A druid tweak [Archive] - Wizards Community

A druid tweak [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PainTrain
05-29-07, 01:18 AM Druid 20 seems to only really be matched by the arcane casters at the higher levels. Unlike the arcane casters however, druids are quite powerful at all levels.

I don't like the idea of nerfing them into oblivion. I like their class abilities but they are quite powerful in comparison to the other core classes.

Right now I'm trying to tame wildshape a bit, here were a few minor changes I'm thinking of implementing as was curious if I could get any feedback.

Druid: Wildshape lasts 10 minutes/druid level, for a max of 200 minutes.
Natural Spell Feat: For the cost of an additional use of wildshape you may freely use spells in your current wildshape form.

Dinosaurs: You may, under no circumstances can you wildshape into a dinosaur, nor may you have a dinosaur animal companion. Additionally, your animal companion must be reasonably selected for the general climate in which the campaign is taking place.

Wildshape Forms: At 5th level druids get the ability, Animal Trance, used in order to learn new wildshape forms. The animal must 1. regard the druid as friendly (see wild empathy), 2. The druid must make a handle animal check DC10+animal HD. This initiates a trance which must continue for 10 uninterrupted rounds, or 1 minute. This is though the druid is casting a spell making all rules for concentration apply. Should the druid fail the handle animal check, or lose concentration during an Animal Trance the animal becomes unfriendly. The animal must be conscious and living for the trance to be initiated. A trance can be initiated with templated animals that are living, however under no circumstances can the template be inherited by the druid as a wildshape form. A druid may initiate an animal trance with his or her animal companion.

New Animal Companion/animal companion death: Upon each level the druid is granted the opportunity to perform a ritual for a new animal companion. A druid can only at any one time have to the ability to do one ritual. Should the animal companion die when the druid does not have the ability to recall a new/different animal companion the ritual can be performed for a new animal companion of the same species as the original. This animal can however be traded in for a different animal companion upon reaching another level.
*This rule had to be implemented or druids could just call new animal companions constantly to get new forms*
Lina_Inverse
05-29-07, 01:20 AM Dinosaurs: You may, under no circumstances can you wildshape into a dinosaur, nor may you have a dinosaur animal companion. Additionally, your animal companion must be reasonably selected for the general climate in which the campaign is taking place.

Why what the hell is the point of this?
It doesn't even make sense.

Wildshape Forms: At 5th level druids get the ability, Animal Trance, used in order to learn new wildshape forms. The animal must 1. regard the druid as friendly (see wild empathy), 2. The druid must make a handle animal check DC10+animal HD. This initiates a trance which must continue for 10 uninterrupted rounds, or 1 minute. This is though the druid is casting a spell making all rules for concentration apply. Should the druid fail the handle animal check, or lose concentration during an Animal Trance the animal becomes unfriendly. The animal must be conscious and living for the trance to be initiated. A trance can be initiated with templated animals that are living, however under no circumstances can the template be inherited by the druid as a wildshape form. A druid may initiate an animal trance with his or her animal companion.

Busy work is just plain unfun, this is just busy work not an actual limitation.

If your actually serious about nerfing druids don't just bring them down to cleric level, at least bring them to wizard level if not psion level, which while overpowered is not outright broken.
PainTrain
05-29-07, 01:24 AM Why what the hell is the point?

If your actually serious about nerfing druids don't just bring them down to cleric level, at least bring them to wizard level.

I can see you didn't read my post, please do not respond, I have no patience for your sort.
DM Zoc
05-29-07, 01:24 AM Just use the shapshifting variant from PHB 2, and enforce that you cannot change into any creature you don't know well (and enforce that as any creature which you haven't specifically encountered, or the animals common to the druid's region of origin).

You can't have a dinosaur unless you've come across dinosaurs somewhere in the world. I personally think it's restrictive to say that a druid native to the valley of dinosaurs cannot have one as a companion.
PainTrain
05-29-07, 01:25 AM Just use the shapshifting variant from PHB 2, and enforce that you cannot change into any creature you don't know well (and enforce that as any creature which you haven't specifically encountered, or the animals common to the druid's region of origin).

You can't have a dinosaur unless you've come across dinosaurs somewhere in the world. I personally think it's restrictive to say that a druid native to the valley of dinosaurs cannot have one as a companion.

thanks, I'll be sure to check that out. Perhaps I was hasty on the dinosaurs, I'll reconsider.
Lina_Inverse
05-29-07, 01:35 AM I can see you didn't read my post, please do not respond, I have no patience for your sort.

I see you are stupid. I like mocking the stupid.

You gave no reason for your changes individually, and don't seem to fully understand there actual effects. They don't actually significantly weaken the druid but instead limit him and provide busy work. You've made two actual power changes, that wildshape lasts 10minutes/level and that natural spell eats up a wildshape use. But then a high level druid overcomes both obstacles by having enough wild shape uses to make them negligible, in the high levels the druid just requires a round to buff and thats the sum change.

The dinosaur change is completely random and pointless. It has no value whatsoever and is internally inconsistent.

The animal trance as stated is just busy work, and not an actual weakening of the druids ability to assume every animal form.

The animal companion change, as you stated does nothing except remove the most obvious method of getting trances. But the second most obvious is, all druid groves will have animals on hand brought from far away lands to let there members trance.
PainTrain
05-29-07, 01:52 AM I see you are stupid. I like mocking the stupid.

You gave no reason for your changes individually, and don't seem to fully understand there actual effects. They don't actually significantly weaken the druid but instead limit him and provide busy work. You've made two actual power changes, that wildshape lasts 10minutes/level and that natural spell eats up a wildshape use. But then a high level druid overcomes both obstacles by having enough wild shape uses to make them negligible, in the high levels the druid just requires a round to buff and thats the sum change.

The dinosaur change is completely random and pointless. It has no value whatsoever and is internally inconsistent.

The animal trance as stated is just busy work, and not an actual weakening of the druids ability to assume every animal form.

The animal companion change, as you stated does nothing except remove the most obvious method of getting trances. But the second most obvious is, all druid groves will have animals on hand brought from far away lands to let there members trance.

Perhaps I am stupid, I won't rule that possibility out. However your rash assessment contains more information about yourself than anything in my post, that would allow me to speculate on your likely overwhelming number of inadequacies.

That aside, and on a more pleasant and more polite note, you're correct, I hadn't considered the possibility of druids doing that. I suppose I was thinking more in terms of the immediate, with a PC oriented framing. I suppose I was trying to take the fluff and formless approach used in the PHB, and make it somewhat more mechanical. Having looked at the shapeshift variant another poster suggested, I think the issue has more or less been resolved.
Lawkeeper
05-29-07, 03:19 AM Calm down guys, you both have been rash and rude in your statements. So, shake your hands and continue talking without insults. ;)

If you want to rule out dinosaurs, do so flavor-wise by saying your world has no dinosaurs alive - at least, none heard from. Rule out other animals as you see fit given the region of origin of the druid, and establish lists of common animals for the region. For nothing excludes the dinosaurs now that the Beast type has been deleted.

Or you could adopt another method : increase the HDs of the dinosaurs, to put them out of reach to the druid.;)
And/or ban the dire animals as unnatural in your world, the result of fell magic which failed to create magical beast.

You could also enforce some taboos on the druid : never eat food that was not hunted or foraged (ie no civilized crops nor meat from domesticated pigs or cows) ; loss of supernatural powers if staying more than 12 hours out of any 24h-period in a small city (or smaller/larger as you see fit), or have wildshape only last for one minute per level in non-natural surroundings (cities & dungeons e.g. - I deem it important to keep the one hour per level for the wilds, for the flavor of a druid flying a long distance in hawk form).

The trick is not to enforce some heavy burden that removes the fun off of the class by asking too much paperwork to track all the abilities.;)
Muktar
05-29-07, 06:11 AM There is one easy way to bring Druids down a notch without making them sucky. Get rid of the feat natural spell. That is how they are able to be best of the classes. Make a druid spend a couple rounds of combat spelling up and you will find out that they are now balanced.
Lawkeeper
05-29-07, 07:50 AM There is one easy way to bring Druids down a notch without making them sucky. Get rid of the feat natural spell. That is how they are able to be best of the classes. Make a druid spend a couple rounds of combat spelling up and you will find out that they are now balanced.
Well, actually that feat only makes them shift first, cast their spells second, instead of cast first, shift second. It's not that bit of a stretch to keep the feat.

BTW, I've checked the deynonychus vs dire wolf vs dire ape vs lion, etc. This "velociraptor" is not much more powerful than those other critters who have an equal CR.
And the T-Rex is a 18HD tank, making it out of reach from any but the most experienced druids. In AC, damage output, speed, etc, it falls behind the equal-CR dire tiger... which is only a 16HD creature, accessible two whole levels earlier. Let's compare : T-Rex has AC 14, bite +20 (3d6+13), Str28/Dex12/Con21 vs the dire tiger's AC 17, 2 claws +20 melee (2d4+8) and bite +14 melee (2d6+4), Str27/Dex15/Con17 ('though Con doesn't matter except for saves). Both easily hit as easily (moreover it's the druid's BAB which matters), with the T-Rex dealing an average of 23.5 points of damage every round, while the Dire Tiger deals 37 damage/round - 57% more, all the while with an AC 3 points higher. The dino has its Swallow Whole (Ex) and huge-sized reach, but the dire tiger form gives its pounce and rake abilities (yeeha, full attack on a charge, plus extra 9-average points of damage for a grand total of 46 !).

As you see, it's not the dinosaurs who put the druids above other classes. It's the dire animals.;)
Treantmonklvl20
05-29-07, 07:53 AM I also recommend the Shapeshift variant from PHII.

Tones down the power of the Druid without making them useless.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PainTrain 05-29-07, 01:18 AM	Druid 20 seems to only really be matched by the arcane casters at the higher levels. Unlike the arcane casters however, druids are quite powerful at all levels. I don't like the idea of nerfing them into oblivion. I like their class abilities but they are quite powerful in comparison to the other core classes. Right now I'm trying to tame wildshape a bit, here were a few minor changes I'm thinking of implementing as was curious if I could get any feedback. Druid: Wildshape lasts 10 minutes/druid level, for a max of 200 minutes. Natural Spell Feat: For the cost of an additional use of wildshape you may freely use spells in your current wildshape form. Dinosaurs: You may, under no circumstances can you wildshape into a dinosaur, nor may you have a dinosaur animal companion. Additionally, your animal companion must be reasonably selected for the general climate in which the campaign is taking place. Wildshape Forms: At 5th level druids get the ability, Animal Trance, used in order to learn new wildshape forms. The animal must 1. regard the druid as friendly (see wild empathy), 2. The druid must make a handle animal check DC10+animal HD. This initiates a trance which must continue for 10 uninterrupted rounds, or 1 minute. This is though the druid is casting a spell making all rules for concentration apply. Should the druid fail the handle animal check, or lose concentration during an Animal Trance the animal becomes unfriendly. The animal must be conscious and living for the trance to be initiated. A trance can be initiated with templated animals that are living, however under no circumstances can the template be inherited by the druid as a wildshape form. A druid may initiate an animal trance with his or her animal companion. New Animal Companion/animal companion death: Upon each level the druid is granted the opportunity to perform a ritual for a new animal companion. A druid can only at any one time have to the ability to do one ritual. Should the animal companion die when the druid does not have the ability to recall a new/different animal companion the ritual can be performed for a new animal companion of the same species as the original. This animal can however be traded in for a different animal companion upon reaching another level. This rule had to be implemented or druids could just call new animal companions constantly to get new forms
Lina_Inverse 05-29-07, 01:20 AM	Dinosaurs: You may, under no circumstances can you wildshape into a dinosaur, nor may you have a dinosaur animal companion. Additionally, your animal companion must be reasonably selected for the general climate in which the campaign is taking place. Why what the hell is the point of this? It doesn't even make sense. Wildshape Forms: At 5th level druids get the ability, Animal Trance, used in order to learn new wildshape forms. The animal must 1. regard the druid as friendly (see wild empathy), 2. The druid must make a handle animal check DC10+animal HD. This initiates a trance which must continue for 10 uninterrupted rounds, or 1 minute. This is though the druid is casting a spell making all rules for concentration apply. Should the druid fail the handle animal check, or lose concentration during an Animal Trance the animal becomes unfriendly. The animal must be conscious and living for the trance to be initiated. A trance can be initiated with templated animals that are living, however under no circumstances can the template be inherited by the druid as a wildshape form. A druid may initiate an animal trance with his or her animal companion. Busy work is just plain unfun, this is just busy work not an actual limitation. If your actually serious about nerfing druids don't just bring them down to cleric level, at least bring them to wizard level if not psion level, which while overpowered is not outright broken.
PainTrain 05-29-07, 01:24 AM	Why what the hell is the point? If your actually serious about nerfing druids don't just bring them down to cleric level, at least bring them to wizard level. I can see you didn't read my post, please do not respond, I have no patience for your sort.
DM Zoc 05-29-07, 01:24 AM	Just use the shapshifting variant from PHB 2, and enforce that you cannot change into any creature you don't know well (and enforce that as any creature which you haven't specifically encountered, or the animals common to the druid's region of origin). You can't have a dinosaur unless you've come across dinosaurs somewhere in the world. I personally think it's restrictive to say that a druid native to the valley of dinosaurs cannot have one as a companion.
PainTrain 05-29-07, 01:25 AM	Just use the shapshifting variant from PHB 2, and enforce that you cannot change into any creature you don't know well (and enforce that as any creature which you haven't specifically encountered, or the animals common to the druid's region of origin). You can't have a dinosaur unless you've come across dinosaurs somewhere in the world. I personally think it's restrictive to say that a druid native to the valley of dinosaurs cannot have one as a companion. thanks, I'll be sure to check that out. Perhaps I was hasty on the dinosaurs, I'll reconsider.
Lina_Inverse 05-29-07, 01:35 AM	I can see you didn't read my post, please do not respond, I have no patience for your sort. I see you are stupid. I like mocking the stupid. You gave no reason for your changes individually, and don't seem to fully understand there actual effects. They don't actually significantly weaken the druid but instead limit him and provide busy work. You've made two actual power changes, that wildshape lasts 10minutes/level and that natural spell eats up a wildshape use. But then a high level druid overcomes both obstacles by having enough wild shape uses to make them negligible, in the high levels the druid just requires a round to buff and thats the sum change. The dinosaur change is completely random and pointless. It has no value whatsoever and is internally inconsistent. The animal trance as stated is just busy work, and not an actual weakening of the druids ability to assume every animal form. The animal companion change, as you stated does nothing except remove the most obvious method of getting trances. But the second most obvious is, all druid groves will have animals on hand brought from far away lands to let there members trance.
PainTrain 05-29-07, 01:52 AM	I see you are stupid. I like mocking the stupid. You gave no reason for your changes individually, and don't seem to fully understand there actual effects. They don't actually significantly weaken the druid but instead limit him and provide busy work. You've made two actual power changes, that wildshape lasts 10minutes/level and that natural spell eats up a wildshape use. But then a high level druid overcomes both obstacles by having enough wild shape uses to make them negligible, in the high levels the druid just requires a round to buff and thats the sum change. The dinosaur change is completely random and pointless. It has no value whatsoever and is internally inconsistent. The animal trance as stated is just busy work, and not an actual weakening of the druids ability to assume every animal form. The animal companion change, as you stated does nothing except remove the most obvious method of getting trances. But the second most obvious is, all druid groves will have animals on hand brought from far away lands to let there members trance. Perhaps I am stupid, I won't rule that possibility out. However your rash assessment contains more information about yourself than anything in my post, that would allow me to speculate on your likely overwhelming number of inadequacies. That aside, and on a more pleasant and more polite note, you're correct, I hadn't considered the possibility of druids doing that. I suppose I was thinking more in terms of the immediate, with a PC oriented framing. I suppose I was trying to take the fluff and formless approach used in the PHB, and make it somewhat more mechanical. Having looked at the shapeshift variant another poster suggested, I think the issue has more or less been resolved.
Lawkeeper 05-29-07, 03:19 AM	Calm down guys, you both have been rash and rude in your statements. So, shake your hands and continue talking without insults. ;) If you want to rule out dinosaurs, do so flavor-wise by saying your world has no dinosaurs alive - at least, none heard from. Rule out other animals as you see fit given the region of origin of the druid, and establish lists of common animals for the region. For nothing excludes the dinosaurs now that the Beast type has been deleted. Or you could adopt another method : increase the HDs of the dinosaurs, to put them out of reach to the druid.;) And/or ban the dire animals as unnatural in your world, the result of fell magic which failed to create magical beast. You could also enforce some taboos on the druid : never eat food that was not hunted or foraged (ie no civilized crops nor meat from domesticated pigs or cows) ; loss of supernatural powers if staying more than 12 hours out of any 24h-period in a small city (or smaller/larger as you see fit), or have wildshape only last for one minute per level in non-natural surroundings (cities & dungeons e.g. - I deem it important to keep the one hour per level for the wilds, for the flavor of a druid flying a long distance in hawk form). The trick is not to enforce some heavy burden that removes the fun off of the class by asking too much paperwork to track all the abilities.;)
Muktar 05-29-07, 06:11 AM	There is one easy way to bring Druids down a notch without making them sucky. Get rid of the feat natural spell. That is how they are able to be best of the classes. Make a druid spend a couple rounds of combat spelling up and you will find out that they are now balanced.
Lawkeeper 05-29-07, 07:50 AM	There is one easy way to bring Druids down a notch without making them sucky. Get rid of the feat natural spell. That is how they are able to be best of the classes. Make a druid spend a couple rounds of combat spelling up and you will find out that they are now balanced. Well, actually that feat only makes them shift first, cast their spells second, instead of cast first, shift second. It's not that bit of a stretch to keep the feat. BTW, I've checked the deynonychus vs dire wolf vs dire ape vs lion, etc. This "velociraptor" is not much more powerful than those other critters who have an equal CR. And the T-Rex is a 18HD tank, making it out of reach from any but the most experienced druids. In AC, damage output, speed, etc, it falls behind the equal-CR dire tiger... which is only a 16HD creature, accessible two whole levels earlier. Let's compare : T-Rex has AC 14, bite +20 (3d6+13), Str28/Dex12/Con21 vs the dire tiger's AC 17, 2 claws +20 melee (2d4+8) and bite +14 melee (2d6+4), Str27/Dex15/Con17 ('though Con doesn't matter except for saves). Both easily hit as easily (moreover it's the druid's BAB which matters), with the T-Rex dealing an average of 23.5 points of damage every round, while the Dire Tiger deals 37 damage/round - 57% more, all the while with an AC 3 points higher. The dino has its Swallow Whole (Ex) and huge-sized reach, but the dire tiger form gives its pounce and rake abilities (yeeha, full attack on a charge, plus extra 9-average points of damage for a grand total of 46 !). As you see, it's not the dinosaurs who put the druids above other classes. It's the dire animals.;)
Treantmonklvl20 05-29-07, 07:53 AM	I also recommend the Shapeshift variant from PHII. Tones down the power of the Druid without making them useless.