Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anauroch 07-19-06, 03:11 AM	This concerns the duskblade class feature Arcane Channeling and 1st level spells from his spell list, so I thought I'd post this here... Character: Duskblade 3rd level with Arcane Channeling Spells: Shocking Grasp or another 'touch attack' spell and Blade of Blood Situation: Duskblade casts Blade of Blood as a swift action, then moves up to the opponent and as a standard action attacks and casts shocking grasp. Scenario 1: Attack hits => damage is rolled for weapon attack + Blade of Blood damage, then Shocking Grasp damage is rolled. Correct? Scenario 2: Attack misses => can one 'hold the charge' of both spells? How does this work? If I remember correctly, one can only hold the charge of one spell, correct? And if one casts another, then the charge is gone? I'd be grateful for a short explanation... In my opinion both spells should work, though - otherwise why put Blade of Blood on the Duskblade's spell list if it doesn't work with its major power? Thanks!!
Anauroch 07-19-06, 06:43 PM	... will help, maybe? The 'charge' of Blade of Blood stays 'on' the weapon until a successful hit or the duration expires. The 'charge' of a touch spell such as Shocking Grasp can be held. Normally both of these shouldn't be a problem, but: In the case of Arcane Channeling, the weapon is the medium through which the touch spell is cast and should therefore hold the spell, correct? And if the attack misses, then it would hold two spells which isn't possible according to the rules IIRC... Oh - one other thing... You get a bonus on the touch attack for shocking grasp if your opponent wears metal armor - that doesn't count if cast with Arcane Channeling, right? The spell is resolved after the attack hits - which isn't a touch attack... either both hit or both miss? Can anyone please help? :confused:
WayneTheGame 07-19-06, 06:51 PM	I do not think there is an official ruling.. my group says that the charge disappears when you make the attack, regardless of if you hit or not... but I think the common opinion is that you can hold it if you miss, like any other touch spell.
djbeatboy 07-19-06, 07:32 PM	... will help, maybe? The 'charge' of Blade of Blood stays 'on' the weapon until a successful hit or the duration expires. The 'charge' of a touch spell such as Shocking Grasp can be held. Normally both of these shouldn't be a problem, but: In the case of Arcane Channeling, the weapon is the medium through which the touch spell is cast and should therefore hold the spell, correct? And if the attack misses, then it would hold two spells which isn't possible according to the rules IIRC... Oh - one other thing... You get a bonus on the touch attack for shocking grasp if your opponent wears metal armor - that doesn't count if cast with Arcane Channeling, right? The spell is resolved after the attack hits - which isn't a touch attack... either both hit or both miss? Can anyone please help? :confused: Blade of blade "enchants" the weapon with baleful energy, the shocking grasp is a "channelled" spell, therefore there is no reason that the two can not be held for the duration of the spells as they are two different things. PS.... until there is an errata to say otherwise, if the spell misses, and you are performing the "channelling" as a standard action (ie not more than 1 attack) then it is held until "discharged" or the duration expires. That how MY DM runs it. :D
Tramp4life 07-19-06, 09:06 PM	Blade of blood has a duration, and therefore stays on the blade until discharged or duration ends. Shocking grasp has NO duration (instantaneous), so if you miss, it's gone, just like if you're a wizard and miss the touch attack...
djbeatboy 07-19-06, 09:33 PM	Shocking grasp has NO duration (instantaneous), so if you miss, it's gone, just like if you're a wizard and miss the touch attack... Not correct..... the charge is held until the spell is discharged, by either a successfull attack, you cast another spell or you touch something else.... Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Tramp4life 07-19-06, 10:57 PM	Then what's the point of having a duration on the spells? I will verify using the spell...but I believe it says the spell is lost if you miss... Goos post BTW...
djbeatboy 07-20-06, 01:55 AM	Then what's the point of having a duration on the spells? I will verify using the spell...but I believe it says the spell is lost if you miss... Goos post BTW... Let us know, because the spell description is very lacking in regards to "miss/hold" rules.... However, Chill Touch also has a Duration of Instantaneous, but allows you to hold charges..... so...........? Here's a thought...... Maybe the "Duration:Instantaneous" spell description (in this case) is in relation to the "effect" time, ie the effect (or successful touch if you like...) is Instantaneous, rather than the length of time you can "hold" the spell. What say you?
Anauroch 07-20-06, 09:06 AM	Thanks for the input so far everyone! What I think how it should work according to the rules is the following: Blade of Blood is cast on the weapon and works exactly as stated in the spell description. Separate from this is the Touch Spell matter concerning Arcane Channeling. As a standard action, the duskblade can cast a spell through his weapon - first the damage of the weapon is resolved (ie - it must be a normal hit, no touch attack!) if the attack hits, the spell effect is then resolved. IF the attack fails, then according to the normal rules, the charge should be held (according to the rules concerning this - for a certain number of rounds or until another spell is cast). So I think both spells would stay active... BUT: Does the Touch attack spell stay 'held' on the weapon so that another attack can be launched without having to cast the spell again? Three solutions imo, depending on the DM: (EDITED!) 1. A spell cast via arcane channeling is lost if the attack doesn't hit or 2. It is not lost but can be used once more in an attack as a standard action as per arcane channeling without another casting of it 3. If the attack does not hit, the spell wasn't cast at all What do you think? Number 4 doesn't make sense imo: 4. Spell is not lost, but is 'held' on the other hand - rules apply as per a normal casting of the spell, no way to use it with a weapon attack again - only the touch attack (standard action) Any rules expert online who can comment on this?
Thorak 07-20-06, 03:00 PM	Three solutions imo, depending on the DM: (EDITED!) 1. A spell cast via arcane channeling is lost if the attack doesn't hit or 2. It is not lost but can be used once more in an attack as a standard action as per arcane channeling without another casting of it 3. If the attack does not hit, the spell wasn't cast at all In this case, it's #2. The spell hasn't been discharged, so you're holding the charge, as djbeatboy said. And no, there's no duration limit; you hold the charge indefinitely. You can cast Shocking Grasp and hold it for days.
djbeatboy 07-20-06, 07:06 PM	Three solutions imo, depending on the DM: (EDITED!) 1. A spell cast via arcane channeling is lost if the attack doesn't hit or 2. It is not lost but can be used once more in an attack as a standard action as per arcane channeling without another casting of it 3. If the attack does not hit, the spell wasn't cast at all. In this case, it's #2. The spell hasn't been discharged, so you're holding the charge, as djbeatboy said. And no, there's no duration limit; you hold the charge indefinitely. You can cast Shocking Grasp and hold it for days. I agree with Thorak, it would be solution #2, However... It would only be an "attack" action NOT a standard action for the second/next attack in the following round. The reason that the Arcane Channeling ability is a standard action is because it is allowing you to cast and attack in the same round. Therefore, if the attack missed and the touch spell is held there is no re-casting and you are not re-activating the arcane channeling becasue the spell is still active, it simply becomes a normal attack action. Hope this clarifies.... PS... I'm playing a Half Dragon DB atm and they are SOOOOO FUN!
Tramp4life 07-20-06, 09:28 PM	Awesome ruling...This actually helps the DB and doesn't make missing such a terrible thing. I'll be sure to show my DM this post because he ruled you lost the spell if you missed-- Good questions! :)
-Defiler of Souls- 07-20-06, 09:49 PM	I'm pretty sure casting a spell while holding the charge of a touch spell wastes the charge.
djbeatboy 07-20-06, 09:55 PM	I'm pretty sure casting a spell while holding the charge of a touch spell wastes the charge. Yes, that is right... however you are NOT re/casting another spell! It is the same spell. Awesome ruling...This actually helps the DB and doesn't make missing such a terrible thing. I'll be sure to show my DM this post because he ruled you lost the spell if you missed-- Good questions! Your Welcome..... with no errata and vague write ups it is very difficult to know what is going on.... :D Happy Channeling!
Vashwood 07-20-06, 09:58 PM	Um, just curious to see if anyone else has noticed, but ... do Duskblades even have melee range touch spells on their list, aside from Dispelling Touch? I mean, there's Kelgore's Firebolt, and Seeking Ray, but by strict definition, those are ranged or ranged touch attacks. And aside from those 2, I don't think there's even any more ranged ... so, umm, doesn't that kinda make Arcane Channeling sorta pointless?
djbeatboy 07-20-06, 10:07 PM	Um, just curious to see if anyone else has noticed, but ... do Duskblades even have melee range touch spells on their list, aside from Dispelling Touch? I mean, there's Kelgore's Firebolt, and Seeking Ray, but by strict definition, those are ranged or ranged touch attacks. And aside from those 2, I don't think there's even any more ranged ... so, umm, doesn't that kinda make Arcane Channeling sorta pointless? Are you looking at only the NEW spells listed on pg 98???? Because the complete list of spells for the DB at at the very END of the DB class entry right before the "KNIGHT" class heading on page 24 right AFTER the example character Yele. And to answer the question... yes they do... Have a look at the right page for the FULL list ;)
Vashwood 07-20-06, 10:25 PM	Oh dear, it appears you are right ... too used to the older PHB, with the spell lists grouped right before the spells. ^_^; On the plus side, as a player this makes me a little excited ... my group uses Spellpoints, and Duskblades are full casters with only up to 5th level spells. Meaning, lots of room for metamagic, particularly Fell Animate, combined with Arcane Channeling and maybe Whirlwind Attack with a Spiked Chain for good measure. The result: an attack against everyone within 10 feet, with prolly 5d6 or more damage tagged on the end, and everyone who dies from it becomes a zombie under your control. And I think I could find a way to tag on 5 levels of War Mind for the Sweeping Strike (so I can hit 2 adjacent squares with each attack) without putting it above 20th ...
Thorak 07-20-06, 11:04 PM	Um, just curious to see if anyone else has noticed, but ... do Duskblades even have melee range touch spells on their list, aside from Dispelling Touch? I mean, there's Kelgore's Firebolt, and Seeking Ray, but by strict definition, those are ranged or ranged touch attacks. And aside from those 2, I don't think there's even any more ranged ... so, umm, doesn't that kinda make Arcane Channeling sorta pointless? Chill touch, Shocking Grasp, Dimension Hop, Ghoul Touch, Touch of Idiocy, Dispelling Touch, Vampiric Touch. All melee touch spells on the Duskblade spell list. Which one were you looking at?
Vashwood 07-20-06, 11:08 PM	Nevermind, thought the new spells list was their complete list. For aforementioned combo though, any spell that can kill would work.
Anauroch 07-21-06, 04:29 AM	Chill touch, Shocking Grasp, Dimension Hop, Ghoul Touch, Touch of Idiocy, Dispelling Touch, Vampiric Touch. Wow, never thought of Dimension Hop as an offensive spell... but it can very well be one! Imagine fighting on a bridge above a chasm or a raging river! There's also Touch of Fatigue at 0th level which can be neat - especially if you've run out of other spells... ;) Anyway - what spells do you think are the best? Chill Touch is the only one I wouldn't recommend... only in combat-heavy scenarios it would make sense since the duskblade wouldn't have to use another spell slot to channel, but can continue using it with an attack... Shocking Grasp is nice for the damage... Dimension Hop is versatile... Ghoul Touch and Touch of Idiocy can be really nasty... Vampiric Touch is awesome, too! What combination would you choose? And one more question - would Toxic Weapon, Blade of Blood and Greater Magic Weapon all work together?
Anauroch 07-21-06, 09:15 AM	More and more questions are coming up as I think about it... Since it is directly related to Arcane Channeling I thought I'd also post them here... What about scoring criticals? Let's say I've got a rapier and improved critical... And cast a touch spell into the weapon which normally (delivered via touch) has a crit range of '20'... When do I crit and what damage does the hit deliver? IE: Does the crit range of the rapier count for both the weapon damage and the spell damage? That would be incredible- imagine scoring a crit every fourth time and doubling the shocking grasp damage, too! Ouch! Or does the weapon crit on its normal crit range, but the spell only on a Nat20?
Vashwood 07-21-06, 07:52 PM	Depends on how your DM rules it I'd imagine, but most of the time touch spells crit only one a 20. I'd prolly say that you could crit with your rapier alone on 17-19, but only on a 20 would you also double your spell damage.
Anauroch 07-22-06, 07:43 AM	Yeah, that's how I'd probably handle it, too... but it definitely doesn't sound like something which is promoted by RAW... Anyone have any other idea?
Anauroch 07-23-06, 03:25 AM	As a bump I'll summarize the two questions once more so that no-one has to read the whole thread (this is about a duskblade using Arcane Channeling): What about scoring criticals? Let's say I've got a rapier and improved critical... And cast a touch spell into the weapon which normally (delivered via touch) has a crit range of '20'... When do I crit and what damage does the hit deliver? IE: Does the crit range of the rapier count for both the weapon damage and the spell damage? That would be incredible- imagine scoring a crit every fourth time and doubling the shocking grasp damage, too! Ouch! Or does the weapon crit on its normal crit range, but the spell only on a Nat20? And would Toxic Weapon, Blade of Blood and Greater Magic Weapon all work together? If you want to point out your favorite assortment of Duskblade spells, feel free to do so, too! :)
WayneTheGame 07-23-06, 07:49 AM	Channeled spell damage is not multiplied on a critical hit, as it becomes extra damage dice added to the attack, like Sneak Attack.
Thorak 07-23-06, 02:04 PM	Channeled spell damage is not multiplied on a critical hit, as it becomes extra damage dice added to the attack, like Sneak Attack. The spell damage isn't added to the melee attack. The spell is resolved after the attack, separately. The melee attack only replaces the melee touch attack used to deliver the spell. And yes, you always could punch someone to deliver the spell, and a critical there would critical with the spell as well. This is no different. However, this also means the spell would only crit on a nat 20.
Seeker of Undeath 07-23-06, 05:06 PM	Actually, Wayne has it right. Besides, I'd hate to see the ludicrous damage totals if one did allow crit for both.
djbeatboy 07-23-06, 07:33 PM	However, this also means the spell would only crit on a nat 20. This is what MY DM has rules also, if you roll a natural 20 on a channeled attack, then the attack AND Spell crit. However this is only what MY DM has chossen to do. Until we get an errata.... up to yours to decide.
Thorak 07-23-06, 07:45 PM	Actually, Wayne has it right. Besides, I'd hate to see the ludicrous damage totals if one did allow crit for both. No, actually, he doesn't. The spell isn't adding damage to the attack. It is being delivered by the attack. If you cast Shocking Grasp and touch someone, and roll a nat 20, it does double damage. If you punch them, and roll a nat 20, it does double damage. For the same reason.