A Druid cheating (muwahahaha) [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Druid cheating (muwahahaha) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 09:41 PM Ok, if you are a Druid and you got a way to use Alter Self (maybe a potion or a item that can make you cast this spell without a command) and you are wildshaped into a bear, can you use Alter Self to become a human (can talk, and use spells, yadda, yadda, yadda) with the stats of your wild-shaped form? like, 30 str of a Dire Bear?

Thanks,

See you good folk,

Felipe.
Spikes01k
03-27-07, 09:52 PM OMDG, I don't know druids that well, but I think that is just sick if it works... Good thinking! The way it would best work, that I know, is bark skin armor, it lets you use armor even while in wild shape. Just have th ability to go human-oid in the armor.
StalkerEntreri
03-27-07, 10:04 PM The way it would best work, that I know, is bark skin armor, it lets you use armor even while in wild shape.

Or you could just have the wild ability on the armor
Spikes01k
03-27-07, 10:27 PM Or you could just have the wild ability on the armor

I just read Alter Self. A sound GM would stat that the first sentence would eliminate this as a possibility
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.

A GM would state that you could only at this point change into other bears if your Dire Bear.
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 10:41 PM I just read Alter Self. A sound GM would stat that the first sentence would eliminate this as a possibility

A GM would state that you could only at this point change into other bears if your Dire Bear.

When you Wild Shape in any animal you still a humanoid (if you are a human, of course) as descripted in the PhB and in it´s Errata, so a human ("You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself") still a valid choice.
Spikes01k
03-27-07, 10:47 PM When you Wild Shape in any animal you still a humanoid (if you are a human, of course) as descripted in the PhB and in it´s Errata, so a human ("You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself") still a valid choice.

NVM your right
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 10:57 PM NVM?
Spikes01k
03-27-07, 10:59 PM NVM?

I was going to say that your type would change when you wild shape, but it dosn't.
Perseus_Stoned
03-27-07, 11:06 PM NVM?

Nevermind.
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 11:06 PM I was going to say that your type would change when you wild shape, but it dosn't.

Ahhh, ok... yeah, I read a lot before posting, I think that it is too much overpowering a Druid to use this trick, but, by rules, it works. As the PhB errata says, the Wild Shape ability function like Alternate Form (MM) and no matter what form you have changed, you still in your natural type and sub-type, like Dragon, Humanoid, Magical Beast or whatever you are. So, a Dragon that alter his form to a humanoid (most Dragons can assume any humanoid or animal form) still a valid target to spells that only affect Dragon creatures. Maybe anyone that wants to use it could house-rule this and make less overpower, like making the Wild Shaped Druid get in human form but still with the same restrictions that he had while in bear form, so he couldn´t talk and cast spells (he would need the Natural Spell feat for doing so)... but it is completely up to the DM decide what he allow or not.
DorienAenor
03-28-07, 11:47 AM In fact, Wild Shaping in any animal and after using an Alter Self based item allow you to be a human with the strength of a bear. But it is clear that, if your DM allow it, it´s overpowering the Druids ability. But, mechanically it works. I think if your player wants to have a human with the physical strength of an animal using this trick, ok, he can, but we should start looking at some limits to this Wild Shape + Alter Self combo. Maybe you become a bestial version of a human, with some traits of the animal you Wild Shaped into and still a human form (85% human, 15% animal). As you were an animal before casting Alter Self, the DM would say that you still with your animal limits, you can talk, people will understand you, but you don´t have the same ability to talk that you had before Wild Shaping and complex words can´t be spoken, so you can´t cast spells without the Natural Spell feat. Maybe you get -10 on your diplomacy tests and -4 on your Cha stat. After putting some restrictions, all your player will get is prehensile hands and the look of an human instead of claws and a bear greatness.:D
PhaedrusXY
03-28-07, 11:49 AM Brilliant!
crimsonwolf
03-28-07, 01:05 PM noob= brillaint
experince= cant do that
IceFractal
03-28-07, 01:17 PM To the contrary, I find no reason why you can't do that. It's the natural result of all the wildshape errata they've been making - to prevent people from using animal-only buffs, they switch the type and make humanoid-only buffs possible. It's got to be one way or the other.

I don't think it's particularly unbalancing - all a humanoid form gives you is the ability to use gear, which you could mostly do anyway if you had the right kind of gear (amulets, slotless items, bracelets, etc), or a supply of Wilding Clasps (which are 3.5 now, in the MIC). In exchange, you give up being Large and having claw and bite attacks, plus your natural armor.

So, not a big power-up, but it's excellent for surprise attacks, as well as just getting into towns when you want to keep your guard up. No dire warthogs in town? No problem. And any muggers are going to have a big surprise in store for them.

For maximum fun, start as a non-human Druid like an Elan or Warforged. Now you can be an animated chair with the strength of a tiger.
PhaedrusXY
03-28-07, 03:16 PM noob= brillaint
experince= cant do thatJunior, I've forgotten more about the D&D rules than you'll ever know.
RealSorceror
03-28-07, 04:01 PM I would personally not allow it in my game, simply because it defies all logic and reason, and also because "no".
DorienAenor
03-28-07, 04:53 PM Anyway, despite the human ability to cast spells (so, a Druid don´t need the Natural Spell feat to cast while in the Human form after using Alter Self) I think any Druid wouldn´t waste the Natural Spell feat just because with this combo he can cast spells, we must remember that Wild Shape is one of the most effective ability for spying and withou that feat you can´t cast while in an animal form.
Alyri
03-28-07, 04:56 PM Junior, I've forgotten more about the D&D rules than you'll ever know.

My aren't we impressed with ourselves.

Based on what if any evidence?
RorixBladewing
03-28-07, 05:05 PM Well, not to shove words down Phaedrus's mouth, but it might have had something to do with the immature way you attempted to contribute. Usually, just saying something without any evidence, actually with all evidence against you, is a sign of immaturity.
NineInchNall
03-28-07, 05:14 PM Yet another reason to play an illumian Arcane Hierophant.

I've been meaning to use this precise trick for some time now. :angelhide
tiluvias99
03-28-07, 08:33 PM Huh... and you know something else, a Druid no longer needs to take off and put back on his equipment for it to regain functioning.When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional.Druid Wildshapes into a T-Rex, leaving all of his equipment on, then uses Alter Self to "revert to his true form". Equipment re-appears. Only issue is in the meaning of "new form", which is debateable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 09:41 PM	Ok, if you are a Druid and you got a way to use Alter Self (maybe a potion or a item that can make you cast this spell without a command) and you are wildshaped into a bear, can you use Alter Self to become a human (can talk, and use spells, yadda, yadda, yadda) with the stats of your wild-shaped form? like, 30 str of a Dire Bear? Thanks, See you good folk, Felipe.
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 09:52 PM	OMDG, I don't know druids that well, but I think that is just sick if it works... Good thinking! The way it would best work, that I know, is bark skin armor, it lets you use armor even while in wild shape. Just have th ability to go human-oid in the armor.
StalkerEntreri 03-27-07, 10:04 PM	The way it would best work, that I know, is bark skin armor, it lets you use armor even while in wild shape. Or you could just have the wild ability on the armor
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 10:27 PM	Or you could just have the wild ability on the armor I just read Alter Self. A sound GM would stat that the first sentence would eliminate this as a possibility You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. A GM would state that you could only at this point change into other bears if your Dire Bear.
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 10:41 PM	I just read Alter Self. A sound GM would stat that the first sentence would eliminate this as a possibility A GM would state that you could only at this point change into other bears if your Dire Bear. When you Wild Shape in any animal you still a humanoid (if you are a human, of course) as descripted in the PhB and in it´s Errata, so a human ("You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself") still a valid choice.
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 10:47 PM	When you Wild Shape in any animal you still a humanoid (if you are a human, of course) as descripted in the PhB and in it´s Errata, so a human ("You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself") still a valid choice. NVM your right
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 10:57 PM	NVM?
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 10:59 PM	NVM? I was going to say that your type would change when you wild shape, but it dosn't.
Perseus_Stoned 03-27-07, 11:06 PM	NVM? Nevermind.
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 11:06 PM	I was going to say that your type would change when you wild shape, but it dosn't. Ahhh, ok... yeah, I read a lot before posting, I think that it is too much overpowering a Druid to use this trick, but, by rules, it works. As the PhB errata says, the Wild Shape ability function like Alternate Form (MM) and no matter what form you have changed, you still in your natural type and sub-type, like Dragon, Humanoid, Magical Beast or whatever you are. So, a Dragon that alter his form to a humanoid (most Dragons can assume any humanoid or animal form) still a valid target to spells that only affect Dragon creatures. Maybe anyone that wants to use it could house-rule this and make less overpower, like making the Wild Shaped Druid get in human form but still with the same restrictions that he had while in bear form, so he couldn´t talk and cast spells (he would need the Natural Spell feat for doing so)... but it is completely up to the DM decide what he allow or not.
DorienAenor 03-28-07, 11:47 AM	In fact, Wild Shaping in any animal and after using an Alter Self based item allow you to be a human with the strength of a bear. But it is clear that, if your DM allow it, it´s overpowering the Druids ability. But, mechanically it works. I think if your player wants to have a human with the physical strength of an animal using this trick, ok, he can, but we should start looking at some limits to this Wild Shape + Alter Self combo. Maybe you become a bestial version of a human, with some traits of the animal you Wild Shaped into and still a human form (85% human, 15% animal). As you were an animal before casting Alter Self, the DM would say that you still with your animal limits, you can talk, people will understand you, but you don´t have the same ability to talk that you had before Wild Shaping and complex words can´t be spoken, so you can´t cast spells without the Natural Spell feat. Maybe you get -10 on your diplomacy tests and -4 on your Cha stat. After putting some restrictions, all your player will get is prehensile hands and the look of an human instead of claws and a bear greatness.:D
PhaedrusXY 03-28-07, 11:49 AM	Brilliant!
crimsonwolf 03-28-07, 01:05 PM	noob= brillaint experince= cant do that
IceFractal 03-28-07, 01:17 PM	To the contrary, I find no reason why you can't do that. It's the natural result of all the wildshape errata they've been making - to prevent people from using animal-only buffs, they switch the type and make humanoid-only buffs possible. It's got to be one way or the other. I don't think it's particularly unbalancing - all a humanoid form gives you is the ability to use gear, which you could mostly do anyway if you had the right kind of gear (amulets, slotless items, bracelets, etc), or a supply of Wilding Clasps (which are 3.5 now, in the MIC). In exchange, you give up being Large and having claw and bite attacks, plus your natural armor. So, not a big power-up, but it's excellent for surprise attacks, as well as just getting into towns when you want to keep your guard up. No dire warthogs in town? No problem. And any muggers are going to have a big surprise in store for them. For maximum fun, start as a non-human Druid like an Elan or Warforged. Now you can be an animated chair with the strength of a tiger.
PhaedrusXY 03-28-07, 03:16 PM	noob= brillaint experince= cant do thatJunior, I've forgotten more about the D&D rules than you'll ever know.
RealSorceror 03-28-07, 04:01 PM	I would personally not allow it in my game, simply because it defies all logic and reason, and also because "no".
DorienAenor 03-28-07, 04:53 PM	Anyway, despite the human ability to cast spells (so, a Druid don´t need the Natural Spell feat to cast while in the Human form after using Alter Self) I think any Druid wouldn´t waste the Natural Spell feat just because with this combo he can cast spells, we must remember that Wild Shape is one of the most effective ability for spying and withou that feat you can´t cast while in an animal form.
Alyri 03-28-07, 04:56 PM	Junior, I've forgotten more about the D&D rules than you'll ever know. My aren't we impressed with ourselves. Based on what if any evidence?
RorixBladewing 03-28-07, 05:05 PM	Well, not to shove words down Phaedrus's mouth, but it might have had something to do with the immature way you attempted to contribute. Usually, just saying something without any evidence, actually with all evidence against you, is a sign of immaturity.
NineInchNall 03-28-07, 05:14 PM	Yet another reason to play an illumian Arcane Hierophant. I've been meaning to use this precise trick for some time now. :angelhide
tiluvias99 03-28-07, 08:33 PM	Huh... and you know something else, a Druid no longer needs to take off and put back on his equipment for it to regain functioning.When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional.Druid Wildshapes into a T-Rex, leaving all of his equipment on, then uses Alter Self to "revert to his true form". Equipment re-appears. Only issue is in the meaning of "new form", which is debateable.