A druid without an animal companion [Archive] - Wizards Community

A druid without an animal companion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ithilorien
11-12-03, 01:13 AM Should get what in return?

My group hates how familiars, cohorts, and animal companions get in the way of the flow of combat and would like to phase them out of our games, but a druid's animal companion seems to be a large feature of the class.

What is a balanced substitute for this ability?

A single domain? (restricted to air, animal, earth, fire, plant, water). Two domains?

More spells per day?

More wildshape uses per day?

Any input would be appreciated.
Krynus Ogrebane
11-12-03, 01:16 AM Um... Natural Spell?

HAHAHAHA!!

Just kidding. The class does just fine without them... really.
BlaineTog
11-12-03, 01:20 AM I agree. Druids have the potential to kick more goblin hiney than the fighter w/ wildshape. Animal COmpanion is really only good for flanking :D.

I'm exagerating a bit, but seriously, they are overpowered as it is, and this small loss of power won't kill game balance that much.
Dorian H
11-12-03, 07:49 AM Don't agree. The animal companion is a powerfull feature, a druid leaving it should get somthing powerfull instead.

Like two domains out of seven (elemental domains, animals, plant, sun) and one domain spell per spell level and per day (like the cleric)
Sorxores
11-12-03, 10:27 AM Animal companion is a HUGE feature of the druid so if you take it out, I would suggest a Full BAB like the fighter and even there is not enought:

Full BAB give ONE extra attack with a bonus of 20. A Dire bear give how many extra attack? al lvl 20 a Druid can have 20 HD so the animal with 20 HD give how much attack? If you look in the advance table of the Monster manual 3.0 (I don't have 3.5) it say that animal get a BAB of 3/4 so at 20HD he should get 15/10/5 plus is str or dex, and even in low level a wolf with 2 HD give 2 extra attack (Claw, Bite). SO this way you trade 3 attack for 1.

But I most say that it become balance against DR since Your 20 HD dire tiger use normal attack exept if you use a spell before the fight or buy extra stuff to give him claw and bite +5 to beat to DR of enemies.

The domain, I do not agree with it since you trade melee power for spell so it harder to evaluate. But extra wildshape could be good. Or give ALL extraordinary abilities. I check those abilitie (in 3.0) and if you bane the shapeshifter from Master of the Wild, you gain not "overpower abilitie" here some exemple:

swallow whole of the tendriculos is waker then the finger of death of the wizard

Electricity of the shambeling mount : absorde electric attack and boost Con, cleric energy buffer spell, and endurance (bear endurance) come to the same thing

and if you talk about the animal extraordinary abilite, pounce, scent, low-light vision, darkvision, usefull but it not overpower since IMHO it was the primary use of the wildshape, transforming into animal and being able to use there abilities. The extraordinary abilities become OVERPOWER only when you give the shapeshifter PrC since it can give any mionster power, but the druid wild shape: animal, plant, elemental, it not this powerfull.
polt
11-12-03, 10:54 AM I really dont care how good it is, animal companion is just so damn cool.
eudas
11-12-03, 11:41 AM Originally posted by Ithilorien
Should get what in return?

My group hates how familiars, cohorts, and animal companions get in the way of the flow of combat and would like to phase them out of our games, but a druid's animal companion seems to be a large feature of the class.

What is a balanced substitute for this ability?

A single domain? (restricted to air, animal, earth, fire, plant, water). Two domains?

More spells per day?

More wildshape uses per day?

Any input would be appreciated.

I would say that out of the choices presented above, more wildshape uses per day would be the best choice.

You might give everything in the wildshape progression +1 wildshape/day, and/or give the druid wildshape 1/day a few levels lower, like say level 3.

eudas
BW0222
11-12-03, 12:21 PM >My group hates how familiars, cohorts, and animal companions
>get in the way of the flow of combat and would like to phase
>them out of our games, but a druid's animal companion seems
>to be a large feature of the class.

Humm... I think you would be best to just DM them appropriately and leave it up to the players to know when not to use them.

Familiars?...
I don't know too many people which put their familiars into combat. If you players seem to intent on doing so ...

a) have the familiar refuse the order. (Remember it's an NPC, you control it's actions if you don't think the player is playing them honestly). If I'm a 10 Int cat, I'm not going to go out and shocking grasp an ogre.

b) Just kill one (or injure one) every once and a while. The PC should get the idea that combat isn't the place for rats, owls, or ferrets. (Remember the reach rules also. Cat need to enter someones square to attack it. That's an AoO on the way in and one on the way out.)

For animal companions...

I wouldn't penalize the druid directly. Just play the situation appropriately. Animals (particularly large carnivores) are not accepted in most villages, towns, or cities. Have the druid fined, jailed, or the animal repeatedly run out of town. Animals also have a 1 or 2 Int. Play them that way. Have the tiger chase someones cow, have the dog chase ducks, have the animal refuse to go near bad smells. Animals also don't like being repeately mauled, fireballed, held, etc. With a 2 Int, a tiger just can't understand that defeating the evil witch is worth being lit on fire. Eventually the animal won't want to go into the cave because it knows what that means. Don't make it cheesy, but make it honest. Eventually the druid will have to realize that she'll need to keep the animal some place safe (and not prowling the country-side alone) for certain adventures.

On a long over-land hike the companion will save play time. Guard duty, spot, scent, etc. However, the druid should quickly learn that villages, towns, cities, ferry crossing, ships, and certain dungeons just aren't appropriate to bring an animal along. Now, if the PCs expect something really nasty, then by all means allow the druid to make the preparations to bring his bear along.

Also, remember both the time to gain a companion, and the training time necessary for tricks. Role play each.

For cohorts....

As the DM, you determine which cohort the PC attracts. Role-play where and how the PC gains their cohort, but there is nothing wrong with assigning a non-combat NPC shows up or, someone who isn't max'd cohort level, or someone who isn't a brave person willing to rush into combat, etc. Nothing says a 9th-level paladin PC will gain a 7th-level cohort. She might be assigned a 5th-level cleric/scribe from his church. Such an NPC might be terribly inappropriate for combat, but can still assist PCs in say identifying items, researching, knowledge skills, maps, etc. If the PC doesn't like it, they can dismiss the cohort, take the -2 leadership penalty, and upset her church. A PC might attract a 6th-level fighter innkeeper cohort who is a few years bit past his prime. PCs can expect a free comfortable room, meals, lots of local information, leads on fellow travellers, but not someone willing to stand in front of a charging hill giant. However, when really needed for that big PC assault... he'll might be convinced to get his old battle-axe out of his closet for one last epic fight.

Such cohorts can be great plot hooks for adventures.

Personally, I'd say not to fiddle with the rules if there is an in-game way to role-play things. I've been in home campaign where my druid has gone two levels before having enough time to gain and train a companion. Even then I choose a scout-type, because large animals would be a problem -- lots of boats and city-type adventures. You'd be amazed how well in-game solutions work.

Thanks,

Brett
Thelon Fairblade
11-12-03, 01:36 PM The druid IMC (7th level now) is doing just fine without an animal companion. Even so, she could be way more effective even than she is if she had a flying companion.

Just have druid not use his companion (doesn't want to see it get killed?), except in dire straits. Or as a last recourse (the whole party is down, bleeding in the woods... and the druid's seldom-seen companion arrives to drag them to safety).
dustspiral
11-12-03, 01:56 PM Give wildshape extraordinary abilities again... so I'm a bat without blindsight or a dog w/out smell? What gives?
Zakar
11-12-03, 01:59 PM I would not play a druid if I didn't get my animal companion. It is a core ability of the class. Since, you stated you were going to remove it for the sake of the players, I would ask the druid player first.

To get a cohort you need the leadership feat. The leadership feat requires DM aproval. So, you can just tell them it is too disruptive.

Again, I feel you should be talking with the players first.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ithilorien 11-12-03, 01:13 AM	Should get what in return? My group hates how familiars, cohorts, and animal companions get in the way of the flow of combat and would like to phase them out of our games, but a druid's animal companion seems to be a large feature of the class. What is a balanced substitute for this ability? A single domain? (restricted to air, animal, earth, fire, plant, water). Two domains? More spells per day? More wildshape uses per day? Any input would be appreciated.
Krynus Ogrebane 11-12-03, 01:16 AM	Um... Natural Spell? HAHAHAHA!! Just kidding. The class does just fine without them... really.
BlaineTog 11-12-03, 01:20 AM	I agree. Druids have the potential to kick more goblin hiney than the fighter w/ wildshape. Animal COmpanion is really only good for flanking :D. I'm exagerating a bit, but seriously, they are overpowered as it is, and this small loss of power won't kill game balance that much.
Dorian H 11-12-03, 07:49 AM	Don't agree. The animal companion is a powerfull feature, a druid leaving it should get somthing powerfull instead. Like two domains out of seven (elemental domains, animals, plant, sun) and one domain spell per spell level and per day (like the cleric)
Sorxores 11-12-03, 10:27 AM	Animal companion is a HUGE feature of the druid so if you take it out, I would suggest a Full BAB like the fighter and even there is not enought: Full BAB give ONE extra attack with a bonus of 20. A Dire bear give how many extra attack? al lvl 20 a Druid can have 20 HD so the animal with 20 HD give how much attack? If you look in the advance table of the Monster manual 3.0 (I don't have 3.5) it say that animal get a BAB of 3/4 so at 20HD he should get 15/10/5 plus is str or dex, and even in low level a wolf with 2 HD give 2 extra attack (Claw, Bite). SO this way you trade 3 attack for 1. But I most say that it become balance against DR since Your 20 HD dire tiger use normal attack exept if you use a spell before the fight or buy extra stuff to give him claw and bite +5 to beat to DR of enemies. The domain, I do not agree with it since you trade melee power for spell so it harder to evaluate. But extra wildshape could be good. Or give ALL extraordinary abilities. I check those abilitie (in 3.0) and if you bane the shapeshifter from Master of the Wild, you gain not "overpower abilitie" here some exemple: swallow whole of the tendriculos is waker then the finger of death of the wizard Electricity of the shambeling mount : absorde electric attack and boost Con, cleric energy buffer spell, and endurance (bear endurance) come to the same thing and if you talk about the animal extraordinary abilite, pounce, scent, low-light vision, darkvision, usefull but it not overpower since IMHO it was the primary use of the wildshape, transforming into animal and being able to use there abilities. The extraordinary abilities become OVERPOWER only when you give the shapeshifter PrC since it can give any mionster power, but the druid wild shape: animal, plant, elemental, it not this powerfull.
polt 11-12-03, 10:54 AM	I really dont care how good it is, animal companion is just so damn cool.
eudas 11-12-03, 11:41 AM	Originally posted by Ithilorien Should get what in return? My group hates how familiars, cohorts, and animal companions get in the way of the flow of combat and would like to phase them out of our games, but a druid's animal companion seems to be a large feature of the class. What is a balanced substitute for this ability? A single domain? (restricted to air, animal, earth, fire, plant, water). Two domains? More spells per day? More wildshape uses per day? Any input would be appreciated. I would say that out of the choices presented above, more wildshape uses per day would be the best choice. You might give everything in the wildshape progression +1 wildshape/day, and/or give the druid wildshape 1/day a few levels lower, like say level 3. eudas
BW0222 11-12-03, 12:21 PM	>My group hates how familiars, cohorts, and animal companions >get in the way of the flow of combat and would like to phase >them out of our games, but a druid's animal companion seems >to be a large feature of the class. Humm... I think you would be best to just DM them appropriately and leave it up to the players to know when not to use them. Familiars?... I don't know too many people which put their familiars into combat. If you players seem to intent on doing so ... a) have the familiar refuse the order. (Remember it's an NPC, you control it's actions if you don't think the player is playing them honestly). If I'm a 10 Int cat, I'm not going to go out and shocking grasp an ogre. b) Just kill one (or injure one) every once and a while. The PC should get the idea that combat isn't the place for rats, owls, or ferrets. (Remember the reach rules also. Cat need to enter someones square to attack it. That's an AoO on the way in and one on the way out.) For animal companions... I wouldn't penalize the druid directly. Just play the situation appropriately. Animals (particularly large carnivores) are not accepted in most villages, towns, or cities. Have the druid fined, jailed, or the animal repeatedly run out of town. Animals also have a 1 or 2 Int. Play them that way. Have the tiger chase someones cow, have the dog chase ducks, have the animal refuse to go near bad smells. Animals also don't like being repeately mauled, fireballed, held, etc. With a 2 Int, a tiger just can't understand that defeating the evil witch is worth being lit on fire. Eventually the animal won't want to go into the cave because it knows what that means. Don't make it cheesy, but make it honest. Eventually the druid will have to realize that she'll need to keep the animal some place safe (and not prowling the country-side alone) for certain adventures. On a long over-land hike the companion will save play time. Guard duty, spot, scent, etc. However, the druid should quickly learn that villages, towns, cities, ferry crossing, ships, and certain dungeons just aren't appropriate to bring an animal along. Now, if the PCs expect something really nasty, then by all means allow the druid to make the preparations to bring his bear along. Also, remember both the time to gain a companion, and the training time necessary for tricks. Role play each. For cohorts.... As the DM, you determine which cohort the PC attracts. Role-play where and how the PC gains their cohort, but there is nothing wrong with assigning a non-combat NPC shows up or, someone who isn't max'd cohort level, or someone who isn't a brave person willing to rush into combat, etc. Nothing says a 9th-level paladin PC will gain a 7th-level cohort. She might be assigned a 5th-level cleric/scribe from his church. Such an NPC might be terribly inappropriate for combat, but can still assist PCs in say identifying items, researching, knowledge skills, maps, etc. If the PC doesn't like it, they can dismiss the cohort, take the -2 leadership penalty, and upset her church. A PC might attract a 6th-level fighter innkeeper cohort who is a few years bit past his prime. PCs can expect a free comfortable room, meals, lots of local information, leads on fellow travellers, but not someone willing to stand in front of a charging hill giant. However, when really needed for that big PC assault... he'll might be convinced to get his old battle-axe out of his closet for one last epic fight. Such cohorts can be great plot hooks for adventures. Personally, I'd say not to fiddle with the rules if there is an in-game way to role-play things. I've been in home campaign where my druid has gone two levels before having enough time to gain and train a companion. Even then I choose a scout-type, because large animals would be a problem -- lots of boats and city-type adventures. You'd be amazed how well in-game solutions work. Thanks, Brett
Thelon Fairblade 11-12-03, 01:36 PM	The druid IMC (7th level now) is doing just fine without an animal companion. Even so, she could be way more effective even than she is if she had a flying companion. Just have druid not use his companion (doesn't want to see it get killed?), except in dire straits. Or as a last recourse (the whole party is down, bleeding in the woods... and the druid's seldom-seen companion arrives to drag them to safety).
dustspiral 11-12-03, 01:56 PM	Give wildshape extraordinary abilities again... so I'm a bat without blindsight or a dog w/out smell? What gives?
Zakar 11-12-03, 01:59 PM	I would not play a druid if I didn't get my animal companion. It is a core ability of the class. Since, you stated you were going to remove it for the sake of the players, I would ask the druid player first. To get a cohort you need the leadership feat. The leadership feat requires DM aproval. So, you can just tell them it is too disruptive. Again, I feel you should be talking with the players first.