A Dwarven Dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Dwarven Dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DwarvenLord77
07-10-07, 10:50 PM I recently got Races of Stone and as I was paging through I saw the Deep Warden's Class feature called Stone Warden. For those who don't know it allows for you to add your constitution modifier to your AC instead of Dexterity.

I had already figured out my character build and it goes something like this:

1: Dwarven Fighter- Feats: Power Attack/Axe focus
2: Dwarven Fighter- Feat: Racial foes
3: Fighter- Feat: Cleave
4: Fighter- Feat: Weapon Spectialization (Dwarven War Axe)
5: Fighter- Dead Level:(
6: Fighter- Feats: Improved Toughness/Dodge
7: Fighter- Again with the Dead level
8: Dwarven Fighter- Feat: Heavy Armor expertise
9: Fighter- Feat: Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven War Axe)
10: Fighter- Feat: Endurance
11: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 1/day
12: Dwarven Defender- Uncanny Dodge, Feats: Improved Critical (Dwarven War Axe)
13: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 2/day
14: Dwarven Defender- Trapsense +1
15: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 3/day, Feat: Great Cleave
16: Dwarven Defender- Damage Reduction 3/-, Improved Uncanny Dodge
17: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 4/day
18: Dwarven Defender- Mobile Defense, Trap Sense +2 Feat: Greater Resilience
19: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 5/day
20: Dwarvend Defender- Damage Reduction 6/-

As you can see I don't really have room for 2 levels of Deepwarden. My DM is very kind (an example is that he allowed improved toughness instead of toughness to qualify as a Dwarven Defender) and said if I switch something else out then I could get it. Obviously it still needs to be balanced but I haven't any idea on what to give up. I don't often use defensive stance but giving it up when it is essentially the point of the prestige class seems wrong (I'm still willing to do it given a good enough reason). I'm also not too attached to Trap sense but surrendering just that is far from balanced. I really want to keep uncanny dodge but I couldn't care less about Improved uncanny dodge.

I have thought long and hard about what to do but I don't have a clue so I come to the more experienced players in hopes of aid.

BTW I don't need people saying there is no reason to go to 10th level fighter because the fighter sucks or anything like that. This is generally the build I want so I would love to avoid any major changes although if there is no other way I will consider it.

Thanks in advance
Genetic
07-10-07, 10:53 PM Well you're going to wind up removing two levels of fighter or two levels of dwarven defender.

Pick one. :)
Neff
07-11-07, 02:00 AM If you replace the fighter levels with Deepwarden, you lose less than if you replaced the dwarven defender levels. An extra 3 points of damage reduction is worth more than a single feat. You'll have to tweak your build a little to put it at its best. Something like:

Fighter 7/Dwarven Defender 3/Deepwarden 2/Fighter 1/Dwarven Defender 7

1 - Fighter - Axe Focus, Power Attack
2 - Fighter - Cleave
3 - Fighter - Endurance
4 - Fighter - Weapon Specialization (dwarven waraxe)
5 - Fighter - Nothing
6 - Fighter - Dodge, Improved Toughness
7 - Fighter - Nothing again
8 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 1/day
9 - Dwarven Defender - Titan Fighting, Uncanny Dodge
10 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 2/day
11 - Deepwarden - Track, Trap Sense +1
12 - Deepwarden - Improved Critical (dwarven waraxe), Stone Warden
13 - Fighter - Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing)
14 - Dwarven Defender - Trap Sense +1
15 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 3/day, Improved Initiative
16 - Dwarven Defender - DR 3/-, Improved Uncanny Dodge
17 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 4/day
18 - Dwarven Defender - Great Cleave, Mobile Defense, Trap Sense +2
19 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 5/day
20 - Dwarven Defender - DR 6/-

The first dwarven fighter sub level is really the only useful one; racial foes and heavy armor expertise aren't worth giving up two feats. The feat changes are entirely just a suggestion from my own perspective (I think Greater Resilience is a waste of a feat).
Felbarren
07-11-07, 02:43 AM Hmm...i agree about the removal of the second level of dwarven fighter, Racial foes is too narrow a benefit...

But Heavy Armor Specialization, plus the two feats Heavy Armor Optimization and Grtr Hvy Opt...you're looking at +3 while in heavy armor, and -3 armor check penalty. For a fullplate wearing class like the DD...its not bad at all a boost. I'd seriously consider adding those two feats in there somewhere.
The_Shaman
07-11-07, 03:12 AM Racial foes is imo not bad, especially if it allows you to take favored power attack - as it is in most ways similar to favored enemy. 2:1 ratio for one-handed weapons? Yes, please :D . Overall, I would say it is a lot more useful than cleave, at least in most cases.
DwarvenLord77
07-11-07, 10:03 AM I'm relatively new to the game. Can you tell me where Titan Fighting and melee weapon mastery are and the ji(y)st (idk) of what they do.

Thanks a bunch to Neff and the rest of you.:D I knew I came to the right place.

Also, is Improved Initiative really worth it? I'm just curious.
The_Shaman
07-11-07, 10:39 AM I don't remember titan fighting, melee weapon mastery is in PHBII. It requires specialization in 1 melee weapon, and gives you +2 to attack and damage with all melee weapons (of that category, iirc), stackable with focus and specialization. I am away from my books at the moment, so don't quote me or anything.
snakeman830
07-11-07, 10:47 AM An extra 3 points of damage reduction is worth more than a single feat.

Actually, it's worth a single Epic feat. It's in the SRD, but I can't remember the name of it right now.
Neff
07-11-07, 12:18 PM I'm relatively new to the game. Can you tell me where Titan Fighting and melee weapon mastery are and the ji(y)st (idk) of what they do.

Thanks a bunch to Neff and the rest of you.:D I knew I came to the right place.

Also, is Improved Initiative really worth it? I'm just curious.

Titan Fighting is from Races of Stone, and it allows you (as a dwarf) to gain your racial dodge bonus against giants against any creature that you target with the Dodge feat that is larger than you (not just giants).

Melee Weapon Mastery is from Players Handbook II, and it gives you a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls with a selected damage type related to a weapon that you have Weapon Focus and Specialization with.

Improved Initiative is really little more than filler. I'm sure there are better feats to take. Maybe dropping this and Great Cleave and taking Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper would be more beneficial.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DwarvenLord77 07-10-07, 10:50 PM	I recently got Races of Stone and as I was paging through I saw the Deep Warden's Class feature called Stone Warden. For those who don't know it allows for you to add your constitution modifier to your AC instead of Dexterity. I had already figured out my character build and it goes something like this: 1: Dwarven Fighter- Feats: Power Attack/Axe focus 2: Dwarven Fighter- Feat: Racial foes 3: Fighter- Feat: Cleave 4: Fighter- Feat: Weapon Spectialization (Dwarven War Axe) 5: Fighter- Dead Level:( 6: Fighter- Feats: Improved Toughness/Dodge 7: Fighter- Again with the Dead level 8: Dwarven Fighter- Feat: Heavy Armor expertise 9: Fighter- Feat: Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven War Axe) 10: Fighter- Feat: Endurance 11: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 1/day 12: Dwarven Defender- Uncanny Dodge, Feats: Improved Critical (Dwarven War Axe) 13: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 2/day 14: Dwarven Defender- Trapsense +1 15: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 3/day, Feat: Great Cleave 16: Dwarven Defender- Damage Reduction 3/-, Improved Uncanny Dodge 17: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 4/day 18: Dwarven Defender- Mobile Defense, Trap Sense +2 Feat: Greater Resilience 19: Dwarven Defender- Defensive Stance 5/day 20: Dwarvend Defender- Damage Reduction 6/- As you can see I don't really have room for 2 levels of Deepwarden. My DM is very kind (an example is that he allowed improved toughness instead of toughness to qualify as a Dwarven Defender) and said if I switch something else out then I could get it. Obviously it still needs to be balanced but I haven't any idea on what to give up. I don't often use defensive stance but giving it up when it is essentially the point of the prestige class seems wrong (I'm still willing to do it given a good enough reason). I'm also not too attached to Trap sense but surrendering just that is far from balanced. I really want to keep uncanny dodge but I couldn't care less about Improved uncanny dodge. I have thought long and hard about what to do but I don't have a clue so I come to the more experienced players in hopes of aid. BTW I don't need people saying there is no reason to go to 10th level fighter because the fighter sucks or anything like that. This is generally the build I want so I would love to avoid any major changes although if there is no other way I will consider it. Thanks in advance
Genetic 07-10-07, 10:53 PM	Well you're going to wind up removing two levels of fighter or two levels of dwarven defender. Pick one. :)
Neff 07-11-07, 02:00 AM	If you replace the fighter levels with Deepwarden, you lose less than if you replaced the dwarven defender levels. An extra 3 points of damage reduction is worth more than a single feat. You'll have to tweak your build a little to put it at its best. Something like: Fighter 7/Dwarven Defender 3/Deepwarden 2/Fighter 1/Dwarven Defender 7 1 - Fighter - Axe Focus, Power Attack 2 - Fighter - Cleave 3 - Fighter - Endurance 4 - Fighter - Weapon Specialization (dwarven waraxe) 5 - Fighter - Nothing 6 - Fighter - Dodge, Improved Toughness 7 - Fighter - Nothing again 8 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 1/day 9 - Dwarven Defender - Titan Fighting, Uncanny Dodge 10 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 2/day 11 - Deepwarden - Track, Trap Sense +1 12 - Deepwarden - Improved Critical (dwarven waraxe), Stone Warden 13 - Fighter - Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing) 14 - Dwarven Defender - Trap Sense +1 15 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 3/day, Improved Initiative 16 - Dwarven Defender - DR 3/-, Improved Uncanny Dodge 17 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 4/day 18 - Dwarven Defender - Great Cleave, Mobile Defense, Trap Sense +2 19 - Dwarven Defender - Defensive Stance 5/day 20 - Dwarven Defender - DR 6/- The first dwarven fighter sub level is really the only useful one; racial foes and heavy armor expertise aren't worth giving up two feats. The feat changes are entirely just a suggestion from my own perspective (I think Greater Resilience is a waste of a feat).
Felbarren 07-11-07, 02:43 AM	Hmm...i agree about the removal of the second level of dwarven fighter, Racial foes is too narrow a benefit... But Heavy Armor Specialization, plus the two feats Heavy Armor Optimization and Grtr Hvy Opt...you're looking at +3 while in heavy armor, and -3 armor check penalty. For a fullplate wearing class like the DD...its not bad at all a boost. I'd seriously consider adding those two feats in there somewhere.
The_Shaman 07-11-07, 03:12 AM	Racial foes is imo not bad, especially if it allows you to take favored power attack - as it is in most ways similar to favored enemy. 2:1 ratio for one-handed weapons? Yes, please :D . Overall, I would say it is a lot more useful than cleave, at least in most cases.
DwarvenLord77 07-11-07, 10:03 AM	I'm relatively new to the game. Can you tell me where Titan Fighting and melee weapon mastery are and the ji(y)st (idk) of what they do. Thanks a bunch to Neff and the rest of you.:D I knew I came to the right place. Also, is Improved Initiative really worth it? I'm just curious.
The_Shaman 07-11-07, 10:39 AM	I don't remember titan fighting, melee weapon mastery is in PHBII. It requires specialization in 1 melee weapon, and gives you +2 to attack and damage with all melee weapons (of that category, iirc), stackable with focus and specialization. I am away from my books at the moment, so don't quote me or anything.
snakeman830 07-11-07, 10:47 AM	An extra 3 points of damage reduction is worth more than a single feat. Actually, it's worth a single Epic feat. It's in the SRD, but I can't remember the name of it right now.
Neff 07-11-07, 12:18 PM	I'm relatively new to the game. Can you tell me where Titan Fighting and melee weapon mastery are and the ji(y)st (idk) of what they do. Thanks a bunch to Neff and the rest of you.:D I knew I came to the right place. Also, is Improved Initiative really worth it? I'm just curious. Titan Fighting is from Races of Stone, and it allows you (as a dwarf) to gain your racial dodge bonus against giants against any creature that you target with the Dodge feat that is larger than you (not just giants). Melee Weapon Mastery is from Players Handbook II, and it gives you a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls with a selected damage type related to a weapon that you have Weapon Focus and Specialization with. Improved Initiative is really little more than filler. I'm sure there are better feats to take. Maybe dropping this and Great Cleave and taking Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper would be more beneficial.