. I handle getting eaten with a Ring of Freedom of Movement. The spell could also work (since it is on the spell list), or Dimension Door (since verbal spells are easier to cast than any other while grappled). Are we spending money? Or casting spells the Cleric gets sooner? Thank all that is Good that I am a Bard rather than a Barbarian. Sounds like I wouldn't have much a shot as one of those (because a Barbarian with Power Attack, Leap Attack while Enlarged/under Heroism/buffed by a Bard/Raged/Hasted using a two handed sword would only deal about 60 points of damage with one attack without a critical).That sounds like a Bard doing strong party support, not overpowered at all. Good for him. Barbs need Bards. And the Bard can Charm Monster. Big deal. I never said that a cleric can't deal with threats. I find that their ability to use save or die spells is much more effective than wading into melee. You seem to think a melee Cleric is powerful. I think the feats you are referring to are a waste of time. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetraion, Greater spell Penetration would do the Cleric better since they possess a great nuimber of save or die spells. Seems a much better plan than a 24 Divine Power. This does make them deepndant on their spells, and when they run out what will they do? Who cares? No class should be alone. Can be, sure. Should be, no. A cleric is much better in a support role (much like a bard) than to be in melee. Just like a Rogue should be in a front line role, despite the fact they have weaker armor and HP than a fighter class. Oh yes, Clerics are natty with the Save or Dies. I especially love Destruction. Not saying they aren't. And I have BOTH. But to clarify: I already have mad CL. Beads of Karma, possibly Divine Spell Power (but this leads to the Holy Word cheesing cleric who is less flexible and only comes into his own later than a combat cleric). GSF is two feats for +2 bonus.:bored: I'll find other ways to boost the DCs, preferably dropping save penalties on foes. As our current cleric has stated, you only have as many options as the choices you make that morning. But of course. I like how Cleric gets every spell that is on their spell list in any book to choose from. I think you are overstating when the Bard will 'run dry'. In my experience (which may mean little to you, but I am the one playing the Bard), I can last 8-9 encounters before running dry. That is also part of a group. I use most of my spells to cast long duration spells (Alter self is 10 min/level to get +6 to Natural Armor as a troglyte. Snowsong lasts 10 min/level, Good Hope lasts 1 min per level). Any spell 3rd lever or lower I will use my Lesser Rod of Extend (a 3k investment for each one) if it has such a long duration. Once (and only once) we had a extended Haste on us and went through 8 encounters with it (24 rounds of Haste with no encounter lasting more than 3 rounds). That was one time I ran dry, but only the fighter and myself could deal any damage to our opponents. This is all as a group. I've already stated that your party has done quite good against CR 17 (they are CR 17 right?) encounters through teamwork. (P.S. the new NA form for Alter Self is the Blackscale Lizardfolk - same effective AC with Large and +7 NA, but nicer natural attacks). At what level? And I could also state that Rangers and Rogues could do that as well. I feel confident that I could. Well, sneak past everything and steal everything I suppose. I've built characters that could do that. That's nice, but it's only one trick. Maybe we will find some common sense. Doubtful. Neither of has the Wisdom to do so. :) Serves me right for going after Staffs instead of the Tome of Clear Thought... Does this include errata? Overall, I would agree with the first statement and not the second. ? This we can argue separately too. What do you feel, say, the Completes gives Bards in excess of what they give Clerics? If you want a sampling of opponents (Dear God, why did I suggest this?), I cna easily think of 13 types. The obvious is by type (undead, outsider, vermin), but most encounters should be based on the rule of 4. Combat, Spell, Trap, and Skill. Not every encounter is a mono fight with a being. A trip into a volcano is just as threatening. If you just want creature fights, than the rule of 4 should be based on vulnerable creature, immune creature, group, and spellcaster. For example, a cleric facing an undead, a golem, a group of ogre barbarians, and a wizard. Considering that both bard and cleric are likely to use Summon Monster I to 'trapfind' (although each has spells that allow them to pull trapfinding off pretty will), I'm not sure if Trap encounters are going to do much unless they are in conjunction with a monster. We can combine here (vulnerable single big Combat, invulnerable group, spellcaster, skill-using monster, monster/trap combo, invulnerable single big combat, vulnerable group, group of spellcasters) to get eight very different encounters that test a wide variety of abilities.
Welcome 10-28-05, 06:36 PM	Not to step in this wonderful debate, but someone mentioned that Polymorphing into a smaller or larger creature made you lose the benefit of your magic items. Not quite : Size And Magic Items When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
Nephlite 10-28-05, 08:18 PM	I fear Dispels only before I get that Ioun Stone and Beads of Karma. Low-level combat clerics do fear possible dispels. Low-level bards fear Silence. Only in Core, in supplements (even as far back as Song and Silence 3.0) was a bard spell that allowed people in party to cast in silence (the exception spell to all bards spells need a verbal component). I think it was called: 1st level bard spell: Joyful Noise. So, Silence isn't so much a problem as an obstacle to overcome. Reprinted in Complete Adventurer, but seems to be be best for a party with 2 bards (once to cast this and concentrate so other can cast spells). Guess, it is mostly a support song than a silence nullifyer.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 10-29-05, 10:40 AM	You thought I was going to go crazy on them? My bad - I can see how reading my post could have led to that (and sarcasm is good). Anyway, seeing as I only need a +1 Mithral Fullplate of Heavy Fortification and no Cloak of Resistance (my Magic Vestment and Superior Resistance spells will pack a higher caster level anways). This is very campaign dependant. 'Magic stores' aren't always available. Either way, Heavy Fortification wouldn't be availble in most cases until the highest levels (as a +6 equivalent magic item). I have seen DM's restrict cheap items with a High pre-requisite (I beleive the pre-requisite is Miracle for cleric). I fear Dispels only before I get that Ioun Stone and Beads of Karma. Low-level combat clerics do fear possible dispels. Low-level bards fear Silence. Fear is a strong word. If cast as an area effect, you can move out of it. If cast on the Bard, he can still interact in combat. If he has spells /effects already on him, the silence doesn't cancel them (Bardic music effects usually last 5 rounds after performing stopped). Fair enough, he's unable to possibly exchange something he has enough of in exchange for something he also has enough of. The debate on this part continues. :) As mentioned earlier, if you burn through all you have for a one trick ability, you have little left to overcome any weakness of the character/class. In the case of divine Metamagic, all those turn attempts will unltimately leave you without them to use on Undead. So while buffing yourself for melee in the later levels, you are weakening yourself against 'easy' undead encounters. Again, this is dependant on how many turn attempts you see yourself having, and how many feats you will pump into Extra Turning. You sure? You can have a lot of ranks in Perform (Dance) for a nice duration, and worst comes to worst, isn't Remove Fatigue on the Bard spell list? Yes, but Lesser restoration (the spell that removes fatigue) takes 3 rounds to cast. Since I had dedicated my character to Singing, not Dancing it wasn't worth it to my character. Overall, it is a nice feat, but danagerous to have at low levels. At moderate levels, you gain access to some noce feats, so finding a place for it become interesting. 3rd level is proably the only spot for it. Good for the bard. I'd note that those are all morale bonuses (same as Inspire Courage) and the Cleric gets Hero's Feast too, 5 levels earlier too. Inspire Greatness is awesome though, no doubt, and is competence rather than morale bonus too. Temporary HP are not a morale bonus. The other effects are, but I was referring to the Temp HP. If we were discussing attack bonuses, you are correct. They are morale bonuses. Only if I need to. Most of the time I will not. This is where are strong disagree. Surprise is devestation to the Bard and Cleric. We can both recover, but when you are focused on healing instead of attacking, you are on the losing side of a battle. The Balor example shows how bad it can be. Which I can afford. I'm not seeing how it's more of a threat to a cleric than a bard though. :confused: If you go back and look at past posts (even the post just above this one), it is you who is making references that being attacked during surprise is no big deal. I agree the threat is devestating to both characters, but I was not the one stating it wasn't a threat at all. That is why I am pointing out you are incorrect and siting examples why. Dude! OID has no save! SR is the only thing keeping your foes from dancing around like idiots! That's one of the best spells on the Bard list. Your opinion. Oh yes, Clerics are natty with the Save or Dies. I especially love Destruction. Not saying they aren't. And I have BOTH. But to clarify: I already have mad CL. Beads of Karma, possibly Divine Spell Power (but this leads to the Holy Word cheesing cleric who is less flexible and only comes into his own later than a combat cleric). GSF is two feats for +2 bonus.:bored: I'll find other ways to boost the DCs, preferably dropping save penalties on foes. You are complaining about the use of two feats when you will drop 4 feats to use Divine Metamagic. That's interesting. But of course. I like how Cleric gets every spell that is on their spell list in any book to choose from. A prepared cleric that uses divination magic can have a wonderful set of spells. I agree that the cleric spell set is very nice. Has offense and defense. This is all as a group. I've already stated that your party has done quite good against CR 17 (they are CR 17 right?) encounters through teamwork. (P.S. the new NA form for Alter Self is the Blackscale Lizardfolk - same effective AC with Large and +7 NA, but nicer natural attacks). Almost all are. Well, sneak past everything and steal everything I suppose. I've built characters that could do that. That's nice, but it's only one trick. It is, but Rogues, Rangers, and Bards can do more than one trick. ? This we can argue separately too. What do you feel, say, the Completes gives Bards in excess of what they give Clerics? In the Core books, the Cleric were meant to survive so they may heal the party. That way bad breaks (such as being surprised) would have less impact when a party is facing the same CR rating. The Bard was menat to socially dominate over opponents with the potential to turn enemies into allies. Both are powerful effects, but the value of any ability is highly dependant on if it can be used in a campaign. The example I give is Countersong. Overall, the ability is worthless. It is dependant on your opponent using a specific spell or spell-like ability type. When it was used in the campaign I am in (against Wail of the Banshee), it was a party saver. Until then, it was a footnote on the page. The versatility of the Cleric is they have a large spell list and they can change their spells daily. The Bard has a high skill list and spells that can supliment their skills (to make them even more useful). The overt power of the cleric is quite obvious. The subtle power of the bard is not. Example: A Cleric could target a Fort save of the Bard and one shot kill him. The Bard can Grease his Holy Symbol so the Cleric will not be able to have a physical component to cast his spells. Neutralizing a threat is less threatening. It is also very powerful. If someone said they own a tank and can defeat anyone who comes by, they would probably be right. If the person threatened comes by the night before hand and welds the tank hatches shut, they braggart cannot make his threat a reality. Who won? While a Bard may be able to talk a Balor into being his new best friend, would he want to do that for any peroid of time? Balor's are evil. :) But that strength of a Bard to turn an enemy into a friend is very significant. Encounters that do not give the bard a chance to gather up encounter fodder make the bard a weaker class. Same could be said for any class when you make them only face encounters that do not use any of their abilities. How good would a fighter be without combat, or a Druid on the Negative Elemental Plane? After all that said, the Completes have provided 'outs' for classes to delve into area without multiclassing. It allows an opportunity to face an opponent with an ability to cover up their weakness. Aracne Strike is my common example. With it, it can deal lots of damage to foes that usually won't take much (like Golems and Elementals). Overall, it isn't much different than Power Attack in that regard, but Power Attack is for high BAB characters. The Bard is a medium BAB character. As such, this takes a weakness and turns it into a strength (who wants a lot of spells that will do nothing in an encounter?). The complete series has make the Turning attempts of the Paladin useful for something, the low amount of Rages the Barbarian gets to be increased, the Rogue can get skills and abilites to be dex based (as well as increase inititive), Clerics can increase their healing further or find a way to increase their damage output, Wizards get more versatile spells, etc..... The mathmatics people use to determine over/under powered usually has nothing to do with what the DMG references, a party should use 80% of it's resources after 4 encounters of the same CR rating. That said, the real test (in my opinion) is when you get 4 characters (of the same class) facing varies CR challenges. Instead, most people want to reduce the party into individual classes. Then state this individual class is powerful because they can overcome challenges alone. Then when you agrue that Challenges are situational dependant, everything goes out the window. When starting with the Volcano challenge, the clerics may be able to overcome it with Resist Energy or heal the damage taken, while the Bards would have to cast Haste to move faster to get to the objective and return (using healing after the fact). Both would overcome the Challenge, but the Lcerics would be better equiped to handle it because resist energy is a class spell, but if they didn't take it it could still be overcome. Now, what if the entire inside of the volcano was partially liquified and you had to make balance/reflex checks to actually get down to the bottem without falling off the side? The Bard would have a skill list that would help him more, but the real help would be the higher reflex save. Now the chalenge is an equal threat to both classes. The Bard cannot avoid the heat damage, but can get down safely with more reliability. The clerics can take their time to avoid damage, but risk falling by making more balance checks to get down. The arguement that the Cleric can Banish the Balor compared to the Bard adding him as an Ally into the party means nothing. In that instance, the cleric would seem 'more powerful' since he single handedly destroyed a Balor. But, in actuality, the Bard doubled his numbers making him a greater threat next encounter. This is where the arguement of who is more powerful becomes very short sighted. Now, how do you rate each ability? When it works, it is a huge advantage. That is easily seen. How often can you make that advantage occur? For the Bard, it is easier than it seems. How likely will it occur that a Bard can find an Intelligent being (such as a city) and find a strong being (Gather Information, Sense Motive) to join him on a quest (Diplomacy)? As a bard, I would rather start with that Challenge first than worry about it once I reach the Cliffs of Insanity where the Hobgoblin King rules with an iron fist. And while the Cleric is Smiting foes, the Bard is creating a rebellion. Golem guard? The cleric must smite that too, while the Bard may have to Dimention Door into the next room after Clairavoyance. My long stated point is overcoming the encounter is all that matters. In my case, to overcome encounters using melee require a lot of use of Arcane Strike. This is true. If I use this method exclusively to overcome foes, the cleric will have more staying power than myself. Considering that both bard and cleric are likely to use Summon Monster I to 'trapfind' (although each has spells that allow them to pull trapfinding off pretty will), I'm not sure if Trap encounters are going to do much unless they are in conjunction with a monster. We can combine here (vulnerable single big Combat, invulnerable group, spellcaster, skill-using monster, monster/trap combo, invulnerable single big combat, vulnerable group, group of spellcasters) to get eight very different encounters that test a wide variety of abilities. This is where you foret one thing, a cleric must chooise his spells prior to an encounter while a Bard pre choses his selection and is stuck with it. SWhile the Cleric MAY have Summon Monster prepared, it isn't likely. With Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, and Sanctuary, as well as Detect Evil, and Detect Undead, SUmmon Monster 1 gets pushed aside. Maybe you would have one spell memorized, but the Bard will have his entire spell slots available to cast Summon Monster 1. This is one of the advantages of spontaneous spell casting. If we are to be fair, the best way would be to post a character each and then the other makes 12 challenges of specific catagories and assigns them one at a time. The only 'advantage' the other would get is that you know you won;t be facing that type of encounter again, rather than knowing what you will be facing in advance and preparing for them. Also, taht leads to anothe rgood issue. With Clerics having Divination Magic and Bards having Gather Information and Knowledge Local, both sides could have some generic information prior to their series 4 encounter set. You starting to see why I was afraid of such a creation?
CaoSlayer 10-31-05, 05:23 AM	Not to step in this wonderful debate, but someone mentioned that Polymorphing into a smaller or larger creature made you lose the benefit of your magic items. Not quite : Funny except from SRD, I missed it, still it is a DM´s call to say if a magical item can or cant be resized, by that RAW, it said nothing about amor (unless you considere armor clothing) and weapons.
Nephlite 10-31-05, 03:06 PM	Funny except from SRD, I missed it, still it is a DM´s call to say if a magical item can or cant be resized, by that RAW, it said nothing about amor (unless you considere armor clothing) and weapons. True, Armor and Weapons are only magical equipment that don't resize. But you an use small versions of weapons (with a penalty). I assume your armor melds with you from the spell.