Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ivellious Galanodel 04-12-05, 08:39 AM	I tried to search this but there seems to be a problem with the board today. Does Mithral medium armor (ie breastplate) count as light armor that a Ranger could wear without loosing any feats? Under the description it states that mithral makes an armor one category lighter for purposes of movement.
quaiven 04-12-05, 08:40 AM	yes
Elthbert 04-12-05, 09:19 AM	thats a tough call, I would say no because movment ( in he D&D sense) is not all that is involved in using the rangers feats, a breastplate is just not " light armour."
Quixon 04-12-05, 09:22 AM	Yes it counts as Light for the feats/abilites(as far as I know), but is still medium armor and requires you to have Medium Armor Prof. to use without penalty.
quaiven 04-12-05, 09:26 AM	Mithral: Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0). An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a scythe cannot be.) Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15. There is no tough call, the answer is yes. Mithral makes the armor one step lighter for all purposes except proficiency. So he can wear it with no loss to class abilities. However if he doesn't have the medium armor proficiency feat he has to apply the armor check penalty to all his attacks, and in this case the armor check penalty for a mithral breastplate would be -1.
Elthbert 04-12-05, 09:50 AM	It doesn't say that at all it says " and other limitations" that can mean anything but if it doesn't change the profecientcy required to use it then it obviously doesn't work like light armour. If it doesn't work like light armour then a rangers abilities which are based on light armour should not work either.
Thorak 04-12-05, 09:55 AM	It doesn't say that at all it says " and other limitations" that can mean anything but if it doesn't change the profecientcy required to use it then it obviously doesn't work like light armour. If it doesn't work like light armour then a rangers abilities which are based on light armour should not work either. Are there "limitations" on the Ranger abilities based on armor? Yes? Then these fall under "other limitations".
Sinon 04-12-05, 09:57 AM	This issue has been hotly debated. You're not going to get a definitive answer. (Actually, you're going to get two definitive answers.) I am of the party that thinks that you still need to have the proficiency. My only reasoning is that if you did not, such proficiencies would be almost meaningless. That is, of course, not a rule. It is just that, for me, a ranger or a rogue who wants to wear a breastplate, overcoming one of their class restrictions, needs to do a bit more than spend a mere 4000 gp to do so. In addition, isn't mithral already a good enough deal? Just the fact that they can use it at all is powerful enough. Take the feat or a dip into fighter.
quaiven 04-12-05, 09:59 AM	By "other limitations" they are referring to class abilities and feats which require a certain "weight" of armor. Mithral armor was basically designed specifically for rangers (and rogues) so they could wear heavier armor without losing their abilities. Elven Chain: This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. Speed while wearing elven chain is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2. It is considered light armor and weighs 20 pounds. No aura (nonmagical); Price 4,150 gp. Mithral Full Plate of Speed: As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds. Speed while wearing a suit of mithral full plate is 20 feet for Medium creatures, or 15 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of –3. It is considered medium armor and weighs 25 pounds. Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price 26,500 gp.
Elthbert 04-12-05, 10:06 AM	Those are both specific items and we all know that specific items do not always follow the general rules. If medium armour proficentcy is still required to use it with out penelty then a ranger cannot use it with his abilities.
Reinforcements 04-12-05, 10:10 AM	The only way I could imagine this being a hotly debated issue is if there are lots of people who don't know how to read. You need the medium armor proficiency, but in all other ways mithral breastplate is considered light armor. It really is that simple.
quaiven 04-12-05, 10:15 AM	Those are both specific items and we all know that specific items do not always follow the general rules. If medium armour proficentcy is still required to use it with out penelty then a ranger cannot use it with his abilities. Yes they are specific armors, but notice that the first one isn't magical it is simply mithral chainmail. A ranger can use it with penalty (Armor Check Penalty -2 applied to all attacks), but his class abilities (TWF) would be unaffected. And read the second paragraph of the full plate, it's not talking about the magical abilities there it is simply describing the effects of being mithral.
Elthbert 04-12-05, 10:50 AM	The only way I could imagine this being a hotly debated issue is if there are lots of people who don't know how to read. You need the medium armor proficiency, but in all other ways mithral breastplate is considered light armor. It really is that simple. Well you see I m sitting here at my librarians desk typing this, so I am pretty sure I know how to read... I simply don't interpret what I am reading in the same way that you do. If it was supposed to work as you say then it would say thatthe armour becomes one catagory lighter, but it does not say that because it is not intended to do so.
quaiven 04-12-05, 11:01 AM	Well you see I m sitting here at my librarians desk typing this, so I am pretty sure I know how to read... I simply don't interpret what I am reading in the same way that you do. If it was supposed to work as you say then it would say thatthe armour becomes one catagory lighter, but it does not say that because it is not intended to do so. So what is it intended to do? What is the point in mithral full plate? (since movement is unaffected) What is the point of any mithral heavy armor? What is the point in mithral chainmail armor when you could get boots of striding and springing to do basically the same thing? In short, play the game by your own rules if you want, but you are totally nerfing mithral armors if you don't allow class abilities to function. Edit: Just realised something... If it was supposed to work as you say then it would say thatthe armour becomes one catagory lighter, It does say exactly that... Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.
Elthbert 04-12-05, 11:18 AM	So what is it intended to do? What is the point in mithral full plate? (since movement is unaffected) What is the point of any mithral heavy armor? What is the point in mithral chainmail armor when you could get boots of striding and springing to do basically the same thing? In short, play the game by your own rules if you want, but you are totally nerfing mithral armors if you don't allow class abilities to function. Edit: Just realised something... It does say exactly that... Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations And that says "for the purposes of..." if it was intended to allow circumvention of class restrictions it would simply say " mithral armours become 1 catarogy lighter." But that is not what it says.
quaiven 04-12-05, 11:27 AM	Semantics. But you didn't answer what is the purpose of mithral heavy armor then?
Elthbert 04-12-05, 11:39 AM	Semantics.? English. Semantics are the way we communicate with otuthem there is no language, no communication nothing, those who imply they are trivial usually do so because they don't like what the semantics of a writen thing actually say. But you didn't answer what is the purpose of mithral heavy armor then? reduced armour check penelties, reduced weight, increased max dex bonus
quaiven 04-12-05, 11:51 AM	Thank you for the English lesson, though perhaps you missed this definition of the word. 3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning b : the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings You are interpreting one sentence in the description of Mithral diferently than everyone else and using it as the basis for your argument. In essence you are argueing semantics.
Sinon 04-12-05, 11:56 AM	The only way I could imagine this being a hotly debated issue is if there are lots of people who don't know how to read. Look at the thread: no imagination required.
Roxlimn 04-12-05, 11:58 AM	And that says "for the purposes of..." if it was intended to allow circumvention of class restrictions it would simply say " mithral armours become 1 catarogy lighter." But that is not what it says. Well, actually, that would be a more confusing way of putting it. Proficiencies are grouped according to armor clasisfication. Saying mithral armors "become one catergory lighter," implies that this is also true for proficiencies as well. "for purposes of movement and other limitations." Clearly mentiones movement, so on that basis alone, we can surmise that mithral armors allow movment as if they were one category armor lighter, making an argument for both normal and Barbarian movement. Moreover, the phrase "and other limitations," presumes that there are other limitations other than movement explicitly related to armor category that being mithral affects. If this were not class limitations, which game mechanic would you think this phrase refers to? The proficiency is required because using armor with penalties because of nonproficiency doesn't seem to be considered a limitation as according to usual game parlance. You certainly aren't "limited" to using certain armors just because you're not proficient.
legowarrior 04-12-05, 11:59 AM	Actually, this isn't so hotly debated as say, powerful build, but in this case, I have to agree with Thorak. It just makes sense.
Nyferto 04-12-05, 12:07 PM	Yeah it's fairly clear cut. Proficiencies are the only thing you have effecting you after wearing it. And the checks would apply as normal for whatever it applies to for non-proficiency (most moving skills and attack roles IIRC).
Thorak 04-12-05, 12:56 PM	And that says "for the purposes of..." if it was intended to allow circumvention of class restrictions it would simply say " mithral armours become 1 catarogy lighter." But that is not what it says. Right. For the purpose of. The purpose of what? Movement and other limitations. Do Rangers have limitations on armor choices? Yes. Ergo, Mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for the purpose of that limitation.
Elthbert 04-12-05, 02:09 PM	Thank you for the English lesson, though perhaps you missed this definition of the word. You are interpreting one sentence in the description of Mithral diferently than everyone else and using it as the basis for your argument. In essence you are argueing semantics. No I know the definition and here are a few for you: Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language. Linguistics. The study of relationships between signs and symbols and what they represent. Also called semasiology. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics. I standby my previous statement.
quaiven 04-12-05, 02:17 PM	Again thanks for the English lesson. Shall we spend the rest of the night defining words for each other. Maybe we should define the word "the". Regardless, I standby my last statement as well you are interpreting one passage in the description differently than everyone else and using it as the basis for your arguement. This is basically the same as saying "dark blue" isn't blue because it's "dark". Look this arguement isn't really that important to me. Play by your rules if that is how you enjoy the game, and I will play by the RAW because that is how I enjoy the game.
Debonair 04-13-05, 10:23 AM	You need Medium armor proficiency to wear a breastplate. No matter what it's made of, the training it takes to wear leather just doesn't help you wear a breastplate. Now if the breastplate is made of something light, like Mithril, it doesn't encumber your movement any more than leather does. If it doesn't encumber you enough to affect your movement, then it shouldn't affect your Evasion, or Ranger TWF, or other similar abilities. However, you still need the training to put it on and move with a plate of metal on your chest.
Kaboth 04-13-05, 10:28 AM	The only way I could imagine this being a hotly debated issue is if there are lots of people who don't know how to read. You need the medium armor proficiency, but in all other ways mithral breastplate is considered light armor. It really is that simple. :clap: :cheer: I agree.
MaverickWolf 04-13-05, 10:36 AM	You need Medium armor proficiency to wear a breastplate. No matter what it's made of, the training it takes to wear leather just doesn't help you wear a breastplate. Now if the breastplate is made of something light, like Mithril, it doesn't encumber your movement any more than leather does. If it doesn't encumber you enough to affect your movement, then it shouldn't affect your Evasion, or Ranger TWF, or other similar abilities. However, you still need the training to put it on and move with a plate of metal on your chest.Well, WotC doesn't agree with you on that. Races of the Wild officially has a chart for armors of various materials mentioned in the book. Mithral is one of these materials (since elves are the most famous users of it). In said chart, mithral breastplate is listed as light armor, and there are no special rules saying it requires medium armor proficiency to use. It's light armor, plain and simple. ((And for the record, mithral full plate is on their as medium armor, etc, etc. - So it's official now. Mithral armors count as one size category less for proficiency purposes also.))
quaiven 04-13-05, 10:39 AM	Again with the notoriously accurate charts.
Pax 04-13-05, 11:11 AM	Here's a revolutionary idea. Bear with me, now, kids ... but ... what about actually cracig open the DMG, instead of relying on the SRD? See, the DMG says, on page 284, emphasis mine: [...] Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations (for example, wether a Barbarian can use her fast movement ability while wearing the armor or not). Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. [...] Does it get any plainer than that ....??
Elthbert 04-13-05, 11:25 AM	Again with the notoriously accurate charts. I am amused. I am also glad to see you aren't taking this too seriously. Now to the other posters. Races of the Wild is a splat book.. really that is enough said. Does it get any plainer than that ....?? Well Yah they could have used any ability that wasn't movement.
Pax 04-13-05, 11:41 AM	Well Yah they could have used any ability that wasn't movement. Well, compare this: Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. ... to this: Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. This choice affects the character’s class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way. If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor. In both cases, emphasis is mine, used to point out the delimiter clauses in each of them. They use nearly identical wording; Barbarian fast movement works in medium armor (while the Ranger combat style doesn't), and Ranger combat styles work while heavily encumbered (which Barbarian fast movement does not). But, the crux of the comparison is this: they use the same basic wording. Their armor-weight-category limitations aren't worded in somemagically-different way.
quaiven 04-13-05, 11:58 AM	I am amused. I am also glad to see you aren't taking this too seriously. Never, it's not worth the aggravation. ;)
NeueRegel 04-13-05, 12:09 PM	OT, but makes a difference, to us. NeueRegel
MaverickWolf 04-13-05, 02:11 PM	Races of the Wild is a 3.5 book. It just came out last month (or was it the month before...don't remember exactly, but it was this year).
Finarin Panjoro 04-13-05, 02:25 PM	Whatever the current splatbook says my feeling (and the way it will continue to work in my campaign) is that mithral breastplate is treated as light armor, but is still medium armor with regards to proficiency. The reason is that non-proficiency is not a penalty. It is the natural order for those who do not possess a particular feat or feats. Proficiency is a bonus. A skilled armor user has an EXTRA ability that Joe Average does not. Mithral doesn't say anything about confering an extra bonus (a proficiency feat) on the wearer. Additionally one should keep in mind that weight is not the only factor in making an armor truly light. So is flexibility and construction. Mithral Breastplate is still less flexible than a chain shirt by the nature of its construction so its reasonable to assume that it requires different training (ie. proficiency) to use it without penalty. The reduced armor check penalty for the weight already makes it easier for the non-proficient user (they take a -1 on attacks rather than a -3) so why would they gain the additional bonus of free proficiency? Until it is worded differently in the DMG, the PHB, a FAQ, or errata thereof this is how I will continue to rule it. Also denying someone the use of a feat is a penalty so mithral medium armors would definitely allow rangers to use their combat style, evasion, etc.
Tony Vargas 04-13-05, 02:47 PM	Also denying someone the use of a feat is a penalty so mithral medium armors would definitely allow rangers to use their combat style, evasion, etc. You mean a limitation - it's a limitation (or a restriction, if you prefer) on the feat, not a penalty, which, in D&D jargon is a detrimental numeric mondifier distinct from a 'reduced bonus...' :rolleyes:
NeueRegel 04-13-05, 03:12 PM	Hey, I just used E-tools to make a 1st lv. Wizard, and a 1st lv. Ranger. I equipped both with 'elven chainmail', and did nothing else (no feats, etc). The program gave the wizard a -2 bab, but did not penalize the ranger. My E-tools is updated to 3.5 So, knowing that E-tools is a "splatprogram", to make up a word, their two-cents worth is that 'elven chain' is considered "light armor", in regards to proficiency, too. Disclaimer: I couldn't care less, my ranger wears bracers of armor. NeueRegel